For those who believe GPL-era cars did not get sideways....

Well, I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them being driven by the *masters* in a straight line... http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html --Dave -- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

I dont really think Dan would have wanted his car to be in that situation Dave

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>Well, >I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip >angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them >being driven by the *masters* in a straight line... >http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html >--Dave >-- >Dave Schwabe >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

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>Well, >I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip >angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them >being driven by the *masters* in a straight line... >http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html >--Dave

That looked like more of an 'oops' than a normal driving line... :) Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eh, maybe not... but proof nonetheless! :-) --dave

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> I dont really think Dan would have wanted his car to be in that situation > Dave > >Well, > >I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip > >angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them > >being driven by the *masters* in a straight line... > >http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html > >--Dave > >-- > >Dave Schwabe > >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

But a great picture anyway! ;-) --dave

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> >Well, > >I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip > >angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them > >being driven by the *masters* in a straight line... > >http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html > >--Dave > That looked like more of an 'oops' than a normal driving line... :) > Eldred > __ > Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... > remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

looks like he's smilin to me. : ) Charles Buscher Guru_Hans Team Guru NROS Racing sponsored by Guru *** Systems. http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/67/67brmspense.jpg http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68brm-p126.jpg http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68eagle-t1g.jpg http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/65/65brabrm.jpg

Mosport that year was also incredibly WET.

Yes, Andrew... there are other photos on the AAR page that show the cars in the wet... must have been a HANDFUL!! --Dave > Mosport that year was also incredibly WET. -- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Touch of opposite lock, methinks. Cheers, Paul

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> Well, > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them > being driven by the *masters* in a straight line... > http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html > --Dave > -- > Dave Schwabe > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

No offense, but what has got a slip angle to do with that picture ? Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide, trying to catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly. I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot, but none of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter to negotiate corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as possible. Cheers, Tadej Krevh // If you're sliding, you're out of control > Well, > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP.

Well, the high slip angles of the bias-ply tires are FAR greater than modern radials, meaning you can drive them with larger slides (more sideways) and still retain cornering power.... Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something unintended. But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding. It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides. Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip angles. Take a look at the main menu screen when you start GPL. The one with Sir Jack... his car is DEFINITELY sliding on the entrance to the corner. Ok, you may call it *rotating* the car, *trail braking* or *drifting* but it is still sliding because the tires are not stuck to the road like glue. And there are many other pictures of racers sliding like this... drifting the car on purpose. Go to the gallery at http://gpl.ga-sports.com/ and you will see many cars sliding. And, to quote one of the fastest drivers of the 60s in Trans Am and IndyCars... "If you're in control, you're not going fast enough," Parnelli Jones. :-) Cheers, --Dave

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> No offense, > but what has got a slip angle to do with that picture ? > Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide, > trying to > catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly. > I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot, > but none > of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to > set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter > to negotiate > corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as > possible. > Cheers, > Tadej Krevh > // If you're sliding, you're out of control > > Well, > > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip > > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP.

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

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> Well, the high slip angles of the bias-ply tires are FAR greater than > modern radials, meaning you can drive them with larger slides (more > sideways) and still retain cornering power.... > Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something > unintended. > But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding. > It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides. > Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and > sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip > angles.

(snip) I saw a race at Elkhart Lake in the late '50s. Phil Hill won in a Ferrari sports car and it was obvious that he was sliding just a bit on each turn and that he was driving "on the edge". It was beautiful. Bill Yowell Remove "NOSPAM" to reply

Well, they were sliding through high-speed corners, but still they were trying to slide as little as possible (maybe just when entering the corner to scrub off the speed). Sliding at the apex, or even worst - after apex - is always bad IMO. The proper cornering would be something like : braking, scrubbing off the speed, apexing and accelerating with as little sliding as possible when exiting (I learned that in Mexico with Brabham - 1:45.74). Well, that is only my theory and theory of someone else too (I think it was Doug Arnao that was talking on this topic at the APEX HQ few months back). I could be wrong, sorry if I am. About the main GPL-screen - Jack is definately recovering and not cornering properly. No-one can covnince me that is a proper cornering. When you're sideways like that, you can't brake, you can't accelerate, you just wait the tyres to regain the grip. IMO, *every* opposite-lock situation makes you loose time. Try sliding around Monaco or Mexico and see how fast you can go... :o) Although, I admit that the track vary a lot and for instance at Zandvoort I'm still stuck at 1:23.8x because of my theory ;o) Cheers, Tadej

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> Well, the high slip angles of the bias-ply tires are FAR greater than > modern radials, meaning you can drive them with larger slides (more > sideways) and still retain cornering power.... > Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something > unintended. > But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding. > It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides. > Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and > sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip > angles. > Take a look at the main menu screen when you start GPL. The one with Sir > Jack... his car is DEFINITELY sliding on the entrance to the corner. Ok, > you may call it *rotating* the car, *trail braking* or *drifting* but it > is still sliding because the tires are not stuck to the road like glue. > And there are many other pictures of racers sliding like this... > drifting the car on purpose. Go to the gallery at > http://gpl.ga-sports.com/ > and you will see many cars sliding. > And, to quote one of the fastest drivers of the 60s in Trans Am and > IndyCars... > "If you're in control, you're not going fast enough," Parnelli Jones. > :-) > Cheers, > --Dave > > No offense, > > but what has got a slip angle to do with that picture ? > > Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide, > > trying to > > catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly. > > I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot, > > but none > > of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to > > set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter > > to negotiate > > corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as > > possible. > > Cheers, > > Tadej Krevh > > // If you're sliding, you're out of control > > > Well, > > > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip > > > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. > -- > Dave Schwabe > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Tadeh... I have no problem at all with your theory. It is sound and proven. My point was simply that you could *see* the cars sliding in that era... the slip angles of the bias-plies allowed for more dramatic angles that in modern cars. More proof: http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/67/67brmspense.jpg http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68brm-p126.jpg http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68eagle-t1g.jpg http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/65/65brabrm.jpg I do, however, disagree with Jack's photo... I think he IS scrubbing off speed on corner entry, maybe got in a little too hot. BUT... Sir Jack is the only one that can tell us the *real* story! :-) As for tracks, ok, I see your point on Monaco and Mexico... but Mosport, Zandvoort, Silverstone, Kyalami... they do not punish you as readily for sliding. Especially, like you say, Zandvoort, and Kyalami. I agree 100% that being smooth and tidy was the fast way then, and is the fast way now... My whole point was simply that the cars were more visibly sliding back then, as opposed to now... and no one can convice me otherwise. I'm a stubborn SOB! :-) --Dave

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> Well, they were sliding through high-speed corners, but still they were trying > to slide as little as possible (maybe just when entering the corner to scrub > off the speed). > Sliding at the apex, or even worst - after apex - is always bad IMO. > The proper cornering would be something like : braking, scrubbing off the > speed, > apexing and accelerating with as little sliding as possible when exiting (I > learned that > in Mexico with Brabham - 1:45.74). > Well, that is only my theory and theory of someone else too (I think it was > Doug > Arnao that was talking on this topic at the APEX HQ few months back). > I could be wrong, sorry if I am. > About the main GPL-screen - Jack is definately recovering and not cornering > properly. No-one can covnince me that is a proper cornering. When you're > sideways like that, you can't brake, you can't accelerate, you just wait the > tyres to regain the grip. > IMO, *every* opposite-lock situation makes you loose time. > Try sliding around Monaco or Mexico and see how fast you can go... :o) > Although, I admit that the track vary a lot and for instance at Zandvoort I'm > still stuck at 1:23.8x because of my theory ;o) > Cheers, > Tadej > > Well, the high slip angles of the bias-ply tires are FAR greater than > > modern radials, meaning you can drive them with larger slides (more > > sideways) and still retain cornering power.... > > Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something > > unintended. > > But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding. > > It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides. > > Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and > > sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip > > angles. > > Take a look at the main menu screen when you start GPL. The one with Sir > > Jack... his car is DEFINITELY sliding on the entrance to the corner. Ok, > > you may call it *rotating* the car, *trail braking* or *drifting* but it > > is still sliding because the tires are not stuck to the road like glue. > > And there are many other pictures of racers sliding like this... > > drifting the car on purpose. Go to the gallery at > > http://gpl.ga-sports.com/ > > and you will see many cars sliding. > > And, to quote one of the fastest drivers of the 60s in Trans Am and > > IndyCars... > > "If you're in control, you're not going fast enough," Parnelli Jones. > > :-) > > Cheers, > > --Dave > > > No offense, > > > but what has got a slip angle to do with that picture ? > > > Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide, > > > trying to > > > catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly. > > > I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot, > > > but none > > > of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to > > > set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter > > > to negotiate > > > corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as > > > possible. > > > Cheers, > > > Tadej Krevh > > > // If you're sliding, you're out of control > > > > Well, > > > > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip > > > > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. > > -- > > Dave Schwabe > > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site > > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Hehe.. I know rrevved... my point was just what you saw in practice back in the "good old days." Smoothness counts, but these cars were NOT driven in the same ultra-tidy way as their modern counterparts. -_Dave

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> On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:47:13 -0500, > >Tadeh... I have no problem at all with your theory. It is sound and > >proven. > >My point was simply that you could *see* the cars sliding in that era... > >the slip angles of the bias-plies allowed for more dramatic angles that > >in modern cars. > >More proof: > >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/67/67brmspense.jpg > >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68brm-p126.jpg > >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68eagle-t1g.jpg > >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/65/65brabrm.jpg > I can't understand this whole thread.. :) > Even Can-Am cars, with mega-wide, bias-ply tires would slide > and drift, particularly in slower corners. I have personally > seen them do it, at the time. > These young whippersnappers have problems understanding > the good-ole days.. :) > -- > // rrevved posts from mindspring dot com

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Hi ! I completely agree on the lower statement :o) They were sliding a lot, and they could easily afford it since the limit between slipping and gripping was way wider then it is with today's slicks. Today you have grip, or you don't have grip. It's that simple (like black & white), back then it was all gray ;o) Cheers, Tadej

Hehe... :-) It took a while, but now we are on the same page... see you Saturday at Monaco! :-) --Dave

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> Hi ! > I completely agree on the lower statement :o) > They were sliding a lot, and they could easily afford it since the limit between > slipping and gripping > was way wider then it is with today's slicks. Today you have grip, or you don't have > grip. It's that > simple (like black & white), back then it was all gray ;o) > Cheers, > Tadej > > My whole point was simply that the cars were more visibly sliding back > > then, as opposed to now... and no one can convice me otherwise. I'm a > > stubborn SOB! :-) > > --Dave

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Again, all of you are talking about Monza..._there_ is no overtaking problems usually... In...let's say Watkins Glen it is very difficult to overtake warping backmarker. Easiest way to do it is to move out of the racing line in coming out of the turn and this way giving a lot of room to overtake...you don't have to (and shouldn't)ease throttle much to do this, and do NOT ease throttle if he's already in your slipstream, just move out of the racing line. Don't do this in coming into the turn, then it works just the opposite ways...keep your line and ease throttle if he is _already_ beside you. I think that's the way to do it in general, though every detail in the current situation makes a big difference. The thing that makes it so difficult is that in GPL we have drivers who do even 20-30 seconds slower laptimes and spin all than time. They didn't have this problem back in '67, so that's why I think these "spinners" should give room right away, instead of trying to make things smooth way, if they just don't have skill to do that. Best solution naturally is always to practice more, but they just don't seem to do it...

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>>2) Faster car behind me... lapping me. >I generally follow the same strategy as item 1. If he's faster, then he >can find a way around me. Again, if I decided it's the prudent thing to >do, I'll move over, but only if I feel like it. I certainly don't >overtly block faster drivers, but they'll have to work for the position. >For instance, at Monza with a fast Lotus or Eagle on my butt, I'll come >out of the Parabolica and scoot to the right, but I will NOT slow down. >A properly setup Lotus/Eagle can outrun a Brabham on the Monza front >straight. If they don't make the pass, then they'll have to follow me >around the track again. >It would be REALLY nice if we only got a blue flag (or even a blue flag >with a yellow stripe) if the car behind us is about to lap us. >Otherwise, we shouldn't see a blue flag at all (just my opinion). >>3) Overtaking slower cars... either for position or backmarkers. >You're faster - it's your job to find a way around him. You should NOT >expect him to just go belly up on you and let you by. You should NOT try >passing him in a turn. You caught him for a reason, and that reason was >most probably that he botched up more than one turn. You don't want to >put yourself in a position to let him take you out in a turn. You also >don't want to follow too closely or directly behind him. Analyze his >line (again assuming he will maintain this line throughout the course of >a lap), and find a turn that you can get a good rtun on him. THEN set >yourself up for that turn on the next lap and blast by him on the >subsequent straight.

Hey! I resemble that remark! dave henrie

>The thing that makes it so difficult is that in GPL we have drivers who do >even 20-30 seconds slower laptimes and spin all than time. They didn't have >this problem back in '67, so that's why I think these "spinners" should give >room right away, instead of trying to make things smooth way, if they just >don't have skill to do that. Best solution naturally is always to practice >more, but they just don't seem to do it... Part of the problem online may be the 'adrenaline factor'. I can get AROUND Zandvoort, just not quickly. In one online race, I kept trying to stay with/ahead ot the hotshoes. I ended up in situations where I was over my head. Spun out a lot. It wasn't a matter of practice - I'd done that offline. It was being 10 seconds slower than the drivers ONLINE that made me overdrive the car. Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.