a GREAT USE for the unused screen in GPL!!!

I have seen posts on FFB seats and I have made my own on G-force indicaters.I really dont see a FFB seat as being worth the work to get something like this to market or that it would even be helpfull in giving feedback to the sim.People have posted about FFB brake and gas pedals but I have no clue as to how these would work or if a real car even gives feedback thru the pedals.But I have been thinking again about this feedback many of us are looking for and I think I have really stumbled onto something that just may work.Please respond and tell what you think of this idea since I think it could be worked on and improved. The idea uses the black unused portions of the screen.The top could be used for the front tires while the bottom for the rear.Starting with the front tires,there could be a white line centered in the middle of the top space.This white line will move outwards to both edges in response to how much of the traction circle is being used.Without even concentrating on it this white line extending outwards to the edge of the screen will give great feedback to the grip at the front tires.In a race car you turn the wheel and can feel when traction goes thru the steering.Turn the wheel in GPL and this white line will grow until the edge of grip is reached and the top space will be completly white signalling no more grip available.Say your taking a fast sweeper such as at Spa and your drifting out to the edge,do you turn the wheel more hoping that you still have something left of the traction circle or do you ease off the throttle since your front tires have lost grip.With this indicator,a quick glance will tell you.If its not all the way to the edges then you know you can give some more lock and turn the car but if its at the edge already you know that more lock will not give you more cornering force.When the road drops beneath you in a turn as at Mosport,youll see the line move out to the edge since theres nothingleft of the traction circle.The faster your going the less wheel lock you can give before the fronts wash out and this line will show you exactly that.Start to slow down and as the fronts start to gain more grip the line will move back to center signalling you can add more wheel lock if necessary. Now for the rear wheels it could work like this.When cornering force starts on the rear tires the center line on the bottom opening could move in the direction of the turn.So on a right hander the center line moves left unlike the top line which moves outward from center but in both directions.This would be less of a feedback then the top/front tires graph but it could help in some ways.One of the ways is telling how close to the edge the rears are so you know if you can steer thru with throttle or not.Start to apply throttle when coming out of turns and a quick glance will tell you how close to the edge the rears are. These two things will give more feel to sims until FFB wheels arrive.In areal race car the driver constantly does traction sensing to determine how much grip they have at the front and rear wheels and adjusts his inputs accordingly but we cant do that in sims.I really feel this idea would help out though since a quick glance with ones peripheral vision would give the same feedback that a race car driver feels thru the steering and the seat of his/her pants. Skeeter

I think this would be an excellent addition to any sim. that truly attempts to be a sim. And I wouldn't hold my breath that FFB would be able to give any where near that much information accurately for quite some time. At least none of the current generation software or hardware even comes close. This scale is a terrific way to represent the seat of the pants feel that we will not have for a very, very long time from FFB or virtual reality suits or whatever! Marc.

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:10:07 GMT, "Marc Collins"

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>I think this would be an excellent addition to any sim. that truly attempts >to be a sim. And I wouldn't hold my breath that FFB would be able to give >any where near that much information accurately for quite some time. At >least none of the current generation software or hardware even comes close. >This scale is a terrific way to represent the seat of the pants feel that we >will not have for a very, very long time from FFB or virtual reality suits >or whatever! >Marc.

Ahhh its nice to see someone agree.The scales could be called traction samplers since thats what they would do.There are many turns at the Glen where I would love to have these traction scales. Turn 1 the car understeers heavily and I find myself either adding more lock and still sliding up the track or easing off the throttle when I could of added more lock and MORE throttle.Turn 2 like turn 4 always has me quessing what the balance and the traction of the car is.With these scales at turn2 I would see that my front tires still have some grip left and a quick glance at my rear would let me know if I could steer it thru with throttle.But If I come in too fast I would see that my fronts are already at the edge and that my rears are not and hence any throttle added will cause my fronts to wash out and hit the haybales.Turn4 would be helped alot by these scales also since I am always wondering if I am coming in to hot and will adding more wheel lock let me turn in at the right moment for the second apex or will I have to ease the throttle in order to make it.The top scale would also help out with the problem of adding excess lock.Not only does excess lock wear down the front tires(N3 will scream for this info)but it also causes the problem of sudden oversteer when the fronts hook up again.These scales would be so big and obvious that ones peripheral vision would catch the info and you wouldnt really have to look at them and instead keep your eyes on the action. Skeeter

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>> I have seen posts on FFB seats and I have made my own on G-force >> indicaters.I really dont see a FFB seat as being worth the work to get >> something like this to market or that it would even be helpfull in >> giving feedback to the sim.People have posted about FFB brake and gas >> pedals but I have no clue as to how these would work or if a real car >> even gives feedback thru the pedals.But I have been thinking again >> about this feedback many of us are looking for and I think I have >> really stumbled onto something that just may work.Please respond and >> tell what you think of this idea since I think it could be worked on >> and improved. >> The idea uses the black unused portions of the screen.The top could >> be used for the front tires while the bottom for the rear.Starting >> with the front tires,there could be a white line centered in the >> middle of the top space.This white line will move outwards to both >> edges in response to how much of the traction circle is being >> used.Without even concentrating on it this white line extending >> outwards to the edge of the screen will give great feedback to the >> grip at the front tires.In a race car you turn the wheel and can feel >> when traction goes thru the steering.Turn the wheel in GPL and this >> white line will grow until the edge of grip is reached and the top >> space will be completly white signalling no more grip available.Say >> your taking a fast sweeper such as at Spa and your drifting out to the >> edge,do you turn the wheel more hoping that you still have something >> left of the traction circle or do you ease off the throttle since your >> front tires have lost grip.With this indicator,a quick glance will >> tell you.If its not all the way to the edges then you know you can >> give some more lock and turn the car but if its at the edge already >> you know that more lock will not give you more cornering force.When >> the road drops beneath you in a turn as at Mosport,youll see the line >> move out to the edge since theres nothingleft of the traction >> circle.The faster your going the less wheel lock you can give before >> the fronts wash out and this line will show you exactly that.Start to >> slow down and as the fronts start to gain more grip the line will move >> back to center signalling you can add more wheel lock if necessary. >> Now for the rear wheels it could work like this.When cornering force >> starts on the rear tires the center line on the bottom opening could >> move in the direction of the turn.So on a right hander the center line >> moves left unlike the top line which moves outward from center but in >> both directions.This would be less of a feedback then the top/front >> tires graph but it could help in some ways.One of the ways is telling >> how close to the edge the rears are so you know if you can steer thru >> with throttle or not.Start to apply throttle when coming out of turns >> and a quick glance will tell you how close to the edge the rears are. >> These two things will give more feel to sims until FFB wheels >> arrive.In areal race car the driver constantly does traction sensing >> to determine how much grip they have at the front and rear wheels and >> adjusts his inputs accordingly but we cant do that in sims.I really >> feel this idea would help out though since a quick glance with ones >> peripheral vision would give the same feedback that a race car driver >> feels thru the steering and the seat of his/her pants. >> Skeeter

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:10:07 GMT, "Marc Collins" >I think this would be an excellent addition to any sim. that truly attempts >to be a sim. Except that if it is a proper "sim" you shouldn't be presented with such information on a plate - you have to learn where the limits are, judge how close to them you are and feel your way from there. If the program tells you how close you are and you adjust accordingly then it's a physics simulation. not a driving simulation. Personally I'd like a program to be theoretically ABLE to show that info, so we know it's calculated etc, but I'd hate for it to actually SHOW it. Cheers! John

It never ceases to amaze me why people want to make things more difficult than they need to be. Do you really think that driving a race car on a computer screen sitting in an office chair is somehow a test of one's mettle? The simple reality is that driving sims. can be a lot of fun and a terrific challenge. However, the fun is not increased (for most of us) by hobbling our senses and disabling our abilities to feel and see and hear what we would in a real car. Since there will not be a virtual reality chair or G-force generator for a long time, or if there is, Papy won't support it because it will be toy-like for the first five generations, we should have access to information that helps us drive better and have more fun. I am not aware of any Nascar vehicles that have precise tire temperature read-outs on the dashboard, but I am glad I have them in N2. If I had seat-of-the-pants feedback, I wouldn't need the readings as much, but they would still be useful. That's why today's F1 cars and teams have very advanced telemetry. Should modern F1 get rid of the telemetry and Papy apologise to us all for including information not available to the real Nascar drivers in their Nascar sim.? Or should we be thankful that, in the absence of realistic feedback through our chairs and wheels (now and in the foreseeable future), programmers are sensible enough to provide analogues for those things the real drivers couldn't do without? And thankful that they can be turned on an off with a toggle so that those of you who prefer to drive "blind" can do so? Marc. > On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:10:07 GMT, "Marc Collins" > >I think this would be an excellent addition to any sim. that truly attempts

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> >to be a sim. > Except that if it is a proper "sim" you shouldn't be presented with > such information on a plate - you have to learn where the limits are, > judge how close to them you are and feel your way from there. If the > program tells you how close you are and you adjust accordingly then > it's a physics simulation. not a driving simulation. > Personally I'd like a program to be theoretically ABLE to show that > info, so we know it's calculated etc, but I'd hate for it to actually > SHOW it. > Cheers! > John

% It never ceases to amaze me why people want to make things more difficult % than they need to be. Do you really think that driving a race car on a % computer screen sitting in an office chair is somehow a test of one's % mettle? The simple reality is that driving sims. can be a lot of fun and a % terrific challenge. However, the fun is not increased (for most of us) by % hobbling our senses and disabling our abilities to feel and see and hear % what we would in a real car. Since there will not be a virtual reality % chair or G-force generator for a long time, or if there is, Papy won't % support it because it will be toy-like for the first five generations, we % should have access to information that helps us drive better and have more % fun. <snip> Well I don't think all of us are trying to make things more difficult than they need be. Granted we are only talking about quasi-simulated racing. The argument goes both ways... The programmers should give us with the most "feedback" they can give us. However, I for one am not partial to "artificial" non-ambient types of feedback. But this is for purely esthetic and artistic reasons. I enjoy NASCAR2/GP2/ICR2/GPL etc. for their immersion values. For me adding Speed Racer or Star Wars non-realistic "feedback" detracts from the immersion. Papy has done a fine job of providing G-force cues without resorting to fictional devices. For me the "fun" is learning to drive the sims to the best of my ability using the feedback cues providing by the programmers. I don't really feel that my senses are being hobbled, just because the programmers and designers didn't deem it necessary to have some "fake" means of conveying G-forces. But, then again that is just my own humble opinion. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I agree! For all the "virtual reality" Fanatics it would be nice to have a sim with g-force, speed etc feelings but Gpl or any sim now was not designed for this. FF or not! If you have the need for a truely "virtual reality"experience go buy one of those $100,000 machines & enjoy! Just my opinion... .Cheers. Thom j.

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> <above snipped> > Well I don't think all of us are trying to make things more difficult > than they need be. Granted we are only talking about quasi-simulated > racing. The argument goes both ways... The programmers should give us > with the most "feedback" they can give us. However, I for one am not > partial to "artificial" non-ambient types of feedback. But this is for > purely esthetic and artistic reasons. I enjoy NASCAR2/GP2/ICR2/GPL etc. > for their immersion values. For me adding Speed Racer or Star Wars > non-realistic "feedback" detracts from the immersion. Papy has done a > fine job of providing G-force cues without resorting to fictional > devices. > For me the "fun" is learning to drive the sims to the best of my ability > using the feedback cues providing by the programmers. I don't really > feel that my senses are being hobbled, just because the programmers and > designers didn't deem it necessary to have some "fake" means of conveying > G-forces. But, then again that is just my own humble opinion. > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

n2rif1.vcf < 1K Download

>Except that if it is a proper "sim" you shouldn't be presented with >such information on a plate - you have to learn where the limits are, >judge how close to them you are and feel your way from there. Nonsense - the whole point is that you can't FEEL the limits in a sim, by definition. Given that, providing the FEEL imformation in other ways can only be a good thing. Joe

>Nonsense - the whole point is that you can't FEEL the limits in a sim, >by definition. Given that, providing the FEEL imformation in other >ways can only be a good thing. Nonsense yourself - the "whole point" is that this "FEEL" is already given to us in ways other than the glaringly obvious, such that some level of driving challenge is maintained. It's bad enough in sims that we can find the limit by endless persistence and crashing without the sim actually knocking on the screen and handing you your result on a plate. Do we want ANY kind of challenge from sims? Do we think lack of "feel" is all that stands between us and winning every VROC race? Cheers! John

On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 04:18:03 GMT, "Marc Collins" >It never ceases to amaze me why people want to make things more difficult >than they need to be. Or indeed to willingly give up any suspension of disbelief and plaster graphs, charts and other unnecessary driving aids all over the sky. Looking at the hotlap charts, online and in the group most people seem eminently capable of getting around the track in GPL, so I personally don't see that it is a worthwhile trade off - kill the look and atmosphere and in return we get some unrealistic rapidly changing charts which may or may not help anyone drive more quickly? Okay, we may not all be as fast we think we should be or can be, but then we're not all Michael Schumacher either. We don't have those readouts in GPL but you can still tell which corners of your car are heating up when lapping at Loudon. I would agree though that sometimes compromises are necessary and in any case real-time tyre-temp data capture and display is possible, just not allowed by NASCAR. Such a friction-circle utilisation display wasn't even conceived in 1967, far less able to be displayed. I pesonally doubt it would make any difference to people's driving anyway, since sims already offer artificial cues to replace seat of the pants feel - the cues are just far more subtly implemented than the "bar in the sky" approach, and offer feedback which must be interpreted and acted upon (as in real life) not a digital readout to the nearest 100th of how close to the limit you are. That's driving by numbers, not any simulation of real life. Cheers! John

>Nonsense yourself - the "whole point" is that this "FEEL" is already >given to us in ways I disagree. It would be accurate to say that a VERY small percebtage of "FEEL" is given to us in other ways. The more realistic a sim is, the more infomation it needs to provide to remain drivable [for the vast majority of people]. Joe

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>>Except that if it is a proper "sim" you shouldn't be presented with >>such information on a plate - you have to learn where the limits are, >>judge how close to them you are and feel your way from there. >Nonsense - the whole point is that you can't FEEL the limits in a sim, >by definition. Given that, providing the FEEL imformation in other >ways can only be a good thing.

Regarding Skeeter's idea, I believe people would end up watching the "grip meter" and ignore all other forms of feedback save, perhaps, watching where the car's pointed! A visible friction circle would be too much information, exceeding all forms of feedback even a real-life driver would receive (in real-time, at least). Yes, I agree that sim drivers could use more information to overcome limitations of the PC, but not to the point that a sim becomes a game of keeping white bars as close as possible to defined edges. Martin Nigel Mansell RIP!

I would like to see a bar graph showing how hard the driver is braking like they display on the TV screen for Nascar races displayed on replay only. That way it would not take away from the sim but, would help one find braking points. Does anyone else think this would help make them faster? Don Jacobs

>I disagree. It would be accurate to say that a VERY small percebtage >of "FEEL" is given to us in other ways. The more realistic a sim is, >the more infomation it needs to provide to remain drivable [for the >vast majority of people]. You'll get no dissension from me on that point. There is, however, a difference between providing that information in a manner which is in keeping with both the atmosphere sought and the ideal the sim tries to create, and whacking a pop up picture of the traction circle at the top of the screen (or indeed anywhere on the screen) is most definitely not it. Cockpit movement, yes, Force-feedback, by all means, anything which is in keeping and realistic. An unrealistic kludge, no matter how (arguably) useful it may be, would be horrible. I have no problem getting my ass whupped by Mr. Nash, Mr. Prydden etc because the playing field is level - my driving talent (or lack thereof) is letting me down. I'd hate to it was because someone had learned to read a chart more quickly than me - is that what sims are striving for and what driving is all about? Perhaps inside the new Bosch electronic car control system, but they're not a bundle of fun either, however useful, desirable or functional they outwardly appear. Cheers! John

>You'll get no dissension from me on that point. There is, however, a >difference between providing that information in a manner which is in >keeping with both the atmosphere sought and the ideal the sim tries to >create, and whacking a pop up picture of the traction circle at the >top of the screen (or indeed anywhere on the screen) is most >definitely not it. I see your point. And I don't want their to be *no* challenge at all. What I do want is for the challenge not to be *significantly* harder in the sim than it would be to learn to drive a real car (i.e., due to the lack of sufficient feedback). GPL is no where near this point IMO. That's one reason I think it's a real mistake for Papyrus to omit FF support. Sure, at it's current quality level it would probably just slow down the top 5% of the field, the best hot-lappers. But I bet it would seriously improve the control of the other 95%. Joe

snip > That's one reason I think it's a real mistake for Papyrus to omit FF > support. Sure, at it's current quality level it would probably just > slow down the top 5% of the field, the best hot-lappers. But I bet it > would seriously improve the control of the other 95%. Good point regarding FF in sims. The hot lappers would definitly turn it off, but me and a lot of other guys are looking first of all for the most immersive racing experience. Everytime I experience this in ViperRacing, I droole about having that in GPL... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Except that the FFB in Viper is so pathetic (in terms of realism) that it ruins that game and certainly would ruin GPL. I dream of FFB that actually helps instead of detracting and distracting...that would make GPL a blast, but FFB has a long way to go before it can accomplish that--IMO. Marc.

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> snip > > That's one reason I think it's a real mistake for Papyrus to omit FF > > support. Sure, at it's current quality level it would probably just > > slow down the top 5% of the field, the best hot-lappers. But I bet it > > would seriously improve the control of the other 95%. > Good point regarding FF in sims. The hot lappers would definitly turn it > off, but me and a lot of other guys are looking first of all for the most > immersive racing experience. Everytime I experience this in ViperRacing, > I droole about having that in GPL... > l8er > ronny > -- > How to get rid of censorship in German game releases > <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>Except that the FFB in Viper is so pathetic (in terms of realism) that it >ruins that game and certainly would ruin GPL. Most people disagree with that statement. My Viper times certainly improved with FF. Joe