FF Wheels - Opinions

FWIW I've yet to see one that isn't complete and utter crap, however IHO of those you mention the Microsoft was probably the least awful. It's kind of like asking which horseman of the apocalypse is your favorite... Eric

Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech. I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are they reliable? Or can anyone direct me to a website where they are reviewed and compared. Thanks Terry remove nospam for reply <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> <^> " <^> " " __/\___________

On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:43:17 +0100, "Terry Winstone"

Quoted text (19 lines)

>Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. >Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech. >I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are they >reliable? >Or can anyone direct me to a website where they are reviewed and compared. >Thanks >Terry >remove nospam for reply ><^> <^> <^> <^> <^> > <^> <^> <^> <^> > <^> <^> <^> > " <^> > " > " >__/\___________

Hi Terry, The following is a (slightly edited) quote from a post I wrote earlier regarding the Logitech wheel. I've reused it because my opinions haven't changed much since the original post. Good Luck! I have the Logitech, and I would recommend it. Understanding that the pedals are, easily, the biggest drawback, I never thought they were as horrible as some say. The travel is short, the resistance is light, but man, I've tried a lot of wheels out there, and these pedals, off the shelf, felt as good as any to me. Whoever reviewed them and used the term "almost digital," was exaggerating, close to the point of a lie, IMHO. Also, the Logitech control utility allows for sensitivity adjustment through software. In GPL, I run the brake pedal somewhere near 50% sensitivity, with very nice results. I can mash the brake to just a hint of locking and release, and I do exactly this when driving, repeatedly. I think spring tension could help me here, so I might go for a heavier brake spring. (more below) I really liked the distance of travel of the MS wheel's pedals, but they slipped around on me, and the whole base felt a little "top heavy," for lack of a better description. By this, I mean, if I were to mash the accelerator "vigorously", the base would tip. Not acceptable to me. The downward motion of the Logitech pedals allow me to go ape on the accelerator if I so choose, with no problem. I run decent lap times in GPL, and I feel I have very acceptable control of the accel/brake with the Logitech pedals. In running various Thrustmaster models, and the Saitek FF wheel(especially), it seemed to me that the pedal travel was much shorter and harder to control precisely. Maybe that's just me, everyone else in RAS seems happy with their Thrustmasters, and I know TM makes a decent product, and supports it. The FF of the MS wheel was *much* stronger than the Logitech, but the MS wheel itself - on the uncoated parts - felt too cheaply built; reminiscent of my old Interact V3. (which I still think was a great wheel for $60. :) So, for the price that they are asking for these things, I was not ready to accept a cheap feel. The Logitech is a keeper for me, mainly because the pedal travel is the only complaint I have with it; everything else about the wheel I really do like. The pedal travel was still good enough to not be a deal breaker. The wheel itself has a heavy, quality feel, the paddles are excellent, and the wheel performs flawlessly in everything that I use it for, which is mainly GPL and Viper Racing. It does not work with one of the Papy NASCAR sims that run in DOS mode, but I don't run it. Be aware of it, though. I am actually using the serial port in spite of the USB, purely for the fact that I don't feel like patching Win95 OSR2 to support it, and I really don't want Win98. I have run it on 98 with USB, and either way, I have absolutely no jitters in GPL. None. Lastly (finally!), I have had no problem with the Logitech's stock resistance, but lately, I've been entertaining the idea of heavier springs, just to make sure I'm not missing something good. :) AFAIK, no one has tried the tennis ball trick with these pedals (anyone?), because the springs are easily replaceable with heavier springs. Good Luck! Brett

Nice attitude. I'm sure we can expect FF support from Papyrus real soon.

Quoted text (14 lines)

> FWIW I've yet to see one that isn't complete and utter crap, however IHO > of those you mention the Microsoft was probably the least awful. It's > kind of like asking which horseman of the apocalypse is your favorite... > Eric > > Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. > > Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech. > > I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are > they > > reliable?

-- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

You can get your hands on a refurbished Saitek R4 Force wheel direct from Saitek for $99 US. A lot of people have mixed feelings about the Saitek wheel, but I really like mine -- it's great for Viper Racing, IMO. If you'd like to find out more about the $99 offer and see my full review, go here: http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/sims/saitek/ Enjoy! -- John Bodin On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:43:17 +0100, "Terry Winstone"

Quoted text (19 lines)

>Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. >Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech. >I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are they >reliable? >Or can anyone direct me to a website where they are reviewed and compared. >Thanks >Terry >remove nospam for reply ><^> <^> <^> <^> <^> > <^> <^> <^> <^> > <^> <^> <^> > " <^> > " > " >__/\___________

I have a MSFF wheel, its good for most games, but I find that its slightly notchy, which is a disadvantage in GPL which requires very small movements around centre. The wheel seems to be well made and I have had no problems with it. The biggest advantage to non FF games is the absolute accuracy of the optical sensors over analogue pots. The wheel seems very good with some FF games (Viper Racing being the best at the moment), while not so good in others such as CPR (which just gives arcadey effects IMO ) The pedals have a good range of movement and don't move around. The wheel has 270 degrees of movement (or thereabouts) and I like the paddles on the back though they may not suit someone with small hands, they're a bit far in. Another good point is that you can change from split to combined pedals using the sidewinder software, so there is no messing with the Windows game controllers and moving switches on the hardware, you can also setup each of the buttons on the wheel to do different functions in each game. If I could just eliminate the notchiness (is that a word ?), the wheel would be everything I need, but I feel it's just enough of a problem with GPL to stick with non FF at the moment, or have a non FF for use with GPL. -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 >Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. >Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech. >I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are they >reliable? >Or can anyone direct me to a website where they are reviewed and compared. >Thanks >Terry >remove nospam for reply ><^> <^> <^> <^> <^> > <^> <^> <^> <^> > <^> <^> <^> > " <^> > " > " >__/\___________

> Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. Be sure and "test drive" the wheel if you can. The ergonomics vary widely for me, in terms of how easy it is to grip for long periods, the angle of the wheel's axis to my table, etc. You can also compare how easy it is to inadvertently unplug it (cord arrangement), how easy it is to slide the foot pedals on your carpet, the strength of default centering forces, how easy is it to clamp and unclamp to the desk, and how much rigamarole you have to go through each reboot to calibrate it. After seeing some good and also some rather annoying wheels, these "little" ergonomic issues have become much more important to me than the more obvious ones of button arrangement, etc. -- Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866, Fax: (972)910-8216

I would echo most of what you say about the Logitech wheel. I got one last week and find that the pedals are a weak point, as they seem to be with just about everything else. Force effects seemed to be stronger and improved after I downloaded the latest Profiler software and drivers, compared with what came with the wheel. My solution to the pedal problem is pretty simple--I take my shoes off and use the pedals barefoot. The pedals fit a big toe just fine, and the light springs are then just about right. I've been happy as a clam with them ever since. OK, OK, after you stop laughing, try it and see. <g> BTW, I see now what rrevved has been raving about with the FF in Viper racing. Bad thing is I'm having to learn how to drive in that sim all over again--but I'm loving it! Jerry Morelock < snip>

Time for a pill... :-) >FWIW I've yet to see one that isn't complete and utter crap, however IHO >of those you mention the Microsoft was probably the least awful. It's >kind of like asking which horseman of the apocalypse is your favorite... >Eric

LOL. FWIW, i agree with you Eric. I would much prefer a decent non-ff wheel to any of the current crop of ff models available at the moment. They are poorly designed for the present technology levels, and the build and workmanship of all of them, still leaves a lot to be desired. If Microsoft put out a non-ff version of their optical pick-up wheel, and put a bit more love and care, (see Thomas or ECCI), into it, i would probably look at it, but at the moment the current crop of arcade wigglers doesn't do much for me... Not to mention the software, (or lack of it), implementation of these wiggly things. AT present they act like a deformed ***... Disclaimer: This is my opinion only guys/gals... :-) The future can only look brighter. :-) Cheers, Ron > FWIW I've yet to see one that isn't complete and utter crap, however IHO > of those you mention the Microsoft was probably the least awful. It's > kind of like asking which horseman of the apocalypse is your favorite... > Eric message > > Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. > > Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech. > > I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are > they > > reliable?

I've tried Viper with just about every FF wheel on the market (the only notable exception being the Saitek, but I doubt it would be significantly different). No matter how well implemented FF effects my be, it doesn't change the fact that the wheels themselves just don't feel right. The internal mechanics of these wheels have a LONG way to go as each and everyone I've tried feels very cheap and mechanical (you can actually feel the gears, belts, servos, whatever as you turn). I'll stick with a non-FF wheel until things dramatically improve. Eric

It has nothing to do with Papy, just my personal take on the current crop of FF wheels. Nothing more, nothing less. Eric

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I've tried Viper with just about every FF wheel on the market (the only > notable exception being the Saitek, but I doubt it would be > significantly different). No matter how well implemented FF effects my > be, it doesn't change the fact that the wheels themselves just don't > feel right. The internal mechanics of these wheels have a LONG way to > go as each and everyone I've tried feels very cheap and mechanical (you > can actually feel the gears, belts, servos, whatever as you turn). I'll > stick with a non-FF wheel until things dramatically improve.

Hmm, I could feel the silly *** bands in the TM line as well, didn't make it useless, of course. Well, Sierra has another company (MGI) that knows how to use the current FF wheels to increase immersion... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

The super sensitivity in the steering of GPL is what's wrong, not the wheel. No one drove those '67 cars the way we do in GPL. David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim. >I have a MSFF wheel, its good for most games, but I find that its slightly >notchy, which is a disadvantage in GPL which requires very small movements >around centre.

No? http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html --Dave

Quoted text (12 lines)

> The super sensitivity in the steering of GPL is what's wrong, not the wheel. > No one drove those '67 cars the way we do in GPL. > David G Fisher > GPL is an excellent sim. > >I have a MSFF wheel, its good for most games, but I find that its slightly > >notchy, which is a disadvantage in GPL which requires very small movements > >around centre.

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

> No? > [link lost in import] > --Dave I could find almost any picture of any motorsport with a picture like that. But it doesn't mean that the cars ALWAYS reacted like that. I do like GPL and the ovals have given me good look into N3. Which gives me some good vibes because if you set up the GPL cars properly they don't feel much different than a good N2 car. N3 setups will just put more premium on good setups. I am NOT involved hardly at all in the GPL community, BUT I can say that many people are "Spoiled" by a LOT of the best "Fastlaps" being readily available. You probably will NOT see that with N3 because of NROS. How many people would have given up early without those setups being available? How many people DID quit early because they didn't even know where to look? SHAME in my book. ALL for the silly reason some "Sim" head could think they really are a 1967 F1 driver. But ultimately the question needs to be asked... Is it REALLY realistic or just a game? Is it realistic to have 1 inch ride heights and no bumper? Is it realistic to have a "Chase" view? Is it realistic to be able to drive with a joystick? There are a TON of things that make the game unrealistic. I am just not sure making the game difficult to even drive in a straight line is what will make it "successful" in the long run. When I say these things I am thinking more of N3 and how it can/could relate to GPL since they are using the same physics engine. My background: NROS Pro Division Finalist ([link lost in import] NROS Daytona Race Champion Ranked #6 on NROS with over 1,500 race and 500 wins Team Captain of Team Brickyard ([link lost in import] Team Members Include: Fastkev (NROS Pro Division Champion - Check his picture out at www.nros.com) Superles (Ranked #1 on NROS and NROS Pro Division Member) over 2,000 races and 1,000 wins Bucc (NROS Pro Division Member) BradleyGTP Barnrazn T_Bambergr Some would ask WHY wouldn't I want it to be as difficult as possible? We could EASILY dominate with a tougher game. The reason is because it is NOT better for the long term success of our series and the Sim IMHO. Bill / Amish on TEN

Yes, I agree that the steering in GPL is sensitive, but that is a limit of desktop simulator controllers which only have between 170 and 280 degrees of movement, whereas a real racecar would have (I'm guessing) about 540 degrees ? So we must therefore compensate for it by using non linear steering or speed sensitive steering ( which I think GPL does model at very low speeds to increase steering lock in very tight turns). None of this though describes what I feel while using the MS wheel with it, the actual turning of the motor commutator past the magnets is what is causing the notchy feel, and when I use a non FF wheel I find the steering in GPL very good. Other sims IMO dont seem to be affected as much, maybe because GPL's steering requires so many small inputs, such as a real car does when driven quite hard. I'm not knocking the wheel, it's very good although doesn't seem to suit the style of driving I require for GPL. -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 >The super sensitivity in the steering of GPL is what's wrong, not the wheel. >No one drove those '67 cars the way we do in GPL. >David G Fisher >GPL is an excellent sim.

% The super sensitivity in the steering of GPL is what's wrong, not the wheel. % No one drove those '67 cars the way we do in GPL. % David G Fisher % GPL is an excellent sim. % >I have a MSFF wheel, its good for most games, but I find that its slightly % >notchy, which is a disadvantage in GPL which requires very small movements % >around centre. I beg your pardon. I think I drive my simulated '67 mount like they did in real life. But, then again, I am not one of the super hot shoes of GPL-dom. However, my times are respectable and I almost always finish in the points (and even win a few -- very few). I know that it is your opinion that noone can drive the simulated cars in GPL like they were driven in real life. But, it is my opinion that is possible and that there a quite a few folks out there that do. "There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion." Lord Acton (1834-1902), English historian. Letter, 23 Jan. 1861 (published in Lord Acton and his Circle, Letter 74, ed. by Abbot Gasquet, 1906). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Am considering buying a FF wheel, any observations on relative merits. >Readily available in the UK are Microsoft, Thrustmaster and Logitech. >I would be grateful for any opinions, do they enhance the game, are they >reliable? I'm very happy with the Logitech. The pedals are a bit weak (spring-wise) but the wheel is just superb. It does enhance the driving games that are properly programmed to support FF - but IMO the only game that currently works well is Viper racing. If you don't like that game I wouldn't bother with a FF wheel at this point. Joe

Oh you dirty rotten monster Nazi kitten-killing son of a ... ... just kidding Dave! ;-) Joe

>simple--I take my shoes off and use the pedals barefoot. The pedals fit a >big toe just fine, and the light springs are then just about right. This is a actually good point. If you try and use these pedals with your *foot*, you're leg will get very tired because there's not enough sprint-resistance to hold the weight of your leg. You need to rest your foot on the pedal base and operate the gas with your toes. Joe

>(there you may want an act lab). But try the Logitech on Viper Racing, and >you will be hooked! Agreed. And while it's non-FF software, I also find it works very well with GPL. I believe this is because I am using the Logitech's USB connection, and thus getting very clean/stable wheel position reading. Joe

Also have the Logitech, would buy again. I fell in love with MGPRS2 (patch including). Allotta fun now. Jens

Quoted text (7 lines)

>I'm very happy with the Logitech. The pedals are a bit weak >(spring-wise) but the wheel is just superb. It does enhance the >driving games that are properly programmed to support FF - but IMO the >only game that currently works well is Viper racing. If you don't like >that game I wouldn't bother with a FF wheel at this point. >Joe

--------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

Also have the Logitech, would buy again. I fell in love with MGPRS2 (patch including). Allotta fun now. Jens

Quoted text (7 lines)

>I'm very happy with the Logitech. The pedals are a bit weak >(spring-wise) but the wheel is just superb. It does enhance the >driving games that are properly programmed to support FF - but IMO the >only game that currently works well is Viper racing. If you don't like >that game I wouldn't bother with a FF wheel at this point. >Joe

--------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address