Archive / 1999 / April

Grand Prix Legends... I ESS. YOU. SEE. KAY.

39 posts by 21 people · 01 Apr 1999 - 15 Apr 1999

Newcomer humbled on VROC and advice for slow drivers

A new GPL owner said he had been humbled by the pace on VROC. Veterans reassured him, recommended the stable Coventry with Alison Hine's setups and lots of practice, and suggested a novice league. The thread then debated whether backmarkers should move aside or hold their line and race.

online racing/leaguessetup/driving techniqueGrand Prix Legends

Automated summary.

=Gunslinge 01 Apr 1999#459415

Ergo... Got the retail version.. Did pretty good at the Glen... Thought I would try VROC... I am humbled.. Make me feel like Sylvester the Cat trying to catch Speedy Gun Zolas.. You guys know who you are... I need more practice... You know what else I need? More practice... and 2 blonde beach bunnies... But I'll start with the practice... I don't need any practice for the "bunnies" Any pointers? Sorry to all those drivers that had to swerve around my slow pokey ass... I honestly tried to get out of the way... I even raised my arm like it says to do in the book.. But .... I made many a man swerve into the yonder fence... My apologies.. Think I'll wait until I'm a little better before I shame myself on VROC again... Just curios.. is there any novice guys there? Everyone but me seemed to kick butt... -- -Gunslinger-

Nathan Won 01 Apr 1999#459416

> Just curios.. is there any novice guys there? Everyone but me seemed > to kick butt... Not to worry, you're not alone. I've been driving this thing for months now and i'm still not any good. Guess I wasn't cut out to be a race car driver in 1967. :-( Nathan

Joe McGinn 01 Apr 1999#459417

>Just curios.. is there any novice guys there? Everyone but me seemed >to kick butt... I'm really slow. Like you I just try to stay out of the way. But I don't have time to race very often. Joe

Tony Kloosterman 01 Apr 1999#459418

Gunslinger, don't worry about it. Everyone has to start some where. As long as you're sourteous and move over most of the fast guys will worry about the passing bit. If you want to race privately to get practice e-mail me and I'll help you out. Tony

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> Ergo... Got the retail version.. > Did pretty good at the Glen... > Thought I would try VROC... > I am humbled.. > Make me feel like Sylvester the Cat trying to catch Speedy Gun Zolas.. > You guys know who you are... > I need more practice... > You know what else I need? > More practice... > and 2 blonde beach bunnies... > But I'll start with the practice... > I don't need any practice for the "bunnies" > Any pointers? > Sorry to all those drivers that had to swerve around my slow pokey > ass... I honestly tried to get out of the way... I even raised my arm > like it says to do in the book.. > But .... I made many a man swerve into the yonder fence... > My apologies.. > Think I'll wait until I'm a little better before I shame myself on > VROC again... > Just curios.. is there any novice guys there? Everyone but me seemed > to kick butt... > -- > -Gunslinger-

Paul Jone 01 Apr 1999#459419

Hi, I don't know if you are who I think you are - the guy on VROC last night then don't be disheartened. We have all been there. Nobody except the real "naturals" leaps straight into one of these fuel tanks on wheels and does a 1:28 at Monza or a 1:04 at the Glen at the first attempt, and most of us will never do those times anyway. Here are a few very basic tips: 1) Concentrate on Monza only until you can do 1:33 there - it's the easiest track since it only has 4 corners of consequence and has no blind corners or elevation changes. Avoid Monaco and Nurburgring for a good long while - these are very difficult tracks. 2) Read 4 wheel drift - but ignore the practice at the Glen until you feel happy at Monza. Watkins Glen is a difficult track with some of the hardest corners in the '67 season. 3) Try to get a good exit speed from the corners rather than a good entry speed. Slow in, fast out. Brake earlier than the fast guys so that you are confident of getting round in one piece. After a while you can work on later and later braking but put that aside for now. 4) Download and study some hotlaps from Schubi's site http://216.13.117.36/~schubi/index.htm - see what gears the fast guys use. Copy them. 5) Start on the Coventry (Cooper) and not the Eagle, Lotus or Ferrari (these cars are fast but hard to drive). Get Alison Hine's Coventry setups from http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison/gpl/ - these excellant setups produce a car that behaves itself and communicates to the driver. The Eagle, Lotus and Ferrari are fast but frisky and need a firm hand - as a novice, you will probably get better times in the Cov. Anyway put Ian Lake or his ilk in a Cov against moderate drivers like myself in Eagles or Lotuses and they'll win everytime - so it's as much down to pilot as the car. 6) Practice, practice and practice some more. 7) Few people on VROC mind a slow driver per se. What many people find trying is people who do not follow the basic online etiquette. Don't bother with putting your arm up - most of us won't see that and it will make it harder for you control the car - there are enough things to cope with without all those signals. At the start take care that all your motion is in a straight line - if you wiggle you can start multiple pile ups. Also don't try and gain places off the start grid until you're a bit better. Also be especially aware of drivers around you and be able to react when they slew about. Don't try to hard to overtake people until lap on the short circuits. Tyres are cold and there are generally a lot of people around. As a novice, just try to hold your position. Pay attention to the blue flag - if you see it it is for you - move off the line when conveniant to let someone pass. Also concentrate on your mirrors. The guy lapping you may be have moved off line to pass and if you then move off line - bang. Last night, you were apologetic when you caused accidents and people repond to that. You tried not to cause accidents and people like that too. What you have to work at is not causing them and this is mainly down to skill. However remember that this is racing and even the best drivers are often in the wrong when incidents happen. 8) You seemed to have a good connection - cable modem or ADSL, as I recall - why not put a "Rookies only" comment in your VROC race setup. There are lots of other novices and you will have a blast racing them rather than against people who are much faster than you. Most people will be attracted to your race if you don't say "novices only" as everyone likes a good host. 9) When you can do a steady 1:34 at Monza - I would think about racing at a non-rookies level. The 1:28ers won't be lapping you on a Novice race provided that you don't crash out. 10) Enjoy it - it's only for fun after all. Hope this all helps, Cheers, Paul

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Tadej Krev 01 Apr 1999#459420

In general, the guys racing on VROC are pretty good (70% of them can run sub 1:10 anyway). I would advise you to nail the track before going on-line. You should know the baking points and the limits of the track before going online. Not many fast guys like backmarkers not being able to make a room for a 1 lap pass (I had few occasions when a backmarker just couldn't keep the car straight in Monza. Now add some warping and I was stuck on his tail for 2 laps until he spun into the fence and I could safely go past - and that was Monza). Make some 200 laps <g> around Glen and then try online again. You'll also have more statisfaction if you'll be fighting for positions rather then fighting your car and keep looking into your mirrors for faster guys coming on you... :o) Tadej

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Paul Jone 01 Apr 1999#459421

One thing you might think about is a novice racing club. Online racing is so much more fun that hotlapping or racing the AI. You have a good connection so you could host it. If you advertised it here you would get loads of takers and all those people who are too scared to go online against the faster racers would happily join you. Pretty soon you'd find it isn't a novice club at all as you all start to get fast. Cheers, Paul

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> Hi, > I don't know if you are who I think you are - the guy on VROC last night > then don't be disheartened. We have all been there. Nobody except the real > "naturals" leaps straight into one of these fuel tanks on wheels and does > a 1:28 at Monza or a 1:04 at the Glen at the first attempt, and most of us > will never do those times anyway. > Here are a few very basic tips: > 1) Concentrate on Monza only until you can do 1:33 there - it's the > easiest track since it only has 4 corners of consequence and has no blind > corners or elevation changes. Avoid Monaco and Nurburgring for a good long > while - these are very difficult tracks. > 2) Read 4 wheel drift - but ignore the practice at the Glen until you feel > happy at Monza. Watkins Glen is a difficult track with some of the hardest > corners in the '67 season. > 3) Try to get a good exit speed from the corners rather than a good entry > speed. Slow in, fast out. Brake earlier than the fast guys so that you are > confident of getting round in one piece. After a while you can work on > later and later braking but put that aside for now. > 4) Download and study some hotlaps from Schubi's site > http://216.13.117.36/~schubi/index.htm - see what gears the fast guys use. > Copy them. > 5) Start on the Coventry (Cooper) and not the Eagle, Lotus or Ferrari > (these cars are fast but hard to drive). Get Alison Hine's Coventry setups > from http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison/gpl/ - these excellant setups > produce a car that behaves itself and communicates to the driver. The > Eagle, Lotus and Ferrari are fast but frisky and need a firm hand - as a > novice, you will probably get better times in the Cov. Anyway put Ian Lake > or his ilk in a Cov against moderate drivers like myself in Eagles or > Lotuses and they'll win everytime - so it's as much down to pilot as the > car. > 6) Practice, practice and practice some more. > 7) Few people on VROC mind a slow driver per se. What many people find > trying is people who do not follow the basic online etiquette. Don't > bother with putting your arm up - most of us won't see that and it will > make it harder for you control the car - there are enough things to cope > with without all those signals. At the start take care that all your > motion is in a straight line - if you wiggle you can start multiple pile > ups. Also don't try and gain places off the start grid until you're a bit > better. Also be especially aware of drivers around you and be able to > react when they slew about. Don't try to hard to overtake people until lap > on the short circuits. Tyres are cold and there are generally a lot of > people around. As a novice, just try to hold your position. Pay attention > to the blue flag - if you see it it is for you - move off the line when > conveniant to let someone pass. Also concentrate on your mirrors. The guy > lapping you may be have moved off line to pass and if you then move off > line - bang. Last night, you were apologetic when you caused accidents and > people repond to that. You tried not to cause accidents and people like > that too. What you have to work at is not causing them and this is mainly > down to skill. However remember that this is racing and even the best > drivers are often in the wrong when incidents happen. > 8) You seemed to have a good connection - cable modem or ADSL, as I recall > - why not put a "Rookies only" comment in your VROC race setup. There are > lots of other novices and you will have a blast racing them rather than > against people who are much faster than you. Most people will be attracted > to your race if you don't say "novices only" as everyone likes a good > host. > 9) When you can do a steady 1:34 at Monza - I would think about racing at > a non-rookies level. The 1:28ers won't be lapping you on a Novice race > provided that you don't crash out. > 10) Enjoy it - it's only for fun after all. > Hope this all helps, > Cheers, > Paul > > Ergo... Got the retail version.. > > Did pretty good at the Glen... > > Thought I would try VROC... > > I am humbled.. > > Make me feel like Sylvester the Cat trying to catch Speedy Gun Zolas.. > > You guys know who you are... > > I need more practice... > > You know what else I need? > > More practice... > > and 2 blonde beach bunnies... > > But I'll start with the practice... > > I don't need any practice for the "bunnies" > > Any pointers? > > Sorry to all those drivers that had to swerve around my slow pokey > > ass... I honestly tried to get out of the way... I even raised my arm > > like it says to do in the book.. > > But .... I made many a man swerve into the yonder fence... > > My apologies.. > > Think I'll wait until I'm a little better before I shame myself on > > VROC again... > > Just curios.. is there any novice guys there? Everyone but me seemed > > to kick butt... > > -- > > -Gunslinger-

=Gunslinge 01 Apr 1999#459422

On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:18:03 +0100, Paul Jones >Hi, >I don't know if you are who I think you are - the guy on VROC last night >then don't be disheartened. We have all been there. Nobody except the real >"naturals" leaps straight into one of these fuel tanks on wheels and does >a 1:28 at Monza or a 1:04 at the Glen at the first attempt, and most of us >will never do those times anyway. <SNIP> Yeah that was me last night. Thanks for all the help. I'll take your advice as well as others. Thanks again. I did find one problem to my slow speeds, I had a CH Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pedals hooked up. For some reason i wasn't getting full gas and brake. I disconnect my throttle and Fighterstick, and plugged a TM Top Gun into the Pedals.. Now I get great engine roar. -- -Gunslinger-

5th Docto 01 Apr 1999#459423

well, here's my $.02 worth. like someone else noted, NO-ONE did a 1:28 their first lap at Monza. Everyone needs to practice allot before we may do those times. My suggestions... Use the Coventry with Ali Hine setups. This combo is easier to learn with. Use the training mode in GPL, and put enough fuel in for 11 laps at Monza, then go out and do slow laps. Like 1:40's. Just to get the feel of the car, try different braking points, throttle points, jerk the steering wheel back and forth, just to get the feel of how and when the car will respond. During this process, you should learn how the car reacts when the tires are cold, warm and hot. These should feel very different, and you wont be "surprised" when you need to alter your path during a race. Also, as your lap times approach 1:32 or so, try changing your lines while lapping. like going into Curva Granda high and coming out low. If you can do this, your good enough challenge anybody on VROC. Your right. It takes lots of practice if you want to do well. But sooner than you think, others will be pulling over for you. the 5th Doctor Ergo... Got the retail version.. Did pretty good at the Glen... Thought I would try VROC... I am humbled.. Make me feel like Sylvester the Cat trying to catch Speedy Gun Zolas.. You guys know who you are... I need more practice... You know what else I need? More practice... and 2 blonde beach bunnies... But I'll start with the practice... I don't need any practice for the "bunnies" Any pointers? -Gunslinger-

schwab 01 Apr 1999#459424

Well Gunny... think about it. The Glen was THE demo track for a long time... so all real "GPL-heads" had the demo and lapped the HELL out of the Glen before the full version came out. They had seat time and setups. You can't expect to walk in from the outside, never having *sat* in a 67 F1 car before and see a relatively new track... and be instantly competitive. People have a lot more miles than you... Try practicing a bit.. If you can find a setup and comfort zone to get you into the 1:07-1:09 range consistently, you will be just fine. The fast guys will still be faster, but you will have plenty of competition. Well, as you are finding out, the learning curve is a steep one. I'm sure you encoutered plenty of flight sims that were the same way. Just don't give up on it and you WILL be rewarded! :-) --dave

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-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

P Gagg 01 Apr 1999#459425

There is no secret, no cheat, no quick fix and no shortcut to getting good/fast at GPL. (I should know I've had this this thing since the day after the first demo came out, and I'm still struggling to be consistently fast, but I still love the challenge!) The pointers you are after are these: - Practice, practice, and then practice some more. Boring I know, but it is the *ONLY* way to learn how to drive these cars properly. Forget everything you ever learned in any other sim/game, With GPL you start at the bottom and work your way up from scratch. We all have, even the World record holders with the fastest laps, we all know what it feels like to continually throw the thing off the road, but practice *DOES* make perfect (well nearly anyway!) - Start on the easier tracks, (Monza) and in an easier car (Coventry) d/l some set-ups and fast replays from the net, look and learn, and get in as much practice as you possibly can. - By all means drive on vroc, doesn't matter how slow you may be, just be considerate to all the other faster (and slower?) drivers who are on the track with you, and no-one will mind your laptimes. - Smooth = fast. Try to gradually increase your laptimes slowly, just concentrae on keeping the car on the road and in a straight line (except when going around corners of course!) you will *NOT* break any world records at first! just concentrate on beating your *own* best times, and the laptimes will come down faster than you think? - Have fun..... 8-) *Peter* #:-)

Bubb 01 Apr 1999#459426

I may not be speaking for anyone else but me when I say this BUT: I like it when there are fast guys, medium guys AND beginners (slow guys) all in the same race! I consider myself a "medium" guy. Last night I was in an 11 lap Monza and I turned 10 laps of 1:30's. I finished 3rd. Most of the time, when in a race with the 1:28 guys, I finish in the top 10. To me what makes it fun in a race where all skills are present, is that most of the time I'll find someone to "race for position". That's usually an indication that I have found someone in the race that is close to my ability. So, even though I love to win (and have a few times), I can have a LARGE time just racing SOMEBODY. Also, if, while "racing for position" a slower car is ahead, it makes it that much more interesting to try and get around him. Nothing is more fun to me than to negotiate a pass. Like an earlier post stated, just keep your line when the faster cars are approaching and they'll get by you. 99 percent of the fast guys I have raced against will respect you if you do that. If you run Monza enough, and you are like me (I LOVE FAST TRACKS), you eventually learn where the preferred racing groove is. Then, when faster cars are coming, try to stay out of the racing groove as much as possible. Have fun! -Gary

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>Ergo... Got the retail version.. >Did pretty good at the Glen... >Thought I would try VROC... >I am humbled.. >Make me feel like Sylvester the Cat trying to catch Speedy Gun Zolas.. >You guys know who you are... >I need more practice... >You know what else I need? >More practice... >and 2 blonde beach bunnies... >But I'll start with the practice... >I don't need any practice for the "bunnies" >Any pointers? >Sorry to all those drivers that had to swerve around my slow pokey >ass... I honestly tried to get out of the way... I even raised my arm >like it says to do in the book.. >But .... I made many a man swerve into the yonder fence... >My apologies..=20 >Think I'll wait until I'm a little better before I shame myself on >VROC again... >Just curios.. is there any novice guys there? Everyone but me seemed >to kick butt... >-- >-Gunslinger-

schwab 01 Apr 1999#459427

Yep, I agree Gary... on basically all points. The only one to expand on is for slower folks to stay on the line, like you say, but don't try to outbrake a much faster car going into a turn... it only spells trouble for both of you. But yes, a mix is nice, because you have good racing (generally) all over the circuit. -_Dave

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> I may not be speaking for anyone else but me when I say this BUT: > I like it when there are fast guys, medium guys AND beginners (slow > guys) all in the same race! > I consider myself a "medium" guy. Last night I was in an 11 lap Monza > and I turned 10 laps of 1:30's. I finished 3rd. Most of the time, when > in a race with the 1:28 guys, I finish in the top 10. > To me what makes it fun in a race where all skills are present, is > that most of the time I'll find someone to "race for position". That's > usually an indication that I have found someone in the race that is > close to my ability. So, even though I love to win (and have a few > times), I can have a LARGE time just racing SOMEBODY. > Also, if, while "racing for position" a slower car is ahead, it makes > it that much more interesting to try and get around him. Nothing is > more fun to me than to negotiate a pass. > Like an earlier post stated, just keep your line when the faster cars > are approaching and they'll get by you. 99 percent of the fast guys I > have raced against will respect you if you do that. > If you run Monza enough, and you are like me (I LOVE FAST TRACKS), you > eventually learn where the preferred racing groove is. Then, when > faster cars are coming, try to stay out of the racing groove as much > as possible. > Have fun! > -Gary > >Ergo... Got the retail version.. > >Did pretty good at the Glen... > >Thought I would try VROC... > >I am humbled.. > >Make me feel like Sylvester the Cat trying to catch Speedy Gun Zolas.. > >You guys know who you are... > >I need more practice... > >You know what else I need? > >More practice... > >and 2 blonde beach bunnies... > >But I'll start with the practice... > >I don't need any practice for the "bunnies" > >Any pointers? > >Sorry to all those drivers that had to swerve around my slow pokey > >ass... I honestly tried to get out of the way... I even raised my arm > >like it says to do in the book.. > >But .... I made many a man swerve into the yonder fence... > >My apologies..=20 > >Think I'll wait until I'm a little better before I shame myself on > >VROC again... > >Just curios.. is there any novice guys there? Everyone but me seemed > >to kick butt... > >-- > >-Gunslinger-

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Joe McGinn 01 Apr 1999#459428

>5) Start on the Coventry (Cooper) and not the Eagle, Lotus or Ferrari >(these cars are fast but hard to drive). Get Alison Hine's Coventry setups >from http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison/gpl/ - these excellant setups >produce a car that behaves itself and communicates to the driver. Thanks Paul! Jeez, why didn't someone tell me this months ago? Just tried the Coventry (with Alison's setups) and beat my best Glen time by over a second within five laps. Forget the "you just have to practice" or "learn how to make setups" lines. When GPL newbies like me come in here crying for help/relief, just point them to the Coventry with Alison's setups. FINALLY and for the first time I have a stable GPL car to drive. What a difference! Joe

David Ewing 01 Apr 1999#459429

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> Jeez, why didn't someone tell me this months ago? Just tried the > Coventry (with Alison's setups) and beat my best Glen time by over a > second within five laps. > Forget the "you just have to practice" or "learn how to make setups" > lines. When GPL newbies like me come in here crying for help/relief, > just point them to the Coventry with Alison's setups. FINALLY and for > the first time I have a stable GPL car to drive. What a difference!

And if you want to go even faster and still have a very drivable car, use Alison's Coventry setups on the Lotus. To do this, copy the setup in Explorer (right click copy in place). You'll get a file named something like "Copy of Ali Cov Monza.co1". The "co" part of the extension stands for "Coventry". Rename the file anything you like, but make sure the extension is changed to "lo1" (that last character is a one). You now have a new Lotus setup. You'll need to tweak the gear ratios since the engines are very different. The easiest way to do that is just to write down the gear ratios of the default Lotus setup for the track, and change your new setup to those values. Voila! You have a well handling car that is pretty damn fast! Dave Ewing

David Karr 01 Apr 1999#459430

You might also wish to try Alison's Murasata and BRM setups, both of which--like the Coventry setups--are also very stable, especially the BRM. DK

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>>5) Start on the Coventry (Cooper) and not the Eagle, Lotus or Ferrari >>(these cars are fast but hard to drive). Get Alison Hine's Coventry setups >>from http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison/gpl/ - these excellant setups >>produce a car that behaves itself and communicates to the driver. >Thanks Paul! >Jeez, why didn't someone tell me this months ago? Just tried the >Coventry (with Alison's setups) and beat my best Glen time by over a >second within five laps. >Forget the "you just have to practice" or "learn how to make setups" >lines. When GPL newbies like me come in here crying for help/relief, >just point them to the Coventry with Alison's setups. FINALLY and for >the first time I have a stable GPL car to drive. What a difference! >Joe

Tadej Krev 02 Apr 1999#459650

Hi ! What I would suggest (add to what Paul just wrote) to novices is to keep their normal racing line and not to move off the line. It's the overtaker's responosiblity to get past safely, however the driver being passed should brake a bit earlier for the corner if he sees that the overtaker made a move on the inside (usual overtaking of backmarkers). I had few races ruined when I thought that the guy infront would continue on the normal racing line and when I had a great exit from a corner to pass him, he suddenly swerwed infront of me, thinking he's doing me a favor :o) Just keep your line and brake a bit earlier (this method makes you loose very little time, comparing to passing in the corner or even lifting on the straight) and always watch your mirrors and listen to possibly approaching cars. This way you'll always be welcome to online races. :o) Tadej Krevh Lotus Internet Racing http://welcome.to/LotusRacing Paul Jones wrote :

Joe McGinn 03 Apr 1999#459847

>Voila! You have a well handling car that is pretty damn fast! Thx Dave! Joe

Chris "Hollywood" Schletter 09 Apr 1999#461008

No way, I completely disagree. Unless you are way off the pace, every racer should be racing hard and clean. Its up to the guy doing the passing to make the pass no matter who he is passing. None of this "move over because someone faster is coming through" stuff. Those being passed still have their own race to run and I respect that. Thats all out the window if the driver can't keep the car on the track at all because of lack of practice or car failure, then the gentlemanly thing to do is exit the race in a safe location.

Michael Barlow 09 Apr 1999#461009

I have only one problem with the slower cars.. I can't pass the ones that think they have to go from one side of the track to the other just to keep you from passing. ALL the other drivers I've passed I've had no real problems. I just follow them till I see the right place to pass. whether that be three laps after I first meet them or on the same strait. I always find the right place. What would help would be to have the car being passed to wait till I'm in view in front of them to blip the gas so I can pull in front sooner. All they have to know is when there is a car next to them. If they know there is then they should at least try to share the track. I've been passing drivers so often lately that I don't have any true problems. However, Because I've been passing I haven't much experience in being passed. What I think i'll do to cure that is to start the race with a full tank of fuel to slow me down some. Maybe I'll be lucky and have that chance to be passed. ;-)

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> Hi Tadej :) > I agree of that "practice 200 laps" thing, but I find it easier if > backmarkers just give room. > I mean if they give room in coming out of the curve by moving to inside > line, so that the one overtaking can keep his line in coming out of the > curve(normal driving). But do NOT do this in going into the curve, because > then it's easier to just overtake normally and in this case backmarker > should keep his normal line, lift throttle a bit more in braking zone when > he sees that he is overtaken(when car in the back moves to his new > drivingline). > >In general, the guys racing on VROC are pretty good (70% of them can run > >sub 1:10 anyway). > >I would advise you to nail the track before going on-line. You should know > >the baking points > >and the limits of the track before going online. Not many fast guys like > >backmarkers not > >being able to make a room for a 1 lap pass (I had few occasions when a > >backmarker just > >couldn't keep the car straight in Monza. Now add some warping and I was > >stuck on his tail > >for 2 laps until he spun into the fence and I could safely go past - and > >that was Monza). > >Make some 200 laps <g> around Glen and then try online again. You'll also > >have more statisfaction > >if you'll be fighting for positions rather then fighting your car and keep > >looking into your mirrors for > >faster guys coming on you... :o) > >Tadej

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? MikeBa on the TEN network. Member of R.O.R. 1999 http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music mikeba.vcf < 1K Download

Marko Viitanen 10 Apr 1999#461204

Hi Tadej :) I agree of that "practice 200 laps" thing, but I find it easier if backmarkers just give room. I mean if they give room in coming out of the curve by moving to inside line, so that the one overtaking can keep his line in coming out of the curve(normal driving). But do NOT do this in going into the curve, because then it's easier to just overtake normally and in this case backmarker should keep his normal line, lift throttle a bit more in braking zone when he sees that he is overtaken(when car in the back moves to his new drivingline).

^Frett 10 Apr 1999#461205

My thoughts parallel with Chris; Per chance did any other sim racers watch the IndyCar race lastnite live in Japan? Perfect example; If you're ahead or lapping the slower car does not have to pull over {a bit unprofessional}but if any slower car stays in a good race-line the faster car will always find the right spot to pass! Yes; We are not professionals but don't you think these courteous race rules would apply to sim racers also? Comments welcome! Just IMHO... Thom j. aka ^Fretts. "O" P.S. Not a bad race last-nite either except for the first yellow' at the beginning!! Another example of how even the "pros" get their adrenaline going too fast.. Happy Racin' ;o)

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> No way, I completely disagree. Unless you are way off the pace, every racer > should be racing hard and clean. Its up to the guy doing the passing to > make the pass no matter who he is passing. None of this "move over because > someone faster is coming through" stuff. Those being passed still have > their own race to run and I respect that. Thats all out the window if the > driver can't keep the car on the track at all because of lack of practice or > car failure, then the gentlemanly thing to do is exit the race in a safe > location. > > I agree of that "practice 200 laps" thing, but I find it easier if > > backmarkers just give room. > > I mean if they give room in coming out of the curve by moving to inside > > line, so that the one overtaking can keep his line in coming out of the > > curve(normal driving). But do NOT do this in going into the curve, because > > then it's easier to just overtake normally and in this case backmarker > > should keep his normal line, lift throttle a bit more in braking zone when > > he sees that he is overtaken(when car in the back moves to his new > > drivingline).

n2rif1.vcf < 1K Download

Marko Viitanen 10 Apr 1999#461206

You just can't compare GPL to reallife races, you surely don't see people 10-20 seconds slower in reallife and that is what makes it dangerous in GPL... ^Fretts <"know_spam> kirjoitti viestiss? >My thoughts parallel with Chris; Per chance did any other sim racers watch >the IndyCar race lastnite live in Japan? Perfect example; If you're ahead or >lapping the slower car does not have to pull over {a bit unprofessional}but >if any slower car stays in a good race-line the faster car will always find the >right spot to pass! Yes; We are not professionals but don't you think these >courteous race rules would apply to sim racers also? Comments welcome! >Just IMHO... Thom j. aka ^Fretts. >"O" P.S. Not a bad race last-nite either except for the first yellow' at the

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>beginning!! Another example of how even the "pros" get their adrenaline >going too fast.. Happy Racin' ;o) >> No way, I completely disagree. Unless you are way off the pace, every

racer >> should be racing hard and clean. Its up to the guy doing the passing to >> make the pass no matter who he is passing. None of this "move over because >> someone faster is coming through" stuff. Those being passed still have >> their own race to run and I respect that. Thats all out the window if the >> driver can't keep the car on the track at all because of lack of practice or

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>> car failure, then the gentlemanly thing to do is exit the race in a safe >> location. >> > I agree of that "practice 200 laps" thing, but I find it easier if >> > backmarkers just give room. >> > I mean if they give room in coming out of the curve by moving to inside >> > line, so that the one overtaking can keep his line in coming out of the >> > curve(normal driving). But do NOT do this in going into the curve,

because >> > then it's easier to just overtake normally and in this case backmarker >> > should keep his normal line, lift throttle a bit more in braking zone when >> > he sees that he is overtaken(when car in the back moves to his new >> > drivingline).

Marko Viitanen 10 Apr 1999#461207

That's exactly what I mean here, because actual problem is just those "way of the pace"...

Remco Moedt 10 Apr 1999#461208

Sorry Chris, I disagree with you. You know, there is a reason that a backmarker is to be overtaken. Since the online races tend to be sprintraces, mostly the reason is that the backmarker has spun a lot. If a fast racer has to overtake such a backmarker on equal basis, chances are the backmarker can't contol his/her car, with as result both crash. Why should the fast car be punished because the backmarker can't stay on track? Why is it that if a normal fast driver who is to be overtaken (because (s)he drives a slower car, for example), always make room for a faster driver? Why do I've to wait so long for my pizza? Why? Why? Remco

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>No way, I completely disagree. Unless you are way off the pace, every racer >should be racing hard and clean. Its up to the guy doing the passing to >make the pass no matter who he is passing. None of this "move over because >someone faster is coming through" stuff. Those being passed still have >their own race to run and I respect that. Thats all out the window if the >driver can't keep the car on the track at all because of lack of practice or >car failure, then the gentlemanly thing to do is exit the race in a safe >location. >> I agree of that "practice 200 laps" thing, but I find it easier if >> backmarkers just give room. >> I mean if they give room in coming out of the curve by moving to inside >> line, so that the one overtaking can keep his line in coming out of the >> curve(normal driving). But do NOT do this in going into the curve, because >> then it's easier to just overtake normally and in this case backmarker >> should keep his normal line, lift throttle a bit more in braking zone when >> he sees that he is overtaken(when car in the back moves to his new >> drivingline).

^Frett 11 Apr 1999#461448

Marko do you watch races? What do you mean you can not compare to "real-life"? Yes it isn't exacting but why do you think Papyrus spent 1000s of 1000s of hours re-creating this sim? To be an arcade? Also you don't see people "10-20 seconds slower in reallife"? I think you better watch more races!! F1 alone you can fine racing between each laps apart! I don' understand your resoning? Sorry.. Final note: I believe danger is in "reallife" not in Gpl or any other sim! Again comments welcome & this is still IMHO.. Cheers Thom j.

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> You just can't compare GPL to reallife races, you surely don't see people > 10-20 seconds slower in reallife > and that is what makes it dangerous in GPL... > ^Fretts <"know_spam> kirjoitti viestiss? > >My thoughts parallel with Chris; Per chance did any other sim racers watch > >the IndyCar race lastnite live in Japan? Perfect example; If you're ahead > or > >lapping the slower car does not have to pull over {a bit unprofessional}but > >if any slower car stays in a good race-line the faster car will always find > the > >right spot to pass! Yes; We are not professionals but don't you think these > >courteous race rules would apply to sim racers also? Comments welcome! > >Just IMHO... Thom j. aka ^Fretts. > >"O" P.S. Not a bad race last-nite either except for the first yellow' at > the > >beginning!! Another example of how even the "pros" get their adrenaline > >going too fast.. Happy Racin' ;o) > >> No way, I completely disagree. Unless you are way off the pace, every > racer > >> should be racing hard and clean. Its up to the guy doing the passing to > >> make the pass no matter who he is passing. None of this "move over > because > >> someone faster is coming through" stuff. Those being passed still have > >> their own race to run and I respect that. Thats all out the window if > the > >> driver can't keep the car on the track at all because of lack of practice > or > >> car failure, then the gentlemanly thing to do is exit the race in a safe > >> location. > >> > I agree of that "practice 200 laps" thing, but I find it easier if > >> > backmarkers just give room. > >> > I mean if they give room in coming out of the curve by moving to inside > >> > line, so that the one overtaking can keep his line in coming out of the > >> > curve(normal driving). But do NOT do this in going into the curve, > because > >> > then it's easier to just overtake normally and in this case backmarker > >> > should keep his normal line, lift throttle a bit more in braking zone > when > >> > he sees that he is overtaken(when car in the back moves to his new > >> > drivingline).

n2rif1.vcf < 1K Download

Marko Viitanen 11 Apr 1999#461449

I really don't see drivers 10-20 seconds(as a laptime) slower in real life racing and yes, I do watch a lot of races. and I meant dangerous in GPL, because there are these "spinners", which make it dangerous for leaders, because you never know who flies in front of you... This is true: in Watkins Glen, with about 20 drivers, the one that avoids backmarkers "flyers" the best, will win the race... I have experiensed that a lot... ^Fretts <"know_spam> kirjoitti viestiss? ...

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>Marko do you watch races? What do you mean you can not compare >to "real-life"? Yes it isn't exacting but why do you think Papyrus spent >1000s of 1000s of hours re-creating this sim? To be an arcade? >Also you don't see people "10-20 seconds slower in reallife"? I think >you better watch more races!! F1 alone you can fine racing between >each laps apart! I don' understand your resoning? Sorry.. >Final note: I believe danger is in "reallife" not in Gpl or any other sim! >Again comments welcome & this is still IMHO.. >Cheers Thom j. >> You just can't compare GPL to reallife races, you surely don't see people >> 10-20 seconds slower in reallife >> and that is what makes it dangerous in GPL...

ymenard 11 Apr 1999#461450

I have experience from the NROS and GPL online, and let me tell you that your attitude is seriously arrogant towards slower people. Im sorry but not everybody is born with racing talents. It takes time and determination to become good, but even there some people just don't have the capabilities. I mean take somebody and sit him in a F1. Even if you make him do 1000000laps, it may be very possible that he doesn't have the same talent as the real F1 drivers. Does that make him bad ? Is he a "vilain"? No. Not at all. Understand that and you will have a much better experience with your so called lappers. I will say from NROS experience and GPL experience that 40% of the crashes between a leader and a lapper is the leader's fault. He didn't backed off just a little and wait until the next corner, or he had to really pass at THAT point on the first attempt or he would had died. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Marko Viitanen 12 Apr 1999#461607

Let me ask you why did Senna hit Irvine in the face in Suzuka? and everyone agreed that he deserved it... ..and btw. I don't mean here that slower people would be worse people in anyway, I just mean like I said, they make it dangerous, not just slower, but those who you see flying all over the place... It's completely different when you drive leagueraces...you don't see "VROC" there.. I think it's the other way around, he just didn't let him pass, so it had to be done...difficult way... Why should leader back off? ymenard kirjoitti viestiss? >> I really don't see drivers 10-20 seconds(as a laptime) slower in real life

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>> racing and yes, I do watch a lot of races. >> and I meant dangerous in GPL, because there are these "spinners", which >make >> it dangerous for leaders, because you never know who flies in front of >> you... >I have experience from the NROS and GPL online, and let me tell you that >your attitude is seriously arrogant towards slower people. >Im sorry but not everybody is born with racing talents. It takes time and >determination to become good, but even there some people just don't have

the >capabilities. I mean take somebody and sit him in a F1. Even if you make >him do 1000000laps, it may be very possible that he doesn't have the same >talent as the real F1 drivers. >Does that make him bad ? Is he a "vilain"? No. Not at all. Understand that

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>and you will have a much better experience with your so called lappers. I >will say from NROS experience and GPL experience that 40% of the crashes >between a leader and a lapper is the leader's fault. He didn't backed off >just a little and wait until the next corner, or he had to really pass at >THAT point on the first attempt or he would had died. >-- >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> >-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ >-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ >-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >-- May the Downforce be with you... >"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Greger Huttu 12 Apr 1999#461608

On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:21:39 +0300, "Marko Viitanen"

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>>I have experience from the NROS and GPL online, and let me tell you that >>your attitude is seriously arrogant towards slower people. >>Im sorry but not everybody is born with racing talents. It takes time and >>determination to become good, but even there some people just don't have >>the >>capabilities. I mean take somebody and sit him in a F1. Even if you make >>him do 1000000laps, it may be very possible that he doesn't have the same >>talent as the real F1 drivers. >>Does that make him bad ? Is he a "vilain"? No. Not at all. Understand >>that >>and you will have a much better experience with your so called lappers. I >>will say from NROS experience and GPL experience that 40% of the crashes >>between a leader and a lapper is the leader's fault. He didn't backed off >>just a little and wait until the next corner, or he had to really pass at >>THAT point on the first attempt or he would had died. >Let me ask you why did Senna hit Irvine in the face in Suzuka? and everyone >agreed that he deserved it... >..and btw. I don't mean here that slower people would be worse people in >anyway, I just mean like I said, they make it dangerous, not just slower, >but those who you see flying all over the place...

Yeah, slower people aren't really a problem if they're consistant. If they're spinning and weaving all over the track then it's a "little" dangerous. Anyway, everybody needs practise before they can be fast and more importantly consistant. But maybe some could practise offline first and when they feel that they can do clean laps then go online racing via VROC. At least that's what I did. I haven't raced via VROC for ages, just been doing league races and even there accidents do happen. Accidents just can't be avoided because it's humans were racing with. I hope. :) Sometimes.. ;-) I always take it very carefully when lapping and I have much experience in this. <G> When I catch a backmarker I take it slowly and just let him know that I'm going to lap him soon. I don't want to be right on his gearbox 'cos it's not a very comfortable position. If he makes a small mistake it will probably take us both out. And it's easier for me also to make a mistake if I'm following too closely. Usually it's 2-3 corners and he / she lets me past very cleanly. Much better than hurrying and taking us both out. The situation changes when the P2 is only a second or so behind me. Then there's always the extra e***ment 'cos the P2 driver can get a little carried away and punt me out or something like that. As I said, I haven't races via VROC for ages but when I did I think that it wasn't so bad. -- Greger Huttu

Marko Viitanen 13 Apr 1999#461775

Let's not start talking about "him" here ;) That is quite ideal situation and I do that a lot too, 2-5 corners and then you can get by... sometimes it takes longer and sometimes he/she just keeps on blocking... ;)

EldredP 13 Apr 1999#461776

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>..and btw. I don't mean here that slower people would be worse people in >anyway, I just mean like I said, they make it dangerous, not just slower, >but those who you see flying all over the place... >It's completely different when you drive leagueraces...you don't see "VROC" >there.. >I think it's the other way around, he just didn't let him pass, so it had to >be done...difficult way... >Why should leader back off?

Why should the slower car pull off the track JUST to let the leader by...? I have no problem with letting a faster car go by, but I *won't* run off the track to do it. If you're GOOD, you shouldn't have a problem passing me... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Hena Hakkanen 13 Apr 1999#461777

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>>>It's completely different when you drive leagueraces...you don't see >"VROC" >>>there.. >>Sometimes.. ;-) >Let's not start talking about "him" here ;)

Who's "him"? Me? 8-| Hena

Marko Viitanen 13 Apr 1999#461778

True, I didn't mean that slower cars should pull of the track, but just ease with the throttle(in time) to make overtaking a bit easier. So much depends on actual situation, if the one overtaking is right in your gearbox, don't ease the throttle until he's already taken his own line and in that case, I don't mean that you have to park your car or drive to the pits...;) EldredP kirjoitti viestiss?

Marko Viitanen 13 Apr 1999#461779

Hena Hakkanen kirjoitti viestiss? I didn't say that, you did ;P

Hena Hakkanen 13 Apr 1999#461780

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> Hena Hakkanen kirjoitti viestiss? > >>Let's not start talking about "him" here ;) > >Who's "him"? > >Me? 8-| > >Hena > I didn't say that, you did ;P

No I didn't ... I asked if it was ... but never mind, the answer is obvious. Hena

EldredP 15 Apr 1999#462171

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>True, I didn't mean that slower cars should pull of the track, but just ease >with the throttle(in time) >to make overtaking a bit easier. >So much depends on actual situation, if the one overtaking is right in your >gearbox, don't ease >the throttle until he's already taken his own line and in that case, I don't >mean that you have to >park your car or drive to the pits...;) >EldredP kirjoitti viestiss? >>Why should the slower car pull off the track JUST to let the leader by...? >>I have no problem with letting a faster car go by, but I *won't* run off >the >>track to do it. If you're GOOD, you shouldn't have a problem passing me... >>Eldred

Oh, ok. It *sounded* like you(or others) wanted us 'velocity-challenged' drivers to hit the grass when the leaders came through... Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Marko Viitanen 15 Apr 1999#462172

Yeah, seems like some others think that too. I just noticed it yesterday when racing Rouen at VROC. There was this gentleman, who let me go by when I was in my hotlap. I was faster, but actually he doesn't _have to_ let me go by if he is doing his own hotlap. It was my fault that I was so close to him and I should of waited a bit to get some empty space in front of me. Sure, my lap was poletime(thanks), but it spoiled his lap, which wasn't necessary... :( Slower guys actually can do their hotlaps too and faster guys sure doesn't have any special rights there... :) ...but you _HAVE TO_ give room if you are _NOT_ in your hotlap. I've seen few guys racing me when I'm hotlapping and they just came out of the pits... EldredP kirjoitti viestiss?

schwab 15 Apr 1999#462173

Yes, yes, yes, Marko I agree totally! :-) Especially your point about people racing you when NOT on their hotlaps... like just out of the pits. That is just uncool. -_Dave

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> Yeah, seems like some others think that too. > I just noticed it yesterday when racing Rouen at VROC. There was this > gentleman, who let > me go by when I was in my hotlap. I was faster, but actually he doesn't > _have to_ let me go by > if he is doing his own hotlap. It was my fault that I was so close to him > and I should of waited a bit > to get some empty space in front of me. Sure, my lap was poletime(thanks), > but it spoiled his lap, > which wasn't necessary... :( > Slower guys actually can do their hotlaps too and faster guys sure doesn't > have any special > rights there... :) > ...but you _HAVE TO_ give room if you are _NOT_ in your hotlap. I've seen > few guys racing me when I'm hotlapping and they just came out of the pits... > EldredP kirjoitti viestiss? > >Oh, ok. It *sounded* like you(or others) wanted us 'velocity-challenged' > >drivers to hit the grass when the leaders came through... > >Eldred

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe