TOCA 2 ---> are you serious???

Just tried the demo. The car-physics are total crap. Graphics are poor too. Don't believe anyone who says its a simulator. (it's a pitty because BTCC racing is great)

Yeah, I don't think anyone really considers TOCA 2 to be a true sim, whatever that is<g>, but it is a fun diversion when you just want to rub door handles with someone. -don

On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:54:52 +0200, "Karl Zosel" >Just tried the demo. >The car-physics are total crap. They are a bit tricky at first, but no worse than the original (I find them a bit better). In what way are they poor? They are a huge step up from the graphics in TOCA1. And when you run it at 1024x768 they look very nice indeed. I dont think anyone says it's a sim. -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors Alfa Romeo - Super Touring - Club Cars http://fullspeed.to/astc Australian Super Touring Championship News and Information

Yes, I would be interested to know what you thought of the first TOCA. I for one loved it, and felt it captured "rough and tumble" better than any other game out there. If you didn't like the first one, I'd wager you won't like it's sequal.

: Yes, I would be interested to know what you thought of the first TOCA. I for : one loved it, and felt it captured "rough and tumble" better than any other : game out there. If you didn't like the first one, I'd wager you won't like it's : sequal. I have to say, I'm a devotee of the Codemasters games. Sure, they're not the serious sims that games like GPL are (although, I think that graphically, if anything, TOCA 2 is ahead of GPL - I can never find braking points in GPL because the tracks are so featureless). However, I think that TOCA really captures well how a TOCA race seems to be (to a spectator anyway). Really pretty exciting stuff, bashing doors, bits falling off the car and drivers "leaning" on each other. A fussy GPL style sim would not at all be faithful to the way that touring cars are raced (to a spectator at least). Richard (looking forward to seeing the BTCC season opener in Donnington next Monday) -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

That's an interesting angle, actually - thinking of "simulating" a racing style based on what it seems like when watching, rather than modeling each and every subtle nuance to the point of tedium. I've never gotten too into GPL or any of the other Papyrus sims, because while I feel they probably are giving me dynamics as close to the real thing as possible, I think they forget that I'm not really there. I'm sitting at home in front of my computer, unable to feel the G's or the bumps or any of the movements of my car - and, for my tastes, they do not make enough concessions to compensate for that. That's why I loved TOCA 1 - it certainly wasn't as painstakingly realistic as N2 or GPL, but it was fun, and definitely had more going on under the hood than an arcade racer.

as someone who buys nearly all the 'sim' style racing games i have to say i really enjoyed playing TOCA ,especially over modem connection with a friend. it may not be as realistic as GPL,but there is definitely a need for games that fall between the console/arcade style and the full on sim's. they give us a chance to enjoy racing without messing around with setups too much and have a greater 'fun' factor. as for the graphics side,i'm running a p2 350 ,with 2 v2's sli.,and the demo of TOCA 2 looks great and hums along nicely with full detail,i personally can't wait to get my hands on the full release. DEO On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:54:52 +0200, "Karl Zosel" >Just tried the demo. >The car-physics are total crap. >Graphics are poor too. >Don't believe anyone who says its a simulator. >(it's a pitty because BTCC racing is great)

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> I feel that way sometime in other genres too, it's the fun factor. Look > at Tiger Woods vs. MS Golf. The difficulty for developers is getting the > balance just right. I still want to feel like I'm driving a car but the > only RL experience I have to compare it with is twin engine karting and > some very fast road cars. > Sims like GPL give me feel in abundance but it's different to what I > know from RL and the knife edge you have to drive on to be fast is > challenging but so frustrating sometimes. Periods of relief with TOCA, > CMR and hopefully TOCA2 are very welcome. > However, they are all flawed to some extent. I still await the game/sim > that acurately captures my RL experiences and translates this > successfully via the limited interface. Till then I'll carry on enjoying > what we have.

You tried Gran Turismo for the PSX? To me, the feel is just right. I play GPL because of the multiplayer capability and so I can use a decent wheel. GT has it's flaws though. There's no damage modeling, which kinda changes the way you race (it's not that hard to stay on the road, but you almost always bump the competitors in a big way (if they ever get anywhere near you, they are pretty crappy or choose the wrong cars). -- Anssi Lehtinen

The biggest thing that bugged me about Gran Turismo was that they billed themselves as "The Real Driving Simulator", and yet had a button which could best be described as a "Powerslide" button. I'm not trying to take away from the game, however - the gameplay (buying cars, upgrades, winning money) was very good for the most part. And the feel of the cars was good - but I hardly think it was even close to accurate. I believe the Playstation itself is only capable of integer math, and therefore would have great difficulty simulating actual car physics. (As opposed to the Dreamcast and Playstation 2, which use floating point math, and should give us more realism.) And I agree about damage - it was definitely missed in that game - though I felt even the sensation of colliding with another car felt phoney.

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>The biggest thing that bugged me about Gran Turismo was that they billed >themselves as "The Real Driving Simulator", and yet had a button which could >best be described as a "Powerslide" button. I'm not trying to take away from >the game, however - the gameplay (buying cars, upgrades, winning money) was >very good for the most part. And the feel of the cars was good - but I hardly >think it was even close to accurate. I believe the Playstation itself is only >capable of integer math, and therefore would have great difficulty simulating >actual car physics. (As opposed to the Dreamcast and Playstation 2, which use >floating point math, and should give us more realism.) And I agree about damage >- it was definitely missed in that game - though I felt even the sensation of >colliding with another car felt phoney.

I think the worst problem has to be the lack of customisation of race length, some terrible AI, and as you say, lack of damage. Or even collision physics, for that matter. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

U may be able to bash bits off of your car in TOCA but does it affect handling??????

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> > I feel that way sometime in other genres too, it's the fun factor. Look > > at Tiger Woods vs. MS Golf. The difficulty for developers is getting the > > balance just right. I still want to feel like I'm driving a car but the > > only RL experience I have to compare it with is twin engine karting and > > some very fast road cars. > > Sims like GPL give me feel in abundance but it's different to what I > > know from RL and the knife edge you have to drive on to be fast is > > challenging but so frustrating sometimes. Periods of relief with TOCA, > > CMR and hopefully TOCA2 are very welcome. > > However, they are all flawed to some extent. I still await the game/sim > > that acurately captures my RL experiences and translates this > > successfully via the limited interface. Till then I'll carry on enjoying > > what we have. > You tried Gran Turismo for the PSX? To me, the feel is just right. I play > GPL because of the multiplayer capability and so I can use a decent wheel. > GT has it's flaws though. There's no damage modeling, which kinda changes > the way you race (it's not that hard to stay on the road, but you almost > always bump the competitors in a big way (if they ever get anywhere near > you, they are pretty crappy or choose the wrong cars). > -- > Anssi Lehtinen

I agree with DEO & others in this thread. GPL maybe a front runner as far as the physics model goes, but for better than Arcade style racing without having to become a rocket scientist, even Toca 1 is great. The Demo runs just fine and like the others I can't wait for it to hit the retail shelfs downunder. If nothing else Toca has given me many many hours great one on one racing over modem. GPL has given us many many hours of wasted time trying to get and stay connected. Tinker

Up to 20% performance loss. Cheers, Paul

> Just tried the demo. > The car-physics are total crap. Of course, the physics are flawed from a "true simulation" perspective, GPL, for example is far more realistic than TOCA2. Compared to Grand Touring Car, Sega Touring Car, Need For Speed or Johnny Herbert they are very realistic. TOCA2 lies somewhere in between a simulation and an arcade, but that's not the angle you should be approaching it anyway. TOCA2 is semi-realistic fun with close hard racing. It can be a nice breather from the rigours of GPL. You must have a pretty low spec graphics combo or a different perception of what makes up good graphics than I do. I don't think anyone does - as stated, the consensus on this n.g. would be that it lies somewhere between arcade and sim. Here we agree, Cheers, Paul

On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:54:52 +0200, "Karl Zosel" >Just tried the demo. >The car-physics are total crap. >Graphics are poor too. >Don't believe anyone who says its a simulator. >(it's a pitty because BTCC racing is great) I doubt that TOCA Touring Cars 2 was ever supposed to be, or pretend to be, a simulator. However, I certainly don't agree with you about it being bad. The car physics are a great improvement over the original - you CAN actually take a corner and not spin. I've played the retail version on the Playstation, which was fairly good, but I've only played the demo on the PC. Unless you have played it on both formats you can not understand just how much of an improvement TOCA 2 is. It's very good. Very good indeed.

Personally, I don't believe we will ever see a true 'simulator' on the Playstation, or perhaps any console. First of all, graphics (IMO) are very important to a simulator and so is depth, and in GPL we had plenty of that. Even the latest consoles can't compete with the performance of, say a Pentium 166 with a single V2, let alone a Pentim 3 500MHz with a couple of Voodoo II's, or even a Voodoo III - heck, even a K7! It's not just about graphics however, it's also about the 'reputation'. Consoles have always been known for 'arcade' games - games which you can get into right away, play for a little while with a friend, and then leave. The PC however is very different and can be used for some of the most complicated simulators in the world. Hail the PC!

I must admit the CD makes a terrfic drink coaster.

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> On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:54:52 +0200, "Karl Zosel" > >Just tried the demo. > >The car-physics are total crap. > >Graphics are poor too. > >Don't believe anyone who says its a simulator. > >(it's a pitty because BTCC racing is great) > I doubt that TOCA Touring Cars 2 was ever supposed to be, or pretend > to be, a simulator. However, I certainly don't agree with you about it > being bad. The car physics are a great improvement over the original - > you CAN actually take a corner and not spin. > I've played the retail version on the Playstation, which was fairly > good, but I've only played the demo on the PC. Unless you have played > it on both formats you can not understand just how much of an > improvement TOCA 2 is. > It's very good. Very good indeed.

I have just start to play Toca 2, and I'm already win easy in Expert mode, but the game is fun to play, I useally play GPL, and i think that's the best sim ever, but for fun, when I resting from GPL, Toca2 is a great game. > Just tried the demo. > The car-physics are total crap. > Graphics are poor too. > Don't believe anyone who says its a simulator. > (it's a pitty because BTCC racing is great)