GT Interactive, the Indy 500, and the IRL

Here's an open question to everybody in the newsgroup: What's it going to take for GT Interactive to produce a really great simulation based on the Indy 500 and the Indy Racing League? With great sims like Viper Racing and Grand Prix Legends already on the market, and promising sims like EA's Sports Car GT coming out soon, what should GT Interactive be shooting for in terms of features, operating modes, and such? Let's all assume up-front that it's a given that they need to come up with decent 3D graphics and a good physics model -- INCLUDING a decent damage model as well, so that goes unsaid, but what are you seeing in the latest crop of sims that you feel are "must-have" features that GT Interactive needs to include in an Indy/IRL sim? I'm talking about features like the ability to choose between Career Mode and Quick Race mode, the ability to fine-tune your controls (steering, brake, and throttle), adjustable difficulty settings (beginner, intermediate, expert -- or arcade, intermediate, and sim), adjustable AI skill levels, etc. These are a *few* of the features that I've seen in Viper Racing, GPL, and SCGT that I think are must-haves for any future sims -- but what do the REST of you think? What I'm trying to figure out is what it's going to take to create a sim based on the Indy 500 and the Indy Racing League that will make oval track sim racing fans forget about NASCAR 2 / NASCAR 99/ NASCAR 2000 long enough to discover that you don't need fenders and doors to race on an oval? <G> The game companies DO pay attention to the newsgroups -- so let's let 'em know what we want. Better to let them know before they get too far along, because it's always easier to do it right the first time than it is to rely on a future patch to cure a bad sim. And I for one would like enjoy some simulated IRL action on a better platform than what ABC Interactive gave us with their ABC Road To Indy sim (talk about a game in dire need of a patch!). So, let's hear what YOU have to say . . . -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com

simple, all you need is Michael Andretti and Al Unser Jr and....oh sorry.... dave henrie

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>Here's an open question to everybody in the newsgroup: >What's it going to take for GT Interactive to produce a really great >simulation based on the Indy 500 and the Indy Racing League? With >great sims like Viper Racing and Grand Prix Legends already on the >market, and promising sims like EA's Sports Car GT coming out soon, >what should GT Interactive be shooting for in terms of features, >operating modes, and such? >Let's all assume up-front that it's a given that they need to come up >with decent 3D graphics and a good physics model -- INCLUDING a decent >damage model as well, so that goes unsaid, but what are you seeing in >the latest crop of sims that you feel are "must-have" features that GT >Interactive needs to include in an Indy/IRL sim? I'm talking about >features like the ability to choose between Career Mode and Quick Race >mode, the ability to fine-tune your controls (steering, brake, and >throttle), adjustable difficulty settings (beginner, intermediate, >expert -- or arcade, intermediate, and sim), adjustable AI skill >levels, etc. >These are a *few* of the features that I've seen in Viper Racing, GPL, >and SCGT that I think are must-haves for any future sims -- but what >do the REST of you think? What I'm trying to figure out is what it's >going to take to create a sim based on the Indy 500 and the Indy >Racing League that will make oval track sim racing fans forget about >NASCAR 2 / NASCAR 99/ NASCAR 2000 long enough to discover that you >don't need fenders and doors to race on an oval? <G> >The game companies DO pay attention to the newsgroups -- so let's let >'em know what we want. Better to let them know before they get too >far along, because it's always easier to do it right the first time >than it is to rely on a future patch to cure a bad sim. And I for one >would like enjoy some simulated IRL action on a better platform than >what ABC Interactive gave us with their ABC Road To Indy sim (talk >about a game in dire need of a patch!). >So, let's hear what YOU have to say . . . >-- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com

>-- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com IRL= Indy Rookie League :)

Here's an open message to every software development company :) Another time... Does GTI want to focus on the small and difficult to aim hard-core simracing market or they want to focus on the big and easy to please arcade-style market ? Im not really sure that a company can create a decent game engine for graphics/physics/damage on their first title. Especially when it's their first attempt. I never really saw a company do this. MGI had ex-Papyrus employees, Codemaster had some problems with Toca (no damage model, canned physics). Ubisoft is still with their old POD game engine, etc.. Why do they need us to tell what we want ? They should easily be able to find this no ? We want everything the MOST realistic possible. First of all, let me be the first to say that even if the IRL has an "good" game engine, it will be a fl?p. I can't see the mass *** market buy such a title. They seriously don't give an arse (sorry but it's true) about a league 90% of them never heard of, racing on a limited # of tracks. Your loosing the primary market for even hard-core sim. Because even for hard-core sims, their main market IS the mass *** market. Not the hard-core. I don't think there is a way. The Papyrus new game engine is soo ahead of everybody that at the moment they are untouchable for the next 1-2years. Everything other companies are telling is vaporware (Trans-Am Racing, Rally99, Gp3, etc..). I mean, Im sorry but there's just not enough depth in an IRL sim to please hard core and mass *** market. There's a too limited number of tracks, with most of them being similar "D-shaped ovals". The only thing that could help them is to focus on Indianapolis. But the mass gamers will start now to associate the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to Nascar and F1, not IRL.... it's just a reality of what happened. I would enjoy, but let's see... if they are asking us now, that means they haven't started yet. If they want a SERIOUS hard-core sim that <cough> would be as good as the Papyrus game engine, it will be out in about 2years (I can't see any R&D for a serious game engine in less time than this). By this time, F1 will be at Indy. Maybe they should do this instead <g>. But as I probably thnk, they will have a limited budget, crew and time, so it will be shipped fast, with a arcade game engine, and many bugs. Not that I say they can't do a good job. But it's just a reality of the "first title" companies. Unless they take the game engine from the DRIVER team ;) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Hell, I can't even watch the IRL here in Louisville, Kentucky. Fox Sports Net Ohio would rather show a hockey game than the Phoenix race.... Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

I kinda agree with the other people that responded to this message even though i am a strong supporter of IRL. The first title is always hard to produce to compete with what already exists (especially with GPL out and N3 on the way). However if the game is really good it might have a chance in the marketplace seeing has how the future of another Papy CART sim is questionable. I guess its a wait and see kind of situation. Just as long as its better than ABC Indy Racing (though i still have fun with that occasinally). Chris

Keep in mind that GT Interactive is currently responsible for Powerslide (not much of a sim from what I've heard, but a fairly highly-acclaimed fantasy racing title), and they're also responsible for the upcoming Trans Am sim. If the Trans Am sim turns out to have a decent physics model, it *could* be the basis for any future sims (including IRL and Indy 500 sims), in much the same way that Papyrus used the Indycar2 game as the basis for the original NASCAR Racing sim. (Yeah, I know, the Trans Am title is just vaporware at this point . . .) Also, GT Interactive is a publisher, not a developer per se -- publishers rely on game developers like MGI (the folks who did Viper Racing) and EAI (the people who are developing Trans Am Racing) to do the actual game development. FWIW, the folks at MGI aren't working on anything at the moment as far as I know, and any company looking for a game developer for a racing sim could do far worse, don't you think? -- JB

>Here's an open question to everybody in the newsgroup: >What's it going to take for GT Interactive to produce a really great >simulation based on the Indy 500 and the Indy Racing League? IRL flames aside, online racing. I didn't try it until GPL, and now its all I do in GPL. Many other people will say the same thing. YMenard makes a good point regarding targeting arcade versus *** simulation. If you want a popular hit, and you don't want to take forever developing it, go the arcade route. Of course, that isn't what I or a large number of the readers of the newsgroup or perhaps even yourself want them to produce, but that's the reality of the market. Lowest common denominator, y'know... Part of the problem of displacing a NASCAR sim. <And I managed to do that and not say anything *** about you know who and you know what :> "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Not a great loss, though, is it? :-) ! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 ________________________________________________________________________________ "I liked things better when I didn't understand them" (Calvin & Hobbes)

OK John, I was kinda snide about my first reply. But here is what you asked for. Most of this is on the technical side. content choice and features are developer design choices I guess. But here are some important items. 1. Get the Controller issue nailed down. Thrustmaster dang near invented the PC wheel market, but most of their older wheels are not 100% Win95/98 friendly. also TEST TEST TEST as many different wheels as possible. Force Feedback etc. This comes from knowing your target audience. You have 3 kinds I would think. The Avg computer user who barely knows how to turn it on, he probably has a gamepad that came with the system. Thats ok. I would think the next level would be the semi serious users. These are folks with some sort of wheel and a pretty good knowledge on how to set them up. The last group would be the ultra serious users who spend thousands on wheels, soundcards, video cards etc. The single biggest mistake you can make is to shoot for the lowest common denominator, can put out "deer hunter" style mass market driving product, but even if you sell tons of them initially, your word of mouth reputation will be so poor that any other attempts at the genre will almost certainly be doomed. 2. The 2nd biggie is Don't promote and promise things the sim can't deliver. EA Sports has a very bad reputation around here from the marketing of Nascar Revolution. If EA Sports put out something that made GPL seem like a kids toy...they STILL wouldn't get any respect. kinda goes back to the first point. If you do go low...say so..don't tell folks your reaching for the stars with a sim and then sell something that barely clears the weeds. 3. For a sim to suceed is DOES NOT need multiplayer. However...for a sim to be well recieved and to have repeat sales of a product line and good word of mouth it MUST have multiplayer capibilities. The bar here is getting higher and higher. If you try and sell a product that allows jerky head to head play without at least the ability to add many users...you are in trouble. Once again GPL sets a technical standard. Even 8 player capabilty would be acceptable if DONE RIGHT. 4. You do not have to ape every feature of physics that GPL has. Creating a sim that is "fun" while also believable does not mean it absolutely must be on par with GPL. Look at new titles like Toca 2 and SCGT. Certainly not the struggle to drive as GPL is but fairly well received. 5. Notice I haven't compared anything to products like Need For Speed. Once again, you asked about a "simulation," If you really want to produce a Sim, strive for that...NFS is great fun but it most certainly is NOT a sim. This ties in with the above, if you want a NFS feel or style, then you'd better let folks know early that ARCADE is the target, not SIMULATION. The vocal few will crucify you and your sales will be stillborn. 5. More hardware. Video cards are rapidly advancing, so are soundcards. Provide the resouces to your developers so that the product is not only near the cutting edge, but COMPATIBLE with many different formats. There are several key boards to shoot for....The Nvidia line AND the 3dfx line should be considered, and made rock solid BEFORE the product is shipped. 3d sound and the like are a rapidly growing area..get your Vortex2 and EAX issues found, fixed and delivered BEFORE you give a shipping greenlight. Any more questions? :) dave henrie >>I kinda agree with the other people that responded to this message even though >>i am a strong supporter of IRL. The first title is always hard to produce to >>compete with what already exists (especially with GPL out and N3 on the way).

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>Keep in mind that GT Interactive is currently responsible for >Powerslide (not much of a sim from what I've heard, but a fairly >highly-acclaimed fantasy racing title), and they're also responsible >for the upcoming Trans Am sim. If the Trans Am sim turns out to have >a decent physics model, it *could* be the basis for any future sims >(including IRL and Indy 500 sims), in much the same way that Papyrus >used the Indycar2 game as the basis for the original NASCAR Racing >sim. (Yeah, I know, the Trans Am title is just vaporware at this >point . . .) >Also, GT Interactive is a publisher, not a developer per se -- >publishers rely on game developers like MGI (the folks who did Viper >Racing) and EAI (the people who are developing Trans Am Racing) to do >the actual game development. >FWIW, the folks at MGI aren't working on anything at the moment as far >as I know, and any company looking for a game developer for a racing >sim could do far worse, don't you think? >-- JB

Depending on the budget, they can not test every conceivable combination of equipment. Thats the marketing department, which as everyone knows in every facet of life the marketing folks are always over hyping things. If EA or EA Sports came out with a good racing game taht put GPL to shame, sure they'd get my respect for doing that. I would tend to disagree on both points. it does need multiplayer to succeed, and it does need more than 8 player capability. But that multiplayer can't be like SCGT where they only officially support or even seem to care about is the LAN based (I have a LAN, but most people dont..they race on the internet for multiplayer)...your game is not going to be as well received otherwise. Toca2 and SCGT have been well received? MMs... I must have missed those posts. Again, you have budgets to deal with.