OT: Williams hit with ugly stick

Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration... http://www.f1racing.net/launchphotogallery.php3?id=600 Glenn -- ---------------------- Remove NOSPAM to reply

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:26:43 GMT, Careful Hack <[email hidden]> wrote: >Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration... > >http://www.f1racing.net/launchphotogallery.php3?id=600 Sexy. I've always hated Williams, but that's a nice looking car. Jason

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:26:43 GMT, Careful Hack >Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration... >http://www.f1racing.net/launchphotogallery.php3?id=600 ***. I've always hated Williams, but that's a nice looking car. Jason

It sure better be fast, cause it is BUTT ugly to me. Ralph and Juan can barely muster up a smile sitting on it. I can't imagine a wind tunnel scupting something that looks like that over the old nose, but I guess we'll see. Wayne "Careful Hack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DCGKb.80857$[email hidden]...

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> Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration... > > http://www.f1racing.net/launchphotogallery.php3?id=600 > > Glenn > > -- > ---------------------- > Remove NOSPAM to reply >

In article <DCGKb.80857$[email hidden]>, Careful Hack <[email hidden]> writes: >Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration... > >http://www.f1racing.net/launchphotogallery.php3?id=600 > It's a cowcatcher...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Wayne Stelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:AfLKb.426043$J77.358425@fed1read07... > It sure better be fast, cause it is BUTT ugly to me. Ralph and Juan can > barely muster up a smile sitting on it. I can't imagine a wind tunnel > scupting something that looks like that over the old nose, but I guesswe'll > see. I suspect they're trying to reduce some understeer by cleaning up the front wings airflow.... not sure what implications the shorter nose will have for flow over the rest of the car. I'll wait til I see some lap times... KK

Agreed. An interesting approach to front wing airflow! It seems it creates a nifty extra tunnel that should generate a larger amount of downforce with less wing as well as better directing flow under the car too! The Jury is still out for me as to the beauty of the car. But I don't hate it! I wonder how it will handle a frontal collision? More pics... http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html ____________ Pete Panaia "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle > I suspect they're trying to reduce some understeer by cleaning up thefront > wings airflow.... not sure what implications the shorter nose will havefor > flow over the rest of the car. I'll wait til I see some lap times...

Sorry...the pics are on the left under Photos\Teams... <Snip> > More pics... > http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html >

I found myself wondering if the two arms are inline with the side barge boards. Thereby increasing the job they do. Perhaps they are meant to be an extension of the barge boards. I haven't seen a real good picture of that yet. -- Richard "ZZ" Busch Member: Screamers Racing League OAO CORS MARA TransAm RASCAR GPL Rank + 17.415 MoGPL Rank + 318.586 N2002 Rank + 7.695 TransAm Rank ??

I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and suspended front wing under it. At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (except this new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing. So... Maybe this is the new wave of the future.... Then again, I also recall a 6 wheel Tyrell about 25 years ago that only lasted one season ;-) "Pete Panaia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JcNKb.9$[email hidden]...

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> Sorry...the pics are on the left under Photos\Teams... > > <Snip> > > More pics... > > http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html > > > >

"Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jjUKb.773803$Fm2.750426@attbi_s04...

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> I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and > suspended front wing under it. > At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (except this > new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing. > > So... Maybe this is the new wave of the future.... > Then again, I also recall a 6 wheel Tyrell about 25 years ago that only > lasted one season ;-)

and it was TyrRell that came up with the high wing. Confused ALL the designers of the day coz they all worked on high mount di-hedral wings not realizing that Ken had been able to change the airflow to below the nose and split to the sidepods hence able to make them smaller and THERE was the saving. It was the effects of the wing elsewhere on the car. In those days folks had to test things by building them and putting them in wind-tunnels. The Tyrrell designers were laughing all the time they saw someone play with the wing. 'Course once the trick was known everyone realised and changed the body/pod designs.

"Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jjUKb.773803$Fm2.750426@attbi_s04...

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> I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and > suspended front wing under it. > At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (except this > new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing. > > So... Maybe this is the new wave of the future.... > Then again, I also recall a 6 wheel Tyrell about 25 years ago that only > lasted one season ;-) >

Only because Goodyear stopped developing tires, and the FIA eventually outlawed it. The potential was quite high for that design. Stephen

"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ffc1e0e$[email hidden]... > > "Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jjUKb.773803$Fm2.750426@attbi_s04... > > I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and > > suspended front wing under it. > > At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (exceptthis

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> > new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing. > > > > So... Maybe this is the new wave of the future.... > > Then again, I also recall a 6 wheel Tyrell about 25 years ago that only > > lasted one season ;-) > > > > Only because Goodyear stopped developing tires, and the FIA eventually > outlawed it. The potential was quite high for that design.

nope, sorry, it wasn't. It was a dead-end, the benefits from the aero of the lower wheels were NOT delivered. It was also a nightmare to setup as it was difficult controlling the interactions BETWEEN the two front wheels on corners and bumps. ( all from the mouth of Tyrrel chief designer who visited our car club at the time of the di-hedral wing )

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:37:26 -0000, "Bad-Boy" <[email hidden]> wrote: >It was a dead-end, the benefits from the aero of the lower wheels were NOT >delivered. >It was also a nightmare to setup as it was difficult controlling the >interactions BETWEEN the two front wheels on corners and bumps. >( all from the mouth of Tyrrel chief designer who visited our car club at >the time of the di-hedral wing ) Tyrrell must have been a real fan of dead ends then. I was fairly certain by 1972 it had been shown that dihedral wings were useless after the absolutely useless Maurice Philippe-designed Superteam indycars. Then again indycars had turbo and ground effect for years before f1, so maybe it takes awhile for things to catch on over there. It is interesting that there was no benefit to using 6 wheels when Williams made a car a few years later using the same idea that was so much faster than the competition in testing that FIA immediately banned it. Granted the FW08 had 4 wheels in the rear, but the idea of less drag/less lift/more grip was the same. Final note, as far as setting up the P34 goes, it seemed to do ok when Tyrrell had Jody Scheckter onboard. I wouldn't be surprised if its failure in 77 had as much to do with Peterson's lack of testing/setup ability as it did with flaws in the design itself. If goodyear had given them more resources, and they had a skilled test driver like Lauda or Andretti, I suspect the history of the P34 would be much different. Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:37:26 -0000, "Bad-Boy" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >It was a dead-end, the benefits from the aero of the lower wheels wereNOT

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> >delivered. > >It was also a nightmare to setup as it was difficult controlling the > >interactions BETWEEN the two front wheels on corners and bumps. > >( all from the mouth of Tyrrel chief designer who visited our car club at > >the time of the di-hedral wing ) > > Tyrrell must have been a real fan of dead ends then. I was fairly > certain by 1972 it had been shown that dihedral wings were useless > after the absolutely useless Maurice Philippe-designed Superteam > indycars. Then again indycars had turbo and ground effect for years > before f1, so maybe it takes awhile for things to catch on over there.

Suggest you read some of Tyrrel history. it is full of great successes ( and abysmal failures - Yamaha engine :-) ) Ken's team were the forebears of MANY F1 successful design ideas. The di-hedral was a HUGE success because it was used to allow the Tyrrell to run MUCH smaller side pods ( 50% ) and reduce drag. Unfortunately for the time they were so far down on power versus the rest of the competition that it only made the car mediocre. Once everyone understood it ( almost half a season later ) then all the cars were doing it. It wasn't the di-hedral that made the difference, it was the high nose that the dihedral allowed !! > It is interesting that there was no benefit to using 6 wheels when > Williams made a car a few years later using the same idea that was so > much faster than the competition in testing that FIA immediately > banned it. Granted the FW08 had 4 wheels in the rear, but the idea of > less drag/less lift/more grip was the same. The 4 wheels on the rear was ONLY about tyre footprint, it had nothing to do with drag. FIA limited WIDTH and diamter of rear tyres, so Frank's team did the logical thing to increase rear rubber footprint - run 4 wheels.

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> Final note, as far as setting up the P34 goes, it seemed to do ok when > Tyrrell had Jody Scheckter onboard. I wouldn't be surprised if its > failure in 77 had as much to do with Peterson's lack of testing/setup > ability as it did with flaws in the design itself. If goodyear had > given them more resources, and they had a skilled test driver like > Lauda or Andretti, I suspect the history of the P34 would be much > different.

It was a dead-end because suspension technology of the day was unable to cope with the dynamics. As the front wheel hit a bump they had great difficulty on one hand absorbing it and on the other positioning the second wheel to maximise grip. So often the rear tyre would lift when the front hit bumps. When this happened during cornering the car was a battle to steer. So set-up WAS critical, but I wouldn't say it was Ronnie's issue alone. I woulnd't consider a 1-2 at Anderstorp as the proof of a winning machine/driver. The following year to the P34 win, Matra managed it in the Ligier :-)

I'm a fan of it.. I'm not going to talk about any theoretical aerodynamic benefits or whatever like anyone else because I'm not an engineer or anything and I'm pretty sure Williams know what they are doing... I think it looks pretty darn cool and should be really interesting to see on the track.. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Careful Hack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DCGKb.80857$[email hidden]...

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> Wonder if all the teams will adopt this nose configuration... > > http://www.f1racing.net/launchphotogallery.php3?id=600 > > Glenn > > -- > ---------------------- > Remove NOSPAM to reply >

Jay J wrote: > I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and > suspended front wing under it. Uh, actually it was Tyrrell who came up with that first. We all noted at the time, just like we do this new Williams ;) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -21)

"Jay J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jjUKb.773803$Fm2.750426@attbi_s04... > At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (except this > new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing. ...and they're even uglier than that Benetton. ;-) -jde

Beleive me, if it wins it'll be the greatest looking car ever! :) "Mike Beauchamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm a fan of it.. I'm not going to talk about any theoretical aerodynamic > benefits or whatever like anyone else because I'm not an engineer or > anything and I'm pretty sure Williams know what they are doing... > > I think it looks pretty darn cool and should be really interesting to seeon > the track..

"Jay J"

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> I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and > suspended front wing under it. > At the time most thought it was ugly too, but now all F1 cars (except this > new Williams of course) have that style nose/wing. > > So... Maybe this is the new wave of the future.... > Then again, I also recall a 6 wheel Tyrell about 25 years ago that only > lasted one season ;-) > > >

I still think the raised nose cars are ugly. Call me old fashioned, but the pointy noses of the late 80's say 'racecar' to me more than these bug shaped thingies we have now. The closest comparision I can think of for the new Williams is an old CAN AM nose on the lola's. It had the same curvature. dave henrie

A good case could be made for March having it first with the 711. don "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:btiojv$kj1$[email hidden]...

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> Jay J wrote: > > I remember a decade ago when Benetton came out with the high nose and > > suspended front wing under it. > > Uh, actually it was Tyrrell who came up with that first. We all noted at > the time, just like we do this new Williams ;) > > Regards, Rudy > (GPLRank -21) >

You couldn't be corrector, sir. When that thing starts winning, it'll be the most beautiful car in F1 and everyone will be rushing to copy it. don "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Beleive me, if it wins it'll be the greatest looking car ever! :) > > "Mike Beauchamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I'm a fan of it.. I'm not going to talk about any theoreticalaerodynamic > > benefits or whatever like anyone else because I'm not an engineer or > > anything and I'm pretty sure Williams know what they are doing... > > > > I think it looks pretty darn cool and should be really interesting tosee > on > > the track.. > >

I agree. Then they'll paint the car as a viper (similar to Jordan's hornet) with the fangs sunk into the front wing. Just takes some getting used to I guess. Wayne "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:A0mLb.427477$J77.46681@fed1read07...

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> You couldn't be corrector, sir. > > When that thing starts winning, it'll be the most beautiful car in F1 and > everyone will be rushing to copy it. > > don > > "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Beleive me, if it wins it'll be the greatest looking car ever! :) > > > > "Mike Beauchamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > I'm a fan of it.. I'm not going to talk about any theoretical > aerodynamic > > > benefits or whatever like anyone else because I'm not an engineer or > > > anything and I'm pretty sure Williams know what they are doing... > > > > > > I think it looks pretty darn cool and should be really interesting to > see > > on > > > the track.. > > > > > >

"Wayne Stelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:rqWLb.428382$J77.400181@fed1read07: > I agree. Then they'll paint the car as a viper (similar to Jordan's hornet) > with the fangs sunk into the front wing. Just takes some getting used to I > guess. > > Wayne Frank Williams never struck me as the type of owner who would try fancy paint schemes. I suspect BMW pays a-lot of money to have a clean nose logo without any adornments..but you are right...a snake fang motif would go well there. dave henrie

BMW had some very creative (and strange!) paint schemes in their racing history; but, somehow, I don't see Frank and the sponsors going for it. Jim Dave Henrie wrote:

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>"Wayne Stelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:rqWLb.428382$J77.400181@fed1read07: > > > >>I agree. Then they'll paint the car as a viper (similar to Jordan's hornet) >>with the fangs sunk into the front wing. Just takes some getting used to I >>guess. >> >>Wayne >> >> > > Frank Williams never struck me as the type of owner who would >try fancy paint schemes. I suspect BMW pays a-lot of money to >have a clean nose logo without any adornments..but you are >right...a snake fang motif would go well there. > >dave henrie > >