What Will Make Them Happy?

There's a small group of familiar names (who should try meeting a girl occasionally) who seem to think they run r.a.s. What do you guys want? I want you to be happy so please tell me. Here's an example. I have posted four innocuous, GPL related posts in the last THREE MONTHS leading up to one the other day. GPL has been out for six months and I have had virtually NO COMMENT on it for half that time. I'm repeating this in my posts only because I see some new posts today still accusing me of ripping GPL. Those numbers don't seem to sink in. Two days ago I politely disagree with someone about GPL and then, predictably, VERY FAMILIAR names from the Papyrus group of cheerleaders immediately accuse me of "again and again ad infinitum" attacking GPL. They say I "obsessively" and "constantly" criticize it. They e-mail me with similiar comments. They immediately want to start an argument here at r.a.s. which MUST bore most of you. How does four posts over three months translate to the above? It would of been almost impossible for me to be LESS critical. What the he** is wrong with GPL/Papyrus fans? You guys pull this ***with so many people it's bizarre. You cry if GPL is criticized by anyone, especially in a review by a *** web site, yet you blungeon other sims, their developers/publishers, their fans, and eagerly provide links to reviews which you just happen to agree with. You wonder why some jokingly refer to you as a cult? How does the FACT that I've stated over, and over, and over, and over, that GPL is an excellent sim get ignored? Dumb question Dave. Is there some kind of rule that I need to repeat this with every third sentence in any GPL related posts? Should I put it in my sig line? Tell me what the rules are for GPL posting. I missed the meeting. As ymenard said, it's all politics. It's about cheerleading for your "candidate" and attacking any "opponent". Accuracy and fact are irrelevent. Emotion is everything. No wonder developers/publishers avoid it so much (Pat). They want facts, not melodrama. I only posted this as a perfect example of something that I've seen happen here so often. Distortion, exaggeration, and a disregard of the facts is used by some simply so they can make others see them as winners in a silly debate. You'd think that type of ***could at least be left out of discussions about sims. Do we really need it here too? As for the same "Papyrus 10" who have been trying to bust my balls (and failing miserably) for the past year and a half, why don't you simply put my name on your "ignore" list and be happy? The other r.a.s. users surely find the bickering tedious. Also, there may be a sim coming out pretty soon which I may say (gulp) is better than GPL. You don't want to have to suffer through that, do you? David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim. (my new sig line)

You really need to hang up the old paranoia. Take a holiday. The carribean is nice this time of year. Try taking a walk in the park, and whilst you do, remember these few words.... It's Only A Newsgroup, and It's Only a Game. OK... Oh, I do know a good therapist if that doesn't help. Doug

Dave, maybe this will make them happy, and you... Just let it slide, and read RAS with a smile :-) Just makes life easier because there will always be someone who disagrees with you, sometimes in a way that gets under your skin... as you know sometimes it can get ugly. Happy Racing! :-) --Dave <snip> -- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

snipped> stop being such a drama queen

> snipped> > stop being such a drama queen Dave Fisher has many years of sim experience, and I have raced him many times... normally looking at him disappearing over the horizon ahead of me! He makes many valid points re GPL, I have discussed GPL before with Dave... I am a complete GPL fan.... I also realise it is not perfect, but I think it is the best we have at the moment evan with its short comings.... many of the on-line problems are, I am afraid, symptomatic of the internet speed/bandwidth.... hopefully the forthcoming patch may improve some of the disconnection problems we experience on-line! Keep your thoughts coming Dave, I for one will always listen :) And don't take RAS to seriously.... life's to short! Dave Hawnt UK-GPL

Well said Dave!!!!!!!

yes there are some vehement, rose tinted, protectionist views/statements about GPL, usually by a familar set of names. But, hey - who gives a sh!t? chill baby, chill :) -Lindsay .....trimmed for economy....

> And don't >take RAS to seriously.... life's to short! >Dave Hawnt UK-GPL You know I don't do that. Impossible. I guess Doug and Andrew didn't notice that the original post was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Maybe I was to subtle for them. David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim.

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:38 -0500, "David G Fisher" >There's a small group of familiar names (who should try meeting a girl >occasionally) who seem to think they run r.a.s. Ok, that was a joke I suppose...though judging by the rest of the post, i'm not sure other ppl will take it as a joke or an insult. I'm certainly not bothered by it :) Yes, you are correct. The original post was polite(see below). But I can see how ppl will question your reasoning. <snip of your inital post> >>It's YEARS away from any multiplayer racing found in per example Papyrus >titles You're kidding, right? David G Fisher <unsnip> Now, this is a poorly written post. Polite, but poorly written. It states an opinion. But, it does not support it with facts, or experience. What did you expect the other posters to do? Your known by alot of people as having fairly strong view about just about anything. Yes, I have even disagreed with you on a different topic, "Am I a top sim racer" Yes, you have stated in this post, gpl is a excellent sim. But back in your the inital post(the one above), ppl would have gone on your previous view, regardless if it was only 4 posts. Good paragraph. But they do have some reason. Gpl is a great sim. But yes, I agree with you. There are ppl that will bludgeon other sims and their developers, though it's not just restricted to papyrus sims. You do get this alot more from the papyrus supporters, because gpl is the most advanced sim of the moment. A widely held view, supported by the majority of RAS, and the online sim community. Just look at the number of gpl posts daily compared to other sims. But, have you noticed that this bludgeoning is not just against the non-papy believers? (i'm not refereing to you). Recently the SCGT demo was released. Alot of ppl posted very fast how ***the game is. Alot of people liked it though. The flame wars about SCGT where shortlived, but a good example of other sims getting bludgeoned. Unfortunately, this is very hypocritical. < snip from earlier in this post> <unsnip> Accuracy and fact are missing from the above paragraph. Opinion and humour(sarcasm maybe) are the only thing prevalent that I can see <snip number 2> <unsnip> Firstly, accuracy. No you are not required to repeat the line that you think "gpl is excelent" There are no rules to gpl posting There was no meeting. To me, these 2 paragraphs are full of emotion. Plain and simple. Ask yourself. Do they convey facts? Quote from above, "Silly debate". How do you expect people to take this? If you think it is a silly debate, why bother posting? You are correct, we don't need exaggeration, distortion, and a disregard of the facts. I certainly hope there is a sim better than gpl. Hopefully gp3 will be out soon :))) Ok, i've stated my opinion. Most importantly, i've been supporting my opinion, with facts and experiences. I believe I that it is unbiased, though some may diagree. That's ok. I even agreed with you on some points, David :) And disagreed on others. You made some good points, supported them with experieces and facts. But there was far too many paragraphs that where purely sarcasm or humour. Something that is the complete opposite of what you want in posts. Namely, accuracy and facts. Ok, while i'm here, I though I would ask David a question (Phrased in the essay kind of way to be as unbiased as possilbe) Now that Ian Lake has won the GPL World Series online competition against the likes of George Sandman and Wolfgang Woeger. Can he be regarded as a top sim racer? Has his online experience and achievements now fullfilled his requirements to be a top sim racer? Please discuss and show examples why or why not. Ian Lake /\ David knows the history of the last part. I'm just wondering if he has changed his views? He seemed quite addament when this was discussed ages ago, that I could not be regarded to be a top sim racer, because I was not an experienced online racer. /\

>Now that Ian Lake has won the GPL World Series online competition >against the likes of George Sandman and Wolfgang Woeger. >Can he be regarded as a top sim racer? Has his online experience and >achievements now fullfilled his requirements to be a top sim racer? >Please discuss and show examples why or why not. Heh. How can someone who blew TWO engine's in only SIX laps to be considered a top sim racer? <Duck, Run and Hide> Mwuhahaha Remco

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:38 -0500, "David G Fisher" >There's a small group of familiar names (who should try meeting a girl >occasionally) who seem to think they run r.a.s. >What do you guys want? I want you to be happy so please tell me. Pout, stamp, flounce - easy on the melodrama, please. David, until this post I honestly thought you took this, as I do, very much tongue in cheek. If you really do feel so persecuted then you honestly need to take some of your own advice. If someone disagrees with you it's really not important. I hope it was tongue in cheek, if not I'm concerned...! Cheers! John

> There's a small group of familiar names (who should try meeting a girl > occasionally) That's what I keep telling my wife!!! :) -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

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> On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:38 -0500, "David G Fisher" > >Emotion is > >everything. No wonder developers/publishers avoid it so much (Pat). They > >want facts, not melodrama. > Unfortunately, this is very hypocritical.

Hypocritical, and WRONG! Dave is the one being dramatic. No one "runs" r.a.s. No one (short of menard) ever even _thought_ they ran it :) USENET is about debate - debate is about finding the truth. What is frustrating about Dave is not his opinions, or his statements. It is his utter lack of ability to let new information shape his opinions. His above comment (directed at me) is a perfect example. I, and others, have listed to Dave the game developers who post to this group DAILY!!! Yet in Dave's mind, they "avoid it like the plague". Repeating obviously false statements like that one over and over is not only annoying, but it kills credibility. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

> No wonder developers/publishers avoid it so much (Pat). They > want facts, not melodrama. hey, we don't avoid R.A.S., in fact, we like reading it. It's such a great substitute for Days Of Our Lives, Young And The Restless, etc... ;)

Hehe. I was having a really bad day with the Honda at Kyalami and blew my qualifying engine after 2 laps :-) Well, at least I moved to 3rd on the grid :-D My race engine expired as well, but I forget how many laps it took. I've never blown an Eagle engine. This is wierd. It all started about 2 weeks ago. Maybe its the change in seasons causing this to happen, or my high-school mechanics ;-) Jason.

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> >Heh. How can someone who blew TWO engine's in only SIX laps to be > >considered a top sim racer? > Oh come on. I've gotta have some bad days in between all those wins > :o))) > Ian > /\ > 2 engines, 6 laps. That's my record :) I think alot of ppl have beat > it though :) > /\ > ><Duck, Run and Hide> > >Mwuhahaha > >Remco

-- -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

LOL!

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>> There's a small group of familiar names (who should try meeting a girl >> occasionally) >That's what I keep telling my wife!!! :) >-- >Pat Dotson >IMPACT Motorsports >http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I don't believe the "Papyrus 10" would tolerate an inferior product if a better sim becomes available. I believe sim racers simply want the most perfect product - loyalty will go out the window if Company X produces a genuine GPL beater. As it stands Papyrus & GPL are simply at the top - with the rest some way behind IMHO. I don't think this stops Papyrus wanting to better themselves or become complacent - or that we are complacent in not pushing Papyrus for more. The good relationship stands between Papyrus & RAS not by accident, or clever marketing by a pro Papyrus-group, but by a long standing respect developed over many years. The result is the majority of RAS wish to coerce Papyrus into developing their products further via constructive dialogue, hence the apparent favouratism towards them. Hopefully we all benefit from this. Like I said, if a true GPL beater comes along, we are fickle enough to forget about Papyrus and move on - I am fickle enough to say I would love to be surprised if we had another quantum leap similar to that GPL provided us with - but I very much doubt it. Cheers Tony BTW - You haven't got a Betamax VCR have you?

> There's a small group of familiar names (who should try meeting a girl > occasionally) who seem to think they run r.a.s. What, and waste time away from GPL? :-) Marty

>On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:38 -0500, "David G Fisher" >Pout, stamp, flounce - easy on the melodrama, please. I know it's a very common technique on a newsgroup but please don't attempt to take the high rode by accusing me of melodrama, and scolding me for a complaint. Especially since you caused most of this by insisting I constantly attack GPL "again and again ad infinitum" when I've shown you that I've actually been virtually silent for three months. See my reply to Dave Hawnt from last night. My exact words were, "the original post was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Maybe I was too subtle for them." In case you haven't noticed, most of my posts are written this way since this is a newsgroup about sims, and not about finding a way to end world hunger. Maybe I was too subtle for you as well. Or, like I said in the first paragraph, maybe once again you just want to try and embarrass me. It's pretty simple John. It is ridiculous that I cannot post anything GPL related without the same names constantly jumping in with responses claiming I rip their baby unfairly, and constantly, when the facts are that I have been virtually silent about it for months. I can't figure you guys out. I certainly don't understand the MELODRAMATIC responses I get to my (GPL/Papyrus only) posts. David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim.

LOL ;-) As for this : I "somehow" said that when I wanted to represent r.a.s. in terms of political debates since this is more than just a normal place where people emit their opinion.. It's similar to a real independent board in real-life, where people will indeed read us as if we were a serious game reviewer. We have a much bigger voice of opinion that what people think.. we just don't know how many hits we have here :) -- -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Virtual silence hmm - must be some new fangled internet newsgroup term Now we have virtual repetition & virtual boredom to add to the glossary

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>On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:38 -0500, "David G Fisher" >You're kidding, right? >David G Fisher ><unsnip> >Now, this is a poorly written post. Polite, but poorly written. >It states an opinion. But, it does not support it with facts, or >experience.

Actually, it's a question. No. I'm sure that 90% of the people at r.a.s. don't recognize my name. The majority of people who I correspond with or have raced against would probably never describe me that way at all. I haven't even posted at r.a.s. very much in recent months until the last few days. That doesn't sound like the behavior of a person at r.a.s. with very strong opinions. I stated that many times in the past too. Guys like ymenard,John and the other Papyrus groupies like to ignore that so they can b**ch. I get it from the SAME Papyrus supporters. That's the point of my original post. 99% of the GPL fans at r.a.s are what I'd call "normal". Yes, it's sarcastic. I figured I could at least be a little sarcastic considering how people have been lying about what I've posted. Can I require that certain people remember this fact from here on out before they bust my ba**s again in any future posts? Like I said before, I've repeatedly stated it's an excellent sim, but it (conveniently) won't sink in. More sarcasm actually. I said those methods are used at r.a.s. to win silly debates. John W. was hoping my posts WERE tongue-in-cheek. You won't like it if I say that's true. I don't know what to do. Is there another Ian Lake? Memories. I have no idea if you are a top online racer. There's many, many, many, talented people out there spread out among many, many, titles. I'd guess you are. I know exactly what conversation you are referring to. If you remember correctly, others agreed with me, and you did too to an extent, that there was a big difference between online racing and hotlapping. Just like there is a big difference between Schumacher qualifying, and racing. I also said that I had no reason whatsoever to doubt you would do well online. Why would I? I remember you stating that your hotlapping would benefit you because you would get the poll. You probably just took advantage of (or caused) the inevitable first corner pileup and then went into that hotlap mode (sarcasm). I'd still bet on George in any race. :-P I think you were a little sensitive to what myself and others were saying. We were talking more about the differences between hotlapping and online racing. I dont think it's wise to discuss how good an individual is or is not in sims. People will only get upset. There are also too many variables which can't be seen. I will say that there are people like George who who I firmly believe is fantastic because his talent is TOO obvious. There are many others who simply practice so much that they can't help but burn every movement of their hands and feet into their subconscious. The amount of hours some put into a sim is unreal. Someone else with a fraction of the practice time can step in and challenge them. That's what I consider a great sim racer/athlete/artist/etc. Natural talent. A lot of 15 year olds can play VH's Eruption perfectly. That doesn't make them a great guitar player. David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim.

>Now we have virtual repetition & virtual boredom to add to the glossary Glad you understand Tony. It definitely is repetitive and boring to listen to these guys bi** and cry about any GPL criticism. Do you think they'll finally stop now? Do you like sarcasm too? David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim.

Looks to me David your the one BUSTIN BALLS... You are coming off like an A$$. Keep it up!! You will have noone to talk to! Wayne

I shouldn't taint you by replying, but LOL! :-) Andrew McP

Cmon David... Do you really expect me and you to do a serious conversation like we are enemies? my post are full of ";)" and ";-D" or <insert XYZ smiley> I know you like GPL . You even know (I think from a email) I like MGPRS2 (Eh Ronald surprise eh ? :-D ). I will *** sometimes at Ubisoft, the same as you do at Papyrus sometimes. So what's wrong here ? nothing... we're having fun on a serious level. having fun on a serious level.. bingo -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Guess I missed off virtual last word

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>>Now we have virtual repetition & virtual boredom to add to the glossary >Glad you understand Tony. It definitely is repetitive and boring to listen >to these guys bi** and cry about any GPL criticism. Do you think they'll >finally stop now? Do you like sarcasm too? >David G Fisher >GPL is an excellent sim.

Big minds talk about ideas. Average minds talk about events. Small minds talk about people. Marty

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> >On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:38 -0500, "David G Fisher" > >Pout, stamp, flounce - easy on the melodrama, please. > I know it's a very common technique on a newsgroup but please don't attempt > to take the high rode by accusing me of melodrama, and scolding me for a > complaint. Especially since you caused most of this by insisting I > constantly attack GPL "again and again ad infinitum" when I've shown you > that I've actually been virtually silent for three months. > >David, until this post I honestly thought you took this, as I do, very > >much tongue in cheek. If you really do feel so persecuted then you > >honestly need to take some of your own advice. If someone disagrees > >with you it's really not important. > See my reply to Dave Hawnt from last night. My exact words were, "the > original post was written > with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Maybe I was too subtle for them." > In case you haven't noticed, most of my posts are written this way since > this is a newsgroup about sims, and not about finding a way to end world > hunger. Maybe I was too subtle for you as well. Or, like I said in the first > paragraph, maybe once again you just want to try and embarrass me. > It's pretty simple John. It is ridiculous that I cannot post anything GPL > related without the same names constantly jumping in with responses claiming > I rip their baby unfairly, and constantly, when the facts are that I have > been virtually silent about it for months. > I can't figure you guys out. I certainly don't understand the MELODRAMATIC > responses I get to my (GPL/Papyrus only) posts. > David G Fisher > GPL is an excellent sim.

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>Cmon David... >Do you really expect me and you to do a serious conversation like we are >enemies? my post are full of ";)" and ";-D" or <insert XYZ smiley> >I know you like GPL . You even know (I think from a email) I like MGPRS2 >(Eh Ronald surprise eh ? :-D ). I will *** sometimes at Ubisoft, the

same >as you do at Papyrus sometimes. So what's wrong here ? nothing... we're >having fun on a serious level. >having fun on a serious level.. bingo You're right. It is kind of funny that a certain group of people would insist I'm a obsessed, incessant, harsh, and unfair critic of GPL even though I consider it an an excellent sim and barely said a word about it for months. David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim.

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>>Now that Ian Lake has won the GPL World Series online competition >>against the likes of George Sandman and Wolfgang Woeger. >>Can he be regarded as a top sim racer? Has his online experience and >>achievements now fullfilled his requirements to be a top sim racer? >>Please discuss and show examples why or why not. >Heh. How can someone who blew TWO engine's in only SIX laps to be >considered a top sim racer?

Oh come on. I've gotta have some bad days in between all those wins :o))) Ian /\ 2 engines, 6 laps. That's my record :) I think alot of ppl have beat it though :) /\

Hehe, that's nothing, I've killed two Lotus engines on the first lap at Rouenn, one on the grid (causing a major pileup when everyone behind started and I didn't) and one when I hit the trees. Six laps of my driving would take all of the Stewart Ford engines from last year :) I learned to lift off the gas on the gearchanges :) -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 >Hehe. I was having a really bad day with the Honda at Kyalami and blew my >qualifying engine after 2 laps :-) Well, at least I moved to 3rd on the >grid :-D My race engine expired as well, but I forget how many laps it >took. >I've never blown an Eagle engine. This is wierd. It all started about 2 >weeks ago. Maybe its the change in seasons causing this to happen, or my >high-school mechanics ;-) >Jason. >> >Heh. How can someone who blew TWO engine's in only SIX laps to be >> >considered a top sim racer? >> Oh come on. I've gotta have some bad days in between all those wins >> :o))) >> Ian >> /\ >> 2 engines, 6 laps. That's my record :) I think alot of ppl have beat >> it though :) >> /\

No don't tell them it's a game. They say it's a sim.

<most of the post snipped> I'm amazed David :) And actually very pleased :)))) Not only did you provide good arguments, but you also supported them with facts and experience :) All facts where correct, and well stated with examples. It was a very good post :) I'm still a bit shocked by your ability to construct your arguments properly. I though it was not possible. Now, if you applied that to all other posts you make in the future, you may still get a hard time from the papy cheergroup (and others), but other people will listen and respect your views. I know i've changed my view on you. Previously, I saw you as a arrogant extremist (sorry :). But today you have displayed the complete opposite! Well done! :))) Shhhh, don't tell anyone that I barely get 5-10hours a week in gpl.... Ian <most of the post snipped> I'm amazed David :) And actually very pleased :)))) Not only did you provide good arguments, but you also supported them with facts and experience :) All facts where correct, and well stated with examples. It was a very good post :) I'm still a bit shocked by your ability to construct your arguments properly. I though it was not possible. Now, if you applied that to all other posts you make in the future, you may still get a hard time from the papy cheergroup (and others), but other people will listen and respect your views. I know i've changed my view on you. Previously, I saw you as a arrogant extremist (sorry :). But today you have displayed the complete opposite! Well done! :))) Shhhh, don't tell anyone that I barely get 5-10hours a week in gpl.... Ian

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:58:18 -0500, "David G Fisher" >I know it's a very common technique on a newsgroup but please don't attempt >to take the high rode by accusing me of melodrama, and scolding me for a >complaint. Especially since you caused most of this by insisting I >constantly attack GPL "again and again ad infinitum" when I've shown you >that I've actually been virtually silent for three months. "Oh, ye'll tak the high rode, and I'll tak the low rode" as we, er, don't sing in Scotland. You could have stayed silent on the subject as everyone else was doing. If you insinst on airing your views in public you know that others will present the contrary view. It's also clear from the flurry of messages what exception you take to this. Still, let's not regress to "It was him mummy". Oh rubbish. You post one view (to someone who didn't want to hear it) and others post a different view. That's democratic debate. I don't see anyone slamming you for holding that view, just disagreeing with it. If recently people have stopped posting their views and politely asking you to give it a rest posting yours might give an indication of how old it's getting. We don't need to explain it to you of course, since this is only tongue in cheek. Right....? Cheers! John

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:26:56 -0500, "David G Fisher" >I stated that many times in the past too. Guys like ymenard,John and the >other Papyrus groupies like to ignore that so they can b**ch. You choose to believe that since it satisfies this "underdog" position you seem to cling to. Fact is that no-one is disagreeing with you holding a particular point of view, thinking GPL is excellent or anything of the like. There are particular issues that you have crusaded about in the past, and since I see these areas as lacking the majority of flaws you paint them with I feel compelled to present that view in the interest of fairness. I do the same with any other person and any other sim, but you choose to see this as about "you" and your views on GPL. I'm sure Freud would have something to say on the subject. There's an area where we agree totally. Not only on sims, but EVH as well! :-) Cheers! John

If someone has the ability to be persistent to archieve a goal, and has the discipline to put many hours at it, I would say it is a talent, aswell. If someone has the talent "for free", you can hardly say they've earned it. Remco

I apologize for butting in, but 5 to 10 hours a week? Well, you must be talented.

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>>I dont think it's wise to discuss how good an individual is or is not in >>sims. People will only get upset. There are also too many variables which >>can't be seen. I will say that there are people like George who who I firmly >>believe is fantastic because his talent is TOO obvious. There are many >>others who simply practice so much that they can't help but burn every >>movement of their hands and feet into their subconscious. The amount of >>hours some put into a sim is unreal. Someone else with a fraction of the >>practice time can step in and challenge them. That's what I consider a great >>sim racer/athlete/artist/etc. Natural talent. A lot of 15 year olds can play >>VH's Eruption perfectly. That doesn't make them a great guitar player. >If someone has the ability to be persistent to archieve a goal, and >has the discipline to put many hours at it, I would say it is a >talent, aswell. If someone has the talent "for free", you can hardly >say they've earned it. >Remco

Quite true. The way in which you approach the game is the key wether you're talented or not. And as for talent in GPL, well, I don't think you would brand yourself talented until you manage a good setup, which will require quite a few laps at the end of the day. But one word rings in my ears everytime I think of GPL, and that is CONSISTENCY. If you can't reproduce your best time and time again then all the talent in the world is useless. We are in a sense teaching ourselves a new skill, driving a GPL car. Look at snooker, it requires a lot of accuracy and all the top 16 players are have it perhaps as good as each othe, but who are the winners? Davis, Hendry, Higgins not O'Sullivan. It might seem odd compaing GPL to snooker, but both require consistency, and a lot of commitment to be able to produce your best again and again. I would class professional snooker far more difficult of course, but we don't want to go down that road... I can drive the Lotus quite fast for my standard nowadays, but sooner or later I end up making a mistake. But I have managed 30 laps before, I just don't think you could achieve consistency without a lot of hours. Or is consistency a talent in itslef? if so, I am definitely not talented. At least for GPL anyway. Cheers.

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> >Cmon David... > >Do you really expect me and you to do a serious conversation like we are > >enemies? my post are full of ";)" and ";-D" or <insert XYZ smiley> > >I know you like GPL . You even know (I think from a email) I like MGPRS2 > >(Eh Ronald surprise eh ? :-D ). I will *** sometimes at Ubisoft, the > same > >as you do at Papyrus sometimes. So what's wrong here ? nothing... we're > >having fun on a serious level. > >having fun on a serious level.. bingo > You're right. It is kind of funny that a certain group of people would > insist I'm a obsessed, incessant, harsh, and unfair critic of GPL even > though I consider it an an excellent sim and barely said a word about it for > months.

And remember, I'm one of the few guys complaining about another guy constantly dissing this modern F1 sim by ObiSoft (inside joke for German readers)... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

John Wallace and Ronald Stoehr wrote : lol ;-) May the Force be with you John!. I have no idea if the hype in UK is as big as here in North America, but still Im sorry you will need to wait until July 16th to see the movie, as it doesn't open in an International release ;( For those who don't live in NAmerica and would like to know when it will open in their country, look at this URL : http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/news/trailer/international/ And it will please the r.a.s. citizens since it has a race in the movie (with announcers, pitstops, alot of passing, drafting, crashing, etc... !) -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/

As Obi-Wan would say : "Run John, Run!" to your video store. You can skip ET because it's mostly a cuty movie made by Speilberg only for the $, but Star Wars ? agh cmon :) And to make you happy, Ewan McGregor is in Episode 1, so why don't you go help a fellow of you and go rent the trilogy someday. Episode 1 is the most anticipated movie in history, so if there is at least 1 movie to go see, check it out. The Thing is nice also.. Carpenter at his best. Im a movie geek also eh ;-) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You are correct. Developing your own setup, for which you can drive comfortably and consistantly is a key step to driving gpl. You can shortcut it though. Download some setups off the web, and find a driver whos setups seem comfortable to drive in a race situation. This may be hard, because the majority of setups are designed for hotlapping and not racing. (FYI, My hotlap setups are actually race setups :) I do believe consistancy is a talent in itself. It can be taught to a fair degree. But you can always tell the ppl who have that magic something, that allows them to finish race after race. And i'm not just talking about the fast guys who have consistancy. I'm also talking about those ppl who can drive their way into podium positions, just by sheer ability to keep the car on the black stuff, and out of trouble. I've seen this on vroc numerous times, and in general motor racing on tv. Then you get the drivers that rock up to a track, do a couple of laps, and start doing lap records, not only in practice mode, but during the qual and race. They have both consistancy and speed. A lethal combination. e.g. Shumacher, Senna, Prost Ian

>I apologize for butting in, but 5 to 10 hours a week? >Well, you must be talented. I normally don't have time or the energy to race on weekdays as I work fulltime, and also have uni lectures. So usually I only get to race on weekends. But so far this week i've spent 5 hours on gpl, doing the 2 of the new NTT series races. I hope to get a few hours in before tommorrow nights GPLWS race2 at kyalami, then I have the NTT final on sunday morning. It may be a busy week for gpl. I might manage 15 hours if i'm lucky :) Ian

>And remember, I'm one of the few guys complaining about another guy constantly >dissing this modern F1 sim by ObiSoft (inside joke for German readers)... ;^) Mind you, if you call it OBI-soft Francois will probably love it... Cheers! John

That's okay, I'll live - I haven't even seen "Star Wars" yet, never mind any of the follow-ups! :-) I'm probably the only person on the planet not to have seen ET either. I watched "The Thing" several times though, all the looks of ET but a far more entertaining "space visitor" :-) Cheers! John

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> On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:10:38 -0500, "David G Fisher" > >There's a small group of familiar names (who should try meeting a girl > >occasionally) who seem to think they run r.a.s. > >What do you guys want? I want you to be happy so please tell me.

<snip> <snip> <snip>.... Blimey.... the thread on this post is long enough to make large cardigan! ;-) Dave Hawnt UK-GPL

> >And remember, I'm one of the few guys complaining about another guy constantly > >dissing this modern F1 sim by ObiSoft (inside joke for German readers)... ;^) > Mind you, if you call it OBI-soft Francois will probably love it... Hey, you've got it, by god, you've got it... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Hey Dave, when's your autobiography being published. That's what you've been working on the last few months right? We all just can't wait to rush out and get it!

Hey Byron. What took you so long? Been closing in on your 1,000,000th lap around Spa? I'm glad to see that all the same guys/Papy cheerleaders who I expect to respond to my posts with their usual load of ***have now done so. Maybe we can bore r.a.s. with this for ANOTHER year? David G Fisher GPL is an excellent sim. >Hey Dave, when's your autobiography being published. That's what >you've been working on the last few months right? We all just can't wait >to rush out and get it!

It is "a talent", it's not the same talent. If Schumacher turns a 1:20 at a particular track on his first lap out of the pits and you do so only after 500 laps of practice, you can't say you are now as good as he is. Cheers! John

I feel that we are talking about two different things here, talent vs. skill. If one driver obtains a track record within a few laps of going out, thats talent. If another driver matches that record after 500 laps of practice, thats skill. talent is a gift, skill is learned. IMHO.

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>> It is "a talent", it's not the same talent. If Schumacher turns a 1:20 >> at a particular track on his first lap out of the pits and you do so >> only after 500 laps of practice, you can't say you are now as good as >> he is. >> Cheers! >> John > You could if he was still only doing 1.20s at the time though :)

It definitely is repetitive and boring to listen |to these guys bi** and cry about any GPL criticism. Look at you, you are crying about everyone else right now and then criticize everyone else of crying. Con, stop being such a hypocrite with everything you say.

No you couldn't - you would still only be able to be as good as him if you had 500 laps of practice available, which cannot always be assumed to be the case (indeed would never be the case). Yours pedantically, John :-)

On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:36:02 GMT, "5th Doctor"

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>I feel that we are talking about two different things here, talent vs. >skill. >If one driver obtains a track record within a few laps of going out, thats >talent. >If another driver matches that record after 500 laps of practice, thats >skill. >talent is a gift, skill is learned. IMHO.

Using your definitions I would say that the former has both, the latter has only one. Cheers! John

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> It is "a talent", it's not the same talent. If Schumacher turns a 1:20 > at a particular track on his first lap out of the pits and you do so > only after 500 laps of practice, you can't say you are now as good as > he is. > Cheers! > John

You could if he was still only doing 1.20s at the time though :)

agreed

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>On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:36:02 GMT, "5th Doctor" >>I feel that we are talking about two different things here, talent vs. >>skill. >>If one driver obtains a track record within a few laps of going out, thats >>talent. >>If another driver matches that record after 500 laps of practice, thats >>skill. >>talent is a gift, skill is learned. IMHO. >Using your definitions I would say that the former has both, the >latter has only one. >Cheers! >John

On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:03:43 -0000, "Tony Rickard" >I don't believe the "Papyrus 10" would tolerate an inferior product if a >better sim becomes available. I doubt these mythical "Papyrus 10" wouldn't tolerate an inferior product whether a better sim comes along or not. The way people's selective memory works in never more apparent than when trying to construct an argument here to support their delusions. A quick search on Dejanews would reveal that I gave NR'99 an equal panning alongside MGPRS2, since IMO both of them have more than a slight smell of a lot more money for not very much more product - if such things do not fit with the impression being expounded they are conveniently ignored. Why use facts and reasoned arguments when you can force everything into pre-defined pigeon-holes instead, eh? I'm not sure of that. I still really enjoy GP2 and wouldn't "slam" it just because GPL is light years ahead - it's still an excellent product for it's time. That said, I haven't played GP2 for years. If the issue is "loyalty" then the only loyalty is to whatever product provides the greatest enjoyment at that time. If the issue is criticism (known in these parts as "slamming", however constructively it is written) then I personally will only criticise a product if it fails to live up to what was promised, offers poor value for money or otherwise fails to deliver. You can't criticise a product for not being as good as one released many months or years later. Neither of these are really the issue of course, since what the "Papyrus 10" do to cause such anguish is to be unable to see the glaring flaws in GPL. This is classified elsewhere in the world as a difference of opinion, but around here is known as "cheerleading". Define "top". As a complete product I don't think Papyrus can be beaten, but OTOH I think in many detailed aspects much can be learned from others. The sims lack accessibility (particularly GPL with a steep learning curve and closed structure for race setup), sound is a weaker point, and an area in which CPR excelled IMO. Race options and frills are lacking, like tables of fastest laps at each circuit and the like - all the things you see on lots of webpages. Those are there because we want them. Online and multiplayer play could be seen to be behind competition - I personally don't think so, since I have a clearly defined idea of what online play should be and how it should operate (no kludges, no smoothing, let the chips fall where they may) but many others prefer online play to be as smooth and seamless as possible and allow interpolation or prediction to interfere to achieve that - if that is your preference then others (like Powerslide, MTM2 etc) are ahead. A double-edged sword though - woe-betide anyone who thinks r.a.s. is a representative sample of the market as a whole, I don't think it is. Moreover we're a small voice, and all the enthusiasm in the world around here won't carry very far. The slaking the thirst of r.a.s. may not satisfy the desires of the rest of the market, and you need to satisfy the latter initially, and r.a.s. after that. Undoubtedly - look at the shift to GP2 when it was released after ICR2. I'll happily buy and race GP3 and if it kicks GPL's ***up and down the shops and is another leap forward I'll be delighted. Delighted because I've got another great sim and delighted because I know that Papyrus will in turn beat GP3, and that all of the others will need to raise their standards as well, regardless of whether they can surpass GP3. Cheers! John

>steep learning curve and closed structure for race setup), sound is a >weaker point, and an area in which CPR excelled IMO. Race options and I find that the sound in GPL is one of it's shiny points. You're entitled to your opinion tho. I will agree that the sound in CPR was great, but IIRC it lacked the good relation between sound pitch and RPMs that GPL conveys so well. Frank Francois Dubuc, Simulator ***world, [link lost in import: /***world/]

>I find that the sound in GPL is one of it's shiny points. You're >entitled to your opinion tho. I will agree that the sound in CPR was >great, but IIRC it lacked the good relation between sound pitch and >RPMs that GPL conveys so well. Sound in GPL was definitely one of Papyrus better efforts, but the downloadable sounds from the 'net are' IMO, way better than the originals. The originals sound a bit weak except for the Ferrari. CPR did miss a good link between pitch and rpm, but to an extent the turbo masks the sound (as it does in real life) as it spools up and down. I don't know however if this is actually modelled in CPR or is just fortunate coincidence! Sounds good though, nice meaty sound. Whether it's real or not is a moot point but it sounds like WE think a racecar should, and perception is more important than reality in the majority of cases. Cheers! John