Cart Precision Racing

Hmmm....strange, but after playing GPL for months I returned to CPR and...it was fun! Months ago I thought it sucked really bad, but once I had learned to perfectly handle the car (thanks to GPL!) even the AI wasn't much of a problem anymore (as long as you stay on the groove they react flawlessly). Is there a possibility to setup the brake pedal to allow more travel before locking the brakes? Are there still any CPR fans left? Mea***er www.mea***er.de

Okay, let me install it and see what happens. I was a CPR fan until F1RS, RS2 and GPL came along. I fear I won't like the results... Hmm, now to clear a million megs from my HD... Rob

Oh forget it, I mean, no yellows? I can't belive I came that close.... again.... Rob

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:25:24 +0100, "Mea***er" >Hmmm....strange, but after playing GPL for months I returned to CPR and...it >was fun! Months ago I thought it sucked really bad, but once I had learned >to perfectly handle the car (thanks to GPL!) even the AI wasn't much of a >problem anymore (as long as you stay on the groove they react flawlessly). >Is there a possibility to setup the brake pedal to allow more travel before >locking the brakes? Are there still any CPR fans left? I tried using it the other day (inspired by the Homestead race, I suppose), and realized just how bad the steering parameters are- and no matter where I slid the two bars (non-linear and speed-proportional adjustments), I never found a satisfactory setting to drive cleanly around homestead. I don't think it is me- in GPL, I am in the 1:04s at the Glenn, 1:28s at Monza, almost in the 1:25s at Zandvoort... I couldn't even do a clean lap at Homestead. I think there is a workable sim in there- but not the experience of what puts it all together at MS to achieve something like GPL or even ICR2. Sort of frustrating, really- I get the sense it could have been a winner with just some attention to what sim users here could offer.

It is you. Myself and others were able to consistently lap within a few tenths of the best time possible. The steering was precise. Each lap was identical. David G Fisher

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>I tried using it the other day (inspired by the Homestead race, I >suppose), and realized just how bad the steering parameters are- and >no matter where I slid the two bars (non-linear and speed-proportional >adjustments), I never found a satisfactory setting to drive cleanly >around homestead. I don't think it is me- in GPL, I am in the 1:04s at >the Glenn, 1:28s at Monza, almost in the 1:25s at Zandvoort... I >couldn't even do a clean lap at Homestead.

Oh, but GUYS! There's no FULL COURSE yellows....! It makes me want to weep ...the fact that such a company as Microsoft can leave out a fundamental piece of CART's competition and heritage! (Is that okay to say... heritage, I mean is it correct?) No point in arguing about the rest of it! Rob

> It is you. Myself and others were able to consistently lap within a few > tenths of the best time possible. The steering was precise. Each lap was > identical. It is your system. On my computer and others, steering was horrible. As with other aspects of the apallingly bad CARTPR, MS/TRI did not properly test the software on all common system configurations. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Well I have found someone I agree with on CPR in this newsgroup. Ovals never seemed to be a problem, even running at Elkhart Lake it was easy to keep car going straight down the long straights and to stay flat in 6th thru the kink onthe back straight. that and running 1:31s at Elkhart you need good steering. Dave

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> It is you. Myself and others were able to consistently lap within a few > tenths of the best time possible. The steering was precise. Each lap was > identical. > David G Fisher > >I tried using it the other day (inspired by the Homestead race, I > >suppose), and realized just how bad the steering parameters are- and > >no matter where I slid the two bars (non-linear and speed-proportional > >adjustments), I never found a satisfactory setting to drive cleanly > >around homestead. I don't think it is me- in GPL, I am in the 1:04s at > >the Glenn, 1:28s at Monza, almost in the 1:25s at Zandvoort... I > >couldn't even do a clean lap at Homestead.

It runs very well on my PacBell P1 233mhz with no L2 cache. It got worlds better graphics wise when I put in the Voodoo 2 Card too. Dave

My feelings about CPR :- BTW both machines used the TRI Glide patch and the game was patched. On my old P166 with a TM F1 wheel the steering was terrible, with my P2 333 and MS FF wheel it's tolerable, just doesnt seem as though the amount of steering input has a proportionate effect on the road wheels, Ubi's sims, GP2 and Papy sims all seems to model this accurately. It seems as though the car pushes all the time. The brake pedal requires more feel, we dont have pressure sensitive pedals in a sim setup so a fraction of the pedal movement available will lock the wheels solid making braking very difficult, the car will stop much faster using the ABS feature, which IMHO is wrong. They should have used a system where the further you depress the pedal the more "pressure" the game sees, so that we could modulate it easier. The graphics although they look OK, are very difficult to judge distances to corners, sometimes you can't even see which way the corner is going to turn until you're commited (Australia is a good example of this) also I think the sense of speed is wrong, too fast. The front tyres (tires) look like balloons. The cars seem to float and dont seem "real" The AI will try to drive through you if you spin even though they are on a straight and can see you for a long time, they just wont give up until you get out of the way, they will race hard from behind and then slow down for you to catch them up. Oh yes, No full course yellows :) All IMHO. -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:43:53 -0500, "David G Fisher" >It is you. So you would say CPR did an adequate job on how the relate steering input to car reaction, I take it. Maybe I am just used to Papy and Crammond sims. But this one made me work too hard to learn it's particular steering-to-car relationship. What controller are you using?

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>>I tried using it the other day (inspired by the Homestead race, I >>suppose), and realized just how bad the steering parameters are- and >>no matter where I slid the two bars (non-linear and speed-proportional >>adjustments), I never found a satisfactory setting to drive cleanly >>around homestead. I don't think it is me- in GPL, I am in the 1:04s at >>the Glenn, 1:28s at Monza, almost in the 1:25s at Zandvoort... I >>couldn't even do a clean lap at Homestead.

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:48:01 -0000, "Ian Parker" >My feelings about CPR :- >BTW both machines used the TRI Glide patch and the game was patched. >On my old P166 with a TM F1 wheel the steering was terrible, with my P2 333 >and MS FF wheel it's tolerable, just doesnt seem as though the amount of >steering input has a proportionate effect on the road wheels, FF might indeed make it somewhat better, I'd think. After all, 1/2 of racing is feel, and much of that is G force and road-feedback to the wheel. I think this is why coming up with a very good or at least very configurable non-linear steering algorithm is so crucial for sims- because they don't have the feedback on the wheel. Well, until recently ;-) I don't think MS ended up with a good steering (and braking) algorithm- sort of like a guitar amp that you just can't get sounding right with the knobs ;-) I think CPR was a sincere effort, and I am not bashing MS here. I think the guys that put it together just didn't look closely enough at what the top sim guys in the field had arrived at over the past decade. If it would steer and brake in a manner consistent with the other top sims, I'd use it a lot more.

>On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:48:01 -0000, "Ian Parker" >>My feelings about CPR :- >>BTW both machines used the TRI Glide patch and the game was patched. >>On my old P166 with a TM F1 wheel the steering was terrible, with my P2 333

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>>and MS FF wheel it's tolerable, just doesnt seem as though the amount of >>steering input has a proportionate effect on the road wheels, >FF might indeed make it somewhat better, I'd think. After all, 1/2 of >racing is feel, and much of that is G force and road-feedback to the >wheel. I think this is why coming up with a very good or at least very >configurable non-linear steering algorithm is so crucial for sims- >because they don't have the feedback on the wheel. Well, until >recently ;-) >I don't think MS ended up with a good steering (and braking) >algorithm- sort of like a guitar amp that you just can't get sounding >right with the knobs ;-) >I think CPR was a sincere effort, and I am not bashing MS here. I >think the guys that put it together just didn't look closely enough at >what the top sim guys in the field had arrived at over the past >decade. If it would steer and brake in a manner consistent with the >other top sims, I'd use it a lot more.

It wasn't perfect, but it was still VERY good and had perhaps the most detailed garage setup in any simulator to date! Adam

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> >I think CPR was a sincere effort, and I am not bashing MS here. I > >think the guys that put it together just didn't look closely enough at > >what the top sim guys in the field had arrived at over the past > >decade. If it would steer and brake in a manner consistent with the > >other top sims, I'd use it a lot more. > It wasn't perfect, but it was still VERY good and had perhaps the most > detailed garage setup in any simulator to date!

Without a readout of tire temps, those setup options are almost pointless. How can you even set something basic like tire camber without knowing what your tires are doing? NOTE: SCGT should take note of this as well... -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

>It wasn't perfect, but it was still VERY good and had perhaps the most >detailed garage setup in any simulator to date! >Adam Yeah, like the ability to measure tire temperatures. Doh! Not to start the CPR debate again(its still installed on my hard drive because of Arne Martin's great tracks - http://cart.gamestats.com/tracks/), but I find it interesting that CPR has only been out for a year and a half, but you can't find any new 1999 car sets being made for it, there are few on-line or off-line racing leagues(if any), and most of the sites dedicated to it have either disappeared completely or have ceased to publish any new information. However, Indycar II (CART Racing) will be 4 years old this Fall, and there are still sites, leagues, carsets, modifications, etc., galore. After all the debating that went on with CPR's release and patch, I find this the most definitive statement about the product. Bring on CART 2000, please! Don Chapman

<...> Great sims and lousy sims both get more flames than praise, I find. It's just that while people simply forget the lousy ones, the great sims (like Icr2) get flamed for years. I.e., you can tell the best sims by how long they are hated, it seems. CPR has "cut the middle" in this respect- it is no ICR2, but it also isn't "Al Unser Racing." If I put it in a nutshell, It wasn't bad, I just couldn't steer it. ;-)

A lot of SCCA Club racers have been doing it just fine for years. Dave

Grand Prix 2 didn't allow reading of tere temps, either.

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>A lot of SCCA Club racers have been doing it just fine for years. >Dave >> Without a readout of tire temps, those setup options >> are almost pointless. How can you even set something >> basic like tire camber without knowing what your tires >> are doing? >> NOTE: SCGT should take note of this as well... >> -- >> Pat Dotson >> IMPACT Motorsports >> http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

In real life, you have the option of taking tire temps. Not doing so is an oversight. If you are in a stock SCCA class, then camber is pre-determined and it's not something that is supposed to be changed. If I had the option of setting your camber to whatever I wanted, I would want to do it properly! If other guys aren't using tire temps to set camber - it seems like a good place to gain an advantage...

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> A lot of SCCA Club racers have been doing it just fine for years. > > Without a readout of tire temps, those setup options > > are almost pointless. How can you even set something > > basic like tire camber without knowing what your tires > > are doing? > > NOTE: SCGT should take note of this as well...

-- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

Yes, but GP2 doesn't even have a *camber* setting. It's 1999 now...

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> Grand Prix 2 didn't allow reading of tere temps, either. > >> Without a readout of tire temps, those setup options > >> are almost pointless. How can you even set something > >> basic like tire camber without knowing what your tires > >> are doing? > >> NOTE: SCGT should take note of this as well...

-- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

Really I wonder how the fast guys were fast when they were racing GP2 Dave

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> Grand Prix 2 didn't allow reading of tere temps, either. > >A lot of SCCA Club racers have been doing it just fine for years. > >Dave

% Really I wonder how the fast guys were fast when they were racing GP2 Maybe because GP2 didn't model tire temps the way it's done in other sims. % > Grand Prix 2 didn't allow reading of tere temps, either. % > % > > % > >A lot of SCCA Club racers have been doing it just fine for years. % > > % > >Dave -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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><...> >>Not to start the CPR debate again(its still installed on my hard drive >>because of Arne Martin's great tracks - http://cart.gamestats.com/tracks/), >>but I find it interesting that CPR has only been out for a year and a half, >>but you can't find any new 1999 car sets being made for it, there are few >>on-line or off-line racing leagues(if any), and most of the sites dedicated >>to it have either disappeared completely or have ceased to publish any new >>information. However, Indycar II (CART Racing) will be 4 years old this >>Fall, and there are still sites, leagues, carsets, modifications, etc., >>galore. >>After all the debating that went on with CPR's release and patch, I find >>this the most definitive statement about the product. >>Bring on CART 2000, please! >Great sims and lousy sims both get more flames than praise, I find. >It's just that while people simply forget the lousy ones, the great >sims (like Icr2) get flamed for years. >I.e., you can tell the best sims by how long they are hated, it seems. >CPR has "cut the middle" in this respect- it is no ICR2, but it also >isn't "Al Unser Racing." If I put it in a nutshell, It wasn't bad, I >just couldn't steer it. ;-)

Did you trying turning the steering wheel? <G>

<snip> No, I use keyboard. -sloof lirpa

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><snip> >>>CPR has "cut the middle" in this respect- it is no ICR2, but it also >>>isn't "Al Unser Racing." If I put it in a nutshell, It wasn't bad, I >>>just couldn't steer it. ;-) >>Did you trying turning the steering wheel? >><G> >No, I use keyboard. >-sloof lirpa

Well there's your problem then. Try using a good quality steering wheel, or even a joystick. It makes things much better. However, I used the keys for MONTHS before I bought a joystick and I thought it was still very good indeed.

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><snip> >>>CPR has "cut the middle" in this respect- it is no ICR2, but it also >>>isn't "Al Unser Racing." If I put it in a nutshell, It wasn't bad, I >>>just couldn't steer it. ;-) >>Did you trying turning the steering wheel? >><G> >No, I use keyboard. >-sloof lirpa

I played CPR for the first time in months today, and I am now more convinced of it greatness than ever! How could anybody put this down? And as for bad steering... no way! :-)

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>><snip> >>>>CPR has "cut the middle" in this respect- it is no ICR2, but it also >>>>isn't "Al Unser Racing." If I put it in a nutshell, It wasn't bad, I >>>>just couldn't steer it. ;-) >>>Did you trying turning the steering wheel? >>><G> >>No, I use keyboard. >>-sloof lirpa >Well there's your problem then.

No, sorry about that- I was joking (April Fools spelled backward in sloof lirpa). Maybe there really are serious simmers who use keyboard for a sim... but I use a Thrustmaster T2 wheel and pedals, and I can't for the life of me steer CPR. It irritates me, because there is so much potential in this sim. But even breathing on the brakes locks the wheels up, and no matter where I slide the little non-linear steering and speed-proportional steering widgets, there is simply no place where steering is manageable. Maybe you have steering help on or something? I mean, it is unuseable for me. And I spend at least 10 hours a week online with GPL, and have used ICR2 since the day it came out (late 94?). But even if I could steer CPR in a way consistent with the other top titles our there (GP2, N2, GPL, etc.), is it true that I can't actually see my tire temps?? Am I just missing something?

Late 1995 actually... Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited

Odd. Perhaps you should find a different controller? I use a CH Pro (I think), and I don't have any problems like this I forget the name of my steering wheel, which has pedals AND a gear shift, but I don't have any problems here either.

Wow! Sims really have come far in the past few years..

: for a sim... but I use a Thrustmaster T2 wheel and pedals, and I can't : for the life of me steer CPR. It irritates me, because there is so : much potential in this sim. But even breathing on the brakes locks the : wheels up, and no matter where I slide the little non-linear steering : and speed-proportional steering widgets, there is simply no place : where steering is manageable. Is the T2 a force feedback wheel? I can well imagine how CART PR would be almost impossible to steer without the feedback - the limits of grip are so marginal that all your decisions about control are heavily based on the what the wheel is doing - you can feel it beginning to go light as you oversteer. I drive it with all aids off, and the steering set to twitchiest - with feedback you can throw the thing around like a go-kart. I use an SC&T "ultimate per4mer force feedback". Apparently it's reviewed as being the most powerful "arms out of sockets" wheel around, but it's just the job for CPR. While I accept that the other drivers in race-mode *are* homicidal, spoiling it as a racer, for me it's streets ahead of anything else as a sim for lap-time whittling and car control. I agree about CPR's brakes though, they are hard not to lock, but not as annoying as Monaco GP's wheelspin :) My take on the whole thing is, that you couldn't hope to drive a real racecar with a keyboard or with no mechanical feedback through the wheel, and the better a sim gets (with all aids off) the same will be true. Which is probably why I'm so hopeless at GPL. Anyone know of any force-feedback available for that yet? :) ian

<...> Maybe it is the controller... but then, the T2 isn't exactly an unusual controller for simmers. Well, if there is a way to monitor tire temps, I'd be willing to plug in my old CH pedals and either the joystick or my flight yoke... otherwise, it is just too much hassle, since that would put it out of the realm of serious sim for me. Meanwhile GPL, ICR2, N2, GP2 all work fine with the T2.

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>: for a sim... but I use a Thrustmaster T2 wheel and pedals, and I can't >: for the life of me steer CPR. It irritates me, because there is so >: much potential in this sim. But even breathing on the brakes locks the >: wheels up, and no matter where I slide the little non-linear steering >: and speed-proportional steering widgets, there is simply no place >: where steering is manageable. >Is the T2 a force feedback wheel?

No, too old for that. Well, this is a good point. Perhaps CPR was indeed designed with force feedback as the default mode, and without it I'd need a steering aid. But this means CPR designers didn't do their job fully, IMO. <...> Well, I think feedback in all it's forms is the way of the future for sims. But I also think that the best sims do OK without wheel feedback. Here's an question: with serious sims that support FF, are people with FF turned on doing better or worse times than people with it turned off? I mean in the broad sense, categorically. I put it like that because there is a problem with FF- and that is when it comes to online competition. If one or the other has an advantage, competitive people are going to favor the advantage. And I've heard some people say that racing with FF on in a sim they knew well actually made their lap times worse. And, of course, you can't enforce that all racers will have FF on if it turns out there is an advantage to having it off! I don't know the answers; interested in what you guys know. Well, you raise a thorny issue. Papy says current FF technology with current hardware wasn't "good enough" for them, in so many words. This makes some very angry, some thinking Papy is just lazy. I fthe speed of their patches and bug fixes, etc, are any indication... maybe they laziness isn't out of the question ;-). But I also do sort of see Papy's point- GPL is the top-eschalon, cream-of-the-crop, cutting edge of commerical sim, IMO, and FF is just now becoming a norm, and wasn't totally standardized yet as to hardware and implementation. I think the hardware and protocol of FF needed to be written in stone a bit more in the marketplace before GPL could have used it. I assume N3 will have it, though, now that FF is the norm. That said, if GPL had FF support, I'd go buy a FF wheel. I really don't see them putting in in after the thought, though. That isn't their way ;-)

: Here's an question: with serious sims that support FF, are people with : FF turned on doing better or worse times than people with it turned : off? I mean in the broad sense, categorically. Well, I'd be stuffed at CPR, when my wheel doesn't kick in properly I'm all over the shop. : I've heard some people say that racing with FF on in a sim they knew : well actually made their lap times worse. And, of course, you can't : enforce that all racers will have FF on if it turns out there is an : advantage to having it off! Quite, even if theoretically you get more info on handling, thus should go a few seconds faster with feedback, what you're *used* to is going to count for far more than that. Then there's the many games where badly implemented FF might be fun, but will hinder performance. : That said, if GPL had FF support, I'd go buy a FF wheel. I really : don't see them putting in in after the thought, though. That isn't : their way ;-) They're probably right too, FF does need to be written utterly tied into the physics engine if it's to work as more than a WHAM BUMP arcade style. Sounds like a patch programming nightmare to me, no wonder I've never been happy with any post release FF patch yet :) ...but when you can *feel* things like the weight redistribution as you break and turn by the change in front wheel grip - that's magic, and that's what CPR does so well. : < snip > : Perhaps CPR was indeed designed with force : feedback as the default mode, and without it I'd need a steering aid. : : But this means CPR designers didn't do their job fully, IMO. Agreed, it did occur to me when I first went through the menus that many people are playing without wheels, let alone feedback, and that the absence of adequate aids would utterly ruin the game for them. That's a hell of an oversight considering the amount of time they put into the program - I mean, did any of them actually even *try* the thing with a keyboard? :) ian

I've never used force feedback, but CART works fine for me...

I'd probably do the same!