motorcycle sim controller thoughts

With the recent release of World Superbikes Championship, and the upcoming relase of AMA Superbikes, it has become quite clear that joysticks, keyboards and steering wheels are entirely inadequate to actually simulate the experience of riding a motorcycle. So you don't develop skills that can actually be transferred to a real motorcycle. Somebody in rec.autos.simulators likened a motorcycle to a swimming simulator... you'll never quite get the controls right. I thought about this, and it seems to me that you could reasonably accurately get much of it right. It seems the key is leaning (but not the rather lame 'leaning' in the arcade motorcycle games) and counter steering, along with proper throttle and braking. The trick is to get the countersteering right... which seems impossible for all speeds (some compromise or lowspeed switch)and have the countersteering control the lean angle of your chassis (so you could whip through a chicane by torque the bars one way and then the other). The chassis you sat on would need to be strong, and balanced on pivot points that would make it pretty easy to rotate, both via weight shifting and steering head. Realistic trottle control would be easy to reproduce. Shifting and brake feel might be tricky, but surely possible. I'm looking for an excuse to buy an RGV rolling chassis, and could potentially put the forks, wheels and swingarms to use on my or another RG... leaving me with tank, frame and seat (and either RG or RGV handle bars, throttle, levers) It seems like these would be *perfect* to use as motorcycle sim chassis... you'd have the seating position and all the right controls with a very strong and light frame. You'd need to find the right pivot points and attach to some large, stable ground frame (I imagine this would be the most difficult part). So, does anyone have any idea on how one might make the steering/countersteering control the lean angle of such a device? I rigged up a simple prototype using legos (hehe), but my selection of pieces is rather limiting (just what came with the motorcycle set)... I need more gear sizes to get the handlebar to lean ratio more accurate. Of course there would be drawbacks (such as lack of rear brake or clutch in WSBK) and low to high speed steering issues and no feedback (which real motorcycle gives you loads of). But even so, would be vastly superior to joystick or steering wheel. Does anyone have any other thoughts or issues that should be addressed in such a project? Erik Johnson www.edj.net

That's what I was thinking too ... essentially, and arcade bike is just a great big input device you sit on and hang on to (a giant joystick, if you will). If you could get a used arcade unit, and map its output, you could probably make it work. Actually, it sounds like it could be quite fun. At least I'd enjoy it, since every time I try and ride a bike, I dump the thing. With a full-on bike sim, I could ride like a total nut case, and always have that wonderful reset button (like in GPL!). You might want to check with a local provider of arcade games. I know they often sell used and new units. Take care, Tony >another option would be to see if you could get hold of an arcade machine >... minus the board and stuff ... so that you could just use the bike .... >you would need to do some wiring im sure ... but it is a thought ...

another option would be to see if you could get hold of an arcade machine ... minus the board and stuff ... so that you could just use the bike .... you would need to do some wiring im sure ... but it is a thought ...

>another option would be to see if you could get hold of an arcade machine >... minus the board and stuff ... so that you could just use the bike .... >you would need to do some wiring im sure ... but it is a thought ... I don't like the arcade 'bikes'. The balance is wrong, requiring you to put your feet on the floor to tilt it. They have no steering, so you cannot just use the handlebars to flip bike back and forth (even if they did, I doubt an arcader would use countersteering).

The biggest problem with doing all of this is that you will lose your "force feedback" if you have a force feedback controller. I have several sets of rudder pedals etc. for flight sims but never use them anymore since I got my force feedback stick. The realistic feel you get outweighs the fact that your using a joystick. Having said that though, It would be awesome if someone could pull it off. Mike

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>With the recent release of World Superbikes Championship, and the >upcoming relase of AMA Superbikes, it has become quite clear that >joysticks, keyboards and steering wheels are entirely inadequate to >actually simulate the experience of riding a motorcycle. So you don't >develop skills that can actually be transferred to a real motorcycle. >So, does anyone have any idea on how one might make the >steering/countersteering control the lean angle of such a device? >I rigged up a simple prototype using legos (hehe), but my selection >of pieces is rather limiting (just what came with the motorcycle >set)... I need more gear sizes to get the handlebar to lean ratio more >accurate. >Of course there would be drawbacks (such as lack of rear brake or >clutch in WSBK) and low to high speed steering issues and no feedback >(which real motorcycle gives you loads of). But even so, would be >vastly superior to joystick or steering wheel. >Does anyone have any other thoughts or issues that should be >addressed in such a project? >Erik Johnson >www.edj.net

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:52:13 -0500, "Michael C. Richards" >The biggest problem with doing all of this is that you will lose your "force >feedback" if you have a force feedback controller. I have several sets of >rudder pedals etc. for flight sims but never use them anymore since I got my >force feedback stick. The realistic feel you get outweighs the fact that >your using a joystick. Having said that though, It would be awesome if >someone could pull it off. Somebody else in a different thread in rec.autos.simulators mentioned the idea of a forcefeed back seat... perhaps a similar concept could be used to move the back of the 'bike sim controller' around. This would probably be perfect, as you feel the rear end slide out with the seat of your pants, not through the handle bars. How are the force feedback effects in WSBK? I heard they weren't very good, but haven't used a force feedback controller. Is the feedback (assuming joystick) just lateral, or up and down as well? Is there feedback for wheelies and stoppies in WSBK? The 'project' as I've outlined is already a bankbuster, so I suppose force feedback could be a possibility. What stick do you use/recommend? I'd like to buy one to see how they work (somehow though it is easier for my to justify blowing thousands on motorcycle parts than hundreds on joysticks).

About a year ago I played an arcade bike game that was a "Harley Davidson" game. It was actually pretty cool 'cause the bike moved around with hydraulics while your feet stayed on the pegs. You "steered" with the moveable handlebars, but I dont really remember if they had the concept of countersteering correct. I guess the handlebars just became a big joystick. Maybe the next version. ----------------------------------------------- ETZ...please remove the NO-SPAM to reply (sorry!)

>With the recent release of World Superbikes Championship, and the >upcoming relase of AMA Superbikes, it has become quite clear that >joysticks, keyboards and steering wheels are entirely inadequate to >actually simulate the experience of riding a motorcycle. So you don't >develop skills that can actually be transferred to a real motorcycle. [snip] Part of the problem is that you don't always steer by countersteering. Some folks steer by leaning. Sure it's not the right way to do it, but since it can be done, it's a design issue if you want it authentic. Here's another idea. It would require fooling around with some motors or electronics, but it could be interesting. Essentially, you countersteer to initiate the lean angle of the bike, hold the controls steady and straight though the turn, then steer into the turn to straighten up at the exit. I'm simplifying a bit, but you get the idea. So what you could do is design a handlebar controller that works very differently from a joystick. When you steer in one direction, a motor with a reduction gear (or something similar) starts the steer a pot in the other direction. How fast it steers the pot depends on how much countersteering you're doing. Once you straighten out the handlebars, the motor halts, holding the pot at the "lean angle" you've initiated. Steer the other way, and the motor will turn the pot the other way to start learning in the other direction. Keep it up and the bike will straighten up then lean over until you straighten the bars again. Of course, someone really handy with DX gameport programming could probably find a way to simulate such behavior in software. Unfortunately, my DirectX skills are virtually nonexistent or I would try it myself. Neil M.

So the trick would be to allow both leaning and countersteering to work simulataneously as they do in the 'real' world. I thought quite a bit about how I was riding my real bike yesterday, and find that I don't do much leaning to iniate turns, but counter steering. I also noted that the amount of movement of the handle bars is miniscule. It would be important for the pivot point to make flipping the 'bike' from left to right pretty easy. I'm not sure I get the idea. Steer 'into' the turn? You would just 'countersteer' the other way. I envious some sort of gearing between the handle bars and the tilt of the bike chassis. I figured you could rig the pot to the tilt angle of the bike, which is controllable from the steering head. I'm not sure why a motor would be required?

I've played that. Probably the best arcade motorcycle game around. I'm pretty sure it wasn't countersteering.

>How are the force feedback effects in WSBK? I heard they weren't >very good, but haven't used a force feedback controller. Is the >feedback (assuming joystick) just lateral, or up and down as well? Is >there feedback for wheelies and stoppies in WSBK? Feedback is excellent in SBK, gearshifts are a bit harsh but you get chatter, wheelie thump when the wheel touches down, mushy steering in the grass, all very well timed. Microsoft Sidewinder Pro Force Feedback stick is excellent, absolutely highest quality with optical sensors and excellent motors. About 129.00 with a 30.00 mail in rebate. Regards, Mike P.S. checkout www.gamecenter.com/Hardware for a review of FF wheels, etc.

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>So the trick would be to allow both leaning and countersteering to >work simulataneously as they do in the 'real' world. I thought quite >a bit about how I was riding my real bike yesterday, and find that >I don't do much leaning to iniate turns, but counter steering. I also >noted that the amount of movement of the handle bars is miniscule. >It would be important for the pivot point to make flipping the 'bike' >from left to right pretty easy.

Yup. That would be tricky to get right, since countersteering would force a certain amount of lean. You'd need force feedback to do it right. Sorry about being a bit confusing. Let's say that you're already leaned over into the turn. Since you want to maintain your lean angle, you just hold the handlebars perfectly straight. To finally "level off" at the turn exit, you'd steer into the turn for just a moment. You're right, it would 'countersteer' the other way, but only if you held the countersteering long enough. If you straightened out the bars as you level out, you'd be back to straight and normal. This would be a cast-iron b*tch for using a sit-down motorcycle. I was really referring to something more akin to a conventional controller that just behaves like a bike instead of a car. That would work. For a tilting bike rig, it probably wouldn't be necessary - I was envisioning a motorcycle version of a typical home "steering wheel" Since countersteer input controls how fast you lean, and the length of time you countersteer controls how much you lean, a motor would be needed in a steering controller to drive the pot ("the lean") at a speed proportional to the amount of steering input. Unfortunately, this is one of those ideas that's easier to explain on a napkin than in text =) Neil M.

The length of time you counter steer? Its not how long you steer, but how far you turn the bars the 'counter' way. So that when you are fully leaned over, say to the right, but not changing attitude, your front wheel is turned just slightly to the left and remains that way (not straight). When you go straighten the bars, you bring the bike to an upright position. The more force you apply, the faster the steering head turns and the faster the bike changes attitude. I would say that at a given speed and given rider positioin, the same amount angle of turn on the handles bars results in a proportional lean of the bike. So simply gearing the head to the body with the right ratios should be sufficient (assuming again that the body's horizontal pivot point makes it *easy* flick it about). Or with Legos! I wish there were digital legos with working gears and what not that could illustrate the concept online.

Tell Reg Pridmore that. Oh, sorry, you won't be able to catch him :-). bob

Yeah, I do recall that there are a few folks that preach "lean to steer" instead of "countersteer." Must be a *** in the esses =) Neil

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>>Part of the problem is that you don't always steer by countersteering. >>Some folks steer by leaning. Sure it's not the right way to do it, > Tell Reg Pridmore that. Oh, sorry, you won't be able to catch >him :-). > bob

I can feel a highside coming on......

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> Yeah, I do recall that there are a few folks that preach "lean to steer" > instead of "countersteer." Must be a *** in the esses =) > Neil > >>Part of the problem is that you don't always steer by countersteering. > >>Some folks steer by leaning. Sure it's not the right way to do it, > > Tell Reg Pridmore that. Oh, sorry, you won't be able to catch > >him :-). > > bob