Papyrus a simple FFB patch please

I posted this before but as usual nobody took to it.Why cant Papyrus give us a simple FFB patch.All it would have to do is tighten up as speed increases.Forget about loosening when oversteering or when the fronts lose their grip.I dont care about bumps and jerks from impacts.What I would like is a stifness to the wheel so that I dont over compensate at full speeds.If not then I really feel they should overdo the reduce with speed effect that is implemented now.Twitchy as it is now when your at low speeds and getting less and less movement at higher speeds will mimic the fact that as speed increases so does the tension in the wheel.This way at top speed we will have to turn the wheel alot more for a given amount of llock and this will give the impression of tightened steering since our wheels get tighter the more you turn them.I apologize to all if this was brought up many times before. Another thing.Does GPL not model the fact that when you go past your maximum slipangle by truning the wheel to far that you will lose grip at the fronts.It seems they dont and I feel this is a very good thing that they added since we cant feel the grip losin the wheel. Skeeter

Skeeter... With all due respect, by referring to the addition of force feedback to GPL as just a "simple FFB patch", you seriously underestimate what's involved in such an undertaking. With its many subtleties, reproducing road feel and variations in traction at the steering wheel, in a realistic manner, is not the veritable child's play that you seem to suggest. Your implication that Papyrus could produce the desired effect with a "simple" patch is tantamount to saying to a racing game developer, "Well that's a great physics engine you have there. Now how about just *** up a good visual interface to go with that?" No one has really pulled off the force feedback trick yet. Look at SCGT. They have force feedback. But force feedback road feel? None, that I could discern in my limited exposure. Think they wouldn't have liked to have implemented it? It's not there because 1) they didn't have the expertise to implement it or 2) its implementation would have taken too long or been too costly. As a mechanical engineer, familiar with the physics being modeled, and as a software developer, I'd suggest that anyone anticipating force feedback in a 1.1 version of GPL not hold their breath. Which, incidentally, is by no means a criticism of Papyrus. My experience suggests that force feedback is a GPL 2.0 feature, at earliest. Finally, you seem to say that GPL does not model excessive slip angles accurately. Have you ever powered through a high speed sweeper sawing at the wheel from side to side while maintaining a relatively steady path along the racing line? The accurate modeling of excess slip angles is exactly what you're experiencing as you maintain control while madly flailing at the wheel. Jack Rambo

snip > No one has really pulled off the force feedback trick yet. Look at SCGT. > They have force feedback. But force feedback road feel? None, that I could > discern in my limited exposure. Think they wouldn't have liked to have > implemented it? It's not there because 1) they didn't have the expertise to > implement it or 2) its implementation would have taken too long or been too > costly. Buy ViperRacing, then you know what's possible... Oh, I'd even buy a second copy of GPL to get FF in that sim! l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

I have it, Ronald. Having done some SCCA campaigning a number of years ago, Viper Racing doesn't stir any responses in my old and feeble mind. Jack Rambo

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>snip >> No one has really pulled off the force feedback trick yet. Look at SCGT. >> They have force feedback. But force feedback road feel? None, that I could >> discern in my limited exposure. Think they wouldn't have liked to have >> implemented it? It's not there because 1) they didn't have the expertise to >> implement it or 2) its implementation would have taken too long or been too >> costly. >Buy ViperRacing, then you know what's possible...

I believe that Viper has great FFB but I really dont feel that FFB wheels are up to simulating what the front tires in GPL are going thru.It seems that GPL is all ready to go in terms of FFB.Have you noticed that at times the virtual steering wheel moves while you keep your wheel straight.Catch a wheel off the side of the road and your virtual wheel jerks.While going really fast turn your wheelfrom left tand then hold it still and your virtual wheel moves in response to the weight of the car transfering back and forth. theres some new things out in the FFB scene and you can read about it here.WWW.force-1.com Skeeter

> >Buy ViperRacing, then you know what's possible... > I have it, Ronald. Having done some SCCA campaigning a number of years ago, > Viper Racing doesn't stir any responses in my old and feeble mind. Who would compare real life force feedback to simulated FF? ;^) But to me the (maybe lacking) feeling of the car fighting back is such an immersion improvement that I don't want to miss anymore. l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

snip > >Buy ViperRacing, then you know what's possible... > I believe that Viper has great FFB but I really dont feel that FFB > wheels are up to simulating what the front tires in GPL are going > thru.It seems that GPL is all ready to go in terms of FFB.Have you Loosing grip in GPL is NO different to loosing grip in VR, isn't it? The steering wheel goes loose, if you do loose grip. If it's possible in VR, it's possible in GPL. Another question is the effect of lag, as the physics engine of GPL is "finer" (granularity) as VR's. l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>Loosing grip in GPL is NO different to loosing grip in VR, isn't it? >The steering wheel goes loose, if you do loose grip. If it's possible >in VR, it's possible in GPL. Another question is the effect of lag, as >the physics engine of GPL is "finer" (granularity) as VR's. Yes, I know how obnoxious this is..but with this paragraph I can't restrain myself anymore. "Loose" and "Lose" mean different things and they are spelled differently. You "Lose" grip, you are "Losing" grip. The steering wheel does go "Loose", but it is if you "Lose" grip. The car can be tighter or "Looser". A person who does not win is a "Loser" "Loose" is the opposite of tight. "Lose" is the opposite of win. As long as I am setting myself up to get flamed for knowing how to spell, I might as well add that the middle pedal is the brake. Contrast that with something else that folks seem to have trouble getting... It's not a "Break" pedal. It's not a brake "Peddle" The readme for SCGT even uses the misspelling "Peddle". I'm sure the people who can't spell correctly don't think it matters, but I own a business, and if you come in to apply for a job and your application looks as good as someone else's but they can spell and you can't, guess who gets the job? ~daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com/ The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! -----------== Over 66,000 Groups, Plus a Dedicated Binaries Server ==----------

>He, Schlaumeier, sprichst Du noch 'ne Sprache ausser Englisch? >Hey, smartass, you talkin' another language besides English? No, You definately have me there. I can speak about 2 useful phrases in about 5 other languages and can't spell them correctly at all. The real probelm is that I see people who have English as their native language spelling it the same way. Yeah..there's a million of 'em. I tried decaf and everything, but I still can't stop getting worked up over this junk. Something in my upbringing, no doubt. Thanks for having a sense of humor and humoring me. ~daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! -----------== Over 66,000 Groups, Plus a Dedicated Binaries Server ==----------

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> Ronald Stoehr wrote > >Loosing grip in GPL is NO different to loosing grip in VR, isn't it? > >The steering wheel goes loose, if you do loose grip. If it's possible > >in VR, it's possible in GPL. Another question is the effect of lag, as > >the physics engine of GPL is "finer" (granularity) as VR's. > Yes, I know how obnoxious this is..but with this paragraph I can't restrain > myself anymore.

He, Schlaumeier, sprichst Du noch 'ne Sprache ausser Englisch? Hey, smartass, you talkin' another language besides English? Here's another one for you: "Would you BORROW me your ***?" Have fun... ;^) l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Ronald is German. I own a company too. If he applied for a job with me and made such a tiny mistake in his spelling, I'd be impressed. David G Fisher >I'm sure the people who can't spell correctly don't think it matters, but I >own a business, and if you come in to apply for a job and your application >looks as good as someone else's but they can spell and you can't, guess who >gets the job?

As you say, good ff has been done already. It's coming in other sims. Since it wasn't in GPL, the GPL fans insist it can't be done. Surprise, surprise. David G Fisher >Buy ViperRacing, then you know what's possible...

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:42:33 -0500, "David G Fisher" >As you say, good ff has been done already. It's coming in other sims. Since >it wasn't in GPL, the GPL fans insist it can't be done. Surprise, surprise. >David G Fisher Hi David, I think GPL is, by far, the most awesome racing sim yet. Consider me a fan of GPL. I insist that good FF can be done, because I've seen it. So much for sweeping generalizations... Brett

Hi Skeeter, Now that I've stopped to consider your point, it makes a whole lot of sense. While I don't have a difficult time staying straight at high speeds, it would be nice to have even the most basic feedback that you describe. Good point. As for your second point, it seems to me that I could never turn far enough (at high straight speeds) to loose grip at the front. The lock just doesn't seem great enough, then the back end just breaks loose. At low cornering speeds, I definitely get understeer. At least, that's how I remember it right now... Brett

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> > I posted this before but as usual nobody took to it.Why cant Papyrus > >give us a simple FFB patch.All it would have to do is tighten up as > >speed increases.Forget about loosening when oversteering or when the > >fronts lose their grip.I dont care about bumps and jerks from > >impacts.What I would like is a stifness to the wheel so that I dont > >over compensate at full speeds.If not then I really feel they should > >overdo the reduce with speed effect that is implemented now.Twitchy as > >it is now when your at low speeds and getting less and less movement > >at higher speeds will mimic the fact that as speed increases so does > >the tension in the wheel.This way at top speed we will have to turn > >the wheel alot more for a given amount of llock and this will give the > >impression of tightened steering since our wheels get tighter the more > >you turn them.I apologize to all if this was brought up many times > >before.

I definitely see your point here, but as for me I think it is just fine the way it is. From my experience in real racecars, steering is much heavier when going slow, so for me, this would be a bit weird... Faster turns demands less steering wheel movement. Racing was relatively easy on the hands at a open, fast track, while at my local Micky mouse course, the wrists were really punished after 5 laps.(Mostly 2nd gear stuff). I'm not following you here :-) I definitely get understeer when adding exessive lock, while I was delighted to find that if I gave the wheel a good 'ol twist on a straight, I got into BIG trouble. This was the most annoying thing about ICR2 and N2, you could just swerve like a maniac on the straights without spinning! I would love to see really good feedback implemented into GPL, but that would be really difficult to get right. Somehow, I think I am sensing what the car is doing anyway! GP2 also got this right, apart from a few of G.Crammonds ideas (reaction to kerbs..ugh, just like REVS!) All best, Matt ----------------------------------------- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/simrace1.htm -----------------------------------------

David G Fisher wrote It can be done David... Don't over-generalize :) -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/

I've yet to see it... Eric

As far as I'm aware the current problem with FF is the latency involved. For example if in the sim you calculate that the steering wheel should have a torque of say 10 pounds force you need to send that command to the FF wheel. The time for that command to be sent can be longer than the time it takes to update the display. So what ends up happening is that the Force "Feedback" is slightly delayed compared to what you are seeing on the monitor. This delayed feedback would cause problems in how you perceive the car feels. Of course you can do "canned" effects that play a lot quicker because they are built into the wheel and do not take a long time to set up. These canned effects can be wheel rattle over berms, wheel shake in collisions, etc. I think if it was easy for Papyrus to do "realistic" steering Froce Feedback they would have done it. John > As you say, good ff has been done already. It's coming in other sims. Since > it wasn't in GPL, the GPL fans insist it can't be done. Surprise, surprise. > David G Fisher > >Buy ViperRacing, then you know what's possible... > >Loosing grip in GPL is NO different to loosing grip in VR, isn't it?

> As you say, good ff has been done already. It's coming in other sims. Since > it wasn't in GPL, the GPL fans insist it can't be done. Surprise, surprise. Ok, now which sims/games has done this good, and yes I'm a GPL fan and yes I really want to know, I tried Viper Racing with a FF wheel and wasn't impressed, but I'm open for suggestions :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy

> > As you say, good ff has been done already. It's coming in other sims. Since > > it wasn't in GPL, the GPL fans insist it can't be done. Surprise, surprise. > Ok, now which sims/games has done this good, and yes I'm a GPL fan and > yes I really want to know, I tried Viper Racing with a FF wheel and > wasn't impressed, but I'm open for suggestions :-) Well, if you didn't like the FF in VR, then you're out of luck, as it currently is the only sim with really usefull and immersive effects... l8er ronny -- A healthy "*** you" to Eidos for voluntary and unlawfull censorship of *** German video gamers! (Daikatana) |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>Ok, now which sims/games has done this good, and yes I'm a GPL fan and >yes I really want to know, I tried Viper Racing with a FF wheel and >wasn't impressed, but I'm open for suggestions :-) I found Viper racing FF very very good. It convinced me that Papyrus really *should* be doing FF. Now maybe for the small number of superstar hotlappers it would mean nothing, it would slow them down. But for the other 95% of us mortals I think it would really increase our ability to drive the car, just like it does in Viper. Joe

> I found Viper racing FF very very good. It convinced me that Papyrus > really *should* be doing FF. Now maybe for the small number of > superstar hotlappers it would mean nothing, it would slow them down. > But for the other 95% of us mortals I think it would really increase > our ability to drive the car, just like it does in Viper. Hm, odd, I really couldn't get much from the FF in VR, but since you're not the only one, I guess I need to go back and look some more, could it be that the Thrustmaster Force GT that I tried just isn't any good ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

> Well, if you didn't like the FF in VR, then you're out of luck, as it > currently is the only sim with really usefull and immersive effects... Ok, I'll have another go then, maybe that TM Force GT needs some tuning Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

>Hm, odd, I really couldn't get much from the FF in VR, but since you're >not the only one, I guess I need to go back and look some more, could it >be that the Thrustmaster Force GT that I tried just isn't any good ? i don't know. My Logitech FF isn't the *strongest* wheel, but it's effects are very accurate. Most helpful is the way the wheel pulls to the side based on how hard you are turning, and goes loose/tight when your wheels lose/catch grip. The wheel also goes light as you crest hills, which is neat. It's definitely improved my Viper driving. What shocks me about the whole FF thing is how hopelessly crappy most FF support is in games that claim to have it. Even new games like SCGT have only the most minimalist possible support - rumble strips and collisions. Developers, if that's all your going to do don't even bother. At LEAST give my variable sideways pull on turning and loose steering on skidding. That doesn't seem so ***y hard, and is the absolute minimum implement ion needed for FF to be at all useful. Joe

> i don't know. My Logitech FF isn't the *strongest* wheel, but it's > effects are very accurate. Most helpful is the way the wheel pulls to > the side based on how hard you are turning, and goes loose/tight when > your wheels lose/catch grip. The wheel also goes light as you crest > hills, which is neat. It's definitely improved my Viper driving. Tried it some more, like it a bit more :-) There are as you say some neat touches in there, guess what turned me off initially is the "notchy" action of the TM wheel when I'm used to the very smooth action of my regular wheel (homebuilt TSW(ish) replica), do all FF wheels have this, I mean I can actually feel that there are electrical motors/servos working mechanically in there (hope you guys know what I mean) and not a smooth continious action -- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/