F1 Questions

I watched a replay of the Australian GP last night and I have a few questions for the die-hard F1 fans out there. 1.) Why, when the two stewart cars had problems on the grid, did they abort the start? You can't get started? See you next event...(very NASCAR mentality I realize, but I don't understand) 2.) How did Schumacher, Michael, get screwed? He couldn't go anywhere on the first start because of the stalled car in front of him. 3.) Why only 58 laps, kind of short for months and months of preperation...? 4.) I guess I just don't understand why F1 insists on using standing starts -- -/- Walk Walker Official HAL Backmarker

: I watched a replay of the Australian GP last night and I have a few : questions for the die-hard F1 fans out there. : 1.) Why, when the two stewart cars had problems on the grid, did they abort : the start? You can't get started? See you next event...(very NASCAR : mentality I realize, but I don't understand) The F1 cars accelerate much quicker than NASCARs if someone stalls on the grid then there is potential for an extremely *** accident. Indeed there have been fatalities in F1 this way. The F1 cars can be doing a hundred mph after not very many car lengths - certainly in the length of the grid. : 2.) How did Schumacher, Michael, get screwed? He couldn't go anywhere on the : first start because of the stalled car in front of him. He had clutch problems getting started. The car in front of him wasn't stalled (Mika Hakkinen). F1 cars don't have starters so he had to be pushed off. F1 rules state that on the parade lap (where Schumi had his problem) you can regain your grid place if you get off before everyone has gone past (this happened to Mika) but not if everyone has passed you before you start (as happened to Michael). : 3.) Why only 58 laps, kind of short for months and months of preperation...? Traditional - each race is approximately the same length. (I think it's 200km - can't remember the exact distance). Remember also that F1 courses are much longer than ovals. 200 laps of most F1 courses would mean a 5-6 hour race. : 4.) I guess I just don't understand why F1 insists on using standing starts The standing start is a great test of skill. Some drivers are brilliant at it (Coulthard, Alesi) and some aren't. It's dangerous I suppose but for a lot of spectators it is the most exciting part of the race. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

FIA rules. <shrugs> Why does NASCAR change the rules every time one chassis manufacturer gets the advantage? I don't understand that. Btw, if you hadn't noticed it ain't NASCAR. I would consider that being screwed. Not Michael's fault, nothing he could do about it...therefore he got hosed. Life goes on. preperation...? How long did it take them to complete 58 laps? 1hr35'01"659 minutes of racing. You go drive the Australian GP track in an F1 car for 1 1/2 hours and see how you fare; 3.92mile distance around the track and 58 laps is 191miles. Granted it was not the 400miles of LasVega, but its not the same as going around in a circle for 3 hours (not to say that isn't tough either). Btw, as a comparison, CART has a standing # of laps or 2 hours for each race whichever comes first. Again, I don't understand why NASCAR changes rules every week it seems. Besides, standing starts are kinda a tradition in F1. Check out www.formula1.com, its an unofficial F1 site, but its EXTREMELY well done.

Well, they could have had an obstacle-laden grid for 20 other cars travelling at 100mph+ to negotiate but it wouldn't have been very safe would it?! Definitely NASCAR mentality. His car expired on the grid. Asking the F1 cars to run a 200 lap race like NASCAR would be like asking NASCAR to run about 1500 laps! -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

They started but from the pits: if the car is unable to start in time (the car must start before all the other drivers will overtake it during the warm up lap) he must start from there (absurd!). In fact Hakkinen has started from the pole (he recovered his place in time). See the previous answer. However he had a steering wheel problem: 1st gear malfunction (these steering wheels cost about 30,000 $!!) preperation...? That is about 300 km! (200 miles). A F.1 engine is made to live just 350-400 km! But that's an effect, not a cause. Mainly because the drivers would tire themselves too much = too many risks. Me too! F1 has never been very smart about all these aspects. Many new rules has been copied from american races (pace car, etc.) Stefano Serni

Basically because F1 cars accelerate too fast. Rubens was in fourth, and even in the 100-150m it would take the back cars to reach him they would be doing close on 150mph and have no time to react. Dangerous for them and for Rubens. He couldn't go anywhere on the first start because he fluffed it getting away, nothing to do with the car stalled in front (he could easily have driven round that). Actually he shouldn't have been sent to the back, since the rules state that you must go to the back ONLY if all other cars have crossed the white line to begin the pace lap - Takagi's car had also stalled and hence not all cars had crossed. Officially Michael should have been allowed to resume his position, as Hakkinen did. Anyway, his race was screwed further when he got a puncture and then a steering wheel malfunction rubbed salt in the wound (the wheel controls most things on the car). It's historical - 200 miles or 2 hours, whichever is sooner. Races generally run for close on 200m, and that is longer or shorter timewise depending upon weather and relative speed of the track (Monaco is nearly 2 hours, Monza and Hockenheim are only 80mins or so). Just one more skill left to the driver. I find standing starts far more exciting to watch as well as a skill to be learned - everyone racing _equally_ for the first corner. Rolling starts give too much scope for devious strategy, faking people out etc. Cheers! John

Graeme Nash answered the following questions from ?: Right. At the time, it did seem like MS got screwed, that Hakkinen had caused him to stall by not pulling away. But as it turned out, Schumacher couldn't get the car in first because of his faulty steering wheel (which houses the shifter). This problem came back to plague him in the race - he had an aborted pitstop in which you could here his shifting problems and then he came in and got the steering wheel completely changed out. Fox Sports Net had an interesting piece on the F1 steering wheels before a race last season. These suckers cost around $20,000 to $40,000 (US) ! What was never explained was the letter of the rule re: passing someone on the parade lap. As most of you know, it's illegal to pass on the parade lap. Schumacher got black flagged for doing this in 1994. Since Hakkinen didn't pull away, half the field passed him. Why no penalties for that? I assume it was okay since Hakkinen was having problems, but I would be curious to read the exact rule. F1 races are set to be the minimum number of laps that gets the race over 305 km. Don't know why 305 and not a round number like 300. The race also has a two hour maximum time (this occasionally comes into play in the rain on slow circuits). It would be asking a lot of these cars to go much longer than that (the Ferrari is redlining at 18,000 rpm!). Dave Ewing

Not everyone had passed Michael though. There was another car at the back of the grid so MS was the second to last to leave the grid so should have taken his correct place. Dean

The relevant part of Article 142 of the F1 Sporting Regulations states; "Overtaking during the formation lap is only permitted if a car is delayed when leaving its grid position and cars behind cannot avoid passing it without unduly delaying the remainder of the field. In this case, drivers may only overtake to re-establish the original starting order." "Any driver who is delayed leaving the grid may not overtake another moving car if he was stationary after the remainder of the cars had crossed the Line, and must start the race from the back of the grid. If more than one driver is affected, they must form up at the back of the grid in the order they left to complete the formation lap. If the Line is not situated in front of pole position, for the purposes of this Article only, it will be deemed to be a white line one metre in front of pole position." "A time penalty will be imposed on any driver who, in the opinion of the Stewards, unnecessarily overtook another car during the formation lap." -- Alan E. Jones

>>2.) How did Schumacher, Michael, get screwed? He couldn't go anywhere on the

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>>first start because of the stalled car in front of him. >He couldn't go anywhere on the first start because he fluffed it >getting away, nothing to do with the car stalled in front (he could >easily have driven round that). Actually he shouldn't have been sent >to the back, since the rules state that you must go to the back ONLY >if all other cars have crossed the white line to begin the pace lap - >Takagi's car had also stalled and hence not all cars had crossed.

Since all the moving cars crossed the line I guess that was enough. Or at least the F1 officials thought so. Also MS did not seem to complain and protest that too much did he? If he didn't protest, why not? Why? I don't understand. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>I watched a replay of the Australian GP last night and I have a few >questions for the die-hard F1 fans out there. >1.) Why, when the two stewart cars had problems on the grid, did they abort >the start? You can't get started? See you next event...(very NASCAR >mentality I realize, but I don't understand) It is the *DRIVER* who qualifies not the car. Your right about your nascar mentality BTW :-) If his car did not start properly on it's own, it goes to the rear of the field or the pits. I didn't realize that he also had a problem until after everything was sorted out. Also (fwiw) he got screwed by the flat tire not the start :-) preperation...? All the F1 races are aprox 300KM in length (monaco is 259KM). Monaco is 78 laps, but that circuit is pretty short. Hockenhiem is only 45 laps. Also there is a 2 hour time limit for each race. Feature :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

starts Just one more skill left to the driver. I find standing starts far more exciting to watch as well as a skill to be learned - everyone racing _equally_ for the first corner. Rolling starts give too much scope for devious strategy, faking people out etc.>> yeah, but nothing compared to the full-on LeMans type start where the drivers race on foot to the cars ;) !! obviously impossible today, but what fun!!

As does Formula1. - "If the meaning of life was printed in a book, someone would use it to keep the window open."

On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 00:43:37 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Since all the moving cars crossed the line I guess that was enough. >Or at least the F1 officials thought so. Also MS did not seem to complain >and protest that too much did he? If he didn't protest, why not? He did protest, vehemently, initially at least. MS apparently knew the rules (as Hakkinen did) and fully intended recovering his position, but was instructed by the stewards to remain at the back of the grid. This was protested by Ferrari. In the end the appeal was, AFAIK, dropped, because Michael's race was screwed up by a puncture and steering wheel failure, and he'd already fought his way back up to the front at that time. Winning the appeal would be of no benefit. I'm sure we'll see the rules clarified on this issue real soon though. See above. The rules say that you can resume your grid position provided all other cars haven't left the grid. Obviously this is against the spirit and intent of the rules to include cars who, like you, have stalled, but it's within the letter. F1 has always been very big on following the letter at the expense of the spirit. Cheers! John

I loved that - wouldn't like to trip though!! Cheers! John

Why flame the guy cuz he asks pertinent questions for a sport he obviously wants to know more about?Racing is racing......whatever the formula.Each form has it's good points and bad points.As a racing fan,I enjoy them all(except for the Indy 500 now) and i hope that this new F1 fan learns more about this formula and comes to enjoy it as much as we all do.

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> >I watched a replay of the Australian GP last night and I have a few > >questions for the die-hard F1 fans out there. > >1.) Why, when the two stewart cars had problems on the grid, did they abort > >the start? You can't get started? See you next event...(very NASCAR > >mentality I realize, but I don't understand) > It is the *DRIVER* who qualifies not the car. Your right about your nascar > mentality BTW :-) > >2.) How did Schumacher, Michael, get screwed? He couldn't go anywhere on > the > >first start because of the stalled car in front of him. > If his car did not start properly on it's own, it goes to the rear of the > field > or the pits. I didn't realize that he also had a problem until after > everything > was sorted out. Also (fwiw) he got screwed by the flat tire not the start > :-) > >3.) Why only 58 laps, kind of short for months and months of > preperation...? > All the F1 races are aprox 300KM in length (monaco is 259KM). Monaco is > 78 laps, but that circuit is pretty short. Hockenhiem is only 45 laps. Also > there > is a 2 hour time limit for each race. > >4.) I guess I just don't understand why F1 insists on using standing starts > Feature :-) > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

And remember that one of the things that Villeneuve had to get used to was "2 hours of racing." i.e. no yellow flags for two laps of relative quiet. It's a whole 'nother sport. I love it: they simply drive around the wrecks! Av/Mikey

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| |How long did it take them to complete 58 laps? 1hr35'01"659 minutes of |racing. You go drive the Australian GP track in an F1 car for 1 1/2 hours |and see how you fare; 3.92mile distance around the track and 58 laps is |191miles. Granted it was not the 400miles of LasVega, but its not the same |as going around in a circle for 3 hours (not to say that isn't tough |either). Btw, as a comparison, CART has a standing # of laps or 2 hours |for each race whichever comes first. |

>Why flame the guy cuz he asks pertinent questions for a sport he obviously wants >to know more about?Racing is racing......whatever the formula.Each form has it's I agree. That is why I didn't flame him. Do you even know what a newsgroup flame is? DUH. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >good points and bad points.As a racing fan,I enjoy them all(except for the Indy >500 now) >and i hope that this new F1 fan learns more about this formula and comes to >enjoy it as much as we all do. >> >I watched a replay of the Australian GP last night and I have a few >> >questions for the die-hard F1 fans out there. >> >1.) Why, when the two stewart cars had problems on the grid, did they abort >> >the start? You can't get started? See you next event...(very NASCAR >> >mentality I realize, but I don't understand) >> It is the *DRIVER* who qualifies not the car. Your right about your nascar >> mentality BTW :-) >> >2.) How did Schumacher, Michael, get screwed? He couldn't go anywhere on >> the >> >first start because of the stalled car in front of him. >> If his car did not start properly on it's own, it goes to the rear of the >> field >> or the pits. I didn't realize that he also had a problem until after >> everything >> was sorted out. Also (fwiw) he got screwed by the flat tire not the start >> :-) >> >3.) Why only 58 laps, kind of short for months and months of >> preperation...? >> All the F1 races are aprox 300KM in length (monaco is 259KM). Monaco is >> 78 laps, but that circuit is pretty short. Hockenhiem is only 45 laps. Also >> there >> is a 2 hour time limit for each race. >> >4.) I guess I just don't understand why F1 insists on using standing starts >> Feature :-) >> -- >> Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >> cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>See above. The rules say that you can resume your grid position >provided all other cars haven't left the grid. Obviously this is >against the spirit and intent of the rules to include cars who, like >you, have stalled, but it's within the letter. F1 has always been very >big on following the letter at the expense of the spirit. OK. So technicaly he htought he could get his starting grid position because someone else could not start also. So the strict definition of this would mean that if more then one car does not start, they *ALL* should be allowed to have their origional starting positions. I do hope it gets clairified. Thanks for the info about the MS protest, I didn't know that. At least I didn't think they mentioned it during the race coverage. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I believe that's incorrect, in a way. The length of a Grand Prix is 300km + 1 lap, or 2 hours + 1 lap. 200miles is more than 320km ... Hena

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>>2.) How did Schumacher, Michael, get screwed? He couldn't go anywhere on the >>first start because of the stalled car in front of him. >He couldn't go anywhere on the first start because he fluffed it >getting away, nothing to do with the car stalled in front (he could >easily have driven round that). Actually he shouldn't have been sent >to the back, since the rules state that you must go to the back ONLY >if all other cars have crossed the white line to begin the pace lap - >Takagi's car had also stalled and hence not all cars had crossed. >Officially Michael should have been allowed to resume his position, as >Hakkinen did. Anyway, his race was screwed further when he got a >puncture and then a steering wheel malfunction rubbed salt in the >wound (the wheel controls most things on the car).

I think everything went according to rules. Because they both had stalled it they both had to start from the back of the grid. Why should M. Schumacher be allowed to take back his position on the grid and Takagi would still have to start from the back although they both couldn't get away? Well, this is how I see it anyway. :) -- Greger Huttu

Yup, 200 miles is 321.9 km :-)