Flame wars

Hey everyone, Just to reiterate what Jack said in a recent post..... It's not very pleasant to read the kind of gross language and personal abuse that has been flying around lately. It's certainly not in keeping with the rules of this group and doesn't show us in a good light to the sim or arcade developers alike. I know from personal experience that it can be hard to restrain oneself from letting rip at someone who's views are not the same as one's own and I am as guilty as the next poster. However, perhaps we could restrain ourselves to use language like "I don't think your right here, xxx" rather than "You're a f*** nerd, xxx". It can be very hurtful to be savaged like that and one's natural reaction is to strike back thus starting a long thread of insults. If you get flamed just ignore it. If someone else gets flamed ignore that too. Everyone's opinion is valid - nobody's abuse says anything. Cheers, Paul

here here... amen to that... couldn't have said it better myself... preach on Brother Paul... darn tootin'... i'll second that... --dave

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> Hey everyone, > Just to reiterate what Jack said in a recent post..... > It's not very pleasant to read the kind of gross language and personal > abuse that has been flying around lately. It's certainly not in keeping > with the rules of this group and doesn't show us in a good light to the > sim or arcade developers alike. > I know from personal experience that it can be hard to restrain oneself > from letting rip at someone who's views are not the same as one's own > and I am as guilty as the next poster. However, perhaps we could > restrain ourselves to use language like "I don't think your right here, > xxx" rather than "You're a f*** nerd, xxx". It can be very hurtful to be > savaged like that and one's natural reaction is to strike back thus > starting a long thread of insults. > If you get flamed just ignore it. If someone else gets flamed ignore > that too. > Everyone's opinion is valid - nobody's abuse says anything. > Cheers, > Paul

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Thanks, Paul! Sometimes I feel alone in my distaste for these childish posts. Abuse and vulgarity can appear to be the norm. But the reality, I believe, is that an overwhelming majority (the "silent majority") of the public wishes that that kind of behavior would die a premature death. It's the reckless few that tend to spoil the party for many. Amusingly, they act as if their manhood is on the line. Relax, guys! You're masculinity's not threatened! And remember: Personal attacks and vulgarity are what one resorts to when unable to fashion a more intelligent response. Thanks for sharing your feelings, Paul. I hope others of like mind join in. Jack Rambo

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>Thanks, Paul! >Sometimes I feel alone in my distaste for these childish posts. Abuse and >vulgarity can appear to be the norm. But the reality, I believe, is that an >overwhelming majority (the "silent majority") of the public wishes that that >kind of behavior would die a premature death. It's the reckless few that >tend to spoil the party for many. Amusingly, they act as if their manhood is >on the line. Relax, guys! You're masculinity's not threatened! And remember: >Personal attacks and vulgarity are what one resorts to when unable to >fashion a more intelligent response. >Thanks for sharing your feelings, Paul. I hope others of like mind join in. >Jack Rambo

I guessing that this thread is a response to the posted message #178190 (PAT FRAYNE - Avoid this guy on VROC) and the subsequent responses. If I'm wrong, sorry. Where is the flame? And as for vulgarity , I would offer that VS used it sparingly ,but appropriately, in quoting Mr./Ms. Frayne. The only personal attack is on Frayne which he/she is deserving of. And what was said was no more of a personal attack than referring to what someone said as being "childish" or making a veiled reference that someone is unintelligent because they use profanity .Surely we all have thicker skins than this. Jack please don't think I have out for you, it's not like that at all. I like to think that everyone in the R.A.S. and V.R.O.C. community is someone that I could sit down and have a pint with (maybe 2). I even agree that there is some insulting going on that is nothing more than hurtful and it has no value. (just read the "do you guys talk about this game " thread) My only argument is that I don't want R.A.S. to turn in to yet another group that has it's content diluted by people combing the messages looking for something to be offended by. There is a balance here somewhere and I think overall this group is great place for spirited debate with mutual respect. So, thanks Paul, David and Jack for sharing your feelings. I hope others of like AND unlike minds join in.

I think, not to speak for him, is that there are many posts (NOT just on the thread you speak of) where people get into *fights* and start attacking each other and getting involved in name calling. What does this solve? Pointing fingers is useless, and this doesn't necessarily concern any post you may have had, Ms. Duke... or may I call you Daisy? I think all Paul, Jack and I are saying is, take a deep breath and count to 10 before going berserk on them. A good motto for RAS in general might be: Think before you post :-) --Dave PS -- I'm up for the pint idea!!

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> I guessing that this thread is a response to the posted message > #178190 (PAT FRAYNE - Avoid this guy on VROC) and the subsequent > responses. If I'm wrong, sorry. > Where is the flame? And as for vulgarity , I would offer that VS > used it sparingly ,but appropriately, in quoting Mr./Ms. Frayne. The > only personal attack is on Frayne which he/she is deserving of. And > what was said was no more of a personal attack than referring to what > someone said as being "childish" or making a veiled reference that > someone is unintelligent because they use profanity .Surely we all > have thicker skins than this. > Jack please don't think I have out for you, it's not like that at > all. I like to think that everyone in the R.A.S. and V.R.O.C. > community is someone that I could sit down and have a pint with (maybe > 2). I even agree that there is some insulting going on that is nothing > more than hurtful and it has no value. (just read the "do you guys > talk about this game " thread) > My only argument is that I don't want R.A.S. to turn in to yet > another group that has it's content diluted by people combing the > messages looking for something to be offended by. There is a balance > here somewhere and I think overall this group is great place for > spirited debate with mutual respect. > So, thanks Paul, David and Jack for sharing your feelings. I hope > others of like AND unlike minds join in.

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Well, Daisy, perhaps we just disagree on this topic. I support a civil environment, where knowledge and enthusiasm is shared, and personal attacks and vulgarity are discouraged, as they *never* add anything to a discussion, and many do find them offensive. You, on the other hand, appear to feel that more of an "anything goes" environment is healthy. My argument is that the elements of the "anything goes" environment that are at issue detract from the reason we all come together here. As to "where's the flame", I believe Paul was speaking of flame wars, in general. Disappointingly, one need not look too deeply to find many prime examples here in RAS lately. But, with regard to the particular thread that you referenced, although it's hardly the subject of *this* thread, I think you'll notice that Francois (aka VS) did in fact graciously apologize for repeating the vulgarities. respect. And "mutual respect", as you say, is the key. When personal attacks and vulgarity are introduced, invariably the "spirited debate" degenerates rapidly. I'll stand by my earlier statement about such posts being "childish" and suggest, in an absolutely unveiled way, that an inability to "fashion a more intelligent response" is indicative of poor communication skills, at minimum. Finally, the suggestion that I, Paul, Dave, or anyone else interested in maintaining some sense of decorum in this group, spend our time "combing the messages looking for something to be offended by" is far from reality. I think the numerous contributions made by these fellows belie that inference. Jack Rambo

I actually find them very fun to read because they are entertaining.

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>Hey everyone, >Just to reiterate what Jack said in a recent post..... >It's not very pleasant to read the kind of gross language and personal >abuse that has been flying around lately. It's certainly not in keeping >with the rules of this group and doesn't show us in a good light to the >sim or arcade developers alike. >I know from personal experience that it can be hard to restrain oneself >from letting rip at someone who's views are not the same as one's own >and I am as guilty as the next poster. However, perhaps we could >restrain ourselves to use language like "I don't think your right here, >xxx" rather than "You're a f*** nerd, xxx". It can be very hurtful to be >savaged like that and one's natural reaction is to strike back thus >starting a long thread of insults. >If you get flamed just ignore it. If someone else gets flamed ignore >that too. >Everyone's opinion is valid - nobody's abuse says anything. >Cheers, >Paul

> Ms. Duke... or may I call you Daisy? I would be Mr., but Daisy is fine. I think it would be a gas to meet everyone.

Not as much as you think. That is not at all what I feel or what I expressed. On that we can agree. "ymenard" took an unfair beating in an earlier post. O.K. but this is where I'm coming from. I do some work in an industry populated by "roughnecks" (logging/timber processing) I have a customer that makes very high tech machinery that is sought after all over the world. The machines are engineering wonders and the guy's that design and build it can make my head swim with their mathmatical and engineering prowess. The first time I met them in person, I was shocked. They look like pig farmers and spit tobacco .They swear like pirates. And they do it in a south Alabama dialect that you almost need an interpretor to understand. Inarticulate? Sure. Unintellegent? Absolutely not. The fact is,they are brilliant , they just don't care what I or anyone else thinks about them or their vocabulary. Any inference that you , Paul or Dave did not contribute to the group was unintentional . I am sorry if it read that way. So how about that pint? BTW - in case anyone is wondering. THIS is spririted debate and not a flame war. At least thats the way I see it.

Daisy can also be a male name? I never though of that.

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>> Ms. Duke... or may I call you Daisy? > I would be Mr., but Daisy is fine. >>PS -- I'm up for the pint idea!! > I think it would be a gas to meet everyone.

Mr./Ms. Daisy... Great colorful story and image. But wouldn't you really rather have an ongoing dialogue with a similar engineering wiz that didn't spit and swear like he just didn't care? You see I think people have an obligation to care. Many people recognize that obligation with age. Some don't. Have you ever taken your wife/husband or girlfriend/boyfriend [we're not sure with you, Dais', but that's an entirely different topic ;-)] to a nice restaurant only to be seated next to some big, loud obnoxious guy that's spewing expletives like he just doesn't care? This guy has an *obligation* to recognize that he just might be ruining the environment for everybody. And, as you might guess, I usually remind him. But please don't conclude from this that I go to restaurants looking for loud, obnoxious guys. ;-) Good that you bring this up. Can we count the number of times that we've seen such a good, spirited debate get completely sidetracked when some misguided veritable adolescent jumps in and starts casting insults about? A little discretion goes a long way here!

Just to clear it up. I was moved to make the original post after reading all the Nascar Revolution posts that turned in pure abuse with no content whatsoever. Though if it had only been these I probably wouldn't have bothered. I don't mind a few expletives too much - though for best effect they are best used very sparingly. What I mind a lot is when people are insulted or belittled. I think it must hurt and I hate that - usenet is populated by people. I love the image of the tobacco-spitting pig-farming rocket-scientists. I also want to take you up on that pint. Cheers, Paul

Good points Sure , but I would be cheating myself if I thought that one had more merit than the other. That is my only point. As would I, if this were a nice restaurant. Ha ha ! True. Although they typically start off poorly and de-evolve from there. <G> See ya' at the track Jack.

Daisy Duke and Jack Rambo wrote : Well it's second nature to include "flame wars" with "ymenard" ;-) I get mis-quoted often, I do understand that. Not that Im a pro-flaming, but I can't resist sometimes the temptation. It's the Dark Side of the Force. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

He most certainly did... -Larry > On that we can agree. "ymenard" took an unfair beating in an earlier > post.