What about RAIN!

Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there being no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. Did they actually race in the rain? Thad

Yep! -- Robin. http://www.oppositelock.freeserve.co.uk Nurburgring and Grand Prix Legends Remove nospam from e-mail address to reply >Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there being >no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL >in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. >Did they actually race in the rain? >Thad

Um, yeah, I think it was at Mosport actually. Can you imagine that? That freakin' Moss hairpin in the rain??? You'd find my car*** from one of the pine trees. :-) Rain would be an absolute b*tch. It would simply be a matter of survival, nothing else. Any of the side-by-side battles we sometimes get in VROC would cease. I agree with you 100%. Rain: interesting, but not playable. --Dave

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> Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there being > no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL > in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. > Did they actually race in the rain? > Thad

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

also i think spa, it always had rain SOMEWHERE allong the circuit and if monaco is like it is today, i bet it was under water too hehe, it always rains there. I bet at nurbug it was also raining somewhere on the track cause it is so big. Jesse

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>Um, yeah, I think it was at Mosport actually. Can you imagine that? That >freakin' Moss hairpin in the rain??? >You'd find my car*** from one of the pine trees. :-) >Rain would be an absolute b*tch. It would simply be a matter of >survival, nothing else. Any of the side-by-side battles we sometimes get >in VROC would cease. >I agree with you 100%. Rain: interesting, but not playable. >--Dave >> Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there

being >> no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL >> in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all.

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>> Did they actually race in the rain? >> Thad >-- >Dave Schwabe >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

I wouldn't even make it that far!

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>Um, yeah, I think it was at Mosport actually. Can you imagine that? That >freakin' Moss hairpin in the rain??? >You'd find my car*** from one of the pine trees. :-) >Rain would be an absolute b*tch. It would simply be a matter of >survival, nothing else. Any of the side-by-side battles we sometimes get >in VROC would cease. >I agree with you 100%. Rain: interesting, but not playable. >--Dave >> Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there

being >> no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL >> in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all.

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>> Did they actually race in the rain? >> Thad >-- >Dave Schwabe >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

LOL good one Dave, i was thinking they would need to be strong pine trees, i am sure more than your car would be***/swinging gracefully in the breeze. Primitive, high level car parking anyone ?? Cheers, Ron

Also considering the extreme realism of the GPL physics engine it would be tough to recreate the effect and unpredictablity of rain to the same tough standard.

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> Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there being > no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL > in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. > Did they actually race in the rain? > Thad

What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. Sheesh it seems like everyone is all gaga over the supposed good driving model and forgot about the weather. Weather has been posted to death re: F1 racing sims. If people are all of a sudden giving GPL a free pass because of the driving model I guess I am disappointed. Falcon 4 has a great flight model but got ripped to shreds because of a crappy campaign. Other flight sims got crapped on because of lack of in***pit voice/radio comms. IMHO any Formula One game is total shit without weather effects. Thanks for the tip. I feel better for not being interested in GPL. A local radio station has a afternoon segment called "who are you crappin". It sounds like we could do something similar here. Hey Sierra! WHO ARE YOU CRAPPIN??? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there being >no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL >in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. >Did they actually race in the rain? >Thad

yes they did ... rouen in particular was run in shocking weather

Hi Greg, sorry you don't like GPL Regards your feeling better about not buying GPL now that you have discovered it doesn't have rain, all i can say is i feel sorry for your misconceptions on what makes a good racing sim. GPL is so far above the competition of all racing sims, that it doesn't need rain as an added attraction. Granted, it would be nice, but with the present level of technology regarding CPU speed, a rain infested GPL race would be a bit on the slow side. <G> If you are really interested in sim racing, then you will eventually try GPL. If you don't, you will never know what your missing, apart from the rain that is.... :-) Cheers, Ron

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> What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have > no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets > I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes > weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. > Sheesh it seems like everyone is all gaga over the supposed > good driving model and forgot about the weather. Weather > has been posted to death re: F1 racing sims. If people are > all of a sudden giving GPL a free pass because of the driving > model I guess I am disappointed. Falcon 4 has a great flight > model but got ripped to shreds because of a crappy campaign. > Other flight sims got crapped on because of lack of in***pit > voice/radio comms. IMHO any Formula One game is total > shit without weather effects. > Thanks for the tip. I feel better for not being interested in GPL. > A local radio station has a afternoon segment called "who are > you crappin". It sounds like we could do something similar here. > Hey Sierra! WHO ARE YOU CRAPPIN??? > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming

hordes. > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > >Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there > being > >no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL > >in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. > >Did they actually race in the rain? > >Thad

Real men race in the rain. Dave

Agreed. Just a further way to sort out the men from girls Matt

No, idiots race in the rain. Real men wait for the jet dryers to do their job, and then run some warm-up laps...

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>Real men race in the rain. >>Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain >>about there being no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can >>you just imagine trying to >race GPL in the rain! If it >>was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. >> Did they actually race in the rain?

Yes, and they weren't any to happy about it, especially with Spa being in the condition it was in at that time. Spa was especially hated and feared in the rain. -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS Director http://www.paddedwall.org/igps/igps.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

>No, idiots race in the rain. Real men wait for the jet dryers to do their >job, and then run some warm-up laps... LOL

>yes they did ... rouen in particular was run in shocking weather Actually, Rouen was not even on the calendar - Le Mans was, and it was a dry race... But to answer the previous question, yes just like these days they raced when it rained (Mosport was the only race back then). --Tel

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:42:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko"

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>What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have >no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets >I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes >weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. >Sheesh it seems like everyone is all gaga over the supposed >good driving model and forgot about the weather. Weather >has been posted to death re: F1 racing sims. If people are >all of a sudden giving GPL a free pass because of the driving >model I guess I am disappointed. Falcon 4 has a great flight >model but got ripped to shreds because of a crappy campaign. >Other flight sims got crapped on because of lack of in***pit >voice/radio comms. IMHO any Formula One game is total >shit without weather effects.

Want another bummer? GPL also does not know anything about bumps in track surfaces means its always smooth as silk. Also going thru the gravel or gras has no effect whatsoever on tyre behaviour etc.. Needless to say that this makes the whole setup process a farce... It models a 67 car pretty good but as a 'simulation' it is quite far from being complete. --Tel

Tel wrote yeah compared to the "other" sims who can't even model CAMBER for God's sake. Papyrus is near starting to model high-frequency track imperfections and you people whine when all the other game engine can't even model simple bumps and track camber correctly. <geeze how pathetic> -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Oh I knew this would cause a major riot amongst the Papyrus groupies here... lol. However for me the appearance of the track surface and correct modeling of damper/spring work as well as varying tyre grip is much more important than an incorrect track layout here and there simply because it has a huge impact on the car behaviour, affects setup model and thus my driving & strategy etc... well, that's just me, feel free to call that pathetic or whatever you wish... btw this goes to Greg, I forgot one thing in my previous post... the damage model when set to *realistic* provides a few good laughs too. Don't take it too serious if you end up with everything intact after 5 meters airborn stunt with a double salto...or if you're touching those hedges and hayballs at 200+ kph don't worry, worst thing that could happen will be a not properly work wheel here and there (although I still have to find out whether it's suspension or just the tyre that gave up the ghost). Of course it's a bit different with a frontal impact on a wall... you can actually loose a wheel or two here! ;> --Tel

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>On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:42:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have >>no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets >>I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes >>weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. >Want another bummer? GPL also does not know anything about bumps in >track surfaces means its always smooth as silk. Also going thru the >gravel or gras has no effect whatsoever on tyre behaviour etc.. >Needless to say that this makes the whole setup process a farce... >It models a 67 car pretty good but as a 'simulation' it is quite far >from being complete.

No bumps? You probably haven't drivcen at Zandvoort yet... -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS Director http://www.paddedwall.org/igps/igps.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

>No, idiots race in the rain. Real men wait for the jet dryers to do their >job, and then run some warm-up laps... Well the good ole boys in Nascar certainly do this. But in F1 you race in the rain if it is raining. Period. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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> No, idiots race in the rain. Real men wait for the jet dryers to do their > job, and then run some warm-up laps... > >Real men race in the rain.

That is the pansy way to race waiting for a jet dryer to dry everything off for you.

>Hi Greg, sorry you don't like GPL >Regards your feeling better about not buying GPL now that you have >discovered it doesn't have rain, all i can say is i feel sorry for your >misconceptions on what makes a good racing sim. I see. I feel the same way about your apparent misconceptions. So there. Really. This is encouraging. I thought it had 3dfx Glide support? F1RS does weather effects using Glide. Maybe this is why Sierra is taking the big ***:-) No I won't. Any anyone who reads this NG semi regularly will know that I have been interested in racing sims from the groups inception. Yep. Like apparently weather effects and a coherent damage model. Cool. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>Want another bummer? GPL also does not know anything about bumps in >track surfaces means its always smooth as silk. Also going thru the Huh. F1RS may have it's problems, but one thing I like is the major surface bumps are there. Like in the spoon at Suzuka, or at the slow hairpin before the main straight at silverstone just to name 2. It may not have them all, but it does have many. Huh. Huh. Surprisingly I never got that sense from reading all of the glorious reviews and other postings. Thanks. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>Oh I knew this would cause a major riot amongst the Papyrus groupies >here... lol. Well forget that other goof. He is totally mental and says so in his sig. Huh. I have had all sorts of things broken and ripped away from my car in F1RS. I actually cannot believe that F1RS would model damage better than GPL, but apparently from what you describe, it does. Quite surprising. I think I'll stick to that game and be glad I really don't like old era F1 racing. Believe it or not, I am looking for more than a driving model. Like an experience or something. If there is a GP3 and it doesn't at least have what F1RS has as a starting point (weather, FF, kick ass 3D graphics, 3D sound and digital voice comms for starters) then forget it. It will be right there with Johnny Herbert Racing as far as I am concerned :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:18:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Well the good ole boys in Nascar certainly do this. But in F1 >you race in the rain if it is raining. Period. Unless of course you are Lauda or Prost! I actually love watching racing in the rain, as it's a great equaliser of car performance and multiplier of driver ability. It's funny how the same names tend to be at the front in the rain, even people like Barrichello who you never normally see there. Cheers! John

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> >Want another bummer? GPL also does not know anything about bumps in > >track surfaces means its always smooth as silk. Also going thru the > Huh. F1RS may have it's problems, but one thing I like is the major > surface bumps are there. Like in the spoon at Suzuka, or at the > slow hairpin before the main straight at silverstone just to name > 2. It may not have them all, but it does have many.

GPL does have this type of bump, and models them very well. This guy is referring to small high frequency bumps in the pavement, not to natural undulations in the road created by the surrounding terrain. I don't know exactly what he is talking about either. Maybe that if you go off the road, traction isn't temporarily reduced when you get back on the pavement? Probably because even with the omission of weather, high frequency bumps, and FF, most people still regard GPL as far more "complete", in terms of requirements on the driver, than any other sim. It's going to be a while before any PC racing simulation will be considered complete. I'm not a fan of any particular type of racing, I just want as realistic an experience as possible. IMO, GPL gives far more of a "driving experience" than anything else! If you haven't, you really should at least give the demo a try Greg. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

He understood me pretty well. This type of small but annoying bumps is exactly what I meant, not some 'natural undulation' and it definately isn't present in GPL. Exactly. Going off the road does not have any effect whatsoever. See, that's the problem - most people tend to support one racing series or another. If all I want is "driving experience" I could do that just as good if not better in real life on any open race track. And btw considering the current wheather conditions I could make such experiences on any ordinary road ;)... Unfortunately I want a simulation and here I think it takes a bit more than an accurate (?) working car model. I second that. --Tel

>Want another bummer? GPL also does not know anything about bumps in >track surfaces means its always smooth as silk. Also going thru the >gravel or gras has no effect whatsoever on tyre behaviour etc.. HELLO??? Have you ever tried GPL at all? If you have *and* still havn't seen any bump, i suggest you try the following: Nurbugring: Cut the corners at Haltzenbach (the series of esses before the Flugplatz). Monza: The bumps down the start-straight. Spa: Run out of road after Stavelot. Mosport: Watch the car as you race from Moss hairpin towards turn 8. etc. etc.... -- All the best, Edwin Solheim **remove spamguard in address to reply** Drop by "The Paddock - a legendary site....." for some cool GPL stuff! http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock

Well, as the saying goes, "Don't knock it 'till you've tried it!" :-) --Dave

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> What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have > no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets > I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes > weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. > Sheesh it seems like everyone is all gaga over the supposed > good driving model and forgot about the weather. Weather > has been posted to death re: F1 racing sims. If people are > all of a sudden giving GPL a free pass because of the driving > model I guess I am disappointed. Falcon 4 has a great flight > model but got ripped to shreds because of a crappy campaign. > Other flight sims got crapped on because of lack of in***pit > voice/radio comms. IMHO any Formula One game is total > shit without weather effects. > Thanks for the tip. I feel better for not being interested in GPL. > A local radio station has a afternoon segment called "who are > you crappin". It sounds like we could do something similar here. > Hey Sierra! WHO ARE YOU CRAPPIN??? > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > >Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there > being > >no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL > >in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. > >Did they actually race in the rain? > >Thad

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Yep, gotta agree with you there. Apparantly bumps like you speak of would've been even MORE, a LOT more taxing on the CPU. It is somewhat unfortunate, because, like you say, it does take some of the realism out of ride heights and such. But hey, gotta do what you gotta do to go fast, regardless, right? --Dave

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> On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:42:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko" > >What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have > >no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets > >I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes > >weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. > >Sheesh it seems like everyone is all gaga over the supposed > >good driving model and forgot about the weather. Weather > >has been posted to death re: F1 racing sims. If people are > >all of a sudden giving GPL a free pass because of the driving > >model I guess I am disappointed. Falcon 4 has a great flight > >model but got ripped to shreds because of a crappy campaign. > >Other flight sims got crapped on because of lack of in***pit > >voice/radio comms. IMHO any Formula One game is total > >shit without weather effects. > Want another bummer? GPL also does not know anything about bumps in > track surfaces means its always smooth as silk. Also going thru the > gravel or gras has no effect whatsoever on tyre behaviour etc.. > Needless to say that this makes the whole setup process a farce... > It models a 67 car pretty good but as a 'simulation' it is quite far > from being complete. > --Tel

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Just to set the record straight: I was not trolling when I posted the original post. Though is was a interesting subject and also had a legit question. I didn't know for sure if they raced in the rain. Few comments: A few poster, like I, don't mind the fact that there is no rain modeled. I totally agree with Patrick who posted the following, "Also considering the extreme realism of the GPL physics engine it would be tough to recreate the effect and unpredictability of rain to the same tough standard." One poorly modeled part of any game can break the whole thing. If you can't do it correctly, then why do it. I have played too many games where they have flashy graphics and menus, but the game play stinks. One last thing. Something, that I picked up in my school days. Most children have the desire and ability to draw/paint. Most children lose their ability and desire because they can not meet their own standards of realism Those who continue, realize that they will never beable to recreate a picture/image absolutely perfectly. That said. If you try to rely upon your own ability to create realism then you just going to be disappointed. If your looking for total realism in a game, then your just going to be disappointed I could go on, but I won't. Still waiting for the perfect virtual reality racing sim. (with rain too!) and I am glad that there are company's out there that are trying to strive for perfection. Just stating my opinion. Not trying to step on toes.

: I actually love watching racing in the rain, as it's a great equaliser : of car performance and multiplier of driver ability. It's funny how : the same names tend to be at the front in the rain, even people like : Barrichello who you never normally see there. Forza Rubinho - easily my favourite driver of the current F1 mob. To get back on the topic of "rain" and GPL, I wonder how difficult a modification it would be? As a physicist, I would have thought that it would simply be a matter of saying that the coefficient of friction is reduced between tyre and track. You might want to advance this slightly to model the effect of some areas being damper than others. Also there's a slight reduction in engine power in modern F1 - odn't know about '67. I'd have thought the effect of rain would be less in '67 anyway due to the treaded tyres. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Well said, Thad. :-) --Dave

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> Just to set the record straight: I was not trolling when I posted the > original post. Though is was a interesting subject and also had a legit > question. I didn't know for sure if they raced in the rain. > Few comments: > A few poster, like I, don't mind the fact that there is no rain modeled. I > totally agree with Patrick who posted the following, "Also considering the > extreme realism of the GPL physics engine it would be tough to recreate the > effect and unpredictability of rain to the same tough standard." One poorly > modeled part of any game can break the whole thing. If you can't do it > correctly, then why do it. I have played too many games where they have > flashy graphics and menus, but the game play stinks. One last thing. > Something, that I picked up in my school days. Most children have the > desire and ability to draw/paint. Most children lose their ability and > desire because they can not meet their own standards of realism Those who > continue, realize that they will never beable to recreate a picture/image > absolutely perfectly. That said. If you try to rely upon your own ability > to create realism then you just going to be disappointed. If your looking > for total realism in a game, then your just going to be disappointed I > could go on, but I won't. > Still waiting for the perfect virtual reality racing sim. (with rain too!) > and I am glad that there are company's out there that are trying to strive > for perfection. > Just stating my opinion. Not trying to step on toes.

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Rich, Yes, a "simple" way to do it would be a change in friction. However, I think the GPL crew wanted it to be done even better than that. I read somewhere (?) that they wanted the effect of "wet on one half, dry on the other" like at Spa. They also wanted random puddles, I think... I swear I read this somewhere, so if anyone else recalls this, let me know. So these things add to the equasion... As for the rain effect being less then... I can't say for sure, but I think it would be almost the same as today. Why? Because even though the treads were present, I don't know if their pattern is anywhere near as efficient as today. From pictures, they seemed to be circumferential (sp?) bands, not unlike today's F1 tires with some "squiggles" in them. But the key reason, IMHO, is that they used the same compound tire as they did in the dry. I mean, these tires were so hard that they'd last a few RACES in the dry. A compound this hard would certainly be detrimental in the wet... again pointing to modern racing rain tires as a comparison. Those things are gooey. They don't last worth a darn in the dry because they overheat so fast. I'm interested in your theories... me being a simple computer network geek, and you being a physicist and all... :-) --Dave

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> To get back on the topic of "rain" and GPL, I wonder how difficult a > modification it would be? As a physicist, I would have thought that > it would simply be a matter of saying that the coefficient of friction > is reduced between tyre and track. You might want to advance this > slightly to model the effect of some areas being damper than others. > Also there's a slight reduction in engine power in modern F1 - odn't > know about '67. I'd have thought the effect of rain would be less > in '67 anyway due to the treaded tyres. > -- > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving > Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. > www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

So every US oval driver is a....... what? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

Greg Cisko wrote Your becoming a troll Greg ? -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Greg Cisko wrote Greg I don't know if you had the knowledge about the Ubisoft game engine but here it goes... The Z-axis effects are canned in Ubisoft. They are modeled as a dependant identity from the overall track layout. When you "load" the track, it will load a set of parameters (XYZ position) of some bumps on the track. What it means is that the game engine can't support anything else than X and Y simple elevations. It can't support banking. It can't support camber. You don't see the bumps on the track. They are invisible. When you pass on the XY position of the bump (like per example at Argentina on the backstretch), it will remember that and create the canned Z position (so if Z= 5, that means the***pit will elevate as 5). There's no real mathematical calculation like per example if you go out of the road at Zandvoort or per example the turn after *** at Monaco. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

My understanding is that the folks doing GPL were unwilling to include things which were not up to the realism standards set by the driving model. I remember quite clearly that someone involved in the project said in an interview that they could have put some cloudy graphics and fog on the screen and universally decreased the numbers used for coefficient of friction between tires and the road and called that "rain". But everyone knows that that does not come close to accurately portraying a real wet track, with areas of standing water, a partially drying line, etc...... never mind the actual physics of water interacting with those grooved tires they used back then. This would have been a complication adding (i asume) lots of time in terms of development and CPU overhead. weather effects using Glide. Maybe this is why Sierra is taking the big ***:-)>> Glide, as a graphics card driver protocol, does not "do weather effects". it is involved in making the clouds and fog seen on the screen. this is not a very realistic weather effect, at least not in terms of the standards set by GPL. F1RS does something, but it isn't rain... this is consistent with their stance on FF, "if it can't be done right, don't do it at all...." (they may want to rethink that last one, though ;) ) shit without weather effects.>> you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. but "total shit" may be a little strong. the title's developers decided it wasn't essential because it wouldn't be good enough. some other people apparently agree with them. BTW, why is weather so important to you? just curious.... seems that it wouldn't be enough to really make or break a sim for most folks.... OK, so who wouldn't agree that it would have been nice to have weather? but it isn't necessary- at least not to everyone. what the game does simulate, it does very well. well, on the other hand, the "realistic" damage model....... well......

Richard G Clegg wrote Yes I also thought about the rain effect in GPL. I think that there's 2 main thing that would need to be modeled in the game engine. There's the physical rain engine, and the graphical game engine. For me the physical engine would mean the correct coefficient of friction on each parameter (track, concrete, grass, etc..). Since Im sure they wouldn't want to model the full track equally but portions of it, it would need to model wind, windspeed, atmospherical pression, rain intensity (rain per square meters in the air AND on the track). For me it would need a great model of the drying track effects. Calculate how the track, grass, etc.. asborb the water, dependant on also how much "rain per square meter" there is on that XYZ portion of the track. It would also need to be dependant of the track architecture. Water on the track would need to flow naturally with the XYZ data of the track model. I don't think they would model canned physics here (random XYZ stuff). I think it would be done in a dynamic way that would make it realistic, not "fake" and canned as with per example the Ubisoft F1 titles. And after you also need graphical effects. Those are a little more easy and dependant still of the physical effects. You need to calculate the water dropping correctly from the tyres, graphical effects of the rain, clouds, puddles, etc.. It's far more complicated to create correctly than to make it canned and fake as some "other" company. And Im sorry Greg, Im not pro-Papyrus at all. Heck if your enough simple-minded to think like that, I lost all respect I had from you. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

For this topic I say K.I.S.S.Keep it simple stupid is what Papyrus should do to their racing sims in regards to adding rain until we get an outstanding FFB device to drive with.Driving a race car depends on feeling the grip at the front wheels thru the steering.In the rain its even more important.Now without FFB we have a hard enough time learning the tracks without feel that adding rain would just be a stupid aggravation IMO.As for F1RS,that has a terrible physics model IMO and IMO anyone who cant see this doesnt know a thing about "racing" a car.Finally IMO I feel that GPL's damage model is superb.The other night I was cruising along at the Glen and my motor blew.I read in the race report that my clutch blew!Thats the first time I blew a clutch and I didnt even know it could be blown in GPL.Slam into a wall head first and you wont damage your suspension since you didnt hit the wall with it.You can puncture tires,break your suspension,blow your motor etc...Shoot I even damaged my rear suspension once that the car fell to the ground and in outside view I could see it siiting lower then before.The thing about the damage model that sucks is that you cant feel the chassis thru your pc screen.A rear blown tire feels like a dmaged rear suspension and this is where in future Papy sims theres room for improvement.For one I would like to hear a blown tire thru the pop and the following blown tire sound we all know. Skeeter

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>Well said, Thad. :-) >--Dave >> Just to set the record straight: I was not trolling when I posted the >> original post. Though is was a interesting subject and also had a legit >> question. I didn't know for sure if they raced in the rain. >> Few comments: >> A few poster, like I, don't mind the fact that there is no rain modeled. I >> totally agree with Patrick who posted the following, "Also considering the >> extreme realism of the GPL physics engine it would be tough to recreate the >> effect and unpredictability of rain to the same tough standard." One poorly >> modeled part of any game can break the whole thing. If you can't do it >> correctly, then why do it. I have played too many games where they have >> flashy graphics and menus, but the game play stinks. One last thing. >> Something, that I picked up in my school days. Most children have the >> desire and ability to draw/paint. Most children lose their ability and >> desire because they can not meet their own standards of realism Those who >> continue, realize that they will never beable to recreate a picture/image >> absolutely perfectly. That said. If you try to rely upon your own ability >> to create realism then you just going to be disappointed. If your looking >> for total realism in a game, then your just going to be disappointed I >> could go on, but I won't. >> Still waiting for the perfect virtual reality racing sim. (with rain too!) >> and I am glad that there are company's out there that are trying to strive >> for perfection. >> Just stating my opinion. Not trying to step on toes. >-- >Dave Schwabe >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Oh please... you're not trying to tell him that those bumps should be actually *visible* are you? It's irrelevant wether this is a canned function or some sophisticated mathematical function as long as it *is there* and works as expected (on all accounts). And it is a fact, there is no such thing in GPL. --Tel

[Humor ON] I think I have the answer! I will explain. Someone that is a savvy track editor, could lower the tire traction on a given track (thus giving you rain like driving conditions), The you as the drivers would have to come up with a setup like the following. 1) Helmet (with goggles, you know, Like the type they used in 67) 2) 1- variable speed fan 3) 1 - variable pressure water supply 4) Fog Machine (Optional) Here's how it works. Set the fan in front of the your monitor (in such a place as to not block your view, but will still blow in your face.) Some how connect the variable speed fan up to the pot. on your brakes and gas pedals So, as you speed up the fan speeds up, as you brake the fan slows down. I think you get the point. Take you pressurized water supply and direct it into the back of the fan. This should spray water on your face at variable speeds, thus giving you the sensation of rain as you drive. You should have a method of adjusting how much water in sprayed into the fan (wouldn't want to much, wouldn't want in to be "raining" cats-and-dogs). Got your Helmet on? How about the goggles? Now that your goggles are fogged up, go run a few laps at the Ring. At the same time, make sure you keep your goggles clear so you can see where you are going. For added realism, add a little fog to the setup. Still working on the standing water puddles on the track, if I come up with an answer, I will let you guys know. Hey, Life begins at 180mph! (and ends when it starts to rain!) [Humor OFF] Do not hold me responsible for shorted keyboards and wheels/pedals combos, or any other electrical equipment they you might have damaged.

Greame, why don't you ask em. they always seemed to laugh when I would talk about racing in the rain and then they got real angry when I made comment about real men. Dave

See since you havnt raced gpl, you dont understand that gpl is like racing on rain, if you added rain to the game, it would just make it imposible to drive.

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>What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have >no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets >I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes >weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. >Sheesh it seems like everyone is all gaga over the supposed >good driving model and forgot about the weather. Weather >has been posted to death re: F1 racing sims. If people are >all of a sudden giving GPL a free pass because of the driving >model I guess I am disappointed. Falcon 4 has a great flight >model but got ripped to shreds because of a crappy campaign. >Other flight sims got crapped on because of lack of in***pit >voice/radio comms. IMHO any Formula One game is total >shit without weather effects. >Thanks for the tip. I feel better for not being interested in GPL. >A local radio station has a afternoon segment called "who are >you crappin". It sounds like we could do something similar here. >Hey Sierra! WHO ARE YOU CRAPPIN??? >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >>Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there >being >>no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race

GPL >>in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. >>Did they actually race in the rain? >>Thad

uhm, last time i checked, when i hit grass and gravel i didnt stick like asphalt, i believe the tires loose grip. Dont know if anyone else noticed it but the tire behavior is modeled in grass, make it sound llike you just drive right through it.

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>On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:42:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>What the hell do you mean GPL doesn't have rain? I have >>no interest in getting this game, but with all the praise it gets >>I assumed it had it all. *ALL* for a Formula1 game includes >>weather. And yes they used to race in the rain back then. >>Sheesh it seems like everyone is all gaga over the supposed >>good driving model and forgot about the weather. Weather >>has been posted to death re: F1 racing sims. If people are >>all of a sudden giving GPL a free pass because of the driving >>model I guess I am disappointed. Falcon 4 has a great flight >>model but got ripped to shreds because of a crappy campaign. >>Other flight sims got crapped on because of lack of in***pit >>voice/radio comms. IMHO any Formula One game is total >>shit without weather effects. >Want another bummer? GPL also does not know anything about bumps in >track surfaces means its always smooth as silk. Also going thru the >gravel or gras has no effect whatsoever on tyre behaviour etc.. >Needless to say that this makes the whole setup process a farce... >It models a 67 car pretty good but as a 'simulation' it is quite far >from being complete. >--Tel

so you dont care how a game drives, just that the car falls apart when you are threw driving it (sounds like you are used to seeing your car come apart). I think you need to look towards the arcade games now. You dont want to drive GPL cause ALL it has is good physics? It doesnt provide an experience? You cant say ANYTHING about gpl EVER, you cant critisize it you cant do anything to it cause you have never raced it as you said before.

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>>Oh I knew this would cause a major riot amongst the Papyrus groupies >>here... lol. >Well forget that other goof. He is totally mental and says so in >his sig. >>btw this goes to Greg, I forgot one thing in my previous post... the >>damage model when set to *realistic* provides a few good laughs too. >>Don't take it too serious if you end up with everything intact after >>5 meters airborn stunt with a double salto...or if you're touching >>those hedges and hayballs at 200+ kph don't worry, worst thing that >>could happen will be a not properly work wheel here and there >>(although I still have to find out whether it's suspension or just the >>tyre that gave up the ghost). >>Of course it's a bit different with a frontal impact on a wall... you >>can actually loose a wheel or two here! ;> >Huh. I have had all sorts of things broken and ripped away from >my car in F1RS. I actually cannot believe that F1RS would model >damage better than GPL, but apparently from what you describe, >it does. Quite surprising. >I think I'll stick to that game and be glad I really don't like old >era F1 racing. Believe it or not, I am looking for more than a >driving model. Like an experience or something. If there is a GP3 >and it doesn't at least have what F1RS has as a starting point >(weather, FF, kick ass 3D graphics, 3D sound and digital voice >comms for starters) then forget it. It will be right there with Johnny >Herbert Racing as far as I am concerned :-) >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:42:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Hey Sierra! WHO ARE YOU CRAPPIN??? It's obvious that you are basing your opinions on some kind of hatred directed towards this product, not on actual driving experience. How much credibility do you think you have when you come here and say "I haven't tried the damn thing, I hate it, it sucks"... Well ok these aren't exactly your words but that's what I gathered from your comments. Anyway you've found a wonderful way to make lots of friends here. Being that stubburn and obnoxious really makes everyone wanting to discuss with you. I really don't understand, I remember seeing a lot of your posts here, and never read one that feels so immature. Ok, you can comment on things you've actually tried, but as far as commenting sims you haven't tried yet and are not even willing to try, I don't think I want to read these kind of posts. Of course, GPL lacks in some domains. Rain is a good example. But it has many other qualities that makes it worth buying anyway. I race a lot with GPL, mostly on VROC, and I can honestly say I never found myself thinking "hell, why isn't it raining?"... You need to grow up. Oh and one last thing: *Plonk* (for a few weeks anyway) A. Renault

You say you want a game that has more than just an accurate driving model. See people thing thats all GPL it, you get a piece of asphalt and drive the accurate model. The graphics are great, the setup options are all there AND you actually get to see tire temps for camber, there are also other cars to race against which some people seem to forget. No one thinks that the racing in GPL is good but you can have some awesome battles and know you cant just bash into others like in some games. Play the game before you say stuff about how the only thing going for it is its driving model. Wosco

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>>GPL does have this type of bump, and models them very >>well. This guy is referring to small high frequency >>bumps in the pavement, not to natural undulations in >>the road created by the surrounding terrain. >He understood me pretty well. This type of small but annoying bumps is >exactly what I meant, not some 'natural undulation' and it definately >isn't present in GPL. >>I don't know exactly what he is talking about >>either. Maybe that if you go off the road, >>traction isn't temporarily reduced when you >>get back on the pavement? >Exactly. Going off the road does not have any effect whatsoever. >>I'm not a fan of any particular type of racing, >>I just want as realistic an experience as >>possible. IMO, GPL gives far more of a >>"driving experience" than anything else! >See, that's the problem - most people tend to support one racing >series or another. If all I want is "driving experience" I could do >that just as good if not better in real life on any open race track. >And btw considering the current wheather conditions I could make such >experiences on any ordinary road ;)... Unfortunately I want a >simulation and here I think it takes a bit more than an accurate (?) >working car model. >>If you haven't, you really should at least >>give the demo a try Greg. >I second that. >--Tel

yeah they race in teh rain alright but they have to have some little car out there escorting them or they just run into the back of the competators coming through the fog (happened 3 times i hear). Jesse

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>>No, idiots race in the rain. Real men wait for the jet dryers to do their >>job, and then run some warm-up laps... >Well the good ole boys in Nascar certainly do this. But in F1 >you race in the rain if it is raining. Period. >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

to do the puddles, have a random electric motor put on your pot that overrides the steering input and brake input so that it will cut in and if you are braking, it will randomly override the brakes and make them less or full so they lock up and you cant brake and with steering, when you are in the turn and you hit a puddle, it makes you steer less, of course, randomly. Also you can link it to the pressurized water supply andwhen it decides to hit a puddle, the machine sprays out more water. Jesse

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>[Humor ON] I think I have the answer! >I will explain. Someone that is a savvy track editor, could lower the tire >traction on a given track (thus giving you rain like driving conditions), >The you as the drivers would have to come up with a setup like the >following. >1) Helmet (with goggles, you know, Like the type they used in 67) >2) 1- variable speed fan >3) 1 - variable pressure water supply >4) Fog Machine (Optional) >Here's how it works. Set the fan in front of the your monitor (in such a >place as to not block your view, but will still blow in your face.) Some >how connect the variable speed fan up to the pot. on your brakes and gas >pedals So, as you speed up the fan speeds up, as you brake the fan slows >down. I think you get the point. Take you pressurized water supply and >direct it into the back of the fan. This should spray water on your face

at >variable speeds, thus giving you the sensation of rain as you drive. You >should have a method of adjusting how much water in sprayed into the fan >(wouldn't want to much, wouldn't want in to be "raining" cats-and-dogs). >Got your Helmet on? How about the goggles? Now that your goggles are fogged

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>up, go run a few laps at the Ring. At the same time, make sure you keep >your goggles clear so you can see where you are going. For added realism, >add a little fog to the setup. >Still working on the standing water puddles on the track, if I come up with >an answer, I will let you guys know. >Hey, Life begins at 180mph! (and ends when it starts to rain!) >[Humor OFF] >Do not hold me responsible for shorted keyboards and wheels/pedals combos, >or any other electrical equipment they you might have damaged.

Hey! This it! We could market it as the AWDC (All Weather Driving Console)! Get together with the company that sells the $20,000 miniture race cars for just racing sims. >to do the puddles, have a random electric motor put on your pot that >overrides the steering input and brake input so that it will cut in and if >you are braking, it will randomly override the brakes and make them less or >full so they lock up and you cant brake and with steering, when you are in >the turn and you hit a puddle, it makes you steer less, of course, randomly.

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>Also you can link it to the pressurized water supply andwhen it decides to >hit a puddle, the machine sprays out more water. >Jesse >>[Humor ON] I think I have the answer! >>I will explain. Someone that is a savvy track editor, could lower the

tire

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>>traction on a given track (thus giving you rain like driving conditions), >>The you as the drivers would have to come up with a setup like the >>following. >>1) Helmet (with goggles, you know, Like the type they used in 67) >>2) 1- variable speed fan >>3) 1 - variable pressure water supply >>4) Fog Machine (Optional) >>Here's how it works. Set the fan in front of the your monitor (in such a >>place as to not block your view, but will still blow in your face.) Some >>how connect the variable speed fan up to the pot. on your brakes and gas >>pedals So, as you speed up the fan speeds up, as you brake the fan slows >>down. I think you get the point. Take you pressurized water supply and >>direct it into the back of the fan. This should spray water on your face >at >>variable speeds, thus giving you the sensation of rain as you drive. You >>should have a method of adjusting how much water in sprayed into the fan >>(wouldn't want to much, wouldn't want in to be "raining" cats-and-dogs). >>Got your Helmet on? How about the goggles? Now that your goggles are >fogged >>up, go run a few laps at the Ring. At the same time, make sure you keep >>your goggles clear so you can see where you are going. For added realism, >>add a little fog to the setup. >>Still working on the standing water puddles on the track, if I come up

with

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>>an answer, I will let you guys know. >>Hey, Life begins at 180mph! (and ends when it starts to rain!) >>[Humor OFF] >>Do not hold me responsible for shorted keyboards and wheels/pedals combos, >>or any other electrical equipment they you might have damaged.

>Greg Cisko wrote >>Well forget that other goof. He is totally mental and says so in >>his sig. >Your becoming a troll Greg ? Well your sig does say you are retarded. I figure that is pretty close to mental :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>so you dont care how a game drives, just that the car falls apart when you >are threw driving it (sounds like you are used to seeing your car come >apart). I think you need to look towards the arcade games now. You dont Actually you would have to wreck to have your car fall apart. I generally stay in one piece. However when you wreck, you should wreck and your car should disintegrate as appropriate. The FF in F1RS even properly models flat tires. That is not to bad as far as I can tell. I never said that. You did. I said I didn't like that era of racing, you somehow equated that to me saying that I don't like GPL because all it has is good physics. I guess I thought it had more than good physics. I was surprised and said so. Next thing I know I get all you ***weasels up my rear. Well great. Have I actually said that GPL was shit? No. I said that I would find it surprising that F1RS would model damage better than GPL. I also said weather should be included. Of course judging from all the crying about weather it seems too tough for most of you :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>See since you havnt raced gpl, you dont understand that gpl is like racing >on rain, if you added rain to the game, it would just make it imposible to >drive. I assume the same thing happened in real life right? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:42:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>Hey Sierra! WHO ARE YOU CRAPPIN??? >It's obvious that you are basing your opinions on some kind of hatred >directed towards this product, not on actual driving experience. How Hate? No I don't think so. Surprise? Yes. I imagine you would interprut it that way. As I said before I was simply surprised. Also I asked a few questions and started a discussion. A discussion which many apparently don't want to hear. Sheesh I'm really sorry I brought up some questions about the bad points of GPL. F1RS has many bad points (track elevations being the biggest). I was somehow able to manage through that without having a girlie hissie fit. Swell. Hey that is what killfiles or simply passing on my posts will get you. Be sure to cover your ears and tell me you can't hear me :-) Ok that is great. Right... Hey, *Plonk* "THIS". I'll be remembering this one (longer than a few weeks). Thanks much. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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>On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:18:29 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >>Well the good ole boys in Nascar certainly do this. But in F1 >>you race in the rain if it is raining. Period. >Unless of course you are Lauda or Prost!

Well you are certainly correct there. However after the wreck Prost had in the rain (got rear ended tires touched and the other car got launched I believe) I really never could blame him for being scared. I'm sure I am only brave because I am driving behind a monitor :-) Yep. I think T. Boutsen(sp?) was only able to win in a crash filled raining GP of canada in the 80's. I know that was his first win, did he ever win again? I doubt it. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

First off it seems like gpl is too tough for you. You havnt even tried the game. quote... everyone is all gaga over the supposed good driving model and forgot about the weather that says right there, the driving model is great, doesnt have weather so it sucks basically. quote... Believe it or not, I am looking for more than a driving model. Like an experience or something. looks like you are saying it is only a driving model, you want an experience, gpl isnt an experience though? hehe, i can see you looking at your completly torn apart F1 car in the mist (or as f1rs calls it, rain) thinking, now thats an experience. oh well im done arguing for now. You seem to think that the key to an awesome game is that it must be capable of making polygons go spreading across the track (F1rs have fire?) and has to have a rain like look (mist in f1rs's case). Who cares about the driving model cause it is too hard. F1rs was a good game for when it was released. Has the same old physics as all the other games. GPL is a change in the normal routine. An actual challenge. If you want to critisize the game for being too hard for you or because you dont want to buy it, great for you but next time, play the game and critisize it for something that you can back up. Jesse

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>>so you dont care how a game drives, just that the car falls apart when you >>are threw driving it (sounds like you are used to seeing your car come >>apart). I think you need to look towards the arcade games now. You dont >Actually you would have to wreck to have your car fall apart. I generally >stay in one piece. However when you wreck, you should wreck and your >car should disintegrate as appropriate. The FF in F1RS even properly >models flat tires. That is not to bad as far as I can tell. >>want to drive GPL cause ALL it has is good physics? It doesnt provide an >I never said that. You did. I said I didn't like that era of racing, you >somehow equated that to me saying that I don't like GPL because >all it has is good physics. I guess I thought it had more than good >physics. I was surprised and said so. Next thing I know I get all >you ***weasels up my rear. Well great. >>experience? You cant say ANYTHING about gpl EVER, you cant critisize it >you >>cant do anything to it cause you have never raced it as you said before. >Have I actually said that GPL was shit? No. I said that I would find it >surprising that F1RS would model damage better than GPL. I also >said weather should be included. Of course judging from all the crying >about weather it seems too tough for most of you :-) >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>yeah they race in teh rain alright but they have to have some little car out >there escorting them or they just run into the back of the competators >coming through the fog (happened 3 times i hear). You hear? Hows about actually watching the races this year then see how you feel about it. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >Jesse >>>No, idiots race in the rain. Real men wait for the jet dryers to do their >>>job, and then run some warm-up laps... >>Well the good ole boys in Nascar certainly do this. But in F1 >>you race in the rain if it is raining. Period. >>-- >>Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >>cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Ronald Stoehr wrote lol ;-) Well people want it correctly done with mathematical physics and dynamic weather or canned like some "other" Formula 1 software ? If Papyrus see that presently modeling a accurate dynamic weather is impossible with today's hardware, what's the point of creating one botched and canned ? -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

well see back then, they had something called a race car. You sat in it, it gave you feedback when you drove. In gpl, you have no direct feedback, you cant feel the back end come around on you or catching the bumps and feel the steering wheel respond as it pushes off in the turn or the brakes become squishy when they lock up.....etc.....so if they added rain to the game, there would be no way to feel what you need to feel as you drive to successfully drive in the rain, it is hard enough to get a feel for the game as it is, in the rain, it would be just much more imposible because in rain it is even more critical to have feedback because of random puddles and dry spots. But look at me, im trying to explain to you about how the driving is in GPL and you havnt played it so you cant judge anything like that. I dont know why im argueing with someone like you. Its like me going up to you and saying, your moms great in bed or something like that. Bye for uhh maybe an hour, before I have to explain my point from a different point of view again until you can realise you need to get the game before you start judging it or the people that play it. Jesse

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>>See since you havnt raced gpl, you dont understand that gpl is like racing >>on rain, if you added rain to the game, it would just make it imposible to >>drive. >I assume the same thing happened in real life right? >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

he is right though, for papy to do weather you need all that stuff, they do stuff right when they do it, they wont do a halfassed job like other companies. You need rain on different parts of the track, varied amounts in the air and on track (different drag levels), puddles, dry spots, places where the sun shines through the clouds for different areas of teh track drying, different temps at diff parts of the track for drying, and they cant just have an option you can turn on to make it rain. They need to have it where not just a random number but where it models a weather system and has a factor like how close to a body of water (monaco would rain more often) and this dynamic weather system would have to have different amounts of rain and all, you cant just have rain and no rain. You have to be driving and it gets cloudy, then get sprinckls at different parts of the track, then a downpour, then you have the after the storm effects with the drying of the track, a rainbow, you get what im saying. You cant just have canned weather effects where track is a little slippery and has some fog, it would have to be a dynamic weather system for papy to do it. Jesse

Hmm, quote... IMHO any Formula One game is total shit without weather effects thats starting a discussion alright. I believe you just called grand prix legends, uhhh, total shit. No further questions your honor. Jesse

why should i watch it? you never played gpl, hehe, taste of your own medicine. Jesse

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>>yeah they race in teh rain alright but they have to have some little car >out >>there escorting them or they just run into the back of the competators >>coming through the fog (happened 3 times i hear). >You hear? Hows about actually watching the races this year >then see how you feel about it. >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >>Jesse >>>>No, idiots race in the rain. Real men wait for the jet dryers to do

their

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>>>>job, and then run some warm-up laps... >>>Well the good ole boys in Nascar certainly do this. But in F1 >>>you race in the rain if it is raining. Period. >>>-- >>>Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >>>cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

i call 80% of the profit!

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>Hey! This it! We could market it as the AWDC (All Weather Driving >Console)! Get together with the company that sells the $20,000 miniture >race cars for just racing sims. >>to do the puddles, have a random electric motor put on your pot that >>overrides the steering input and brake input so that it will cut in and if >>you are braking, it will randomly override the brakes and make them less

or

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>>full so they lock up and you cant brake and with steering, when you are in >>the turn and you hit a puddle, it makes you steer less, of course, >randomly. >>Also you can link it to the pressurized water supply andwhen it decides to >>hit a puddle, the machine sprays out more water. >>Jesse >>>[Humor ON] I think I have the answer! >>>I will explain. Someone that is a savvy track editor, could lower the >tire >>>traction on a given track (thus giving you rain like driving conditions), >>>The you as the drivers would have to come up with a setup like the >>>following. >>>1) Helmet (with goggles, you know, Like the type they used in 67) >>>2) 1- variable speed fan >>>3) 1 - variable pressure water supply >>>4) Fog Machine (Optional) >>>Here's how it works. Set the fan in front of the your monitor (in such a >>>place as to not block your view, but will still blow in your face.)

Some

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>>>how connect the variable speed fan up to the pot. on your brakes and gas >>>pedals So, as you speed up the fan speeds up, as you brake the fan slows >>>down. I think you get the point. Take you pressurized water supply and >>>direct it into the back of the fan. This should spray water on your face >>at >>>variable speeds, thus giving you the sensation of rain as you drive. You >>>should have a method of adjusting how much water in sprayed into the fan >>>(wouldn't want to much, wouldn't want in to be "raining" cats-and-dogs). >>>Got your Helmet on? How about the goggles? Now that your goggles are >>fogged >>>up, go run a few laps at the Ring. At the same time, make sure you keep >>>your goggles clear so you can see where you are going. For added

realism,

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>>>add a little fog to the setup. >>>Still working on the standing water puddles on the track, if I come up >with >>>an answer, I will let you guys know. >>>Hey, Life begins at 180mph! (and ends when it starts to rain!) >>>[Humor OFF] >>>Do not hold me responsible for shorted keyboards and wheels/pedals

combos, >>>or any other electrical equipment they you might have damaged.

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>>I imagine you would interprut it that way. As I said before I was simply >>surprised. Also I asked a few questions and started a discussion. >>A discussion which many apparently don't want to hear. >Hmm, >quote... >IMHO any Formula One game is total >shit without weather effects >thats starting a discussion alright. I believe you just called grand prix >legends, uhhh, total shit.

OK you may have a point there :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Yeah....but their cars were far more realistic than ours. |o) -- #33 Spa...not yet. >Before GPL came out, I heard a few people mention/complain about there being >no weather (to be specific: RAIN). Can you just imagine trying to race GPL >in the rain! If it was an option, I would never turn it on.... Thats all. >Did they actually race in the rain? >Thad

big snip ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ahem, are you saying that the bump(jump) at *** Square doesn't exist? Are we using the same Sim here? Mike

snip

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> Yes I also thought about the rain effect in GPL. > I think that there's 2 main thing that would need to be modeled in the game > engine. There's the physical rain engine, and the graphical game engine. > For me the physical engine would mean the correct coefficient of friction on > each parameter (track, concrete, grass, etc..). Since Im sure they > wouldn't want to model the full track equally but portions of it, it would > need to model wind, windspeed, atmospherical pression, rain intensity (rain > per square meters in the air AND on the track). For me it would need a > great model of the drying track effects. Calculate how the track, grass, > etc.. asborb the water, dependant on also how much "rain per square meter" > there is on that XYZ portion of the track.

Yeah, and they definitely should do a fourier analysis over the specific grip levels of selected tire particles on sub-atom resolution, or something like that... Geez, if you have demands like that, the current dry weather physics of GPL should really disappoint you. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:47:18 -0600, "Greg Cisko" >Well you are certainly correct there. However after the wreck Prost had >in the rain (got rear ended tires touched and the other car got launched >I believe) I really never could blame him for being scared. I'm sure I >am only brave because I am driving behind a monitor :-) Was it Prost who was involved in Pironi's accident? I can't remember, but someone launched Pironi which essentially ended his career. Boutsen won again at least once I can remember, at Hungaroring in 1990. I remember his holding off a charging Senna for quite a few laps (it said rather more about Hungaroring and the speed of the Williams-Renault on the straights rather than Boutsen AFAI recall). Cheers! John

Irrelevant? It's _highly_ relevant whether you can actually _see_ what's coming up ahead or whether you have to memorise every little bump around the Nurburgring. It would look a bit wierd at Monaco if your car suddenly started flating half-way down out of *** as well! Fact? My eyes doth deceive me! All that camber, those bumps, those elevations - all products of my fevered imagination. Cheers! John

"Was it Prost who was involved in Pironi's accident? I can't remember, but someone launched Pironi which essentially ended his career." Right, in practice at Hockenheim ' 82. A Saturday afternoon wet practice. Pironi had already gotten pole during the dry Friday run, and was working on a wet set-up when he and Prost came together.

Two other wins, first there was Adelaide '89 held in near-monsoon conditions and then Hungaroring '90 where he held off Senna for the lead for most of the race. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

>"Was it Prost who was involved in Pironi's accident? I can't remember, >but someone launched Pironi which essentially ended his career." >Right, in practice at Hockenheim ' 82. A Saturday afternoon wet practice. >Pironi had already gotten pole during the dry Friday run, and was working on >a wet set-up when he and Prost came together. That is a much better memory than I had. I only remembered he had an incident. Thanks, -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>>And it is a fact, there is no such thing in GPL. >Fact? My eyes doth deceive me! All that camber, those bumps, those >elevations - all products of my fevered imagination. Oh boy... Once again, this is *NOT* what I am talking about. That is bumps, ripples, you know those things that should force you to modify spring/damper/bump *** settings. I know quite well that there are track elevations in GPL...geez --Tel

OK, I'm a little too young to remember this wreck, heh. What happened exactly? Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimilted ICRCS Director http://members.aol.com/Gibby545/ICRCS/ICRCS.html

have you ever raced at monaco? I believe there is a hump in the road there, a fact is completely true, uhh it is a fact that there is no bumps in GPL, cmon, next time say, there are few bumps, not that it is a fact that there are NONE.

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>>>And it is a fact, there is no such thing in GPL. >>Fact? My eyes doth deceive me! All that camber, those bumps, those >>elevations - all products of my fevered imagination. >Oh boy... Once again, this is *NOT* what I am talking about. That is >bumps, ripples, you know those things that should force you to modify >spring/damper/bump *** settings. I know quite well that there are >track elevations in GPL...geez >--Tel

nice talking with you greg. Finally got to an understanding. Jesse {Header was intentionally scrambled and then put back together so that it looks just the way it used to be}

exactly? Basically what is contained in the quote above . Pironi rear ended prost, only their tires touched and this launched him over prost (who thought he was almost killed in the incident). -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>Just to set the record straight: I was not trolling when I posted the >original post. Really? You just posted a doubt into this hotbed of fundamentalist GPL'ers and you're surprised at the response? You'd better check any suspicious packages you get in the post - oh , and look under your car before you get in it ;-) Anyway, to get back to your original question, have you actually tried driving a sim in the rain? The only one I know of is good old GP1 and I never got *anywhere* in the rain on that. I'd crank up the downforce to try and get some grip, only for the AI to leave me for dead down the straights and still corner faster than me. The reduced visibility was modelled pretty well, as in you could see practically nothing with another car right in front of you, but I thought it was a waste of time. Succeeding programmers seem to agree and drop rain first when the project is running late (skip this bollocks about the physics being too complicated - Papyrus just wanted to get the damn thing out the door). Tony Whitley Please remove 'spam' to reply.

> he is right though, for papy to do weather you need all that stuff, they do > stuff right when they do it, they wont do a halfassed job like other What do you call the canned wheel spin in N2. We all are quite happy with it, as it is the only way to get out of the pits in one piece... The most realistic flightsims use SOME not so accurate "cheats" to maintain a needed minimum framerate. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> Ronald Stoehr wrote > >Yeah, and they definitely should do a fourier analysis over the specific > >grip levels of selected tire particles on sub-atom resolution, or something > >like that... > lol ;-) > >Geez, if you have demands like that, the current dry weather physics of GPL > >should really disappoint you. > Well people want it correctly done with mathematical physics and dynamic > weather or canned like some "other" Formula 1 software ? If Papyrus see > that presently modeling a accurate dynamic weather is impossible with > today's hardware, what's the point of creating one botched and canned ?

Well, I loved the way the weather changes in MGPR. And I don't need a live data feed to some weahter station that controls the weather. It's okay that the weather changes by calling rand()... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

It was at the 1982 German GP in Hockenheim. Prost was out in Saturday practice, and taking it quite easy (it was torrential rain). Pironi, a contender for the championship, was out trying to get as much track time in as possible in case of a wet race, and ploughed into the back of Pros. His Ferrari was launched over the back of Prost's Renault, crashed down to earth again on the track and Pironi was badly injured. He survived the accident, although I don't know if he ever cam back to F1, but he was killed in a powerboat race in, I think, 1987. Ironically enough there was talk of an F1 comeback around the time he was killed. Cheers! John

You need to work on your writing clarity - whether or not that's what you were talking about we can't hear you. We can only ready what you write. Bumps are there insofar as they are in any other sim - that is, far from perfect so far, but well worthy of comparison with anything else on the market. Cheers! John

It was a low-visibility wheel-over-wheel accident. Pironi's crash was much like his team-mate Villeneuve's at Zolder the same year. He was very lucky not to suffer the same fate as well. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

There's nothing magic about modeling weather effects on a race car. Certainly nothing that pushes it beyond the ability of the hardware. Now, it is different. You have to worry about hydroplaning, the heating model is different, etc. But that doesn't take more processing power. It just takes more development time. Mighty

>There's nothing magic about modeling weather effects on a race car. >Certainly nothing that pushes it beyond the ability of the hardware. >Now, it is different. You have to worry about hydroplaning, the heating >model is different, etc. But that doesn't take more processing power. >It just takes more development time. Well Drake, I would think that dynamic grip indeed does add to the need of processing power. Remco

>You need to work on your writing clarity - whether or not that's what >you were talking about we can't hear you. We can only ready what you >write. <shrug> some here apparantly didn't have such difficulties to understand what I meant. You mean track elevations - not bumps in the track surface. --Tel

"Apparently"? You did take a poll of everyone's comprehension (or otherwise) of your remark before letting forth this pearl of sweeping generalisation? No? Bzzzzt, thanks for playing... No, I mean bumps. B-U-M-P-S - quite different from E-L-E-V-A-T-I-O-N-S. What Cleaseau might have called "boompee", "ze trek, at zat point, ken be veree boompee" Cheers! John

says...

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> >There's nothing magic about modeling weather effects on a race car. > >Certainly nothing that pushes it beyond the ability of the hardware. > >Now, it is different. You have to worry about hydroplaning, the heating > >model is different, etc. But that doesn't take more processing power. > >It just takes more development time. > Well Drake, > I would think that dynamic grip indeed does add to the need of > processing power. > Remco

I'm not familiar with that term. Though I can probably guess pretty much what it means. Even without understanding it, I'd wager that it's possible to build a few lookup tables to handle it. One for each type of tire that takes into account the water depth, car speed and the angle of incidence. That implies some sort of drainage model for the tracks, which would also be pre-calculated and stored with the track. None of it sounds too expensive in processor time. Just very time consuming for the track and tire modelers. And time consuming for the programmers to experiment to see what needs to be modeled at that detail and what can be fudged with simple modifiers to what's already there. Today's machines have so much memory that it can really change the nature of a problem. On a flight sim I just worked on, the lead programmer used SGIs to model the airflow over the airfoils at one-degree increments and at similarly smooth transitions in airspeed and altitude (don't remember those increments.) It took about a week for each airfoil. All of that info was stored in some megabyte-or-so tables that are used at runtime. The flight sim is Fighter Squadron:Screamin' Demons over Europe (I hate that name :-) and its flight models are considered very high fidelity. Obviously, I'm doing a lot of guessing here. But my contention is that the bottleneck was probably development time, not processor usage at runtime. Mighty

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> > If Papyrus see > > that presently modeling a accurate dynamic weather is impossible with > > today's hardware, what's the point of creating one botched and canned ? > There's nothing magic about modeling weather effects on a race car. > Certainly nothing that pushes it beyond the ability of the hardware. > Now, it is different. You have to worry about hydroplaning, the heating > model is different, etc. But that doesn't take more processing power. > It just takes more development time.

It depends entirley to what degree you wish to model the physics of a wet track. To model even a single puddle of standing water to any degree of accuracy would involve calculating it's dispertion should (say) a fast moveing tyre pass through it. At the other end, you could just add in some 'fudges' (I would perhaps say more aggregate factoring) such as you seem to suggest. For my money GPL is a good product with mostly good compromises in focus (such as missing out weather (anyone seen a thermometer in GPL, or wind? (something that was in ICR)) in favor of better things in the basics). What pappy have done they have done well. As a testbed for technology which must form the strategic backbone of pappys next generation of racing sims, it bodes of lurvley succulent little simulators for our delictation in the future. Mmmmm, yum. -- Suck The Goat

Hi Drake,

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>Even without understanding it, I'd wager that it's possible to build a >few lookup tables to handle it. One for each type of tire that takes >into account the water depth, car speed and the angle of incidence. That >implies some sort of drainage model for the tracks, which would also be >pre-calculated and stored with the track. None of it sounds too >expensive in processor time. Just very time consuming for the track and >tire modelers. And time consuming for the programmers to experiment to >see what needs to be modeled at that detail and what can be fudged with >simple modifiers to what's already there.

One aspect of wet weather is the constant changing condition of the track. You get pools, puddles, streams, dry places, and the track get dry at the racing line. That's a simulation of his own. Currently, GPL doesn't support high frequency bumps and dynamic camber. The reason is lack of processing power. Modelling of rain is more processor hungry as modelling the latter. Your solution, i.e. table based grip parameters, is actually the same as a track with different (fixed) grip parameters with some eyecandy. Racing in the rain is different, it is adapting to the constantly changing conditions. Look at F1RS of Ubisoft, then you'll understand what I am trying to explain. (IMO Ubisoft did not model rain well, qua driving model. The eye candy was ok, though.) There is a lot to model in dry conditions, yet. Think about aerodynamica, marbles at the track, and these things I already mentioned. Of course I like to have rain in GPL. But if this lacks the quality of the rest of the sim, then I'll pass. Remco