GPL - Late Braking

I'm finding trail braking very hard, but think that I will need to master it to get much faster. I've watched some of the faster guys like Ian Parker and Rick Prydden in practice sessions and they seem to brake very much later than I do. If I try to brake when they do, I just overshoot the corner. Any tips, please? Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul, Firstly I dont think I'm that fast :) What brake bias setting do you use? I find that if I use brake bias of about 57 -58 %, I'd often lock the front wheels going into the corners but since lowering to 52 - 54 % I can brake much later. The downside to this is that it's very easy to lock up a rear in the corner if you dont finish braking in a straight line. Are you using split axis on your controller? If so, using a lower brake bias is easier than with a combined axis because when the rear's do begin to lock,a bit of gas can help to steady things up while still on the brakes and without upsetting the balance too much. The most important thing is to be smooth and not lock the wheels up. As for R Prydden, I think he's just a mental driver :-). I've known him for years, and before GPL we were very closely matched on all games / sims. Times within half a second over race distances usually. Now in GPL he is about a second a lap faster than me on all tracks except Mosport,Zandvoort and the Nurburgring. BTW he uses a GP1 wheel, I use a MS FF. Maybe the speed he can get on the gas / brakes is faster with the GP1 :) -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 >I'm finding trail braking very hard, but think that I will need to >master it to get much faster. I've watched some of the faster guys like >Ian Parker and Rick Prydden in practice sessions and they seem to brake >very much later than I do. If I try to brake when they do, I just >overshoot the corner. Any tips, please? >Cheers, >Paul

Thanks Ian - I'll try these tips. I've just installed independant brakes/throttle and was finding it much easier to lock up. So I switched back decided I preferred independant switched back again and now I'm so confused I've lost half a second at each track :-) Fast is a relative thing. To me the car disappearing over the horizon when I'm at full throttle is fast - no doubt you see other people do that to you but I don't even know they're there :-) Thanks again for the setups - I've been meaning to mail you proper to thank you - soon! Cheers, Paul

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> Hi Paul, > Firstly I dont think I'm that fast :) > What brake bias setting do you use? I find that if I use brake bias of > about 57 -58 %, I'd often lock the front wheels going into the corners but > since lowering to 52 - 54 % I can brake much later. The downside to this is > that it's very easy to lock up a rear in the corner if you dont finish > braking in a straight line. > Are you using split axis on your controller? If so, using a lower brake bias > is easier than with a combined axis because when the rear's do begin to > lock,a bit of gas can help to steady things up while still on the brakes and > without upsetting the balance too much. The most important thing is to be > smooth and not lock the wheels up. > As for R Prydden, I think he's just a mental driver :-). I've known him for > years, and before GPL we were very closely matched on all games / sims. > Times within half a second over race distances usually. Now in GPL he is > about a second a lap faster than me on all tracks except Mosport,Zandvoort > and the Nurburgring. > BTW he uses a GP1 wheel, I use a MS FF. Maybe the speed he can get on the > gas / brakes is faster with the GP1 :) > -- > Ian Parker > ICQ 21772592 > >I'm finding trail braking very hard, but think that I will need to > >master it to get much faster. I've watched some of the faster guys like > >Ian Parker and Rick Prydden in practice sessions and they seem to brake > >very much later than I do. If I try to brake when they do, I just > >overshoot the corner. Any tips, please? > >Cheers, > >Paul

I've found that that brake modulation, (once or twice) helps me out enormously in trail-braking......

Try with brake balance set to 55% or 54% (for Lotus that is, may be higher for other cars) and do not downshift immediately, you should rather listen to the tire squeel. Brake so that you can hear occasional squeel or squeel all the time but make sure you don't lock up, downshift when on lower revs. But I may be completely wrong :o) Tadej Krevh Lotus Internet Racing organization http://members.xoom.com/LotusRacing/

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> I'm finding trail braking very hard, but think that I will need to > master it to get much faster. I've watched some of the faster guys like > Ian Parker and Rick Prydden in practice sessions and they seem to brake > very much later than I do. If I try to brake when they do, I just > overshoot the corner. Any tips, please? > Cheers, > Paul

> Thanks Ian - I'll try these tips. I've just installed independant <snip> In addition to Ian's words, a Jim Clark tip: "Some people brake so late, in fact too late, so they brake too much...it's better to brake eariler and less, helps to keep the speed up.." Easy-peasy :-D Matt -- ----------------------------------------- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/simrace1.htm -----------------------------------------

If you are wrong how fast will you go when you get it right!

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>Try with brake balance set to 55% or 54% (for Lotus that is, may be higher >for other cars) >and do not downshift immediately, you should rather listen to the tire >squeel. Brake so that you >can hear occasional squeel or squeel all the time but make sure you don't >lock up, downshift when >on lower revs. >But I may be completely wrong :o) >Tadej Krevh >Lotus Internet Racing organization >http://members.xoom.com/LotusRacing/

Sounds similar to Jackie Stewart's reported advice to one D. Coultard a few years ago. At least the TV crews (ESPN) reported it. Stewart told DC it looked as though he was driving too far into the corner and throwing his rhythm off. DC apparently found a good bit of speed from following this advice.

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>In addition to Ian's words, a Jim Clark tip: >"Some people brake so late, in fact too late, so they brake too >much...it's better to brake eariler and less, helps to keep the speed >up.." >Easy-peasy :-D >Matt >-- >----------------------------------------- >Matthew Knutsen >"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons >http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/simrace1.htm >-----------------------------------------

% In addition to Ian's words, a Jim Clark tip: % "Some people brake so late, in fact too late, so they brake too % much...it's better to brake eariler and less, helps to keep the speed % up.." This is all too true. I have done my share of VROC racing and the one place I see this happening all the time is at Monza going into the first Lesmo. This and the Parabolica are the 2 places people seem to want to try late/heavy braking. I like to take these nice and easy. Most people who barrel into the 1st Lesmo, end up losing too much speed getting through the turn and slip too far to the outside early. It's a piece of cake to let them barrel in and slip by nice and easy on the inside and beat them to the 2nd Lesmo. The same holds true for the Parabolica. Anytime I see anyone flying in my mirrors to this corner, I just brake slow and easy, letting them fly by and then pass them on the inside, while they fight to keep their car on the track. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Yes - it's far more valuable to brake a bit early and enter the corner at an accurate speed rather than be the last of the late brakers and maybe slow down too much or not enough. - Michael

Martin Brundle is always describing that third Michael (Michael Schumacher) as the last of the late brakers. Apparently, he drives his cars on the ragged edge and wrings every last ounce from them rather than stroking them around gently, and he has the third best wins to starts ratio in Formula 1 history (after Clark and Fangio). If you can brake later than the next person but have your car going in the same direction at the same speed and in the same position on the track when you've finished braking then surely you will return faster laptimes, though perhaps the difference is small. Maybe it's a matter of style and setup. Cheers, Paul > Yes - it's far more valuable to brake a bit early and enter the corner at an > accurate speed rather than be the last of the late brakers and maybe slow > down too much or not enough. > - Michael

Every time I brake early, someone runs into the back of me 2 seconds later... sigh...

Hi, You have a valid point , I have found that very often I brake so late and hard that I am losing exit speed and am therefore slower along the next straight, especially at Spa and Monza where getting up to speed as soon as possible is the order of the day. Slower in = Faster out. I need more practice :) -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 >> Thanks Ian - I'll try these tips. I've just installed independant ><snip> >In addition to Ian's words, a Jim Clark tip: >"Some people brake so late, in fact too late, so they brake too >much...it's better to brake eariler and less, helps to keep the speed >up.." >Easy-peasy :-D >Matt >-- >----------------------------------------- >Matthew Knutsen >"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons >http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/simrace1.htm >-----------------------------------------

% > % >This is all too true. I have done my share of VROC racing and the one % >place I see this happening all the time is at Monza going into the first % >Lesmo. This and the Parabolica are the 2 places people seem to want to % >try late/heavy braking. I like to take these nice and easy. Most % >people who barrel into the 1st Lesmo, end up losing too much speed % Every time I brake early, someone runs into the back of me 2 seconds % later... sigh... Move off line. If they are truly faster, they won't be around long for you to worry about. If they aren't, chances are they will blow the turn and you shouldn't see them again, once you get by. ;-) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

There's always an exception to the rule:-) The best of the best can brake extremely late *and* guarantee an accurate corner entry speed lap after lap. If you can do this then all things being equal you will get a faster lap time. For us ordinary mortals it's a bit different! - Michael

and yet when I race the AI cars Surtees will ALWAYS barrel past me on the brakes hard and late and still make the corner while i'm braking much earlier and still losing out. I've managed low 1.29's at Monza but i KNOW i'm losing loads of time in braking at Lesmo 1 and Parabolica, I just can't seem to get it right. Surtees makes me mad! the one time i saw him go wide at the parabolica he put 2 wheels on the grass and just continued powering down the straight - very very annoying! yeah i know - practice practice ;) -- Mike Buckley Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd Tel: 44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: 44 (0)1472 371208 WWW: www.toastyhamster.freeserve.co.uk

I was practising for this big Slovenian GPL competition with prizes that will take place on Saturday. You can read more on our homepage... :o) P.S. : I'm having a fun of my life racing with default setups, because I really have to fight for positions. Top speed and general straight line speed are about 5 to 10kmh lower so I have to make up the difference in the corners :o) It's more fun then 'hotlapping' infront of the field ;o) Tadej Krevh Lotus Internet Racing organization http://members.xoom.com/LotusRacing/

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> On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:37:54 -0000, "Tony Rickard" > >If you are wrong how fast will you go when you get it right! > >>But I may be completely wrong :o) > >>Tadej Krevh > Damn right! Me with full-on short race setup could not pass Tadej at > Monza when he was using default setups. I could've cried in frustration. > -- > Derek James

Rookie mistakes <g> :o) Try that on some 1:27's Monza guy and all you'll be doing in Parabolica is waving him goodbye... Really, brake as late as you can, as hard as you can and make sure you don't fight the car in the corner (or drift wide for that matter). As a matter a fact, try to drift as little as possible. IMO when drifting you scrubb off speed. Tadej Krevh Lotus Internet Racinf organization http://members.xoom.com/LotusRacing/

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> % In addition to Ian's words, a Jim Clark tip: > % "Some people brake so late, in fact too late, so they brake too > % much...it's better to brake eariler and less, helps to keep the speed > % up.." > This is all too true. I have done my share of VROC racing and the one > place I see this happening all the time is at Monza going into the first > Lesmo. This and the Parabolica are the 2 places people seem to want to > try late/heavy braking. I like to take these nice and easy. Most > people who barrel into the 1st Lesmo, end up losing too much speed > getting through the turn and slip too far to the outside early. It's a > piece of cake to let them barrel in and slip by nice and easy on the > inside and beat them to the 2nd Lesmo. The same holds true for the > Parabolica. Anytime I see anyone flying in my mirrors to this corner, I > just brake slow and easy, letting them fly by and then pass them on the > inside, while they fight to keep their car on the track. > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> Move off line. If they are truly faster, they won't be around long for > you to worry about. If they aren't, chances are they will blow the turn > and you shouldn't see them again, once you get by. ;-) > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I've been racing gpl just about every night on VROC,and multi crashes going into the 1st or 2nd turn at Monza and Watkins Glen is a given with a field of 6 or more cars. After practice someone always reminds the drivers to take it easy for the 1st lap and let the field spread out. Afterall,the race is won by being 1st on the last lap,not the 1st. Everyone agrees,and wishes "gl" to all. Then the flag is thrown,and the accidents are everywhere. At Monza,I've seen them 3 wide heading down towards the 1st turn. Guess what,no one makes it through. Why practice for 20-30 min only to be wiped out before the 1st lap is over. And your idea of moving off line doesn't work often. I know,'cause I try it all the time. As an example,late last night I joined a race with 15 others at the Glen for "serious" racers only. I only managed to qualify with a 1:11. I started the race 13th in my Ferrari. You guessed it,big accident. I managed to weave my way through the carnage with just being hit once in the rear,but saved it because I was literally crawling. I finished the 1st lap in 5th. Moved up to 4th with 4 laps to go,then had a big case of brain fade and spun out. finished in 5th. My point is that I'm by no means fast,just consistent. Many a Lotus driver has complained that I brake to early for them. But trying to brake as late as a Lotus,constantly puts me into the woods. It's their responsibility to drive around you,not through you. Unfortunately,this isn't the case very often. Joel Willstein

I agree Joel... sometimes people just get a little too much adrenaline going. If, and it's a BIG if, people are careful, it can be great tho. But getting taken out my other people's mistakes is always a peril. I was in a different race at the Glen last night, a "no lotus, eagle, ferrari" so I joined with my little Brabham, which is virtually as fast there as anything but the Lotus. I was leading and easing away, trying not to make mistakes. I come around big bend, ready for the left kink before the "90." All of a sudden, a BRM comes out of the ditch on the left side going backwards right on the racing line! Now maybe putting the brakes on didn't help, but if you biff the wall, hit your brakes if you can! That will help prevent this. Needless to say, I was on top of him before I knew it, no time to react. The crash was unbelievable... the wacky GPL crash model at work again. I'll post the biff on my site soon. --dave

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> I've been racing gpl just about every night on VROC,and multi > crashes going into the 1st or 2nd turn at Monza and Watkins Glen is a > given with a field of 6 or more cars. After practice someone always > reminds the drivers to take it easy for the 1st lap and let the field > spread out. Afterall,the race is won by being 1st on the last lap,not > the 1st. Everyone agrees,and wishes "gl" to all. Then the flag is > thrown,and the accidents are everywhere. At Monza,I've seen them 3 wide > heading down towards the 1st turn. Guess what,no one makes it through. > Why practice for 20-30 min only to be wiped out before the 1st lap > is over. And your idea of moving off line doesn't work often. I > know,'cause I try it all the time. > As an example,late last night I joined a race with 15 others at the > Glen for "serious" racers only. I only managed to qualify with a 1:11. I > started the race 13th in my Ferrari. You guessed it,big accident. I > managed to weave my way through the carnage with just being hit once in > the rear,but saved it because I was literally crawling. I finished the > 1st lap in 5th. Moved up to 4th with 4 laps to go,then had a big case of > brain fade and spun out. finished in 5th. > My point is that I'm by no means fast,just consistent. Many a Lotus > driver has complained that I brake to early for them. But trying to > brake as late as a Lotus,constantly puts me into the woods. It's their > responsibility to drive around you,not through you. Unfortunately,this > isn't the case very often. > Joel Willstein

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

um yeah - that might have been the race I was in (first VROC race for me). Qualified fifth on outside row, I was sure there was gonna be a pile up so moved half onto the grass, didn't matter - someone hit me from behind, but that didn't matter either cos the first row had already piled up anyway. Finished first lap sixth then everyone behind me dropped out. Are people only racing to win and if they don't get a good start then they disconnect? :( It wouldn;t matter to me where I was in the race as long as i was racing with another player - finishing up the order is just a bonus. Good point, I was driving within myself to try and stay online, it didn't work due to inexperience of cold tyres/heavier fuel load at the Glen, but I still had fun for a few laps c ya on VROC -- Mike Buckley Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd Tel: 44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: 44 (0)1472 371208

Surtees is the most dangerous driver in GPL. I've clashed with him many a time. As to your main point, don't worry - the AI drivers are too fast at some points on the circuit and too slow at others, it usually evens out to a good lap time. They are wickedly fast into and thru Lesmo 1 and Parabolica, but slow into Curva Grande. The same applies at many other circuits - you really notice it at the 'Ring where you can get stuck behind a normally quick driver for a long section. - Michael

% I've been racing gpl just about every night on VROC,and multi % crashes going into the 1st or 2nd turn at Monza and Watkins Glen is a % given with a field of 6 or more cars. After practice someone always % reminds the drivers to take it easy for the 1st lap and let the field % spread out. Afterall,the race is won by being 1st on the last lap,not % the 1st. Everyone agrees,and wishes "gl" to all. Then the flag is % thrown,and the accidents are everywhere. At Monza,I've seen them 3 wide % heading down towards the 1st turn. Guess what,no one makes it through. Heck, they usually don't make it to turn 1 at Monza! Some hotfoot with cold tires is slithering from side to side like a snake on a hot tin roof, taking out 3/4's of the field before they can get to the braking point of turn 1. I think we need to have a means of checking the vision and color blindness of drivers that sign up on VROC. Many of them seem to see the green flag as a black and white checkered flag. All I can say is that it is better now than it was when VROC first started, but on the starts, not a whole lot better. But, even in some of the closed leagues, these incidents still happen. However, thankfully they aren't as often. % Why practice for 20-30 min only to be wiped out before the 1st lap % is over. And your idea of moving off line doesn't work often. I % know,'cause I try it all the time. Unfortunately, at most tracks with everyone going bananas on the starts the only place that can be considered offline is in the pits. :-( But moving off line (well in advance so as to telegraph your intentions to the hotheaded pursuer) can work well after the 1st lap melee. And I agree with you that it is the "overtaker's" responsibility to judge the driving abilities and styles of the overtakee (this includes lapping situations). This is even more important as there is almost always new "talent" on the track at most VROC events. I almost think that we need to have some VROC sessions that are mostly "practice" starts. For every 100 laps someone puts in on a track, they may only do 1-2 standing starts with a grid of cars. Maybe the hosts should announce a password after the number of drivers have shown up. Move the race to the passworded room and run 4-5 practice starts (just force the race with random grid). Force the drivers to practice the starts with a full grid. Then they can reset and allow for 15-20 minutes of practice/qualifying. <snip> % My point is that I'm by no means fast,just consistent. Many a Lotus % driver has complained that I brake to early for them. But trying to % brake as late as a Lotus,constantly puts me into the woods. It's their % responsibility to drive around you,not through you. Unfortunately,this % isn't the case very often. While we are ranting/venting... Every Monday night, a small group of us like to run some open VROC races. We have been making them open to all. But last Monday night may have been the last such open event. Why? Because too many drivers showed up that had no respect for others on the track. We are racing for fun, but we take this fun seriously. And for once, it wasn't Lotus drivers causing all the problems. The first event was at Monaco (yeh, I know a tough track to race online). I would say about 80% of those connected (15 in total), were driving sanely during practice. However, there were a few Beavis & Buttheads out there that totally ignored anyone else on the track. One was driving a Coventry and was bouncing off the walls as if in a pinball game. He was making good time, and the Coventry is built like a tank and could take the abuse. However, during these little bumper shoots, one could easily slip by as he was peeling himself off the Armco. But, the idiot would gather it back up and try to get back around in the next turn and totally shunt you out of the way to do it. Needless to say, it only took 2 or 3 such drivers to ruin it for the others. I had some drivers who just disconnected and gave up. We won't even talk about the start where one driver (coulda been the same idiot) had a bad start off the grid, but decided he could make up for it by making a mad dash to the first turn and ended up taking out all but the leader. On the other hand, we also had some very gracious and concientious drivers out there on the track. Ones that would move out of the way during practice to allow faster cars to pass, or until they could get their car back under control. To all of you drivers (fast or slow) who drive with this awareness of others on the track, a big THANKS! You are why racing on VROC is still fun. . . Next round we tried Mexico.... You guessed it the same type of rotten apples showed up.... I gave up hosting and decided to join a Monza race... Same type of behavior persisted there. It was sorta like since there isn't any Monday Night Football now, some jocks decided they needed to recreate it on VROC that night. Oh, and how well did I do? Managed to work my way through the carnage at Monaco to finish 2nd and finished 1st at Mexico, got disco'd as I tried to hang onto 3rd with a Honda at Monza.... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Rookie mistakes <g> :o) % Try that on some 1:27's Monza guy and all you'll be doing in Parabolica is waving % him goodbye... Which is what one should be doing. :-) If you aren't running in the 1:27's and someone is barreling up on you, don't go out of your way to take both of you out.... Let them by and continue on your merry way... Trying to block a driver that is definately much faster than you is not clean racing or even sportsmanship. Now, don't get me wrong. I see nothing wrong about making one's car as wide as possible to keep a marginally faster car behind you. But, if you are watching your mirrors, you can tell whether the guy making the passing attempt is much faster than you. % Really, brake as late as you can, as hard as you can and make sure you don't % fight the car % in the corner (or drift wide for that matter). As a matter a fact, try to drift % as little as possible. % IMO when drifting you scrubb off speed. Actually drifting to scrub off speed is part of the trick to running in late and hard going into a turn. The scrubbing of speed is how you can manage to brake so late and still make it through the turn with good speed. % > % > % In addition to Ian's words, a Jim Clark tip: % > % > % "Some people brake so late, in fact too late, so they brake too % > % much...it's better to brake eariler and less, helps to keep the speed % > % up.." % > % > This is all too true. I have done my share of VROC racing and the one % > place I see this happening all the time is at Monza going into the first % > Lesmo. This and the Parabolica are the 2 places people seem to want to % > try late/heavy braking. I like to take these nice and easy. Most % > people who barrel into the 1st Lesmo, end up losing too much speed % > getting through the turn and slip too far to the outside early. It's a % > piece of cake to let them barrel in and slip by nice and easy on the % > inside and beat them to the 2nd Lesmo. The same holds true for the % > Parabolica. Anytime I see anyone flying in my mirrors to this corner, I % > just brake slow and easy, letting them fly by and then pass them on the % > inside, while they fight to keep their car on the track. % > % > -- % > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* % > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. % > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Surtees is the most dangerous driver in GPL. I've clashed with him many a > time. Nah, it's Jochen Rindt! Check in dejanews for my post - Jochen Rindt is a menace! Actually, since reverting my AI ini file to Papy's original settings, I have had no problems with any bad driving from the AI. Sure they make the occasional mistake, but that's part of the fun and realism. Dave Ewing

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:01:34 +0100, Tadej Krevh >P.S. : I'm having a fun of my life racing with default setups, because I >really have to fight for positions. > Top speed and general straight line speed are about 5 to 10kmh >lower so I have to make up > the difference in the corners :o) It's more fun then 'hotlapping' >infront of the field ;o) Just use one of the Trainers against GP cars ... :-) That would be fun for hotlap heros as well as turtles like me. Even at Spa, an AT can go below 3:40 and keep up with some VROC drivers. -- _____ /_______\ .\\ a t t h e a d I XT /~~~~ I 500\_____ 1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro \____/\__I_I http://matthead.home.pages.de/

I really did mean 2 seconds later... some people just don't pay attention in the races! I can be a whole straightaway ahead of them, but as soon as I brake early, wham, they hit me ;) I'm one of those slower computer/driver people you read about in the tabloids, but I try to be very courteous out there (maybe I'm more gentlemanly cuz I'm a lady?), and I will always let the obviously faster car go on by me...

And if Surtees is behind you at Nurburgring, you have two choices: 1. Let him past 2. Say your prayers

Hi Michael, I had some pretty bad PRO open races last week. 10 starters and only 2 finishers. Thats why I'm hosting passworded (PRC) races exclusively now. If there are only 5 PRC drivers there is a 95% chance we will all finish the race -- and have some great battles to boot. Jason.

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> % I've been racing gpl just about every night on VROC,and multi > % crashes going into the 1st or 2nd turn at Monza and Watkins Glen is a > % given with a field of 6 or more cars. After practice someone always > % reminds the drivers to take it easy for the 1st lap and let the field > % spread out. Afterall,the race is won by being 1st on the last lap,not > % the 1st. Everyone agrees,and wishes "gl" to all. Then the flag is > % thrown,and the accidents are everywhere. At Monza,I've seen them 3 wide > % heading down towards the 1st turn. Guess what,no one makes it through. > Heck, they usually don't make it to turn 1 at Monza! Some hotfoot with > cold tires is slithering from side to side like a snake on a hot tin > roof, taking out 3/4's of the field before they can get to the braking > point of turn 1. > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

-------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

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>Hi Michael, >I had some pretty bad PRO open races last week. 10 starters and only 2 >finishers. >Thats why I'm hosting passworded (PRC) races exclusively now. If there are only >5 PRC drivers there is a 95% chance we will all finish the race -- and have some >great battles to boot.

Hi Jason, Except if some ***head actually is too tired to race. Sorry Tim! :-( Geez, what a brain fade I had on that Monza race. I believe Tim had no damage, but I feel bad anyway. Sorry again. Remco

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> um yeah - that might have been the race I was in (first VROC race for > me). Qualified fifth on outside row, I was sure there was gonna be a > pile up so moved half onto the grass, didn't matter - someone hit me > from behind, but that didn't matter either cos the first row had already > piled up anyway. Finished first lap sixth then everyone behind me > dropped out. Are people only racing to win and if they don't get a good > start then they disconnect? :(

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm racing to enjoy good clean racing. If the start is a massive pileup, I'm completely demotivated to stay in the race. Whether I come out of the pileup in first place or last, I lose interest. If the start is clean, I'll stay in, even if I'm dead last and losing ground. Trips

I've seen "PRC server" on VROC frequently. That's an acronym for what? Password Race Control, perhaps? Curiously, I think generally I've seen it in the open rooms.

Hey! I resembl . . . , er, . . . RESENT that! :^/

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>and yet when I race the AI cars Surtees will ALWAYS barrel past me on >the brakes hard and late and still make the corner while i'm braking >much earlier and still losing out. I've managed low 1.29's at Monza but >i KNOW i'm losing loads of time in braking at Lesmo 1 and Parabolica, I >just can't seem to get it right. Surtees makes me mad! the one time i >saw him go wide at the parabolica he put 2 wheels on the grass and just >continued powering down the straight - very very annoying!

] Advice from a guy with a slow system. If you only race against 5 cars, YOU'LL NEVER SEE SURTEES!!!! There you go, I knew my crappy computer would be valuable to help someone. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

I like the AI - they may ram you a bit sometimes, but they are also amazingly forgiving at getting out of the way as you barrel past them. Most of the time, if you have the racing line they'll move over. Surtees excepted of course:-) - Michael

% >% Every time I brake early, someone runs into the back of me 2 seconds % >% later... sigh... % > % >Move off line. If they are truly faster, they won't be around long for % >you to worry about. If they aren't, chances are they will blow the turn % >and you shouldn't see them again, once you get by. ;-) % I really did mean 2 seconds later... some people just don't pay attention % in the races! I can be a whole straightaway ahead of them, but as soon as % I brake early, wham, they hit me ;) % I'm one of those slower computer/driver people you read about in the % tabloids, but I try to be very courteous out there (maybe I'm more % gentlemanly cuz I'm a lady?), and I will always let the obviously faster % car go on by me... I must admit, that I have on occasion run over a slower driver by mistake. This is usually because I have followed them a bit around part of the track and they are doing fairly well. I can tell they are slower, but all of a sudden, when the hit what should be a fast turn on the course (the bend at Rouen going into the long back straight), they let up alot. Sometimes these things just happen. Apparently they are just unsure of themselves and the track and do just the opposite one would expect. I try real hard not to run over anybody (the faster folks usually don't have anything to worry about <G>). A couple of times of late at Monaco, I've learned how patience can really pay off. I've been stuck behind slower cars (sometimes lappers who are color blind and see the blue flag as green "keep racing hard"). My patience of not forcing a pass presented me with a 1st, 2nd, and a 3rd on different occasions. And this has been from having to start way back due to first lap mayhem (ahemm). This is still all new to all of us (even the old timers). And even though we are complaining abit, things aren't as bad as they were when we first started racing GPL online. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hi Jack, PRC stands for Pro Racing Club. We are a group of clean drivers. We still make mistakes (See Remco's reply above), but far less than you see on open races. With a group of clean racers you can host your own series (for the group) and be satisfied you won't have crazy people join. I hold a weekly spec race Fridays for the group -- check the sig for the URL and choose PRC Spec race for more information. The only way into the PRC is by a recommendation by other members. If your interested, email me -- use the email from my webpage. Thanks, Jason. > I've seen "PRC server" on VROC frequently. That's an acronym for what? > Password Race Control, perhaps? > Curiously, I think generally I've seen it in the open rooms. -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Of course, if you're in a race of your own, you can't always just disappear off the racing line. Those doing the lapping have to be aware of this. I'd hope to be aware of it, if I ever actually (sigh) find myself passing someone . . . >> Blue flag in GPL means "there's a car behind you" rather than "move over". >> I agree that if someone is flying up behind you that you should move over. >> We can only hope that drivers have enough of a sense of preservation and >> fair play to hold their line and let you get by ... >In a race, I interpret the blue flag as mandatory and to mean MOVE OFF THE >RACING LINE letting the person who is lapping you exit a corner on the fastest >line. The is nothing to be gained by racing or blocking someone who is lapping >you and it is only sporting to allow them the fastest exit. This is mandatory >in many modern real-life racing and I see no difference in GPL. >You mention "hold their line" - this does not feel right to me. >In practice I think that you should obey the blue flag, and get off the line, >unless you are on a hot lap. Specifically, I think that you should do so if >you are on your non-flying lap or if you have already screwed up any chance of >getting a reasonable time. >Cheers, >Paul

Blue flag in GPL means "there's a car behind you" rather than "move over". I agree that if someone is flying up behind you that you should move over. We can only hope that drivers have enough of a sense of preservation and fair play to hold their line and let you get by ... Mike

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>I've been stuck behind slower cars (sometimes lappers >who are color blind and see the blue flag as green "keep racing hard"). >My patience of not forcing a pass presented me with a 1st, 2nd, and a >3rd on different occasions. And this has been from having to start way >back due to first lap mayhem (ahemm). >This is still all new to all of us (even the old timers). And even >though we are complaining a bit, things aren't as bad as they were when >we first started racing GPL online. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Blue flag in GPL means "there's a car behind you" rather than "move over". > I agree that if someone is flying up behind you that you should move over. > We can only hope that drivers have enough of a sense of preservation and > fair play to hold their line and let you get by ... In a race, I interpret the blue flag as mandatory and to mean MOVE OFF THE RACING LINE letting the person who is lapping you exit a corner on the fastest line. The is nothing to be gained by racing or blocking someone who is lapping you and it is only sporting to allow them the fastest exit. This is mandatory in many modern real-life racing and I see no difference in GPL. You mention "hold their line" - this does not feel right to me. In practice I think that you should obey the blue flag, and get off the line, unless you are on a hot lap. Specifically, I think that you should do so if you are on your non-flying lap or if you have already screwed up any chance of getting a reasonable time. Cheers, Paul

Well, I did realize on thing real quick. Once when I had a guy who was rcing for postion with me and He was a bit quicker, I let him by and he showed me how to pass the guy infront of me. Then after a few laps he popped his motor so I gained back the postion I gave away and he gave me some insight into getting by the guy I was behind for 3 laps. Passing lapped cars is tough too. Most guys don't see that blue flag, I think, especially if they are in a postion fight of their own. Having to follow lapped cars is tough but is part of racing, I personally don't expect any room given when trying to pass a lapped car, They may be having problems just keeping up, so filling their mirriors may be enough to get by. Dave

On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 02:31:01 +0000, Paul Jones

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>> Blue flag in GPL means "there's a car behind you" rather than "move over". >> I agree that if someone is flying up behind you that you should move over. >> We can only hope that drivers have enough of a sense of preservation and >> fair play to hold their line and let you get by ... >In a race, I interpret the blue flag as mandatory and to mean MOVE OFF THE >RACING LINE letting the person who is lapping you exit a corner on the fastest >line. The is nothing to be gained by racing or blocking someone who is lapping >you and it is only sporting to allow them the fastest exit. This is mandatory >in many modern real-life racing and I see no difference in GPL. >You mention "hold their line" - this does not feel right to me. >In practice I think that you should obey the blue flag, and get off the line, >unless you are on a hot lap. Specifically, I think that you should do so if >you are on your non-flying lap or if you have already screwed up any chance of >getting a reasonable time. >Cheers, >Paul

I think you get shown a blue flag when ANYONE comes up behind you, not just someone who is lapping you. I do agree completely that if you're being lapped, you should, if possible, move off the racing line to let them through. However, what about when, say, you have just made slight error leaving a corner, and at the next corner you are shown the blue flag, meaning the car you were 2 secs ahead has now caught you. Assuming you yourself are now back up to racing speed, then I don't think you are obliged to move over. I've had many races where my qualifying times are around 131 at Monza, and there are 3 or 4 ahead with times from 128-130. Lets says they all have a startline bingle, and I find myself leading. As they slowly catch me up, should I move over and let them past? It's a dilemma I am often faced with, and I think it depends on the circumstances. Generally, if I'm not actually being lapped, I feel it is fair enough for me to hold my usual line. Where it gets tricky is on those corners where I need all the track, eg the 1st Lesmo. There, if I am to get a decent lap time, I have to skid from the left of the track to the right as I enter the corner. This, however, makes it impossible for anyone behind to pass safely. So should I, say, stick to the inside line and therefore lose half a second but allow the cars behind to pass on the outside if they're good enough? or just keep driving normally and hope those behind have the patience to pick a different spot to pass? I usually base my decision on my perception of the speed difference. That is, if they seem considerably quicker than me, best to let them through as quickly as possible and try to follow them. But if they are only marginally quicker, or if the race has only a few laps to run (say the last quarter of the entire race), then I usually will drive normally, or even a little defensively. By defensively, I mean I will take the inside line down the straight to the Parabolica (for example), so if they want to pass, they will have to go around the outside. Also, I may slow a little more than usual mid corner in order to get the best possible drive out of the corner - this again makes the car behind earn their position if they want to overtake. (Only a little slower I stress - my overall lap time would be the same as normal) It is, however, not always easy to know what the "right" thing to do is. I especially worry about how much the problems with the net and lag etc add to the difficulties of those overtaking - ie I don't want to keep people behind me just because to them I'm warping all over the track so they can't get past. So I tend to err on the side of letting people through, when perhaps in a lag free world I would have fought it out. (I did that last week - let a car behind through - only to realise there was only 1 lap to go and I had just surrendered 3rd place - and ended up less than a second behind at the finish. Clearly (in retrospect) I had every right to NOT let the car through on that occasion anyway!) So I do agree about ALWAYS letting lappers through. But when you're on the same lap, it just depends on the circumstances. Cheers Alan.

% I think you get shown a blue flag when ANYONE comes up behind you, not % just someone who is lapping you. I do agree completely that if you're % being lapped, you should, if possible, move off the racing line to let % them through. When GPL is working properly the blue flag works differently during practice and race. During practice anytime a car gets within a certain following distance from you, a blue flag is waved to inform you that there maybe a faster car attempting to pass you. Common racing etiquette says you should move offline at the next "safe" part of the track to allow them to pass. However, as has been mentioned in other posts, if you are on that "hotlap" during your qualifying run, go for it. However, the blue flag is used differently during the race in GPL (and it almost always works right -- the only expection is during clock smashes or then the checkered is being displayed at the S/F line). Again, it is only common race driver etiquette (but also a "safety" issue) to heed the blue flag advisory as soon as it is safely possible. If you are doing hot battle with another car, just be aware that someone will be attempting to pass you and they are probably a whole lot faster than you are. From the GPL README.TXT file: Blue: The blue flag means that a car is approaching you from behind and may wish to pass. This is an advisory flag only. You are not required to let the car pass. In races, the blue flag is only displayed if the car behind is one or more laps ahead of you. This usually means that it is a faster car, so pay more attention to it in races. <snip> -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Of course, if you're in a race of your own, you can't always just disappear > off the racing line. Those doing the lapping have to be aware of this. I'd > hope to be aware of it, if I ever actually (sigh) find myself passing > someone . . . I've read quite a few posts about passing a lapped car,and showing some respect for the slower driver. Unfortunately,it seems that there are those drivers racing on VROC think that gpl is nascar online. I'm not the fastest guy in the world,but I can run decent and consistent laps in my Ferrari. Yet time and time,I get rear ended after a faster driver brakes much later than I do in his Lotus. The same applies to the terrible starts that are so common. It's like a demolition derby. By now you would think the these over zealous drivers would realize that 2 cars can't occupy the same section of track at the same time. Brake a little earlier till the field thins out. Why just last night,I only qualified 14th out of 20 cars. Yet after the usual 1st lap crash heading into the 1st turn braking points, I slowed way down and off line. I crossed the start/finish line for lap 2 in 4th place. Joel Willstein

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>I usually base my decision on my perception of the speed difference. >That is, if they seem considerably quicker than me, best to let them >through as quickly as possible and try to follow them. But if they are >only marginally quicker, or if the race has only a few laps to run >(say the last quarter of the entire race), then I usually will drive >normally, or even a little defensively. >It is, however, not always easy to know what the "right" thing to do >is.

(big snip of great stuff) You're right, it's not easy to know, but you seem to have it figured out. You're the kind of guy I wish all race fields were made up of. People who think like this should be the only ones allowed to have modems. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

> I've had many races where my qualifying times are around 131 at > Monza, > and there are 3 or 4 ahead with times from 128-130. Lets says they > all > have a startline bingle, and I find myself leading. As they slowly > catch me up, should I move over and let them past? No. Generally racing etiquette says if you are racing for position (which in this instance you would be) then you are entitled to stay on the racing line, (which is the usual racing line *you* take, not necessarily the accepted racing line?) and the driver challenging you for that position has to get past as best he can. However, you should not deliberately block any other driver in an attempt to stop them overtaking you. There is a fine line between driving defensively and deliberately blocking? Moving to the inside on the entrancec to a corner is fine, provided you clearly indicate what you are doing, and stick to that line (unless you make a mistake?) Consistently weaving all over the track or deliberately driving erratically, or even brake testing opponents, would not be acceptable. When you are not racing for position (ie: being lapped) then it is common courtesy (as far as I am aware, there are no *rules* that say you *have* to let drivers lap you? it *is* racing after all!) to move over to let the faster driver through. However, you do not need to immediately jump out of the way, you can move over when it suits you (within reason), at a convenient place on the track, say after the exit to from a corner leading to a long straight. There should be no need for you to lose unnecessary time in letting an opponent overtake. And likewise the overtaking driver should not try and barge his way through, he should wait for an adequate overtaking opportunity to present itself (ie: if the driver in front makes an error, or if he can pass on say, a long straight?) or until the driver ahead moves over. 8-) *Peter* #:-)

: When you are not racing for position (ie: being lapped) then it is : common courtesy (as far as I am aware, there are no *rules* that say : you *have* to let drivers lap you? it *is* racing after all!) to move : over to let the faster driver through. Nowadays, there are rules to say that you have to let the faster driver through. A stationary blue flag is show to indicate to you that you are holding up a faster driver. A waved blue flag indicates that you will be disqualified if you pass three waved blue flags. I don't know what the case was in '67 though nor do I know about the rules for when you hold out waved and stationary blue flags (I've only ever seen it for people being lapped). -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

a standing blue flag indicates there is someone behind you ... if you are not lapped, you can hold him all you want monaco 92 is a good example, I still have those last ten laps Mansell - Senna :) McKafre De La Rosa *** R E P S O L ***

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> Nowadays, there are rules to say that you have to let the faster >driver through. A stationary blue flag is show to indicate to you that >you are holding up a faster driver. A waved blue flag indicates that >you will be disqualified if you pass three waved blue flags. I don't >know what the case was in '67 though nor do I know about the rules for >when you hold out waved and stationary blue flags (I've only ever seen >it for people being lapped). >-- >Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving >Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. >www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

: a standing blue flag indicates there is someone behind you ... if you are : not lapped, you can hold him all you want Indeed - that's what I said. I've only seen the waved blue flag for people being lapped. (Although there was an incident last year when two drivers who were racing thought it had been shown to them - it was in fact being shown to a pair of drivers ahead of them - and the leading driver of the pair racing moved over). What I would like to know is: a) What was the situation re: blue flags in '67 and b) Are there precise rules for a waved blue. : monaco 92 is a good example, I still have those last ten laps Mansell - : Senna :) I seem to remember that Gilles Villeneuve once held up a train of about 5 cars for the last part of a race (wasn't interested in F1 myself in those days) and went on to win. And they say modern F1 has passing problems. I can't imagine an on-line race where someone could hold up so many people without disaster occuring. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

I did this with Mike Laskey during a LAN weekend we had. He qualified over 1.5s faster than me at Watkins Glen, I took the lead off the line and held it for 9 or 10 laps with him literally all over the back of my car. Without a doubt the most stressful race I've had, I was knackered by the time it finished. The credit for that has to go to the driver following, and kudos to Mike for having the patience and skill to drive so closely without forcing an incident. It was a great race. I think the more people you have in the train the more chance someone will get too eager or get a touch too close and the whole train will be wiped out. As opposed to real life, online there's too much to gain with too little to lose. Cheers! John

Richard G Clegg wrote I think it's more because they "couldn't" pass Gilles ;-) (I think this was a race where he had a tyre problem but still won, at Kyalami) -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Oh...... I thought the race was at Jarama? And the reason he was so slow was because the 1981 Ferrari was, er, a four-wheeled turd :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

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> : When you are not racing for position (ie: being lapped) then it > is : common courtesy (as far as I am aware, there are no *rules* > that say : you *have* to let drivers lap you? it *is* racing after > all!) to move : over to let the faster driver through. > Nowadays, there are rules to say that you have to let the faster > driver through. A stationary blue flag is show to indicate to you > that > you are holding up a faster driver. A waved blue flag indicates > that > you will be disqualified if you pass three waved blue flags. I > don't > know what the case was in '67 though nor do I know about the rules > for > when you hold out waved and stationary blue flags (I've only ever > seen > it for people being lapped).

Yeah, I knew this, I meant no rules in GPL? 8-) *Peter* #:-)

% > I can't imagine an on-line race where someone could hold up so many % >people without disaster occuring. % I did this with Mike Laskey during a LAN weekend we had. He qualified % over 1.5s faster than me at Watkins Glen, I took the lead off the line % and held it for 9 or 10 laps with him literally all over the back of % my car. Without a doubt the most stressful race I've had, I was % knackered by the time it finished. <snip> I usually don't get a good run off the grid, but when ever I find myself in front a faster car (on the same lap and fighting for position), they will have to earn the pass. That's racing. I don't chop, but I do protect my line. In almost all cases of this online, the better the driver behind me, the better the race for both parties. There are a few hotshoe hotheads who can't muster the patience required to work for the pass. But, when the faster driver is patient and races clean, they usually end up commenting on how "great" the challenge was. In most cases the really fast never get a chance to race with anyone. Besides there is nothing more rewarding than a well earned pass in GPL. Victories are nice, but without having had to dice for it, they are somewhat hollow. Just my humble opinion... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> >(I think this was a race where he had a tyre problem but still won, at > >Kyalami) > Oh...... I thought the race was at Jarama? And the reason he was so slow > was because the 1981 Ferrari was, er, a four-wheeled turd :-) It was a four-wheeled turd packing a rocket..it was fast as hum down the straights! :) Matt -- ----------------------------------------- Matthew Knutsen "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/simrace1.htm -----------------------------------------

You nailed that Michael. Dicing with anyone close to your own abilities, doing it clean, and working to either pass or hold your position *cleanly*--it's the ultimate e***ment that GPL has to offer. Brett On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:36:31 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

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>I usually don't get a good run off the grid, but when ever I find myself >in front a faster car (on the same lap and fighting for position), they >will have to earn the pass. That's racing. I don't chop, but I do >protect my line. In almost all cases of this online, the better the >driver behind me, the better the race for both parties. There are a few >hotshoe hotheads who can't muster the patience required to work for the >pass. But, when the faster driver is patient and races clean, they >usually end up commenting on how "great" the challenge was. In most >cases the really fast never get a chance to race with anyone. Besides >there is nothing more rewarding than a well earned pass in GPL. >Victories are nice, but without having had to dice for it, they are >somewhat hollow. >Just my humble opinion... >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:36:31 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

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>I usually don't get a good run off the grid, but when ever I find myself >in front a faster car (on the same lap and fighting for position), they >will have to earn the pass. That's racing. I don't chop, but I do >protect my line. In almost all cases of this online, the better the >driver behind me, the better the race for both parties. There are a few >hotshoe hotheads who can't muster the patience required to work for the >pass. But, when the faster driver is patient and races clean, they >usually end up commenting on how "great" the challenge was. In most >cases the really fast never get a chance to race with anyone. Besides >there is nothing more rewarding than a well earned pass in GPL. >Victories are nice, but without having had to dice for it, they are >somewhat hollow. >Just my humble opinion...

And I agree wholeheartedly! I've been in a race on VROC, we were at spa. Some [insert insult here] guy hit me from behind on eau rouge and I spun off, along with other cars trying to avoid the incident. After that I was something like 7th or 8th, and the guy in front of me was just a little bit slower than I was, so I thought hey, what the hell, I can pass this guy. I then had one of the most satisfying races I've ever had. This guy was protecting his line as hard as he could, without chopping me. It was incredible, being that close to a car while braking, I held my breath a lot of times, thinking "oh no, this time I'm entering too fast, we're gonna touch!" but we never actually did (well, we did once, but only a minor spinout and I waited for him to get by me so we could continue the fight!). I finished 7th (couldn't pass him!) but I never felt that much satisfaction. I felt good about being able to compose myself and not get us both off track. I thought "hey, I'm maturing!"... A Renault

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> >Just my humble opinion... > And I agree wholeheartedly! > I've been in a race on VROC, we were at spa. Some [insert insult > here] guy hit me from behind on eau rouge and I spun off, along with > other cars trying to avoid the incident. > After that I was something like 7th or 8th, and the guy in front of me > was just a little bit slower than I was, so I thought hey, what the > hell, I can pass this guy. I then had one of the most satisfying > races I've ever had. This guy was protecting his line as hard as he > could, without chopping me. It was incredible, being that close to a > car while braking, I held my breath a lot of times, thinking "oh no, > this time I'm entering too fast, we're gonna touch!" but we never > actually did (well, we did once, but only a minor spinout and I waited > for him to get by me so we could continue the fight!). > I finished 7th (couldn't pass him!) but I never felt that much > satisfaction. I felt good about being able to compose myself and not > get us both off track. I thought "hey, I'm maturing!"... > A Renault

This type of online racing has also produced the best racing I have had at VROC. While most of the time a faster,or should I say late braker, will just run into the back of my Ferrari when I brake. I never cut across the track to block,but rather hold my line,or they blow by me on the inside braking way too late. I always get a chuckle as they run right off the track. But every so often,you hook up with a really good driver that will stay behind you while he tries to find a clean and SAFE way around. This happened just last night at Zandvoort. We had a great race after the usual 1st lap crash that takes out half the field. We never challenged for the led,but went at it for 11 laps till I had a case of brain fade. Joel Willstein

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>I'm finding trail braking very hard, but think that I will need to >master it to get much faster. I've watched some of the faster guys like >Ian Parker and Rick Prydden in practice sessions and they seem to brake >very much later than I do. If I try to brake when they do, I just >overshoot the corner. Any tips, please? >Cheers, >Paul

Try braking hard but keeping the wheels from locking until the point when you want to turn, then put the car into a sliding drift. You come on the gas when you can, meaning the car's under control, and you are lined up for the exit. Exiting a corner fast is preferable to going into a corner fast. First off, you need separate axis pedals, so your brake is separate from your gas. Don't even try to brake hard until your tires are warm 1-2 laps. Find a marker for your start to brake point on each corner. Straight line brake all the way deep into the corner, but throw the car into your slide while still braking, then on the gas and power slide through the rest of the corner. You don't want any time when you're on neither the gas or brake, at least in most corners, there's some corners you'll have to hold your speed a bit through a long corner. Roll bars are critical. Too much rear, you lose the rear end easy, too much front, your front end wants to turn too much. I like to set the bars with enough rear that I can slide easily, but not so much that I can't control it. You really have to learn to slide the car in 4 wheel power drifts to drive fast. You want the bars tight enough to keep the car controllable, but soft enough to give you more traction. Bars influence your braking alot. I run 100/70 on fast tracks, and 80/60 on slower tracks. (front/rear) Gearing down is critical when braking. First off, don't shift until you're halfway through braking, then come down in gears quick, while modulating your brake with the gears to finish off your braking. Shift down too soon, and your rear gets loose, too late you lose the braking power of the gears. Finding the right combo is critical. You must have sensitive enough brake pedal to be able to ride your brakes hard, but on the edge. I find a quick shot of gas alot of time can be used to correct problems under braking. To sum up: memorize each corner on each track, put brake bias to the rear (52%), and concentrate on braking to setup your car for exiting the corner fast.

Nice comments, Norton. Just one point of clarification... Increased anti-roll bar settings induce oversteer at the rear and understeer at the front, so while too much rear bar will cause you to lose the rear too easily, too much front bar will make the front end want to turn too *little*, i.e. understeer.

Is there any way to convert a Thrustmaster T1 to do that? I'd ask about my TM Grand Prix also, but making the paddles separate would probably be even harder.... -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:58:52 -0700 Kirk Lane <[email hidden]> wrote: % Is there any way to convert a Thrustmaster T1 to do that? I'd ask about my % TM Grand Prix also, but making the paddles separate would probably be even % harder.... % >First off, you need separate axis pedals, so your brake is % >separate from your gas. The following is from an old post here in r.a.s. The T1 should be wired very similar to the T2. From: [email hidden] (LavaBoy) Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators Subject: Re: Seperate axis on a T2? (long) Date: 7 Oct 1998 20:48:44 GMT In article <tMFS1.23486$[email hidden]>, <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:37:51 -0500 Scott Moore <[email hidden]> wrote: >% After lots of practice with GPL, I think a seperate brake and throttle = >% axis would be a great help. Does anyone know of a way to accomplish this = >% with a T2? I'd certainly like a NASCAR Pro, but my money is going to = >% system upgrades(16 FPS in traffic ain't cutting it :-) ). Any help on = >% this issue is appreciated. >I have heard (haven't verified it) that the T2 doesn't have the >necessary wires in its cable. So you will need to get new cabling and >connectors to pull this off. But check out Lew's Wheels for a great >schematic <http://www.monmouth.com/~lw4750/electric.htm>

That is partly true, you end up having to add 1 wire that runs from your pedals to the joystick jack along the pedals joystick chord. I just dug into the connector to find what color wire at right pin, then spliced into it earlier in the cable. Not too terribly hard a project if you are familiar with soldering, I did it to my old style T2 (which uses the adaptor in Win95), thanks to the terrific info provided by another newsgroup reader to me when I asked this same question here sometime last year. Below is the e-mail he sent back to me which I used with great results, your mileage may vary. Big thanks to Grant Reeve again for providing me with the details on how to do this. I hope he doesn't mind me posting the info here for all to benefit, I tried to verify by mail but never reached him. I snipped the e-mail addresses to protect the innocent from SPAMBOTS. This is especially useful with GPL, and really improved my ability to trail brake! Hope this helps other T2 owners out there who are not too afraid to try this, but please do this at your own risk, we take no responsibility if this doesn't work for you and you end up messing up your wheel. My T2 was pretty old anyhow. <insert standard disclaimer> --John ---Cut here---- Email Message From: Grant Reeve Hi John :) At 14:25 16/04/98 -0700, you wrote: >I posted a response on the r.a.s. newsgroup but also sending you e-mail >in case you don't see it. Posting there would probably help people in >the future if they look up this info on Dejanews, but if you would like >to e-mail me the info instead that is fine also. I haven't looked at r.a.s yet today so i guess i haven't had a chance to see your message there as yet. I'll reply in email anyway. >I have a T2 with the old style (I have to use the adaptor) Joystick2 >pedal axis. same here, but all the difference really is is that pins 6 and 11 are swapped by the adapter, while the newer T2's have pins 6 and 11 wired the right way around in the first place. >I'm wondering how difficult it was just to split the pedal axis? as long as you're OK with soldering stuff it should be fine. Also it helps to have a multimeter or something to check which wires are connected to what and stuff. >Did you need to run any new wires into the pedals or just rewire the existing? >I have replaced both pedal pots in the past and my guess would be that instead >of the two pots being wired in series as they are by default you would >just wire them independent +5v to each pot? I run an extra wire from the pedals to the plug since there's no spare wires in the cable. You can use the same +5v. you split the wire connecting them in series to another joystick axis, and attach a second +5v to the other pot which didn't have a +5v wire. >Please pass on the details to the splitting process, I think splitting the >two pots would eliminate much of the jumpiness I see in my pedal axis. You'll probably find the jumpiness is still there. I do. ok, after this is a rather large set of details on what i did, whcih i wrote the other night to someone else but it's easier to just cut and paste because it applies in general:) He made a comment that my second ascii wiring diagrams should be labled "Friendly Pedal Guy" and "Friendly Pedal Guy with Strange Hat" :) --------------------- What I have done is used a double pole double positon switch to allow me to switch between both pedals on one axis (the normal one), and the pedals on two seperate axiis. It works very well. I've got one of the older T2's that requires an adapter, so the two normal axiis it uses are Joystick 1 axis 1 for steering, and Joystick 2 axis 1 for pedals. The adapter simply passes through all the pins, while swapping Joystick 2 axis 1 with Joystick 1 axis 2. So with all the wiring i did, i've used both pedals on J2-A1 (Joystick 2 axis 1 - will save me typing!), and when split, the gas on J2-A1 and brake on J1-A2, knowing that the adapter swaps them over. If you have a newer T2 you'll be wanting to swap all wiring to the right pins from the start. I see you're referring to axis 0 instead of axis 1 like i am:) so when i say axis 1 i guess i'm meaning your axis 0. The switch i made, when it has the two pedals on one axis, also connects the +5v pin directly over to J1-A2 so that there is some kind of reading on this third axis, which means i can flick the switch and recalibrate, just like that, voiding any need to fiddle around with removing the 3 axis joystick from the Win95 control panel and adding a 2 axis one and back again all the time. I am not entirely sure if it's healthy to connect the +5V directly to a joystick axis like that - but this is the equivalent of no resistance, so i would expect it to be fine. Maybe we should wire a 36 KOhm resister instead of just a direct +5V connect. You will have to hack'n'slash into the plug at the computer end of the T2 cable, it's molded plastic that has probably melted slightly and fused with the black outer casing of the two cables going into the plug. But that's the only part that's fused so I was able to cut open the molded casing of the plug relatively cleanly at that end to cut it away from the cables, then i was able to slide it off revealing the gory horror of the innards of the plug. Gory, because they've encased all the wiring and stuff in a soft plastic, which makes it bloody painful to get access to wires and things! More on this later in the email. I've cut a nice little notch in the side of my pedal base about 5cm from the cable out, where i will mount the switch properly, but I don't have small enough screws for the switch as yet so i just have the switch dangling loose. OK I suppose you're wondering where all the wiring diagrams are and stufF:) well, i've been writing all the other bits first because i was being lazy. I based all this on some info i found at some guy's web page, i think it might have been called "wally's world of sims" or something, but i ended up using my own wiring and stuff, because he had a lot of unneccesary crap, and felt like improving it to suit myself. First i'll give a pin-out of the joystick port, for your usual soundcard: Pin | Description 1 +5 V 2 Joystick 1 Button 1 3 Joystick 1 Axis 1 4 common ground for buttons 5 common ground for buttons 6 Joystick 1 Axis 2 7 Joystick 1 Button 2 8 +5 V 9 +5 V 10 Joystick 2 Button 1 11 Joystick 2 Axis 1 12 MIDI TXD 13 Joystick 2 Axis 2 14 Joystick 2 Button 2 15 MIDI RXD Naturally we're ignoring the MIDI pins. If you're T2 is a newer one without the adapter, please swap all my references to pins 11 and 6. OK, here is a really corny ascii diagram of how the wiring currently is configured in your T2 pedal base. I hope you've got a fixed-width font in your email program:) btw - all references to pin 8 here actually only mean "+5V". Since there's 3 +5V pins it could really be any one of them, it doesn't matter. ______________ / \ | ___ | ___ X-/ \ X-/ \ gas | G | | B | brake X-\___/ X-\___/ | | | \_ | \ / | / |8 / | / ----------------|-- | 1 \ o o o o o o o X / 8 | 9 \ o o X o o o o / 15 | -----|--------- | | \__________/11 And now here's the wiring with the double position double pole switch wired in. When the switch is in the Left position, the axiis will be on one axis going to pin 11, with a fixed resistance going to pin 6. When the switch is in the Right position, the axiis are split, gas on pin 11, brake on pin 6. If you trace all the wiring you should understand how the wiring is all done. Let me know if it's confusing or the diagram is a mess or something. The wires don't actually connect where they are crossing over each other, btw. /--------------\ | _______|___________ | / | \ | /-|-------|-\ /+\ | | X X X | | | 36 KOhm resistor or thereabouts | | \ | \+/ \------X X \ X-----------/ \-|---|-|-|-/ switch | | | | \___|_|_|__ _______/ | | \ / | | | | ___ | | | ___ X-/ \ | | X-/ \ gas | G | | | | B | brake X-\___/ | \--X-\___/ | | | | | \_ | | \ / | | / \__6 |8 / \ | / ------------|---|-- | 1 \ o o o o o X o X / 8 | 9 \ o o X o o o o / 15 | -----|--------- | | \__________/11 The ... read more »

> While most of the time a faster,or should I say late > braker, will just run into the back of my Ferrari when I brake. (Gee, I resemble that ;) Running against the AI has its good and bad points. One of the bad ones is that I now know pretty much the few ;) places where the AI is slower than me through the corners. Not having run much online yet, I still tend to be surprised at where humans are tentative. Others often seem cautious where I am (overly ;) brave... - Matt