N3 OK, cars take air, but do they flip?

Just watched the video and could clearly see a car up on two wheels. The big question is will they roll like Jarrett did at Daytona? Can we crash like Casey Atwood, end over end, leaving nothing but a smashed pile of junk on the grass? Also, will the AI cars wreck each other and not just take a notion to spin into the wall every so often? Hope the answer is yes. ____________ Uthulian

There are always going to be two sides to this story... Fact of life, in motor-racing, mistakes are made, accidents happen. As much as YOU want to see the ultimate racing simulator, I want to see the ultimate *reality* racing simulator... Thankfully due to Papy's new engine, both are available.... Now you think me a wrecker or crash-hunter? I'm far from it, I just like to know that if I make a mistake, the result would mirror exactly what I would expect. They key is immersion. In GPL on several occasions I have become very miffed, because I've hit the wall (with realistic damage), winced, to find that my car has magically bounced off the wall without a hint of it hurting the suspension... I have posted on this. As well as this, there is always the subconcious knowledge that however much adrenaline flows, or palms sweat, you are in no physical danger whatsoever.... so live out a few awesome crashes, why not? You telling me you have never done anything like rear-end a car hard, or drive around the wrong way?? As I said earlier, it really doesn't matter anyway... flips, rolls, complete 360's or whatever, will be the by-product of implementing a physics code which literally means "anything goes", anything that would happen in real-life, will happen in the sim, as close to reality as ever seen before..... so Papy won't be wasting any time adding in "canned" crash effects, that could be spent in the physics/drivability of the sim...... And back to the question in the original post... it seems from GPL that the AI will get into each other and cause melee's as I have seen this quite a few times just as they all pile into Eau Rouge at Spa on the first lap. There should be no problems with re-creating the inevitable 1st lap Texas wreck then. Haha!! Only real complaint I have about the AI in GPL is that they still perform miracles to get back on the track having been punted miles off at Silverstone or the first part of Rouen. -:http://www.simproject.com/ccg/

From what I've seen in a couple of screenshots, the answer is yes, they will flip. Dwayne

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> Just watched the video and could clearly see a car up on two wheels. > The big question is will they roll like Jarrett did at Daytona? Can > we crash like Casey Atwood, end over end, leaving nothing but a > smashed pile of junk on the grass? Also, will the AI cars wreck each > other and not just take a notion to spin into the wall every so often? > Hope the answer is yes. > ____________ > Uthulian

I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win. NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT FLIPPING.

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>Just watched the video and could clearly see a car up on two wheels. >The big question is will they roll like Jarrett did at Daytona? Can >we crash like Casey Atwood, end over end, leaving nothing but a >smashed pile of junk on the grass? Also, will the AI cars wreck each >other and not just take a notion to spin into the wall every so often? >Hope the answer is yes. >____________ >Uthulian

Preach on Brother Dean!! :-) You speak the truth. --Dave

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> I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I > don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win. > NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right > up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on > what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT > FLIPPING. > >Just watched the video and could clearly see a car up on two wheels. > >The big question is will they roll like Jarrett did at Daytona? Can > >we crash like Casey Atwood, end over end, leaving nothing but a > >smashed pile of junk on the grass? Also, will the AI cars wreck each > >other and not just take a notion to spin into the wall every so often? > >Hope the answer is yes. > >____________ > >Uthulian

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Hey , racing is what I like the most in a game too! But I also like my games to be as realistic as possible. And if my car flip's in a wreck then so be it. I love that you pay the price for your mistakes in a game. It is part of what keeps you honest. >I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I >don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win.

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>NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right >up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on >what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT >FLIPPING. >>Just watched the video and could clearly see a car up on two wheels. >>The big question is will they roll like Jarrett did at Daytona? Can >>we crash like Casey Atwood, end over end, leaving nothing but a >>smashed pile of junk on the grass? Also, will the AI cars wreck each >>other and not just take a notion to spin into the wall every so often? >>Hope the answer is yes. >>____________ >>Uthulian

>I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I >don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win. >NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right >up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on >what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT >FLIPPING. Of course Im also saying the same thing when on the NROS people ask me "do they flip". I feel ashamed because it shows the crashing mentality of people watching the real sport (whey they only cheer for the wrecks). The thing is.. The flipping is a direct result of the new 3d game engine found in Papyrus. If somebody ask you about the flips, just tell him that with the true 3d physics anything is possible, from getting a wheel off the ground when you get off the curbing in the Esses at the Glen to catching the air at Talladega after a little bumpdraft. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Ahem... Dean, are you saying that a force feedback wheel would be bad for virtual racing experience? In that case I have to disagree. ViperRacing, NFS III and PowerSlide all use FF in a way that makes them all so much more to drive. Simply, an extra dimension, so much needed in this fake simulation/*** environment. And as for cars flipping in N3, all I have to say is... If the real cars do it (because of the laws of physics I guess :-) then dammit, I want the N3 cars to do it too. I'm sure Papy is doing a bang-up job on the physics engine for N3 and I don't want them to "concentrate" on removing things that some people don't think should be there. Smack it all in there and see what happens to the models! You want them to remove sliding/spinning too because it distracts you from your objective to "run a race and win"? /petern

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> I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I > don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win. > NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right > up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on > what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT > FLIPPING. > >Just watched the video and could clearly see a car up on two wheels. > >The big question is will they roll like Jarrett did at Daytona? Can > >we crash like Casey Atwood, end over end, leaving nothing but a > >smashed pile of junk on the grass? Also, will the AI cars wreck each > >other and not just take a notion to spin into the wall every so often? > >Hope the answer is yes. > >____________ > >Uthulian

> I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I > don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win. > NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right > up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on Then you didn't try ViperRacing with an FF wheel. Immersion factor is trippled, the car fights you and you know when the grip is gone. It's a gimmick in NFS3, but a usefull addition in ViperRacing. Hopefully not the last one... If I crash my Ferrari into a guard rail (sp?) at the Glen, I want to happen what SHOULD happen... fly, baby, fly! l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Did you even watch the race on sunday? Wrecking (and rubbing) is as much a part of NASCAR racing as bump drafting and pitting. Actually, I could live without the flipping, but I'm sick of watching cars break away for no reason at all and slam into the wall. Spice up the AI and give some of the cars a #23 mentality and others a #3 mentality. Let's see the #2 force the #24 down onto the apron as it's trying to make a pass. Make them fight for position rather than sheepishly back away in the corners and I'll be happy. ____________ Uthulian

I like running a clean race as much as the next man; in fact, I enjoy the challenge of doing so. But if there isn't the possibility of wrecking (and possibly flipping) then finishing the race with a pristine paint job doesn't mean much. Having the cars show damage and not running as fast due to the compromised aerodynamics is one of the things I like about Papyrus' racing simulations ("simulation" being the operative word). It gives you a very good reason to be a good driver: you won't win if you don't . It doesn't take much skill in N2 or NR1999 to turn off damage and smash your way to the front. Anyway, N3 is supposed to be based on the GPL physics engine, and I know from experience that you can flip those cars! I came off a turn a little wide at Watkins Glen, bounced off the guard rail, bounced into the air, with 2 tires skidding (and leaving smoke trails [very cool!]) as I came down, slid off the track, bounced around on the trackside hay bales, and went end over end. It was cool to ride in real time, as well as watch on the replay. It made me feel all the more proud of myself when I took the turn sucessfully the next time around! >I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I >don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win. >NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right >up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on >what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT >FLIPPING.

I dont cheer for wrecks, but I am sorry, i do enjoy seeing them.....I dont always enjoy the end result, or the risk of injury. I hated the fact that mark Martin and DJ had to start their season with the big wreck and towards the rear of the point battle this early...........BUT, can you blame anyone when the host of most of the Nascar shows and other race shows replays of all the wrecks and refer to them as "Beauties"??? Quoting that from "Inside Winston Cup Racing" on speed vision, host by Alan Bestwick and 3 driver panel........yes we love watching the wrecks, but we hate the consequences. Sorry, but most men I know have grown up with a small destructive side and enjoy things like that. With that being said, I dont sit in my room watching a 3-4 hour race hoping for wrecks and waiting for them, I enjoy racing, the consistency it takes to be a Cup racer, the on track battles and fierce competetion....the carnage is just an added bonus most weeks. I dont plan on jumping into a multiplayer race and trying to hit someone at dega just right to see them flip, but you better beleive, the first thing outa the box will be trying to pull a Rusty at Dega...then using my best Beavis voice going "Huh huh, that was cool" I am sorry, but my life isnt totally about reality, and simulating....... Can we expect any comments about the First episode of Star Wars not being realistic from you???? We all need escapes from the grim things in our lives, and mos men I know need things to take our aggression out on.....I get no thrill from an unrealistic game plowing into a group of cars, but when the realism is there, and I go and do something TOTALLY unacceptable in real life, like driving backwards headon into someone goin 200 mph....I kinda get a kick out of it.......there is room in my life for BOTH clean hard racing, and total uninhibited FUN..........and tell you the truth, I feel sorry for anyone that is so anal, they dont have that kinda room in there life. JT

>>Of course Im also saying the same thing when on the NROS people ask me "do >>they flip". I feel ashamed because it shows the crashing mentality of >>people watching the real sport (whey they only cheer for the wrecks). argh first of all I forgot to add "some" between -of people- . I didn't said that racing fans enjoy the wrecks, argh oops my error ;-) Of course wrecks are spectacular. Of course they are incredible to watch because of some of their intensity and high risk. But I will rather watch cars racing than wrecking ;) LOL you just resumed the mentality of 90% of the NROS driers ;-) They are called degaheads. People who only race at Talladega, and enjoy when they wreck or get wrecked. I can't imagine with N3 with true 3d physics how many people will have fun to wreck. But I will admit, it's always fun to punt Jim Clark at Monza ;) Star Wars is not real ? <insert Luke quote> Noooooooooooo that's not true, that's impossible ! </insert Luke quote> ;-) But I see your point about people enjoying it as "evading" their normal life. The same as people watching the "World's scariest car chases" on FOX. Pure Entertainment wrecks are. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Well, first off, I am NO DEGA HEAD by any means. I love watching Plate races for the close racing, and yes the big wreck.......although I thoroughly enjoyed the caution free race at Tally a few years back...but as for racing them...not my thing.....my point was, Tally will prob be the best place for flippage and spectacular crashed offline. When I race online, I hate wrecking, and I hate punting......although offline I only WISH i could catch jim Clark....or that the AI wasnt smart enuff to miss me try to punt him when he laps me 8~) ROFLMAO....what should I have expected Well, I in no way wanted to defend our condone the actions taken online in dega races......but you made me feel the need to justify my jumping up and exciting yell of "Holy SSSSSS" whenever a multi car pileup happens....or (scuse me Gordon Fans) the time I woke up hlf the hotel screaming "Hell YEAH!!!" when Rusty punted Jeff last year at Richmond.(Well, maybe I do have a little of that TEN mentality (~8 ) Anyway....I see your point, and I believe you saw mine as well.....cant wait for N3 to include something for ALL of us sim fans.......unlike the self proclaimed new King as some call it. I HAVE to buy it tommorow to see if its as horrible as they say. JT

Okay, I have to admit on the Force Feedback issue, I haven't had enough experience with one (only what I saw and tried on display at computer stores). So my opinion didn't carry much weight, and I will hold my opinion until I can back my comments. Most of you made comments about NFS and Viper etc with the Force Feedback wheel, which in my opinion aren't sims, there arcade games and don't seem as much fun anymore after playing GPL. As for the flipping, you have all made valid points about the "Realism" of the sim and yes... in real life the cars flip. My point was I hope that Papyrus doesn't take away from the performance or the "feel" of really racing to include flipping. Thanks for humbling me. Dean >I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I >don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win.

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>NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right >up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on >what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT >FLIPPING. >>Just watched the video and could clearly see a car up on two wheels. >>The big question is will they roll like Jarrett did at Daytona? Can >>we crash like Casey Atwood, end over end, leaving nothing but a >>smashed pile of junk on the grass? Also, will the AI cars wreck each >>other and not just take a notion to spin into the wall every so often? >>Hope the answer is yes. >>____________ >>Uthulian

The fact of flipping Winston Cup cars make it a part of the "simulation". As I stated in another thread, I do not want the game to be some kind of demolition derby but look at GPL. Cars flip in that sim and it is considered so much of a sim that a lot of reviews criticize it because its not really a "game". THAT IS WHAT US SIM DRIVERS (and I'm not even a good one at that) ARE LOOKING FOR. The great thing about GPL is that I can roll my ride and depending on speed, impact, and what I hit, the car may be driveable back to pit road (if there were pit crews to do repairs). Flipping has to be in but within the framework of the physics engine to duplicate reality. The roof flaps help a lot, but not 100%. Andrew B.

about the GPL cars getting back to the track quickly, I recently changed the AI braking power to where it was pretty weak so everyone went off at parabolica at monza, well they drove on the gravel just like it was asphalt. Where they seemed they may spin off, they just kept driving like the track was just wider. Never slowed them down. Jesse >>I can't believe that there are still people how want the cars to flip. I >>don't know about the rest of you, but my objective is to run a race and win. >>NOT to see myself flip and to flip other cars. I rank flipping cars right >>up there with force feedback wheels. I would rather Papyrus concentrate on

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>>what they do best, creating the ultimate simulator for racing... NOT >>FLIPPING. >There are always going to be two sides to this story... Fact of life, >in motor-racing, mistakes are made, accidents happen. As much as YOU >want to see the ultimate racing simulator, I want to see the ultimate >*reality* racing simulator... Thankfully due to Papy's new engine, >both are available.... Now you think me a wrecker or crash-hunter? >I'm far from it, I just like to know that if I make a mistake, the >result would mirror exactly what I would expect. They key is >immersion. In GPL on several occasions I have become very miffed, >because I've hit the wall (with realistic damage), winced, to find >that my car has magically bounced off the wall without a hint of it >hurting the suspension... I have posted on this. As well as this, >there is always the subconcious knowledge that however much adrenaline >flows, or palms sweat, you are in no physical danger whatsoever.... so >live out a few awesome crashes, why not? You telling me you have never >done anything like rear-end a car hard, or drive around the wrong >way?? >As I said earlier, it really doesn't matter anyway... flips, rolls, >complete 360's or whatever, will be the by-product of implementing a >physics code which literally means "anything goes", anything that >would happen in real-life, will happen in the sim, as close to reality >as ever seen before..... so Papy won't be wasting any time adding in >"canned" crash effects, that could be spent in the physics/drivability >of the sim...... >And back to the question in the original post... it seems from GPL >that the AI will get into each other and cause melee's as I have seen >this quite a few times just as they all pile into Eau Rouge at Spa on >the first lap. There should be no problems with re-creating the >inevitable 1st lap Texas wreck then. Haha!! Only real complaint I have >about the AI in GPL is that they still perform miracles to get back on >the track having been punted miles off at Silverstone or the first >part of Rouen. >Jon.Guest >-:http://www.simproject.com/ccg/