Racing Wheel Experience

I have been looking at wheels for a number of weeks. I wanted to replace my TM GP1 for use with: F1RS, GPL, NASCAR 1999, and various other driving sims. The most import was GPL. I have been very happy with the GP1, however the signal are no longer stable with the throttle (I ordered replacement parts from the TM web site). I looked primarily at 3 wheels: MS FF, Logitech FF, and the TM GT Force. Logitech FF = I wanted to buy this wheel, however after looking at the peddles at Best Buy I was turned off. Everything else about this wheel is great. The buttons and butterfly shifters are perfectly placed. What a shame the peddles are poorly designed. I would assume that if you mostly play NASCAR, the peddles may be OK since not as much emphasis is placed on the peddles. TM GT Force = I bought a TM GT Force wheel about a week ago. I read that an updated version of this wheel has recently been produced The wheel I bought was not one of these. The TM wheel had excellent fit and finish. The buttons, butterflies, and peddles were very good. The problem with this wheel was that it did not function. When I first turned the wheel on, crazy noises came from the unit. After 20-30 minutes of playing around, I was satisfied that it was not going to work. I attempted to call tech support, however I was not in the mood to wait on hold for more than 15 minutes. The wheel went back to the store. MS FF = After the TM wheel, I bought the MS unit. Overall I am happy with the wheel. I have used the wheel successfully with GPL, NASCAR 1999, F1RS, Monster Truck 2, and MS Cart Racing. Compared to my old GP1, the MS wheel takes a while to get used to using. There are a lot of calibration/software adjustments I have not played with to really dial it in. The steering is very precise and consistent. You can certainly feel the FF mechanical internals, however they have a solid, acceptable feel about them. I have a few complaints about the wheel. It would be nice to be a USB unit, however it is OK since I have a USB joystick. The button placement is only OK. Neither the buttons on the front or levers on the back are ideally positioned for constant shifting as in GPL. The quick back-and-forth steering on some GPL and F1RS circuits is not as good as with my non-FF GP1 wheel. When I play F1RS, the sound is messed-up if the FF is on. If anyone knows how to fix this please let me know. After playing some games with and without FF, I am not convinced that FF really adds that much to the racing experience. There is such an abrupt off/on when you go from the perfectly smooth track to a curb or on the grass. Maybe if the track had a little rubble feel all the time, it would feel more real. Looking back, maybe I should have bought a good non-FF wheel. Billybob

I just bought the Logitech FF, and am still testing it out. I sort of agree that the pedals are not that great - too little travel and feel more like on/off instead of like the real pedals in a car. BUT, after the spring fiasco with my TM NASCAR Pro (all the springs broke over a MONTH ago, just got the new springs last week, and guess what - 2 springs are THE WRONG ONES!!!), I have to admit the Logitech pedals at least are a step in the right direction. The Logitech, otherwise, feels like a nice sturdy wheel, but in playing TOCA2, GPL, F1RS, Colin McRae (VERY WEAK FF!!!), and Viper Racing, I just don't feel as good about it as I would have thought. The steering just don't feel as precise or realistic as when I really do SCCA Racing in my real car. But as I have not had it more than 1 day, I need to experiment with it more. Now, though I AM pissed at TM (above), their FF wheel does look interesting. What are they supposedly doing to the newer wheel that is different than what is sold now? And will it hold up to a lot of FF usage? Judging that the pedals look the same as my NASCAR Pro, I am afraid to get this one. But again it looked interesting. Now, while at CompUSA looking for the Logitech Wheel (didn't stock it???), I saw Interact has a new FF wheel called the V4 Force. It has METAL paddles, a ton of buttons & hat, tiltable steering wheel (2 tilt adjustments), and even when not in FF mode IS self centering (good for NON-FF games). But sadly it is a DB15 connection, no USB. I wonder if anyone has tried this one? The pedals look ok too. The MS FF Wheel has me in a quandary. I have heard some love it, and others hate it. Also I have read reviews that say it has a very poor center feel. Anyone care to comment on that? Is it software fixable? Is it self centering in NON-FF games or is it a limp XXXX? And how are the pedals on it??? And is the steering input vague, or nice and precise???? And lastly, I have heard one of the great things about the Logitech over the MS (and Saitech as it uses the same system) is that the Logitech uses cables and whatever, while the MS is gears, and so is more sturdy. Any comments on the difference between the two systems??? I just want a wheel with feel (cause that is the input I NEED when I really race), yet also some resistance, and a good precise feel. (IF ONLY the pedals on the Logitech were better . . . . . ) calibration/software

Regarding the MS FF wheel: I previously had a GP1 wheel and bought the MS FF about a month ago. I use it in GPL, Viper, NR99 and Monster Truck Madness 2 (and soon to be used with my old GP2). I don't know where you read about the centering on this wheel but I find the centering to be superb, no dead band whatsoever and to be one it's strong points. The strength of the electronic spring for centering is adjustable and does work in non-FF games such as GPL, NR99 and GP2. This is a much better unit than the GP1 but it did take some getting used to going from wheel mounted throttle and brake to pedals. The pedals are the main reason I bought this unit. I did the research and read the reviews on the other wheels such as the V4, Logitech, Act Labs, Thrustmaster, and others. I went to the stores, looked at the units and queried the sales people on customer comments. They all fell short for various reasons. The Logitech in particular is being blasted for its poor pedal design with it's extremely short throw. One poster here said that it's impossible to be competitive in GPL. The Thrustmaster looked interesting but again I read too many posts from those who returned it for various reasons. One major benefit is the digital design of the unit. The calibration drifting and jumping around that I experienced with the GP1 is now completely stable. This includes the infamous arm jittering in GPL. If you read the extremely long thread here on this issue awhile ago then you know that the only solution is to go with a digital wheel or digital input at the computer (such as a dedicated digital game port). If you've got the $$$ then go with a wheel from TSW or ECC and get a digital game port. This could set you back about $350 minimum though. For the under $200 category, the MS FF is a great choice and there is not much to complain about. One thing, is the lightness of the pedal base. It has a tendency to slide a little on low pile carpet. Doug

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>I just bought the Logitech FF, and am still testing it out. I sort of agree >that the pedals are not that great - too little travel and feel more like >on/off instead of like the real pedals in a car. BUT, after the spring >fiasco with my TM NASCAR Pro (all the springs broke over a MONTH ago, just >got the new springs last week, and guess what - 2 springs are THE WRONG >ONES!!!), I have to admit the Logitech pedals at least are a step in the >right direction. The Logitech, otherwise, feels like a nice sturdy wheel, >but in playing TOCA2, GPL, F1RS, Colin McRae (VERY WEAK FF!!!), and Viper >Racing, I just don't feel as good about it as I would have thought. The >steering just don't feel as precise or realistic as when I really do SCCA >Racing in my real car. But as I have not had it more than 1 day, I need to >experiment with it more. >Now, though I AM pissed at TM (above), their FF wheel does look

interesting. >What are they supposedly doing to the newer wheel that is different than >what is sold now? And will it hold up to a lot of FF usage? Judging that the >pedals look the same as my NASCAR Pro, I am afraid to get this one. But >again it looked interesting. >Now, while at CompUSA looking for the Logitech Wheel (didn't stock it???), I >saw Interact has a new FF wheel called the V4 Force. It has METAL paddles, a >ton of buttons & hat, tiltable steering wheel (2 tilt adjustments), and even

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>when not in FF mode IS self centering (good for NON-FF games). But sadly it >is a DB15 connection, no USB. I wonder if anyone has tried this one? The >pedals look ok too. >The MS FF Wheel has me in a quandary. I have heard some love it, and others >hate it. Also I have read reviews that say it has a very poor center feel. >Anyone care to comment on that? Is it software fixable? Is it self

centering >in NON-FF games or is it a limp XXXX? And how are the pedals on it??? And is >the steering input vague, or nice and precise???? >And lastly, I have heard one of the great things about the Logitech over the >MS (and Saitech as it uses the same system) is that the Logitech uses cables

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>and whatever, while the MS is gears, and so is more sturdy. Any comments on >the difference between the two systems??? I just want a wheel with feel >(cause that is the input I NEED when I really race), yet also some >resistance, and a good precise feel. >(IF ONLY the pedals on the Logitech were better . . . . . ) >> I have been looking at wheels for a number of weeks. I wanted to replace >my >> TM GP1 for use with: F1RS, GPL, NASCAR 1999, and various other driving >sims. >> The most import was GPL. I have been very happy with the GP1, however the >> signal are no longer stable with the throttle (I ordered replacement

parts

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>> from the TM web site). >> I looked primarily at 3 wheels: MS FF, Logitech FF, and the TM GT Force. >> Logitech FF = I wanted to buy this wheel, however after looking at the >> peddles at Best Buy I was turned off. Everything else about this wheel is >> great. The buttons and butterfly shifters are perfectly placed. What a >shame >> the peddles are poorly designed. I would assume that if you mostly play >> NASCAR, the peddles may be OK since not as much emphasis is placed on the >> peddles. >> TM GT Force = I bought a TM GT Force wheel about a week ago. I read that >an >> updated version of this wheel has recently been produced The wheel I >bought >> was not one of these. The TM wheel had excellent fit and finish. The >> buttons, butterflies, and peddles were very good. The problem with this >> wheel was that it did not function. When I first turned the wheel on, >crazy >> noises came from the unit. After 20-30 minutes of playing around, I was >> satisfied that it was not going to work. I attempted to call tech

support, >> however I was not in the mood to wait on hold for more than 15 minutes. >The >> wheel went back to the store. >> MS FF = After the TM wheel, I bought the MS unit. Overall I am happy with >> the wheel. I have used the wheel successfully with GPL, NASCAR 1999, F1RS, >> Monster Truck 2, and MS Cart Racing. Compared to my old GP1, the MS wheel >> takes a while to get used to using. There are a lot of >calibration/software >> adjustments I have not played with to really dial it in. The steering is >> very precise and consistent. You can certainly feel the FF mechanical >> internals, however they have a solid, acceptable feel about them. I have a >> few complaints about the wheel. It would be nice to be a USB unit, however >> it is OK since I have a USB joystick. The button placement is only OK. >> Neither the buttons on the front or levers on the back are ideally >> positioned for constant shifting as in GPL. The quick back-and-forth >> steering on some GPL and F1RS circuits is not as good as with my non-FF >GP1 >> wheel. When I play F1RS, the sound is messed-up if the FF is on. If anyone

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>> knows how to fix this please let me know. >> After playing some games with and without FF, I am not convinced that FF >> really adds that much to the racing experience. There is such an abrupt >> off/on when you go from the perfectly smooth track to a curb or on the >> grass. Maybe if the track had a little rubble feel all the time, it would >> feel more real. Looking back, maybe I should have bought a good non-FF >> wheel. >> Billybob

<snip> % Now, though I AM pissed at TM (above), their FF wheel does look interesting. % What are they supposedly doing to the newer wheel that is different than % what is sold now? And will it hold up to a lot of FF usage? Judging that the % pedals look the same as my NASCAR Pro, I am afraid to get this one. But % again it looked interesting. <snip> Although I haven't heard the "official" report, it appears that the initial release of the TM Force wheels where not manufactured to "spec". This caused them to not function properly. It would seem that whom ever oversaw the production in their offshore plant assumed they knew more about the design than the designers. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Did you get the latest driver release on http://www.wingmanteam.com? Things should improve as far as forces go... ..tom

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>On Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:59:58 -0800, >>And lastly, I have heard one of the great things about the Logitech over the >>MS (and Saitech as it uses the same system) is that the Logitech uses cables >>and whatever, while the MS is gears, and so is more sturdy. Any comments on >>the difference between the two systems??? I just want a wheel with feel >>(cause that is the input I NEED when I really race), yet also some >>resistance, and a good precise feel.

My Saitek R4 Force wheel works very nicely, and the pedals seem to be much better than the MS pedals. The Saitek wheel may be THE bargain FF wheel right now -- Saitek has a limited quantity of refurbished R4 Force wheels available direct from their Website for only $99.00. Check it out for yourself at: http://st4.yahoo.com/saitekusa/saitr4forwhe.html For those who might be a bit afraid of a refurbished item, remember, whatever could initially go wrong probably already HAS gone wrong, and not only has it been repaired, it's been RE-tested and probably scrutinized a little extra by the quality control people, so I never hesitate to take advantage of a refurbished bargain like this. For the price of a TM NASCAR Pro wheel, you get a Saitek's optical/digital potentiometer-free system WITH a very decent implementation of Force Feedback (and very good pedals, too). Drop me a line if you take advantage of the refurbished offer -- I'd like to hear someone else's impressions. -- John Bodn Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine On-Line http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/