VROC Disappointments

I started racing on VROC the other day. I spent a few hours reading and setting up my system/connection per the suggestions on VROC/ Eagle womans sites. I joined two races successfully so far. Seemed very stable, and race performance went well, 36fps mostly. I have had GPL installed for about a month, and know a few tracks well, not all. I hosted many races, all at Silverstone. Thats one track I like/know well. Only one race went smooth. Mostly people join, practice, then disconnect. One race I hosted this morning, 4 people practicing, 20 seconds to race start, two got disconnected, and I lost my green button, and the race started with out me. Bummer. All in all I am discouraged with VROC. Is there anything I am not aware of about VROC that would make my experience more enjoyable. Are others unwilling or unable to stay connected to me? I am depressed about the whole thing. Any input is welcome. Kenny

What kind of connection do you have, reg modem, isdn, cable? Chances are, if your on a std modem, folks aren't getting a good enough connection to stay in the race with you. Lot of times folks keep getting disconnected because of this. Try to join races with a good host, ie cable, isdn, and see if your experience doesn't get better. -- Don Burnette Palmetto Racing Dburn on Ten >I started racing on VROC the other day. I spent a few hours reading and >setting up my system/connection per the suggestions on VROC/ Eagle womans >sites. >I joined two races successfully so far. Seemed very stable, and race >performance went well, 36fps mostly. >I have had GPL installed for about a month, and know a few tracks well, not >all. >I hosted many races, all at Silverstone. Thats one track I like/know well. >Only one race went smooth. >Mostly people join, practice, then disconnect. One race I hosted this >morning, 4 people practicing, 20 seconds to race start, two got >disconnected, and I lost my green button, and the race started with out me. >Bummer. All in all I am discouraged with VROC. >Is there anything I am not aware of about VROC that would make my experience >more enjoyable. >Are others unwilling or unable to stay connected to me? >I am depressed about the whole thing. >Any input is welcome. >Kenny

I am not sure why the connections are not stable. Having flown Air Warrior 3 and Cart Precision Racing, I was very suprised on how hard it is to stay connected. It probly is not you, but a weak connection fot he other racers to your ip address. I really wish there was a way to solve this problem since it really is a bummer to be in the middle of a good race and get disconnected. -- David Robinson Egan's Law The Pace car will always go 2 MPH slower then your race car idles in first gear.

> I am not sure why the connections are not stable. Having flown Air Warrior > 3 and Cart Precision Racing, I was very suprised on how hard it is to stay > connected. It probly is not you, but a weak connection fot he other racers > to your ip address. I really wish there was a way to solve this problem > since it really is a bummer to be in the middle of a good race and get > disconnected. 100% agree. VROC is great, great fun and Alison Hine et al are to be heartily applauded for getting it to us. But the reasons is it both so good and so bad are really down to GPL and not VROC. GPL is a simply sensational sim let down by its connectability. I think I read somewhere that its connectability is optimised around a LAN (where data traffic is dependable and quick). Being blown out of a race is SO frustrating - I wouldn't mind not being able to see my fellow racers for a second or so if it would only leave me in the race. I can't even get to race with any of my friends over direct phone lines because of reported differing modem speeds. My brother in law can't even load GPL if his modem is connected. The planned Internet patch for GPL is eagerly anticipated in this corner. Cheers, Paul

. The planned Internet patch for GPL is eagerly Great, I hope it comes soon since i love the game just hate to try to play online since its too unstable. Dave

Try this: http://www.surrey.quik.com/dwilliam/gplonlin.htm It just another way to race online, and my contribution to the SIM community. Dean

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>I started racing on VROC the other day. I spent a few hours reading and >setting up my system/connection per the suggestions on VROC/ Eagle womans >sites. >I joined two races successfully so far. Seemed very stable, and race >performance went well, 36fps mostly. >I have had GPL installed for about a month, and know a few tracks well, not >all. >I hosted many races, all at Silverstone. Thats one track I like/know well. >Only one race went smooth. >Mostly people join, practice, then disconnect. One race I hosted this >morning, 4 people practicing, 20 seconds to race start, two got >disconnected, and I lost my green button, and the race started with out me. >Bummer. All in all I am discouraged with VROC. >Is there anything I am not aware of about VROC that would make my

experience >more enjoyable. >Are others unwilling or unable to stay connected to me? >I am depressed about the whole thing. >Any input is welcome. >Kenny

On the other hand, I just won my first race on VROC. I joined a race at Silverstone, same track I've been trying to host for days, and my connection was at .222latency, ran smooth. I won cause most other racers disconnected or crashed, and I stayed online and on line. cool. I would like to see a patch, also. since I've only finished two out on 20 race attempts due to disconnections.

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> . The planned Internet patch for GPL is eagerly > > anticipated in this corner. > > Cheers, > > Paul > Great, I hope it comes soon since i love the game just hate to try to play > online since its too unstable. > Dave

I've seen lots of posts regarding online connections at VROC being so unstable. I had the same problem as well. I REREAD the technical sections again,and there is a entire section on reconfiguring a seperate DUN for online racing,as well as modifiying your cache. I tried it,and it WORKS. The connection is very,very slow,but very stable. I now have 2 DUNs and I can stay connected 90% of the time. The other problem with VROC is with the drivers not the connections. I now avoid Novice races and certain Inter.short races depending on the host. As these races tend to have the most inexperienced drivers. It is nearly impossible making a lap with out being creamed in the rear braking for the 1st few corners. No matter how many quick notes in the chat program before the start, reminding everyone that you have to finish to win,and everyones agreement to take it easy till the field gets sorted out,only lasts until the flag is thrown. As an example,last night,the 1st 3 races ended this way. After nearly a combined hour of practice,not being able to race for the win in 3 races,is not a good precentage at all. Perhaps some sort of gradind system is needed to make it more injoyable for all. Joel Willstein

> Good luck and don't get down on VROC they have done all this work for > FREE!!!!! They owe us all NOTHING. We owe them many thanks. Absolutely agree! That they have put together such a great site and deserve warm applause all round, Cheers, Paul

Well, lately, I've had great sucess connecting with VROC. And I agree that I have no right to whine about VROC, It is very cool, and best of all, it is free. I guess I had a couple of bad days. I need more St. John's Wort.

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>Hi Kenny, >It's not really VROC's fault, it's the internet, it's varied connections, >it's GPL and it's code. >I have had many great races on VROC. For best success, connect with ISDN, >CABLE or T1 hosts. Sometimes I have to reconnect with my ISP several times >to get a good connection to the Net since I'm on phone lines installed in >1958. >Good luck and don't get down on VROC they have done all this work for >FREE!!!!! They owe us all NOTHING. We owe them many thanks. >>I started racing on VROC the other day. I spent a few hours reading and >>setting up my system/connection per the suggestions on VROC/ Eagle womans >>sites. >>I joined two races successfully so far. Seemed very stable, and race >>performance went well, 36fps mostly. >>I have had GPL installed for about a month, and know a few tracks well,

not >>all. >>I hosted many races, all at Silverstone. Thats one track I like/know well. >>Only one race went smooth. >>Mostly people join, practice, then disconnect. One race I hosted this >>morning, 4 people practicing, 20 seconds to race start, two got >>disconnected, and I lost my green button, and the race started with out me.

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>>Bummer. All in all I am discouraged with VROC. >>Is there anything I am not aware of about VROC that would make my >experience >>more enjoyable. >>Are others unwilling or unable to stay connected to me? >>I am depressed about the whole thing. >>Any input is welcome. >>Kenny

I have ISDN 64k and I very rarely get dropped. I run the Honda exclusively, though, and if a Lotus intensive field is so much faster and more consistent than me I feel it's better to get out of the way so I don't mess anyone up. That's just me being considerate tho.... The HotSeat http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~sf5j-rdyn/ >Kenny

Same here but I must admit I have very few problems with online races. My ping to cable, T1 or UK ISDN hosts is always between .250 and .350 and I rarely get disconnected. What Demon number do you use Paul? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

I've tried pretty much all of them but 0845-3535666 is the one I use most. Recently I have switched to BT (though I still have my Demon account) in anticipation of the ADSL which I should be getting in the next 3 weeks (yippee!!!). Get ready for some UK ADSL hosting very soon. Cheers, Paul

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> > The planned Internet patch for GPL is eagerly > >anticipated in this corner. > Same here but I must admit I have very few problems with online races. > My ping to cable, T1 or UK ISDN hosts is always between .250 and .350 > and I rarely get disconnected. > What Demon number do you use Paul? > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash > http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk > ICQ# 11257824 > 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

If you have a more local number try that. I usually connect through the 0171 London number. Although it's been engaged tones across the board at Demon this evening :-) And where can I find info on BT's ADSL? How much does it cost? I'm hopefully getting a cable modem later in the year but if ADSL is cheap enough I may well consider that! -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

Hi Graeme, Well, it's on 6-month trial in West and North London for 30.00 a month incl. VAT and Incl. BT ISP charges. They fit a network card in your box for nothing. You have to have the required spec machine, a BT phone line, it musn't be an ISDN or Highway line and you must use BTInternet as an ISP. Speeds are 2mbs. Cable modems will compete with ADSL. They are promising speeds 60 times faster than ISDN - that's faster than ADSL but it will depend on how much traffic there is on the line and they won't use the page-caching model that BT ADSL does. See http://www.btinteractive.com/Registration/ - this is a case sensitive URL. To think that I nearly got BT Highway!!! Close call that! Cheers, Paul

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> >I've tried pretty much all of them but 0845-3535666 is the one I use most. > >Recently I have switched to BT (though I still have my Demon account) in > >anticipation of the ADSL which I should be getting in the next 3 weeks > >(yippee!!!). Get ready for some UK ADSL hosting very soon. > If you have a more local number try that. I usually connect through the > 0171 London number. Although it's been engaged tones across the board at > Demon this evening :-) > And where can I find info on BT's ADSL? How much does it cost? I'm > hopefully getting a cable modem later in the year but if ADSL is cheap > enough I may well consider that! > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash > http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk > ICQ# 11257824 > 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:44:45 GMT, "5th Doctor" >snipped Ummm. If you're hosting one thing that'll help keep people connected is resetting the server after each race. Meaning you escape back to the Multiplayer screen until all clients are disconnected and then they reconnect. (It's nice if you warn them beforehand too). In this way the Roster is cleaned up and the problem of people's times not being counted is much less likely. It MIGHT help with stabilizing connects too but I don't know. btw: I think GPL's Internet connectivity is outstanding. Until it came along where could you race five, ten, even fif*** or twenty people for free?! That said, I hope they find a way to improve it even more though. JBurrowes

Wow, 30 a month! That's cheaper than cable modems are expected to be. The thing that got me about cable modems was the fact that there would be no phone bills, so I could connect whenever I wanted. Can you do that with ADSL or is it charged like a normal phone call? I hardly know anything about it. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

Hurrah! try the new green ROMP - 0845 212 0666 - got rid of all my engaged tones on Colt, NER and vPOP numbers, not tried Red or Purple yet though, Colt will be discontinued pretty soon anyway :( do you find BT has lower pings than Demon? Anyone using Freeserve for this? Does Freeserves cache only web browsing allow a VROC type connection? I've not tried VROC yet - didn't think there was much point, most people in the UK seem to have lots of trouble getting a good connection, hopefully when ADSL does come around there'll be a some UK hosted races -- Mike Buckley Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd Tel: 44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: 44 (0)1472 371208 WWW: www.toastyhamster.freeserve.co.uk

Hi Graeme, Just checked out the site. Yes its 30 a month all in - 24 hours a day high speed access. Wow! Sadly the trial is for only 900 homes & businesses in North & West London for 6 months. So I guess you may have to move. Cheers Tony

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>Wow, 30 a month! That's cheaper than cable modems are expected to be. >The thing that got me about cable modems was the fact that there would >be no phone bills, so I could connect whenever I wanted. Can you do that >with ADSL or is it charged like a normal phone call? I hardly know >anything about it. >-- >Cheers! >Graeme Nash >http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk >ICQ# 11257824 >1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

They'd better hurry up and get it everywhere. It's annoying because I heard mumblings about Cable & Wireless running a Cable modem trial down here in Bromley in January. Doesn't look like it ever happened :-( I just wonder what ADSL's 256k UPLOAD speed does to GPL. 2mbs downloads will be good though :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

On Sun, 14 Feb 1999 04:51:00 +0000, Paul Jones <...> Well that is good, because online racing is the way of the future. I can't really use the sim without racing online anymore; it is too much fun racing real people. Here are some ideas for VROC or GPL (depending on who's job it would be to implement them). I haven't thought these through terribly carefully, but perhap we can toss them around: 1) a way for people to allow their machines to host while they aren't there (Please please!). This would mean cycling through tracks automatically after each race. 2) some simple way to change cars without disconnecting (for all those "BRM only" servers you discover only after loggin on) 3)a way to use key-combo stock phrases in chat without typing ("sorry", "NP", "please move over- I'm lapping you", etc.). Perhaps that is too un-simmlike, but it sure is irritating having backrunners race you and eventually put you in the dirt... 4)see latency without going on to pit lane. 5)go back to having VROC chat at the bottom of the Netscape page- I think that was a great place to go when nothing was happening, and you wanted to set up another race. Or vent about just gettting discoed! 6) a way to see who is practicing (and times) at a particular server before going to it. Maybe a way to check race standings at a given server- but maybe that is too taxing during the race for the server 7)a way to save lap info and garage info before getting tossed to the "newspaper" 8) have a way for server to restrict access from specific people (of course, they can always change their names). 9) the choice for the server to allow people to connect when practice is over but race hasn't started yet. Perhaps even the choice for a server to let people connect during a race- boon to discoed drivers, or people who just want to watch a good race. 10) show records of top speeds for server or most wins per individual, etc. 11) provide a way to know how many people are still racing with you (sucks not realizing until end that everyone else left). 12) show who is hosting a particular race- everyone always ends up asking after the race. ... that is all I can think of right now...

> >>(yippee!!!). Get ready for some UK ADSL hosting very soon. > Hurrah! Next Friday (26th Feb). Couldn't see a difference between Demon, Freeserve and BT. Dconns were higher with Demon, then Freeserve, with BT having the fewest number. Freeserve does support VROC. It's still good, though you have to stay up late to get on all the fast US connections. Sunday evening is always bad - I guess it's due to too much Internet traffic. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday seem best but there are also fewer hosts then. Oink, oink Cheers, Paul

> I just wonder what ADSL's 256k UPLOAD speed does to GPL. 2mbs downloads > will be good though :-) 256 kbps is twice as fast as bonded ISDN, four times as fast as single line ISDN. Should be plenty enough for 20 racers - here's hoping anyway. Cheers, Paul

Some good ideas in that list and I'd like to add one more which actually isn't my idea. I can't remember who posted it originally but ..... Most of the times when I get disco'd at VROC the modem still remains connected and GPL is still fine - it just boots me out due to what I guess is a temporary bandwidth problem. The improvement would be to use the Microprose GP2 trick of letting the computer take over the driving of your car until the modem connection picks up speed again. The computer would then introduce you back into the race using the 5,4,3,2,1 countdown. A big pat on the back to whoever thought of this - I just wanted to repost it so that it wasn't forgotten. Andy.

Kenny I don't know anyone who can say that they don't experience disconnects from time to time. Setting up a seperate DUN for VROC helped a lot. All the info you need is in the tech section. And yes,we owe Alison and Nate Hine a great deal for all their effort and time spent on giving us a place to race online for FREE. Ten isn't anymore stable from what I hear,and you have to pay to race. Joel Willstein

> Anyone using Freeserve for this? Does Freeserves cache only web browsing > allow a VROC type connection? Freeserve does support it with web caching on - note you CAN turn the proxy off anyway. Freeserve has gone really slow, as the volume of users has increased. In its infancy it was great - IMHO its not really viable for GPL at the moment. Hopefully they will get on top of it. With a reasonably quick ISP, VROC connections are fine in the UK - I regularly connect to cable modem servers in the states. Cheers Tony

I was under the impression that all Freeserve's web access was by cached servers? I know there are setting in IE to turn proxy's off (Demons proxy's are shite anyway). :( neither are Demon, is it true that the BT Internet is free now? hope yet then! just got to download nutscrape from somewhere unless i can find it on a cover disk somewhere! -- Mike Buckley Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd Tel: 44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: 44 (0)1472 371208 WWW: www.toastyhamster.freeserve.co.uk

>4)see latency without going on to pit lane. You can now. Just hit Alt-L while driving. "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

% I just wonder what ADSL's 256k UPLOAD speed does to GPL. 2mbs downloads % will be good though :-) Should easily be able to handle 12 drivers with no problem (that is if you have a mixed bag -- some modem, probably more if everyone was on fast connections, cable, xDSL, T1, etc.). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% 1) a way for people to allow their machines to host while they aren't % there (Please please!). This would mean cycling through tracks % automatically after each race. Rumor has it that this and more such features are coming the much anticipated patch from Papyrus... % 12) show who is hosting a particular race- everyone always ends up % asking after the race. This is always the "first" name listed when you turn the page on the Event info.... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I was ripped apart a few months ago here at r.a.s. for insisting there were problems with GPL online. David G Fisher i love the game just hate to try to play

% I was ripped apart a few months ago here at r.a.s. for insisting there were % problems with GPL online. No you weren't... We all agree that there are problems with GPL online, however, most of us also realized that some of the problems aren't GPL's but are inherent with the territory of Internet *** and trying to achieve the depth of racing that GPL is attempting. Some of the problems you pointed out were not problems with GPL, but with ISP's, setups, and Internet "weather". By the way Dave, it you keep picking at that damn scab, it will never heal.... % David G Fisher % i love the game just hate to try to play % >online since its too unstable. % > % >Dave -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>% I was ripped apart a few months ago here at r.a.s. for insisting there were

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>% problems with GPL online. >No you weren't... We all agree that there are problems with GPL online, >however, most of us also realized that some of the problems aren't GPL's >but are inherent with the territory of Internet *** and trying to >achieve the depth of racing that GPL is attempting. Some of the >problems you pointed out were not problems with GPL, but with ISP's, >setups, and Internet "weather". >By the way Dave, it you keep picking at that damn scab, it will never >heal....

Yes, I was ripped apart. I know all about how online racing works and have 1,000+ hours of online racing experience. I know what problems are caused by a game, what are caused by the internet itself, and how a sim in 1999 can perform online. One example of what I was dealing with were so called internet racing experts who insisted that the claim of frequent disconnects of racers was a myth. In this thread, it's pretty obvious that people are now willing to admit that they are commonplace. By the way, I have no interest in debating this topic anymore. Also, I haven't mentioned a word about GPL online for a couple of months so I'd say the scab is looooong gone. David G Fisher

When I first started racing GPL online I too had constant disconnect problems. Even after following all the setup recommendations on VROC and on Alison's web site. Two things stand out as big improvements for online racing in GPL over dialup modem. 1. Replace winmodem (controlerless), with non-winmodem, with onboard seral port. 2. Slow 56k modem to 33.6 or disable V.90/56k. The second change took me from 50% disconnects to LESS than 10%, rarely really. The online racing experience with GPL has become big fun. Marty

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> > I hosted many races, all at Silverstone. Thats one track I like/know > well. > > Only one race went smooth. > > Mostly people join, practice, then disconnect. One race I hosted this > > morning, 4 people practicing, 20 seconds to race start, two got > > disconnected, and I lost my green button, and the race started with out > me. > > Bummer. All in all I am discouraged with VROC. > > Is there anything I am not aware of about VROC that would make my > experience > > more enjoyable. > > Are others unwilling or unable to stay connected to me? > > I am depressed about the whole thing. > > Any input is welcome. > I am not sure why the connections are not stable. Having flown Air Warrior > 3 and Cart Precision Racing, I was very suprised on how hard it is to stay > connected. It probly is not you, but a weak connection fot he other racers > to your ip address. I really wish there was a way to solve this problem > since it really is a bummer to be in the middle of a good race and get > disconnected. > -- > David Robinson > Egan's Law > The Pace car will always go 2 MPH slower then your race car idles in first > gear.

No-one disagreed that there are issues, they just disagreed with your spin on the ball. Gummy Bear

Quote 2: Quote 1: The prosecution rests its case m'lud.

Hi, If you can still get hold of it (or have it), it's on the PC Gamer Christmas 1998 cover CD -- Ian Parker ICQ 21772592 >just got to download nutscrape from somewhere unless i can find it on a >cover disk somewhere! >--

>>4)see latency without going on to pit lane. > You can now. Just hit Alt-L while driving. I mean when not even on the track. You see, I don't like going on to the track when practice is over (I don't like getting yelled at), but often we sit there for up to 5 minutes waiting for the race to start- that is almost always when I've got the time and inclination to check. Not a big issue; just one of the dozen or so random ones I was trying to think of.

Hi Michael, On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:03:49 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >% 1) a way for people to allow their machines to host while they aren't >% there (Please please!). This would mean cycling through tracks >% automatically after each race. >Rumor has it that this and more such features are coming the much >anticipated patch from Papyrus... I think they now realize just what a hit this personal server/TCP/IP format is. Not that I think Quake2 is perfect, but it certainly has had a lot more experience with the format- and millions more users. Gamespy, the equivelent of VROC in a way, tells you more about a server than you would even want to know- down to the names, scores and pings of other players currently playing, last time you went to that server, last ping at that server... unbelievable, really. Q2 *really* was painful to use until I found Gamespy- similar to GPL before the saints of VROC descended to help us out. Great! That is a big help- now I won't have to say "Who's the host? ... Uh, thanks!" Thanks, and see ya out there...

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>When I first started racing GPL online I too had constant disconnect problems. >Even after following all the setup recommendations on VROC and on Alison's web >site. >Two things stand out as big improvements for online racing in GPL over dialup >modem. >1. Replace winmodem (controlerless), with non-winmodem, with onboard seral >port.

Agreed- Winmodems are not encouraged for CPU intensive stuff like GPL I have a 56k, but never achieve over 28k- fact is, I almost never get disconnected. Well, not during a race, at any rate. >The second change took me from 50% disconnects to LESS than 10%, rarely really. >The online racing experience with GPL has become big fun. <...> Just a guess- but isn't CPR using dedicated servers at Microsoft's site? I think so. And regarding flight sims- I am not sure they need the same bandwidth of driving sims, where cars are within feet of each other for extended periods, sharing so much data between cars. Uses a lot of bandwith. I understood that the TCP/IP personal server format adopted by Papy was something they took on only after much nudging- they thought it was a near impossible task (if impossible). Clearly, they achieved something wonderful- I hope the barriers get pushed much further now. This is the only way to race, outside of a real car!

Yeah (BTW I agree with your post about online being the next best to the real cars!) Just hit the tilde key to turn chat OFF when in a menu. Then hit ALT-L, hit the tilde key again to turn chat ON, and you will see the latency. This sequence is important. --Dave

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> >>4)see latency without going on to pit lane. > > You can now. Just hit Alt-L while driving. > I mean when not even on the track. You see, I don't like going on to > the track when practice is over (I don't like getting yelled at), but > often we sit there for up to 5 minutes waiting for the race to start- > that is almost always when I've got the time and inclination to check. > Not a big issue; just one of the dozen or so random ones I was trying > to think of. > >"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > >nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > >a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

-- Dave Schwabe The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

Close the chat pad, hit ALT-L, then open the chat pad back up. More often than not, this will work. However, there is a bug in GPL 1.0 that can sometimes leave the "show latency" control deactivated when you get out of the car (this same bug can also sometimes leave your driving controls deactivated when you try to get _into_ your car). This bug is more likely to happen if you leave the chat pad open when you hit the green button to get into your car. The bug is fixed in the upcoming GPL 1.1 patch. Randy

Oooohhhhh.... It has a definite version number now! And it's a full tenth! Sounds pretty significant and just around the corner! Any comment, Randy? Please?!? Don't make us beg.

% > % >>4)see latency without going on to pit lane. % > % > You can now. Just hit Alt-L while driving. % I mean when not even on the track. You see, I don't like going on to % the track when practice is over (I don't like getting yelled at), but % often we sit there for up to 5 minutes waiting for the race to start- % that is almost always when I've got the time and inclination to check. % Not a big issue; just one of the dozen or so random ones I was trying % to think of. If you close the chat window and press ALT-L and then re-open the chat window you can see the latency report. This works as well before you even enter the "track" (i.e., sitting at the screen with the race program cover -- as long as the green flag is showing in the lower right hand corner). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:03:49 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >>% 12) show who is hosting a particular race- everyone always ends up >>% asking after the race. >>This is always the "first" name listed when you turn the page on the >>Event info.... >Great! That is a big help- now I won't have to say "Who's the host? >... Uh, thanks!"

The host also always gets car number 4. Do *not* run into car number 4. :) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

I thought of another thing I think is important to add to the list of future upgrades- having a server option to *not* refuel after a SHIFT-R. The refueling SHIFT-R has some downsides- for one, on a long race, some people can go out on very light loads then SHIFT-R occasionally in hairpins. Secondly, if you do get wiped out by a backmarker or such 3/4ths of the way through the race, it is simply a terrible drag to go back not only to cold tires, but also a full fuel tank. For that matter, how about an option to leave tires as they were (temperature and wear). Of course, if you blow a tire, that's a problem! If these sound like details, take a look at the Quake2 server options... there's at least 100 of them. Not to mention 30 different mods to start with! >Here are some ideas for VROC or GPL (depending on who's job it would >be to implement them). I haven't thought these through terribly >carefully, but perhap we can toss them around: >1) a way for people to allow their machines to host while they aren't >there (Please please!). This would mean cycling through tracks >automatically after each race. This would mean many more people just leaving their machines running GPL server for us while they are off doing something else :-) Or when you discover that you are 3 seconds a lap faster than anyone else on the server, and feel it might be a good time to try a new car... last night this happened twice. Instead I just waited for everyone to catch up a few times... but it was still beat. I now know, thanks to you guys, that this is presently possible- thanks. IOW, do a "GameSpy" sort of thing. Thanks- I also now realize that the host is always #4. And as pointed out, *don't* hit #4 ;) Nothing worse than hearing the host complain after a bad start that he's going to start having password only races...

Well, since I'm on a roll, here's another thing I've thought of- an optional sound "alarm" of some sort when the race is counting down to start. ANybody else ever been caught in the garage not realizing the race has suddenly (after 5 minutes in "ending practice session") discovered the race was counting down?!? Or, worse, caught similarly on a quick trip to the bathroom?!

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>I thought of another thing I think is important to add to the list of >future upgrades- having a server option to *not* refuel after a >SHIFT-R. The refueling SHIFT-R has some downsides- for one, on a long >race, some people can go out on very light loads then SHIFT-R >occasionally in hairpins. Secondly, if you do get wiped out by a >backmarker or such 3/4ths of the way through the race, it is simply a >terrible drag to go back not only to cold tires, but also a full fuel >tank. >For that matter, how about an option to leave tires as they were >(temperature and wear). Of course, if you blow a tire, that's a >problem! >If these sound like details, take a look at the Quake2 server >options... there's at least 100 of them. Not to mention 30 different >mods to start with! >>Here are some ideas for VROC or GPL (depending on who's job it would >>be to implement them). I haven't thought these through terribly >>carefully, but perhap we can toss them around: >>1) a way for people to allow their machines to host while they aren't >>there (Please please!). This would mean cycling through tracks >>automatically after each race. >This would mean many more people just leaving their machines running >GPL server for us while they are off doing something else :-) >>2) some simple way to change cars without disconnecting (for all those >>"BRM only" servers you discover only after loggin on) >Or when you discover that you are 3 seconds a lap faster than anyone >else on the server, and feel it might be a good time to try a new >car... last night this happened twice. Instead I just waited for >everyone to catch up a few times... but it was still beat. >>3)a way to use key-combo stock phrases in chat without typing >>("sorry", "NP", "please move over- I'm lapping you", etc.). Perhaps >>that is too un-simmlike, but it sure is irritating having backrunners >>race you and eventually put you in the dirt... >>4)see latency without going on to pit lane. >I now know, thanks to you guys, that this is presently possible- >thanks. >>5)go back to having VROC chat at the bottom of the Netscape page- I >>think that was a great place to go when nothing was happening, and you >>wanted to set up another race. Or vent about just gettting discoed! >>6) a way to see who is practicing (and times) at a particular server >>before going to it. Maybe a way to check race standings at a given >>server- but maybe that is too taxing during the race for the server >IOW, do a "GameSpy" sort of thing. >>7)a way to save lap info and garage info before getting tossed to the >>"newspaper" >>8) have a way for server to restrict access from specific people (of >>course, they can always change their names). >>9) the choice for the server to allow people to connect when practice >>is over but race hasn't started yet. Perhaps even the choice for a >>server to let people connect during a race- boon to discoed drivers, >>or people who just want to watch a good race. >>10) show records of top speeds for server or most wins per individual, >>etc. >>11) provide a way to know how many people are still racing with you >>(sucks not realizing until end that everyone else left). >>12) show who is hosting a particular race- everyone always ends up >>asking after the race. >Thanks- I also now realize that the host is always #4. And as pointed >out, *don't* hit #4 ;) Nothing worse than hearing the host complain >after a bad start that he's going to start having password only >races...

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> I thought of another thing I think is important to add to the list of > future upgrades- having a server option to *not* refuel after a > SHIFT-R. The refueling SHIFT-R has some downsides- for one, on a long > race, some people can go out on very light loads then SHIFT-R > occasionally in hairpins. Secondly, if you do get wiped out by a > backmarker or such 3/4ths of the way through the race, it is simply a > terrible drag to go back not only to cold tires, but also a full fuel > tank.

I like the cold tires and original fuel load -- it makes you choose between running the last few laps with bad toe-in or press SHIFT-R and suffer from the cold tires and fuel load. I think I was one of these hosts. If I wanted a full race, the open server was the way to go. However, after having 10 drivers and 2 finishers after 2 PRO races (Monaco and Nurburgring) I decided it was better to start with 5 PRC drivers and finish with 5 PRC drivers. I thought the difficulty and selection of track would scare the rookies away, but it didn't work. On a good note, I will be hosting PRC recruiting race(s) Thursday 10pm EST on VROC in the Open2 room to try and minimize the number of rookies that join. -- -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:53:35 -0700, Jason Monds

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>> I thought of another thing I think is important to add to the list of >> future upgrades- having a server option to *not* refuel after a >> SHIFT-R. The refueling SHIFT-R has some downsides- for one, on a long >> race, some people can go out on very light loads then SHIFT-R >> occasionally in hairpins. Secondly, if you do get wiped out by a >> backmarker or such 3/4ths of the way through the race, it is simply a >> terrible drag to go back not only to cold tires, but also a full fuel >> tank. >I like the cold tires and original fuel load -- it makes you choose between >running the last few laps with bad toe-in or press SHIFT-R and suffer >from the cold tires and fuel load.

Well, I mean having an option to keep or omit shift-r refueling, depending on the server owner's choice. I must admit, there have been races where I was so sure that I would get knocked off at least once in the race by an over-eager lapped car (you can judge those races in the practice!) that I considered the light fuel load. I don't like that we can do that. But I also have been in one too many races where the last 5 laps of a 27 lapper I've had to do on a full tank because someone got sloppy- no fun. At least for me. Since I'm throwing future upgrade ideas lately, here's another option- make a limit to how much fuel or mileage cars can go out on a given race- force there to be at least on pit stop. Even in a 14 lap race, that could be interesting. Just a thought. How do we get the password? ;-)

Hi Mapson, You don't need a password for the recruiting races. That's why I hold them in the Open rooms :-) If you are interested in attending, just tell me that you like to 'try out' (during practice) and make sure I have your email address. I figure there are 3 kinds of drivers in GPL. Those who are members of PRC (Pro Racing Club) and those who are not members are the bad drivers we are trying to keep out of our races :) The other group are rookies that need more practice to stay on the road, but would make fine members one day. To be a member you not have to be fast, just clean. Latency is important as well because we race mainly PRO races. The recruiting race is a chance for me to see you in action and check latency. Once your accepted into the group you get our passwords :-) That should cover it. Jason.

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> On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:53:35 -0700, Jason Monds > >On a good note, I will be hosting PRC recruiting race(s) Thursday 10pm EST > >on VROC in the Open2 room to try and minimize the number of rookies that > >join. > How do we get the password? ;-)

-- -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Hi Jason, i find your comments in this post a bit on the offensive side to say the least. In other words, everyone who is not a member of the mighty PRC in your opinion, is either a rookie who can't stay on the road, or a bad driver who doesn't deserve the honour of racing with the PRC members. Sheesh, talk about arrogant. I hope you made a mistake in your wording of this post, or my opinion of you has just took a rather large down turn. I feel you should have added a 4th group of racers to your comments, like: "The rest of the sim world that are good clean racers and just do not want, or wish to part of the PRC." I run in a league called the GMSS, and i know i have never raced against a cleaner or better class of driver than is presently located in our league. There are plenty of other leagues that are not part of the PRC as well, and i am sure they are just as clean and capable of good racing as ANY member of the PRC, so how do you get off on saying if your not a member of the PRC you are either a "Rookie who can't stay on the road", or a "Bad Driver" .. ? There is more to sim racing life than the PRC. I wonder if you could clarify this post or reword it a bit better, as the way you have stated it, simply sucks! Cheers, and have a nice day, from a bad rookie driver. Ron ps.. if you did make a mistake in the wording of this post, then i apologise for my outburst, but if what you said is in your opinion true, then i stand by this post... > Hi Mapson, > You don't need a password for the recruiting races. That's why I hold them > in the Open rooms :-) If you are interested in attending, just tell me that > you like to 'try out' (during practice) and make sure I have your email address. > I figure there are 3 kinds of drivers in GPL. Those who are members of > PRC (Pro Racing Club) and those who are not members are the bad > drivers we are trying to keep out of our races :) The other group are > rookies that need more practice to stay on the road, but would make > fine members one day. > To be a member you not have to be fast, just clean. Latency is important

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> as well because we race mainly PRO races. The recruiting race is a > chance for me to see you in action and check latency. > Once your accepted into the group you get our passwords :-) > That should cover it. > Jason. > > On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:53:35 -0700, Jason Monds > > >On a good note, I will be hosting PRC recruiting race(s) Thursday

10pm EST > > >on VROC in the Open2 room to try and minimize the number of rookies that

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> > >join. > > How do we get the password? ;-) > -- > -------- > Jason Monds > "My other car is a Ferrari" > http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake

setups > (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Hi Ron,

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> Hi Jason, i find your comments in this post a bit on the offensive side > to say the least. > In other words, everyone who is not a member of the mighty PRC in your > opinion, is either a rookie who can't stay on the road, or a bad driver > who doesn't deserve the honour of racing with the PRC members. > Sheesh, talk about arrogant.

Chill. I meant, the Open VROC races are not fun with all the crashes at the start. Anyone who wants to enjoy GPL (without the crashing) has to join a special league (or group). The PRC is just a group of like minded drivers -- we don't like people who try to come from last place on the grid and crash everyone out. We stress clean driving and passing. As for the rookies. I'm sure they don't want to crash people out, but just haven't developed the skill to be consistant yet. Ok not being a part of the PRC is fine. But those people must be searching for other 'leagues' I'm sure. See. You found open races to be horrible and had to search for a group of clean drivers. The GMSS does that for you. I believe Micheal Carver is a member of the GMSS group and PRC, and allows both racers into his Monday race. I should have made that clearer. PRC means you want to drive clean, but of course that can be found in ANY other league or group. I mostly post while at work and may not always get my ideas across perfectly. Like right now, I should be leaving -- its after 5pm and I need to get home to support another client by phone at 6pm :-) Would you be in the GMSS if you were a bad driver? Probably not. I hope I cleared this up. It was a partial misunderstanding. The PRC is a group of over 100 drivers who like to race clean. That is all. I'm sure you like to race clean, that would put you in the 'PRC' group even though you are in the GMSS. Wouldn't the GMSS kick out drivers who were careless and crashed people out every race?

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> > Hi Mapson, > > You don't need a password for the recruiting races. That's why I > hold them > > in the Open rooms :-) If you are interested in attending, just tell > me that > > you like to 'try out' (during practice) and make sure I have your > email address. > > I figure there are 3 kinds of drivers in GPL. Those who are members > of > > PRC (Pro Racing Club) and those who are not members are the bad > > drivers we are trying to keep out of our races :) The other group > are > > rookies that need more practice to stay on the road, but would make > > fine members one day. > > To be a member you not have to be fast, just clean. Latency is > important > > as well because we race mainly PRO races. The recruiting race is a > > chance for me to see you in action and check latency. > > Once your accepted into the group you get our passwords :-) > > That should cover it. > > Jason. > > > On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:53:35 -0700, Jason Monds > > > >On a good note, I will be hosting PRC recruiting race(s) Thursday > 10pm EST > > > >on VROC in the Open2 room to try and minimize the number of > rookies that > > > >join. > > > How do we get the password? ;-) > > -- > > -------- > > Jason Monds > > "My other car is a Ferrari" > > http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake > setups > > (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Is this my first flame? If not, it must be the 2nd on the same topic too. -- -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Hi again Jason, I understand what you are talking about in your post, but i felt the way you said it was not the best way of approaching this problem. There certainly are more classes of sim drivers than you have given credit to. I know quite a few rookie/new drivers to GPL that can stay on the track, they are not fast, but are clean, and i would take a slow clean driver over a fast, shift-r mentality driver anyday. :-) That is why pro racing is the best way to go in a on-line race. It won't stop them all, but will deter a few of the worst offenders. I suppose i just get a bit dissapointed in the way that a lot of the hosts on VROC are starting to password their races. I understand why, but i still think that is the wrong approach to introduce the new sim racers of the world to the fun of our on-line racing community. One reason for that is that the new driver to GPL is not going to have the confidence to apply for a password and join a race, knowing full well he may botch it, and they will be totally put off racing on-line if all they can join is a shift-r, go like hell and win at all costs, type of a race. A better way, IMO, would be to be able to have a kill list enabled from within the hosts' computer in GPL to prevent the, "win at all costs", mentality racer from entering a GPL race. If a driver ends up on that list, it is because he deserves to be there. I just get a bit cheesed off at times i suppose, about all the holier than thou attitude that abounds in the sim racing community, and i would prefer to let the sim community sort it self out with who can be trusted, and who can't, not make them join a special club or group just to be able to have good clean races on-line. I can understand the need for passwords in league races, but for the rest, it does more harm than good to the racing community as a whole. It always tends to create divisions within groups, about who is good & clean and who is, (in the host's opinion) a schmuck. The idiots will soon learn to curb their eagerness at the line etc. or they won't be welcomed for very long. As you say, you can't win a race in the first lap, when everyone realises that, things will start to improve. I just hope the current trend to password races is a dying fad, because the on-line sim racing community doesn't need those sort of politics to be successfull... If cable ever becomes available in Australia cheap enough, i will not be passwording any races except for the points races for our league. No hard feelings Jason, hopefully i will see you on-line in an open event sometime, if i can still find one.... <G> Cheers, Ron

Well Jason I can assure you that I will not be a member of the PRC, due to your preconcieved notion of that there are three kinds of drivers. If you want a demonstration of my driving why don't you arrange to come out and drive my real race car. I get really tired and bored with individuals who make sweeping statments like that. I play this game for fun not to be bothered by guys who cannot accept that some people have poor judgement in the heat of the moment especailly when they do have to pay the consequences a driver in a real race car would have too. -- David Robinson Egan's Law The Pace car will always go 2 MPH slower then your race car idles in first gear.

Hello again Ron :-) I checked out the replay of the Monday Mexico race that Micheal Carver held. You were the Brahbam behind me in T1 :-), but slid to the inside :-(. As a client I only get to see 6 cars, that was all I noticed. I made a great pass on Alison in the closing laps -- great fun overall. I like the idea Micheal has. Give the password to any 'clean' drivers: GMSS, PRC, whatever. > Hi again Jason, > I know quite a few rookie/new drivers to GPL that can stay on the > track, they are not fast, but are clean, and i would take a slow clean > driver over a fast, shift-r mentality driver anyday. :-) Rookie may have been a poor choice of words too. We have 'slow' but clean drivers in the PRC -- the Pro stands more for Pro mentality (clean) as you say. Just gets frustrating when your the host and get knocked out of the only 2 races that you can host. I think I'll mainly stick to INT on open VROC races and PRO to passworded races. This should change with the GPL 1.1 patch. I think they are putting in a automatic server mode. We should see a lot more races available 24hrs a day. And those players will not be allowed back into your races unless your remove them from the list? Sounds good to me :-) Nope. If you don't see me in open events, I'll see you in Micheal's Monday races :-) -- Jason Monds theCLAPPER in Kali "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl/ - My combined gas/brake setups (Remove 'no spork' when replying)

:( I'd just like to say that after lurking here for a month or two before trying VROC I was most surprised at the standard of driving I encountered. The only serious start line crash I've been involved in was a 15 strong grid at the Glen and that seemed to be because half the grid were merely trying to keep position and one little touch set off a major incident. I've yet to see someone from the back try to make a stupid move into the first corner, if accidents have happened then apologies have been quick to follow. Indeed, I'm starting to feel I'm overcautious and too gentlemanly as I've been rammed from behind surprising people because of my cautious nature into turn 1. I think the number of startline incidents is a fair reflection of the number that happen in real life current F1 (although I've no idea what it was like in 67). I have no problem with open VROC racing and can see no need to join the PRC, for the sake the future of VROC I hope people agree with me. -- Mike Buckley Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd Tel: 44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: 44 (0)1472 371208 WWW: www.toastyhamster.freeserve.co.uk

Hi David,

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> > I figure there are 3 kinds of drivers in GPL. Those who are members of > > PRC (Pro Racing Club) and those who are not members are the bad > > drivers we are trying to keep out of our races :) The other group are > > rookies that need more practice to stay on the road, but would make > > fine members one day. > Well Jason I can assure you that I will not be a member of the PRC, due to > your preconcieved notion of that there are three kinds of drivers.

No problem. Just remember I am not the 'leader' of the PRC, just the most outspoken member. Now your talking! I would like to race one day, but the expenses get in the way ;) I'll have to wait until I retire -- I work enough to retire at 40 ;) At least I'll have the house paid for. That will make way for many opportunities :-) No comment. I do too. When I only host 6-8 races a week I want to race, not sit around watching. I never restart the race due to an accident. If I'm out on the start, I don't reset the server. I just prefer if my opponents wait for me to crash myself out ;-) I put the word [not] in there -- I believe thats what you meant to say. Racing incidents do occur in the PRC (just not as often as open races). It's just that members of the PRC have proven themselves to be clean-minded drivers. What more can we ask for? Everyone has their bad days and incidents. -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Does the PRC host password-required races? I'm interested in joining up, but have not had the dubious priviledge of racing in VROC. Don't want to use netscape unless I HAVE to. I am also hugely disappointed in on-line open play in general. I made it to 44th spot on Case's Ladder in Jedi Knight (quite some time ago), but was amazed at the... er... "attitude" of many of the on-line players. I'd rather not waste my time wading through that sort of thing again if I can help it. I am almost ready to move to the Ferrari, but am still getting "stick-time" with the Cooper. Anybody got some good suggestions? Bear in mind that the peurile ones will be ignored. Mike

Greets, i've been involved with online *** for a few years now ... and the guys and gals that frequent VROC are among the nicest ive come across.... both friendly and helpful ... on the whole i think the kids with the big attitudes tend to shy away from GPL ... cya on the ROC shane

On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:11:41 -0700, "Mike Rodriguez" >Does the PRC host password-required races? I'm interested in joining up, but >have not had the dubious priviledge of racing in VROC. Don't want to use >netscape unless I HAVE to. It's not so bad! VROC isn't like the Quake2 crowd (the only other online *** I do)- GPL racers are infinitely more polite and in general well behaved on average. Lots of "sorry" and "NPO" [no problem]. My biggest problem is lapped cars racing leaders too hard, and starts are kamikazee expeditions all too often. I can't stomach a lot of the online stuff like you suggest. But then it is a lot like that in the Newsgroups, isn't it? The GPL crowd strikes me as a lot better than the par I see in USENET. Well, at least as far as *** is concered. I don't hang around the chess group much though ; ) I'm strictly one of those lotus bums, so I'm no help.

[...] All GPL needs to do is implement a way of cycling through tracks automagically. I think Q2 has the best model of this around, giving you not only the choice of maps to cycle through, but also literally hundreds of individually configurable options with which to set up your server. Then people could truly leave their home machines on (with their unlimited cable connections or whatever they are using), and let their machines serve all day while they are at work! No real wear and tear for them, and they sure make an awful lot of people very happy. Servers could wait until there is more than one person to start a race (perpetual practice), cycling to new tracks after a give time if noone comes, and certain individuals could be banned from certain servers. Or just password the whole server to begine with- although I am not for passwords. I can't handle malicious racers, but I don't see them often- usually is is just bad racers, and frankly, they are part of the challenge! Save passwords for series races. Gamespy is unbelievable. One of the best pieces of software I've seen by hackers in a long time. I can't believe the amount of information it gives you; in fact, I don't understand how it gets all the information so fast. I check hundreds of servers in a matter of seconds, and each one has not just my ping, but every player's name and ping and score and how long they've played... and I see when I last played that server, and I see my last ping at that server, and I can organize the list according to pings or type of play or anything I can think of almost. Truly unbelievable. I don't care too much about other people's pings for racing- so long as everyone is at worst .333, it is adequate. Fact is, in Q2, the relationship between ping and player advantage is a gigantic flaw, making the game unplayable for me most of the time. With a 300 ping, you may see lpbs and fire before they are even facing you, but they still kill you. Who needs that! Also, CTF Q2, the only flavor I like anymore, is nevertheless deeply flawed too- having more people on a team means you automatically make more points per capture, and your score doesn't reflect the amount of time you were on the team (so noone wants to switch- you lose everything you had on (and gave to) the old team). So Q2 isn't perfect- but it is close to perfect in it's multiplayer architecture, and should be a model for GPL. Being able to ban certain cars would be a server option, and using, say, a VROC version of "gamespy", you would automatically see what options were set at that server. BTW- while I remember: here's a major gripe with GPL. lately my phone line has disconnected all too often in the middle of a race, and the default action GPL takes is to go to the "join server" screen. I hope in the next "update" (if they were indeed Id, the updates would be monthly!) they default it to the main track screen, so I can view my times and study my tyres, etc. Last night I spent 45 mintues at a track, and am sure I did some of my best times ever... and when my modem discoed, I was dying to see my tyres and look at those times. It was frustrating enough being booted out of the race, much less not being able to see what I'd done and how to improve my setup.