Gran Turismo 2 announced

http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for sheer depth! -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Remove "spam-jammer" to reply Galley Stuff You Gotta Have! "We do the scroungin', so you can do the loungin'!" Rare and hard-to-find video games, movies, music and more. http://www.stuffyougottahave.com/

It's awesome and GT 2 will be bigger and badder than the first. Sony says they have upgraded the graphics. Pre-order here I come !

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>http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html >A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for >sheer depth! >-- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Remove "spam-jammer" to reply > Galley > Stuff You Gotta Have! > "We do the scroungin', so you can do the loungin'!" >Rare and hard-to-find video games, movies, music and more. > http://www.stuffyougottahave.com/

GT is good, but it's not THAT good. Cheers! John

Andre Queree (Mr_Q) wrote Gran Turismo for me was one of the most disappointing racing game ever. I went into it with a open-mind about this title, but Im sorry I was just dissapointed. First of all, the car choice is seriously lacking for the hype they did. Most of them are modified version of the same basic car. Shape modeling was in fact pretty weak, and re-used for many cars. The interface was pretty annoying, with a menu tree that were very arcadish. To the real points. The realism. It was for me just a arcade game. No realism at all. And I had the Japanese version. Not the fake arcadish US version. The tracks aren't really long, and there is less than I thought. And what's up with only 5lap or less races ? You can't develop a tempo at all, or any rithym. The AI for me was "normal", but just wasn't realist. It was probably caused by the major point I will say now... ARCADE PHYSICS. Im sorry but think a little here. Create the same track in real-life, put a real racing car on it and just think about how it would be. Very different from the actual game. You can actually take those corners without the use of the brake, just scrub the speed with the controller (lucky I was using the Dual-Shock controllers). As for the graphics, I will say that anybody can great good looking graphics on a track when they are fantasy tracks. Just create anything from your mind. Not as difficult as recreating perfectly a real-life track into a virtual one. And Im sorry but the game engine wasn't the best I saw. It was good, similar to Screamers 2, but not really great. Be happy I only resumed my thoughts, it could had been 20kb long if I wanted ;) Finally... now that I saw Nascar Racing 3 in action... and that GPL is reality, and the NROS is actually working great... I won't even think of racing another time on the PSX. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

As an avid PC racer and part time PSX player - I'm sorry to have to say: Yep, GT is, overall, a far better racing sim than ANYTHING currently available on the PC. But I'm not here for that (c: All I wanted to know was - Is GT2 going to have damage modelling? It's the only thing letting GT down. -- Andre Queree (Mr Q) E-mail for genuine purposes (not spam) can be sent to: queree AT fl DOT net DOT au (just replace the obvious bits) *********************************************** >>http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html >>A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for >>sheer depth! >GT is good, but it's not THAT good. >Cheers! >John

> Gran Turismo for me was one of the most disappointing racing game ever. I > went into it with a open-mind about this title, but Im sorry I was just > dissapointed. <snipped lots of good points> I was also very dissapointed with GT. I got a PSX for my son and bought TOCA2 and GT plus a Mad Catz wheel/pedal combo. I found two major problems with both titles that rendered them unplayable: 1) The graphics on a PSX are apalling and these two titles offer some of the best graphics to be had on that platform. Once you've been racing on 1024x768 Voodoo2 SLI on a decent monitor getting 36 fps you just can't be doing with 512x384 at 25 fps max. Never mind PSX2 or whatever, you will never get better than that on a standard tv. Racing on a PSX is like driving with***glue smeared all over your visor. 2) The controlling devices on a PSX are dreadful. Our Mad Catz wheel just doesn't hold a candle to any of our PC wheels in depth of control and is nothing like driving a real car. The lack of control makes it impossible to judge whether GT's physics are any good. The Dual Shock and a V3 wheel that I've also tried are both worse than the Mad Catz. Racing on a PSX is like driving with boxing gloves on and smearing the wheel with Vaseline. Fortunately, TOCA2 is being released on the PC and looks quite promising. When and if GT gets a PC port, we can begin to evaluate it. Cheers, Paul

Ok, I guess different people have different opinions. For me the lack of damage modelling in GT was the killer. Racing in the game feels very unrealistic because I have no fear of damaging the car. That's why I keep deliberately hitting computer drivers in front of me in turns, and also using the walls to my advantage. For example in one of the tracks (I don't remember the name right now, I could check it in a minute) where there is a long straight after which you enter a tunnel (the left side of the tunnel is open ended), I always enter that tunnel at full speed and let my car hit the wall, and that slows the car down just enough for the upcoming twisty parts. I win time that way instead of trying to carefully slow the car down for the tunnel so that I don't hit the walls or other cars and damage my car. Also, the computer drivers in GT are stupid. But the game is still pretty interesting with its "buy and modify your own car" mentalitility.

>http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html >A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for >sheer depth! Har har, you are such a funny guy. I have GT on my Playstation, and I play it like any arcade driving game (in GT mode), not like racing simulators. To me it seems to be somewhere in the middleground of simulators and arcade driving games.

Depth??? Sheer Depth???? What LSD are you on man???? This is a FANTASY game with FAKE cars and FANTASY tracks. Where is there depth in that? Now GPL, NASCAR2, TOCA2 (soon on PC), Colin McRae Rally, Rally99 (when released), and the one I am drooling for - Pro Sportscar Racing - these DO have depth! And they deal with REAL cars, REAL tracks, and REAL drivers! GT is ok for a 25 cent arcade game, but I want REALISM.

> > http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html > > A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for > > sheer depth! > Depth??? Sheer Depth???? What LSD are you on man???? This is a FANTASY game > with FAKE cars and FANTASY tracks. You haven't actually played it have you. I hate it when people slag off games that they haven't actually played. GT has over 200 REAL cars. Viper GTS, Honda NSX, TVR's, Aston Martins etc etc I agree that it is a bit arcady and that the PC has GPL which is much better in terms of physics and depth (yes I do play that too) but GT in it's own right is easily the best racer on the PSX. The game DOES have depth in that there is pressure to win races to gain money to upgrade your car. You have to adapt to different driving styles as there are championships specifically for front wheel drive, rear wheel drive and 4 wheel drive and the cars handle noticibly differently. I'd much rather race the well made GT tracks than trot round some oval for 2 hours. Left, straight, left, straight, left, straight.......... You could start a whole new thread here but what, exactly, is depth? Kev

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> > Gran Turismo for me was one of the most disappointing racing game ever. I > > went into it with a open-mind about this title, but Im sorry I was just > > dissapointed. > <snipped lots of good points> > I was also very dissapointed with GT. I got a PSX for my son and bought TOCA2 > and GT plus a Mad Catz wheel/pedal combo. I found two major problems with both > titles that rendered them unplayable: > 1) The graphics on a PSX are apalling and these two titles offer some of the > best graphics to be had on that platform. Once you've been racing on 1024x768 > Voodoo2 SLI on a decent monitor getting 36 fps you just can't be doing with > 512x384 at 25 fps max. Never mind PSX2 or whatever, you will never get better > than that on a standard tv. Racing on a PSX is like driving with***glue > smeared all over your visor.

Oh come on. They're not appauling. GT has the best graphics of any PSX racing game. Of course they look bad compared to your several thousand quids worth of PC hardware but this is from a $100 grey box, unchanged since it was brought out in 1996. That was when a top range PC was a 133MHz. You can't run 1024x768 pin sharp 3d graphics on a 133 at 25fps. Likewise you can't expect a PSX to be able to do that either. GT runs at 30fps and 60fps in hires/hifi mode. I've never tried a mad catz wheel but the dual shock control is excellent (if you set the throttle to the right stick and steering on the left) You CAN feel the car on the limit of traction due to the excellent implementation of the 'shock' and the car is also very controllable. Little touches on the power and break traction and make you spin, likewise the spin can be controled with opposite lock in a much more realistic way than any other PSX racing game has shown. Yes, of course I own a PSX and I'll defend a great game if I think it's not being given a fair go but I also play GPL and GP2 on a pc and enjoy them aswell. You have a right to your opinion but, on the subject of GT having wooly controls and ***graphics, you're very much in the minority. Kev

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>As an avid PC racer and part time PSX player - I'm sorry to have to say: >Yep, GT is, overall, a far better racing sim than ANYTHING currently >available on the PC. >But I'm not here for that (c: All I wanted to know was - Is GT2 going to >have damage modelling? It's the only thing letting GT down. >-- >Andre Queree (Mr Q) >E-mail for genuine purposes (not spam) can be sent to: >queree AT fl DOT net DOT au >(just replace the obvious bits) >*********************************************** >>>http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html >>>A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for >>>sheer depth! >>GT is good, but it's not THAT good. >>Cheers! >>John

I'm a fanatic racing 'simulation' player. For me, nothing is more fun than tweaking the setups in CART Precision Racing, or Nascar Racing, or Indycar Racing, or even Grand Prix Legends, which is the master of all racing games. But I don't think that Gran Turismo was supposed to be a simulator. It's was quite simply an arcade game - hop in, turn on the engine, get going... The graphics in Grand Turismo certainly did show a vast improvement over any other Playstation game, and these days you really can't expect them to be anywhere near as good as they would be on a quality PC, especially with 3D support, like the Voodoo II, or even SLI. But that's not what the Playstation is for. It's excellent for arcade games, not simulations. Some of the things however which were a disapointment was the lack of damage effects, or even dirt when you drove on the grass, and the AI wasn't up to much. I also can't stand the fact that you had to pass these licenses to get new cars and tracks. Games ALWAYS lose points, in my mind, when they do that. I like to be able to choose which tracks, which car, which setups, which colours, etc, without having to do anything expect start the game. It's fine to add hidden cheats, like bonus rounds, after lets say winning the championship, but nothing else. Also, the fact that there were no cheats available, unless you had an add-on pack (I forget the name) was a MAJOR bummer, and I'm sure it annoyed a lot of people, not just myself. I'd say that at the current time the best racing game on the Playstation is Collin McRae Rally, and the worst is certainly Formula 1 98. And as for the PC, it rules so high up on the scheme of things that it can't get much higher... And when you look at games like Grand Prix Legends and compare it to games we had just five, ten years ago, I'm left speechless! Adam

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:50:34 +0000, Kevin Clark >You haven't actually played it have you. I hate it when people slag off >games that they haven't actually played. It must be almost as bad as slagging off someone when you don't even know if they've played it or not. Pot? Kettle? Black? Cheers! John

Kevin Clark wrote You have just said what I wanted you to say. The first poster in this thread said that no PC game could match Gran Turismo in all aspects ;-) -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

OK. Fair point John but he started off by saying it didn't contain any REAL cars which is precisely what it DOES contain. Therefore it's a fair guess that he hasn't played it, yes? Kev

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> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:50:34 +0000, Kevin Clark > >You haven't actually played it have you. I hate it when people slag off > >games that they haven't actually played. > It must be almost as bad as slagging off someone when you don't even > know if they've played it or not. > Pot? Kettle? Black? > Cheers! > John

>Oh come on. They're not appauling. GT has the best graphics of any PSX >racing game. That isn't saying much though, GT graphics still are low res mess. To me they don't look that different to Ridge Racer, if you compare the difference to hires PC driving games. Excuse me? I have never seen my GT running anywhere even near 50 fps (I have PAL version, so the max it could run anyway is 50 fps). I think it runs at 25 fps and less all the time, most of the time less. Far from silky smooth (but then not very jerky either). Funny, I think it blows, at least for GT. It is far too imprecise. I would love to use a full size analog stick with GT instead for the added accuracy, maybe one day I will buy such device for PSX. Yeah, it is kinda neat how the controller vibrates every now and then, but come on, it isn't that good. Yes, but that is mostly just due to the lack of driving sims for PSX. I guess I belong into that minority too. If the majority really thinks GT has great graphics and controls (with dualshock), then the majority just doesn't seem to know better, they haven't seen and felt better racing sims (on e.g. PC).

>OK. Fair point John but he started off by saying it didn't contain any >REAL cars which is precisely what it DOES contain. Therefore it's a fair I think he said "FAKE cars". Maybe he meant the way how some of the cars go much faster (per hp) than they would in real life? That is fake, I guess.

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:01:38 +0000, Kevin Clark >OK. Fair point John but he started off by saying it didn't contain any >REAL cars which is precisely what it DOES contain. Therefore it's a fair >guess that he hasn't played it, yes? I must admit that one confused me a bit - I thought GT was purely based around "real" cars, so to hear there was nothing real in it seemed, well, misguided! Cheers! John

couldnt said it better myself i thought i was the only one having of those gamepads a great shame for a good game cu

> Oh come on. They're not appauling. GT has the best graphics of any PSX > racing game. I think you'll find that I said this - "....these two titles offer some of the best graphics to be had on that platform [PSX]". But yes, that is appalling, because PSX graphics are equivalent to PC graphics of 3-5 years ago (that's a very long time in the computer world). I get better graphics on a 133MHz I own. I don't expect it to - that's the problem. Don't think so. Maybe in the States but certainly not of PAL version sold over here. The average tv can't provide the required Hertz. Must confess, I never saw Michael Schumaker or Jeff Gordon power their vehicles through a corner using a half inch vibrating *** mushroom - I can't have been keeping up with the leading edge of racing technology. That just about sums it up - little touches on the power (and the steering) - you can't do things in gradually increasing or decreasing graceful arcs because you've only got a few millimeters of travel. I never criticised GT (or TOCA2 for that matter) - just the platform. At 99.00 what could you expect - you get what you pay for (though the titles cost 50% more than pc ones - that wouldn't be Sony raking in a percentage for something they didn't lift a finger for). Am I? I am genuinely surprised - how can anyone play the same game on both platform and not reach this conclusion? I guess to someone who operates a moustachioed Italian or a cartoon hedgehog with an up or down arrow, it may seem obvious that you would drive a car in the same way. Every kid I've ever seen pick up a dual shock for the first time turns it like a wheel out of pure instinct. Sure, a PSX is an affordable way to play computer games and GT is a fun game, but, hey, lets not pretend any more than that until it gets a pc port. Cheers, Paul

Ok Kevin, maybe I should rephrase my comments. It just irks me to no end when some folks try to say GT is THE BEST Racing Game ever, or specially when they try to pass it off as a sim. Your comment about BEST on a PSX is more correct. Now concerning depth, I mean sure it has kind of a campaign mode, but it is not based on any real race or racing season/series (like GPL, TOCA, F1RS, GP2, etc), nor is any track on it a real circuit. And it may have 200 cars, but face it, most of them are Japanese Imports and not the fine tuned Euro machinery. This game CAN compete with NFS or Test Drive, but can not compare to racing sims, and specially Pro Sportscar Racing (IF it is as good as it looks so far). And I have tried GT a number of times, but I just can't get that arcade coin-op feeling out of my head while I play it, and I said PLAY it. Makes me want to look for the coin/token slot <G>. Now TOCA2 or Viper Racing still has some problems, but after years of real racing, I feel more at home in TOCA2 or Viper than I do in GT. Oh, but I sure DO agree with your comments about going around in circles! I am a road racer, and will remain a road racer! But sadly, no matter HOW real a PC sim gets, it still will never replace the rush of flying down the straight at Road America heading down towards Turn 5 at top end! Specially in a 79 RX7 spewing flames out the 5" Suppertapp <G>. Hell, I even ran out of revs in 5th gear there! > > > http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html > > > A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for > > > sheer depth! > > Depth??? Sheer Depth???? What LSD are you on man???? This is a FANTASY game

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> > with FAKE cars and FANTASY tracks. > You haven't actually played it have you. I hate it when people slag off > games that they haven't actually played. > GT has over 200 REAL cars. Viper GTS, Honda NSX, TVR's, Aston Martins > etc etc I agree that it is a bit arcady and that the PC has GPL which is > much better in terms of physics and depth (yes I do play that too) but > GT in it's own right is easily the best racer on the PSX. The game DOES > have depth in that there is pressure to win races to gain money to > upgrade your car. You have to adapt to different driving styles as there > are championships specifically for front wheel drive, rear wheel drive > and 4 wheel drive and the cars handle noticibly differently. I'd much > rather race the well made GT tracks than trot round some oval for 2 > hours. Left, straight, left, straight, left, straight.......... > You could start a whole new thread here but what, exactly, is depth? > Kev

Ok, they are based on real cars, but mainly street cars. But everything else is fantasy in this game. No matter how good the graphics are, or the cars, I still can't help looking for the coin/token slot. When you drive in GPL, F1RS, TOCA 1&2 - you know it is near real. For example, after playing TOCA 1&2, when I watch the BTCC video tapes (from Duke Video), I actually can tell where the cars are on the track because the game tracks are pretty darn accurate. And as I have raced at Road America in the past, when playing Cart Racing, I know exactly where I am on the track, almost down to where my favorite BRAT (Bratwurst) Food Stand was! Hmmm, NOW I am hungry!!!!! <G> And now I wish there was a sim that included Riverside - I really miss that track :(

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> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:01:38 +0000, Kevin Clark > >OK. Fair point John but he started off by saying it didn't contain any > >REAL cars which is precisely what it DOES contain. Therefore it's a fair > >guess that he hasn't played it, yes? > I must admit that one confused me a bit - I thought GT was purely > based around "real" cars, so to hear there was nothing real in it > seemed, well, misguided! > Cheers! > John

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> > I've never tried a mad catz wheel but the dual shock control is > > excellent (if you set the throttle to the right stick and steering on > > the left) You CAN feel the car on the limit of traction due to the > > excellent implementation of the 'shock' and the car is also very > > controllable. > Must confess, I never saw Michael Schumaker or Jeff Gordon power their vehicles > through a corner using a half inch vibrating *** mushroom - I can't have been > keeping up with the leading edge of racing technology.

But you can also play GPL and ICR etc with a keyboard (I know, I've tried and it's fine). It doesn't necessarily make them any less immersive. You could easily say that race cars don't have a nice comfy sofa and a thin plastic steering wheel. How far do you want to go with this? Yes you can because the sticks are analogue controllers. GT's not out on the pc...... Don't play those games, I'm 29 :) I agree, it's a game, and a good one at that, I'm just saying that I think you're being a little harsh in comparing it to GPL and the like in terms of physics and graphics. The pc is a great platform for sims. The average age of owners/users is quite high and the complexity of the games (both driving and flying) reflects that but I and many other PSX owners think that GT is easily the best racer on that platform and is very realistic. The numerous setting on the cars have realistic effects on the handling/performance and as such doesn't that make it a sim? I'm interested in something. Do you think TOCA or GT has the better physics model? Kev Defending to the end :)

> Ok Kevin, maybe I should rephrase my comments. It just irks me to no end > when some folks try to say GT is THE BEST Racing Game ever, or specially > when they try to pass it off as a sim. Your comment about BEST on a PSX is > more correct. We agree on something. Hurrah :) I'll be the first to admit is not the best ever on all platforms. GPL does it for me in that respect. What constitues a sim though? What is it about the game that most definately NOT simulation (apart from the lack of damage which was a license agreement with the manufacturers). There are car settings for dampers, spring rates, camber, gearing, downforce and many others that all affect the handling realistically. OK the tracks aren't REAL but they look real as far as the graphics can go and give a good sense of speed. I could go on about other aspects but I'm interested in the sim answer bit. Yes but surely you've got to compare like with like. TOCA etc are proper racing series. GT is just real road cars racing round a track (which is what Viper is isn't it? This group seems to love that but it's no different to GT....). Just because it's not based on a real championship that means it has no depth of gameplay? Kev

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> And I have tried GT a number of times, but I just can't get that arcade > coin-op feeling out of my head while I play it, and I said PLAY it. Makes me > want to look for the coin/token slot <G>. Now TOCA2 or Viper Racing still > has some problems, but after years of real racing, I feel more at home in > TOCA2 or Viper than I do in GT. > Oh, but I sure DO agree with your comments about going around in circles! I > am a road racer, and will remain a road racer! But sadly, no matter HOW real > a PC sim gets, it still will never replace the rush of flying down the > straight at Road America heading down towards Turn 5 at top end! Specially > in a 79 RX7 spewing flames out the 5" Suppertapp <G>. Hell, I even ran out > of revs in 5th gear there! > > > > http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html > > > > A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT > for > > > > sheer depth! > > > Depth??? Sheer Depth???? What LSD are you on man???? This is a FANTASY > game > > > with FAKE cars and FANTASY tracks. > > You haven't actually played it have you. I hate it when people slag off > > games that they haven't actually played. > > GT has over 200 REAL cars. Viper GTS, Honda NSX, TVR's, Aston Martins > > etc etc I agree that it is a bit arcady and that the PC has GPL which is > > much better in terms of physics and depth (yes I do play that too) but > > GT in it's own right is easily the best racer on the PSX. The game DOES > > have depth in that there is pressure to win races to gain money to > > upgrade your car. You have to adapt to different driving styles as there > > are championships specifically for front wheel drive, rear wheel drive > > and 4 wheel drive and the cars handle noticibly differently. I'd much > > rather race the well made GT tracks than trot round some oval for 2 > > hours. Left, straight, left, straight, left, straight.......... > > You could start a whole new thread here but what, exactly, is depth? > > Kev

Kevin Clark > > Ok Kevin, maybe I should rephrase my comments. It just irks me to no end > > when some folks try to say GT is THE BEST Racing Game ever, or specially > > when they try to pass it off as a sim. Your comment about BEST on a PSX is

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> > more correct. > We agree on something. Hurrah :) > I'll be the first to admit is not the best ever on all platforms. GPL > does it for me in that respect. > What constitues a sim though? What is it about the game that most > definately NOT simulation (apart from the lack of damage which was a > license agreement with the manufacturers). There are car settings for > dampers, spring rates, camber, gearing, downforce and many others that > all affect the handling realistically. OK the tracks aren't REAL but > they look real as far as the graphics can go and give a good sense of > speed. I could go on about other aspects but I'm interested in the sim > answer bit.

Ok, my definition of a sim is a game that makes me feel I am really there, doing it. The number of times I've played GT, I just don't feel it. The screen does not give me the impression I am there doing it, and driving the cars do not either. But then GPL is a wee bit overboard in this sense. I think it goes too far the other way, but then as I am too young to have driven those cars (started racing in 1974), I can only base this on what I drove: Spits, GT6, Lotus Europa, Eng Ford Cortina, RX7, CRX Si, but the Europa WAS quite near a formula car with a full body (and mid engined too) <G>, and it was never that twitchy. So for me, so far, TOCA2 gives me the best visual perception of being back on the track, and the feeling like I am driving a real race car. Its not perfect (AI drivers STILL hold better in turns then they should), but I sure get that ol' feeling when driving in them (as well as the ol' andreno rush). For driving plain street cars, Viper has some good points to it over GT as well, but I am not quite sold on its shifting and torque curve properties. We'd need a real Viper Driver's opinion on that, but I feel it drops off the torque too fast. But it does give a good impression of struggling with a beast of a car (Viper or C5 Vette) going through turns quite fast. Right now I have an Audi A4, but I want to get that new BMW "M" Coupe (the 2 setae based on the ZM Roadster). I have test driven it a number of times, as well as driven a buddy's M3, and these handle way better in REAL life than the cars in VIPER. They both just about go where you point them, and very accurately too! And both cars, even in unmodified street garb, handle way better than most of these PC/PSX games make cars out to handle. But again, the game in my view that comes closest to this is TOCA2 , and next is Viper.

As a long time Playstation owner and a new PC owner ( I have had a PC for a long time, just never played games on it.) , I just bought a 450 MHz, 128 MB, 16M RIVA TNT... machine just for playing games. I must admit the graphics are nice and the game play is neat. But I still think that after 2 weeks at GPL, GT is a better game over-all. Over all meaning as a long term game to have and enjoy. Sure GPL is a pretty good 'sim' and GT is more game the sim, but GT is fun, and in depth. It took me a month to complete the game, and it wasn't frustrating, just a lot of stuff to try (and for those of us into specializing the cars represented in the game, a little fantasy shopping). I still go back and play, and that makes it a worthwhile game (considering i have a pile of games that are completed and I wouldn't play again.) to me. Also, GT never crashes in the middle of the game, making you reboot and hope that it saved your last set of changes to the car. It doesn't need specific drivers for what ever hardware you have. And I don't have to go out and spend $200 for some sort of feedback in the controls. My PC cost me $2000 plus $49 for GPL and $40 for a controller. My Playstation (in today's terms) $129 plus $40 for GT (it comes with a controller). Do the math.... in monetary terms I think GT comes out in the fun per dollar aspect. just my opinion, M

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>>http://www.digitalsports.com/mine/dsports/news/gran_turismo2.html >>A year later, and there's still nothing on the PC that can match GT for >>sheer depth! >GT is good, but it's not THAT good. >Cheers! >John

> But you can also play GPL and ICR etc with a keyboard You can but I don't and won't. I'd rather do something else. Let's agree to differ. My TSW is not a thin plastic wheel and I don't race from a sofa - that'll be the PSX you're thinking of.:-) Not very far :-) I know - my point was it's hard to be smooth with "a few millimeters of travel". Obviously, you've got the hang of it but I can't be bothered and am not tempted because I can just power up Big Bertha here and use a bolted down steering wheel with 11 inch diameter and 330 degrees of travel and pedals with 2 inches of travel. Bit more like a real car, don't you think? I know - I thought we both understood that. By kids, I meant my kids and their friends. They are 4 and 7. That don't actually play Sonic or Super Mario but the point is the same. I was not accusing you of being a kid - for starters I've never seen you, so I couldn't have seen you pick up a dual shock. I'm not comparing GT with GPL, I'm comparing PSX with PC and saying that PSX is not a platform on which you can run a simulation. An F1 Ferrari is a hell of a car but you can't judge it's performance by driving it in my small garden. Exactly. I agree. I can't tell. That and the settings having the correct effect on the car and the car handling ok etc etc ***e. I haven't played GT enough to say - it seems quite good but, as I said before, it's really hard to evaluate it on the PSX with the available controllers, the fps and the resolution. TOCA2 seems pretty good too a lot better than TOCA1 (though Fran?ois would not agree). However I have had the advantage of playing TOCA2 demo on a PII 400MHz with SLI and a TSW Sport so GT doesn't really stand a chance!!! Why don't Sony stop money-grubbing and let the developers (now a separate company) port it to the PC? Apparently it was written in a way that would facilitate an easy port. Once again, as so often, Sony are the villians of the piece. (One of my hate companies along with Microsoft, Intel, News Inernational, all UK supermarkets and worst of all, Monsanto). Cheers, Paul

> As a long time Playstation owner and a new PC owner ( I have had a PC > for a long time, just never played games on it.) , I just bought a 450 > MHz, 128 MB, 16M RIVA TNT... machine just for playing games. I must > admit the graphics are nice and the game play is neat. But I still The graphics are just nice compared to the Playstation? You better go have your eyes checked... Oh boy, so you either have a sim or fun. Sorry, lots of people have lots of fun with sims like GPL. Depth? I'll be playing GPL for at least another year and will definitly NOT complete (?) it by then. GPL is frustrating if you need to make first spot in every race. That's possible in arcade racers, not in sims...well, you could slow down the AI to a crawl ;^) GPL never crashed on my system, except that freeze on startup which was easily fixed. FF is a feature. You don't like it, you don't buy it. It's that easy! No sim REQUIRES an FF wheel. If all you do with your PC is games, and only arcade games, surely the Playstation is the way to go. But if you do <long list of nice things to do> with your PC as well, the picture is quite different. same here l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:40:45 +0100, Ronald Stoehr

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>> My PC cost me $2000 plus $49 for GPL and $40 for a controller. >> My Playstation (in today's terms) $129 plus $40 for GT (it comes with >> a controller). Do the math.... in monetary terms I think GT comes out >> in the fun per dollar aspect. >If all you do with your PC is games, and only arcade games, surely the >Playstation is the way to go. But if you do <long list of nice things >to do> with your PC as well, the picture is quite different.

On top of that, I played GP2 for two years, GPL already for something similar and NASCAR2 about the same. I played NFS3 for about a week, maybe two at the top. If you factor in that a sim captures your attention for two years at a total cost of $2,089, a console will require $129 + $40 x 52 = $2,209. Wow, my PC is cheaper than a console for the same level of entertainment! John PS - If we're talking about "today's terms" pricing for the console then like with like should apply for the PC - it's an unusual PC that costs $2k these days.

What backwards school did you not graduate from. According to your formula you would buy a new Playstation and game every week. It should be (129+40)/52= 3.25. This doesn't take in account that fact that you can rent games for a buck a day in most places. If you played GPL for a year (1700+40+40)/52 = 32.23 per week that you played. I feel for you parents that paid for your education. In today's money a full top of the line computer will still cost you $2000. Hop on the web and check out Dell.com or any other manufacturer. I swear you people are way too serious about this shit. You forget its just a game, and its just one person's opinion. You need to get uo from the computer and go out and play with the other kids for a while.

Everyone Duck!!! :) -Larry > I must > admit the graphics are nice and the game play is neat. But I still > think that after 2 weeks at GPL, GT is a better game over-all.

> I feel for > you parents that paid for your education. Don't you mean "I feel for your parents WHO paid for your education". Sorry, couldn't help pick up on this one with the inherent contradiction. :-) You should shop around a bit. You can get a machine pretty close to top of the range that will play GPL at 36 fps for half this. Try a 400MHz Celeron (*** cheap in the current price war), dual Voodoo2 etc. For an extra few quid you can get a modem and play online. Oooo, temper, temper. Cheers, Paul

> GPL never crashed on my system, except that freeze on startup which was > easily fixed. I get lock up at the startup screen occasionally. How do you fix it? I have to kill GPL and start it up again and sometimes I have to reboot. I'd love to know the answer to this. Cheers, Paul

snip > I swear you people are way too serious about this shit. You forget its > just a game, and its just one person's opinion. You need to get uo > from the computer and go out and play with the other kids for a while. Yeah, that's the exact line I always tell people when they tell me about their hobby, e.g. stamp collecting, watching soccer matches, whatever. "Hey, you take that serious? Get a life!" End of discussion. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>What backwards school did you not graduate from. According to your >formula you would buy a new Playstation and game every week. It should >be (129+40)/52= 3.25. This doesn't take in account that fact that you >can rent games for a buck a day in most places. If you played GPL for >a year (1700+40+40)/52 = 32.23 per week that you played. I feel for >you parents that paid for your education. Hehe Marvin, guess you didn't get it. Go to the part of 2 weeks attention span. Then do the math again, it will make sense. Remco

Anyone here ever do Radio Controlled Helicopters? Folks, this ain't _squat_ compared to that hobby :) -Larry

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> snip > > I swear you people are way too serious about this shit. You forget its > > just a game, and its just one person's opinion. You need to get uo > > from the computer and go out and play with the other kids for a while. > Yeah, that's the exact line I always tell people when they tell me about > their hobby, e.g. stamp collecting, watching soccer matches, whatever. > "Hey, you take that serious? Get a life!" End of discussion. > l8er > ronny > -- > How to get rid of censorship in German game releases > <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> Anyone here ever do Radio Controlled Helicopters? > Folks, this ain't _squat_ compared to that hobby :) I've watched those things - they look like flying rotary mowers, without the safety casing - I wouldn't like to take my kids into the park if someone were flying one of those, Cheers, Paul

> > GPL never crashed on my system, except that freeze on startup which was > > easily fixed. > I get lock up at the startup screen occasionally. How do you fix it? I have > to kill GPL and start it up again and sometimes I have to reboot. I'd love > to know the answer to this. Although I'm now reading news offline (thanks, Linus! ;^) I'm still in the <type replys quick> mode... The freeze I experienced was NOT fixed easily. After several reboots I thought: Hmm, this thing always jumps to the joystick calibration and the MOUSE don't move no more. I removed the Logitech MouseWare drivers and, voila, no freeze anymore. So the Glide drivers were not the problem like for some others, it was those damn rodent drivers... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Radio Controlled Helicopters are, without a doubt, one of the most dangerous hobbies one can undertake. However, you will also find RC Helicopter builders/flyers some of the most safety concious people you will ever meet. I have never met one yet that did not fully understand what they were involved in, the dangers involved, and the safety proceedures to be adheered to. Be stupid, and you will be immediately kicked off the flying field. There is zero acceptance of idiocy in that hobby at established flying sites. These are incredibly difficult machines to fly, and like GPL, you develop a great sense of accomplishment and pride when you get good at it. It is not a hobby for the weak of heart or weak of dollar. They are expensive, and you _will_ break them and have to rebuild them. Nothing beats the satisfaction gained after mastering the Nose-In Hover, the most difficult manuever there is in RC flying :) -Larry > I've watched those things - they look like flying rotary mowers, without the > safety casing - I wouldn't like to take my kids into the park if someone were > flying one of those, > Cheers, > Paul

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>> Anyone here ever do Radio Controlled Helicopters? >> Folks, this ain't _squat_ compared to that hobby :) >I've watched those things - they look like flying rotary mowers, without the >safety casing - I wouldn't like to take my kids into the park if someone were >flying one of those, >Cheers, >Paul

Look out for RC Stunt Copter http://www.stuntcopter.com By Shiny. Dave Perry (the creative 'genius' behind Shiny) is something of a freak on RC Copters, and has has put this game together for PSX. (the dual shock/analog controllers are apparently perfectly close to real RC Controls...) I played it at ECTS last year... it's well er.... Challenging 8) Z.

Then it's realistic :) -Larry > I played it at ECTS last year... it's well er.... Challenging 8)

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>Then it's realistic :) >-Larry >> I played it at ECTS last year... it's well er.... Challenging 8)

Well, strangely enough in the demo... you have to hit a target... on the side of a barn. hehe Well, they say it can;t be hard to hit the side of a barn... but well :P it seems small, quick corrections are the way to fly the thing, but i recommend it without hesitation. Z.

Zonker wrote this. Honest guv!

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>>Then it's realistic :) >>-Larry >>> I played it at ECTS last year... it's well er.... Challenging 8) >Well, strangely enough in the demo... you have to hit a target... on the side >of a barn. >hehe >Well, they say it can;t be hard to hit the side of a barn... but well :P >it seems small, quick corrections are the way to fly the thing, but i >recommend it without hesitation.

Slightly safer and cheaper than the real thing as well. I'm looking forward immensely to this. -- ********************************************************************** * Currently playing: PSX: Pro Pinball: Big Race USA, N64: Zelda * **********************************************************************

I hit the back window of a Camper Shell once :) -Larry

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> Well, strangely enough in the demo... you have to hit a target... on the side > of a barn. > hehe > Well, they say it can;t be hard to hit the side of a barn... but well :P > it seems small, quick corrections are the way to fly the thing, but i > recommend it without hesitation. > Z.