GPL - Independent braking/throttle

I've just put in a switch to enable me to change between indepedent and combined braking-throttle on my TSW Sport. It works fine. The only thing that bothers me is braking in GPL - it is much easier to lock up the brakes with separate brakes/gas. I tested the new configuration at Monza and struggled to get in the 1:29s (just once) and have never been in the gravel at Parabolica so many times. I flicked my brand new silver switch back to combined and recalibrated. The results were instantaneous steady 1:29s from lap 3 on and no locking brakes and no gravel at Parabolica. I did some further tests and can report that in separate mode the brakes are very much more sensitive. When there is no throttle the brakes should work the same whether you have an independent or a combined configuration, but I can definitively say that this is not the case. Has anyone else noticed this? Do I need to make any setup changes to adjust to independent? Is trail braking worth the loss of sensitivity? Cheers, Paul

This is a guess at best, but I suspect that "slight' foot pressure on the throttle is the difference when using combined axes. If you calibrate using the full travel of your pedals, the weight of your feet alone will affect the readings from your pedals. What I do is to hold down slightly on the pedals before clicking "ok" when calibrating, giving them a small deadzone. This eliminates the problem for me. How big a deadzone you prefer will depend on your pedal tension, foot weight, etc.. Just experiment and find what works for you. I've settled on a minimum reading of .110 for brake and .230 for throttle using CH pedals. Give it a try and see if it solves your problem. I think you'll find using separate axes gives you more flexibilty in driving style once you get used to it. Cheers, Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

I would agree with Steve. I realized recently that my braking (with single axis pedals) was reduced by my right foot resting on the accelerator - I now lift my right foot and lock the wheels easily. I am interested to know what people think about dual axis pedals - do they make a big difference and why?

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>I've just put in a switch to enable me to change between indepedent and >combined braking-throttle on my TSW Sport. It works fine. The only thing >that bothers me is braking in GPL - it is much easier to lock up the >brakes with separate brakes/gas. I tested the new configuration at Monza >and struggled to get in the 1:29s (just once) and have never been in the >gravel at Parabolica so many times. I flicked my brand new silver switch >back to combined and recalibrated. The results were instantaneous steady >1:29s from lap 3 on and no locking brakes and no gravel at Parabolica. I >did some further tests and can report that in separate mode the brakes >are very much more sensitive. When there is no throttle the brakes >should work the same whether you have an independent or a combined >configuration, but I can definitively say that this is not the case. >Has anyone else noticed this? Do I need to make any setup changes to >adjust to independent? Is trail braking worth the loss of sensitivity? >Cheers, >Paul

Here's a paste on the subject from an old email of mine. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, particularly in GPL. The GPL physics model handles weight transfer among the wheels better than any other sim, but in doing requires more from the driver. Under hard trail-braking for instance, it can be tough to keep the car in line as the rears get unloaded and tend to lock and slide. You could just go for more front brake bias in the setup, but that would foul up your turn-in. Instead, you can use the throttle to keep the car aimed under braking. A touch of throttle reduces the braking effect somewhat at the rear wheels, which being so lightly loaded don't contribute a lot to your actual stopping power anyway. This keeps the rears turning, and thus tracking. And since you only have to use it on demand, you can benefit from a more balanced brake bias everywhere else. Conversely, you can use the brakes to keep the car in line under acceleration. Say you're accelerating out of a fast turn and the rear end starts to let go. You could chop the throttle, but that would unload the rear tires and you'd probably spin, or at least lose momentum. A bit of brake while maintaining your throttle will usually get the tires hooked up and let you keep accelerating. In fact, McLaren fitted an extra brake pedal this past season in their F1 cars (operating rear brakes only) for just this purpose, as electronic traction control is a no-no these days. In the end, it works like manually-operated rear-wheel ABS and traction control. It does help in other sims, but it's almost a necessity in GPL. It takes a bit of practice at first, but becomes second-nature once you see how useful it is. Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

Great explanation, Steve!

I don't have split axis pedals and have found an estra clutch will help cure the independent locking that can occur when trail braking. Also I as in all trailbraking I am reducing the amount of pressure on the pedal as I turn which also helps. You can trail brake without spilt axis pedals. Well droping off the gas completely us always a no no. When the rear end start to break away, I will steer with it and also if it feels like the rear is gonna go away bigtime I start to slowly modulate the throttle to control the slide. Braking here really does the same thing since I am not unloading the rear tires. Also if you are beyond the max slip angles of the tires is the rear end loaded amymore?. The third pedal on the Formula 1McLaren I think was more to get car to rotate better into corner, not as ABS or traction control. the driver would put more bias to inner rear brake to help car rotate toaward Apex. This also can be done in a rear car with more rearward brake bias, but independent bias adjustment at each rear wheel would probly work the best. -- David Robinson Egan's Law The Pace car will always go 2 MPH slower then your race car idles in first gear.

Yes, you certainly can trail-brake with combined axis pedals, and more clutches will help braking considerably, as documented by Steve Smith in the GPL strategy guide. However, using extra clutches sometimes hampers the handling elsewhere, particularly on twisty courses. I guess my point was that split axis pedals give you more flexiblity in driving and setup; and I personally need all the help I can get! With luck, a bit of brake early on will keep you from visiting the limits of your slip angles to begin with. This IS a less called-for technique away from ovals, though. That's what McLaren told everyone after all their competitors protested that they were employing traction control. The published photos of the cars accelerating OUT of corners with their rear discs glowing red suggested otherwise. :-) Cheers, Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

Yes the extra clutches are a problem on some courses. Infact I just live without em when i wnat car to oversteer at turnin more then with trailbraking. Zandvoort and Mosport were understeer heaven till I got rid of a few clutches due to the rear tires being to tightly locked together, and driving the car straight ( funny deal when ever I go over 90 lbs. ft. on my solo ll cars diff it does same thing.). I am still a bit slow on those courses. I think proper throttle modulation is way I will stick with it. In my Solo ll I need to practise since that is one of my faults/ Well I read it was due to the car having a rear steering device. -- David Robinson Egan's Law The Pace car will always go 2 MPH slower then your race car idles in first gear.

Hi Phil, I don't know what car your driving, but the groove you drive has a big influence on the lap time. I can get 1:25.xx with the Eagle and Brabham and I don't have a split axis controller and don't trail brake. Check out my setups and replays at my site -- check the sig for the URL. Jason.

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> Yeah....it explains why I'm stuck at this time at Zandy whilst others > are pulling 1.24s. > -- > #33 > Zandvoort > 1.28.56 > >Great explanation, Steve!

-------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Oh, I dunno. Could be other things. I'm on separate axis pedals and I still haven't gone under1:26. Maybe I explain better than I drive. But I'll have to revisit Zandvoort now in my shiny new 450 Celery-powered Lotus, as my old P200 was a bit lacking in the snap department. My first outing at the 'Ring with the new CPU, I dropped my PR from 8:23 to 8:17. The corners I'd thought were particularly tricky weren't really; brief (and slight-no lower than 28) drops in framerate had just made them appear to be. So there's more to the story than pedals.....FPS really does rule in GPL. Still, I can't imagine getting on terms with the really fast guys, no matter how many mhz or pedal axes I have. I wonder if I can get an upgrade bundle for my driving skill. :-) Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

Yeah....it explains why I'm stuck at this time at Zandy whilst others are pulling 1.24s. -- #33 Zandvoort 1.28.56 >Great explanation, Steve!

. If ya find it gimme the stores name and address, My real racing seasons starts in March and I can use all the help I can get. -- David Robinson Egan's Law The Pace car will always go 2 MPH slower then your race car idles in first gear.

URL. D'OH!!!!....every time I find an excuse....|o) Thanks, I'll look at your site. -- #33 Zandvoort 1.28.56

: I wonder if I can get an upgrade bundle for my driving skill. :-) (Grin) If you spot it then I could use one as well. What I found was that it's the curves in the track that are the problem. For example at the Glen which has a lot of curves, I'm 4-5 seconds off the pace at the "puny" skill level. At Monza which has fewer, I'm 1-2 seconds off the pace. What we really need is a "curve free" track. Something like a drag strip only longer and wider. If someone could design one of those for GPL I'm pretty sure that I could compete with the best of them (except for at starts and when changing gear). -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Sounds like you need Avus, an old track in Berlin. They took 5.5 miles of Autobahn and built loops at each end yielding a dogbone with very small ends about 12 miles per lap! Last Grand Prix was in '59, but by that time they had shortened it to about 4 miles. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

That and the fact that you are spending too much time on your art collection again :-) Mark .....The older I get the faster I used to be .....

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>Yeah....it explains why I'm stuck at this time at Zandy whilst others >are pulling 1.24s. >-- >#33 >Zandvoort >1.28.56 >>Great explanation, Steve!

Only if it is cheap and sworded lol Mark .....The older I get the faster I used to be .....

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>Hitman Seery...|o) Psssst....pssssst.....wanna buy some art...? >-- >#33 >Zandvoort >1.28.56 >>That and the fact that you are spending too much time on your art >collection >>again :-)

Hitman Seery...|o) Psssst....pssssst.....wanna buy some art...? -- #33 Zandvoort 1.28.56 >That and the fact that you are spending too much time on your art collection >again :-)