An ethical Auto Driving Simulator simular to Microsoft's FS2004

Anyone familiar with a program for the PC that teaches automobile driving skills? Something simular to Microsoft's Flight Simulator 2004 for the plane? -- L. James ----------------------- L. D. James [email hidden] www.apollo3.com/~ljames

"L. D. James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Anyone familiar with a program for the PC that teaches automobile > driving skills? Something simular to Microsoft's Flight Simulator 2004for > the plane? > http://www.3d-fahrschule.de/ A demo is available

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:53:17 -0500, "L. D. James" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Anyone familiar with a program for the PC that teaches automobile >driving skills? Something simular to Microsoft's Flight Simulator 2004 for >the plane? >As I answered to a similar post some time ago:

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> There's also a European (well, German, but they have versions in several > languages, it seems) program called "3D-Fahrschule", or "3D Driving-School", > which has had 2 versions at least. I've tried the demos, and it is very good. > > http://www.3d-fahrschule.de/uk_index.htm > > Update: I just noticed they've just released their version 3.0... > http://www.3d-fahrschule.de/uk_shop.htm

-- __________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke \_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru _H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com '-_____|( remove the "no_me_j." and "sons.of." parts before replying

That's all well and good for those in Europe. But what about us poor Americans?? Surely if our teenagers started using that program they would get confused even MORE! "What do you mean Daddy, drive on the right side of the road? I thought it was the LEFT side?"

Excuse me ?! ;-) There's Europe (Right side) and there's the UK (left) I repeat : Only the UK-guys drive left... and the aussies too... I guess... "DieHarder" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CLXPb.45161$[email hidden]... > That's all well and good for those in Europe. But what about us poor > Americans?? Surely if our teenagers started using that program they would > get confused even MORE! > > "What do you mean Daddy, drive on the right side of the road? I thoughtit > was the LEFT side?" > >

LoOZR37 wrote: > > Excuse me ?! ;-) > There's Europe (Right side) and there's the UK (left) > I repeat : Only the UK-guys drive left... and the aussies too... I guess... There's Europe, right side, and there's UK, wrong side, or to quote a famous headline from a British newspaper, "Fog in the channel, continent isolated", says it all doesn't it :-D Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" wrote: > > Excuse me ?! ;-) > > There's Europe (Right side) and there's the UK (left) > > I repeat : Only the UK-guys drive left... and the aussies too... Iguess... > > There's Europe, right side, and there's UK, wrong side, or to quote a > famous headline from a British newspaper, "Fog in the channel, continent > isolated", says it all doesn't it :-D Nah! We (UK) simply didn't follow the French like the rest of Europe (and the US for that matter) following the French revolution and subsequent Napoleon conquests. Prior to that the aristocrats drove their carriages on the left while the citizens walked on the right. After the revolution few wanted to admit to being aristocrats, so drove on the right... The US apparently have a frenchman to blame for them driving on the wrong side too. We resisted Napoloeon and his mates with their crazy right hand side driving... Cheers Tony

"L. D. James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Anyone familiar with a program for the PC that teaches automobile > driving skills? Something simular to Microsoft's Flight Simulator 2004for > the plane? > > -- L. James > You use the word "ethical" in the subject line. Does that mean that games like Vice City do not fall under your realm of asking? :) But still, I think trying to teach someone how to drive (if that's what you're doing) through a computer program might be dangerous. Not sure, though, since I remember, way back in the 70s, when I went to high school and took Drivers Ed-- I remember using some kind of simulator. It wasn't a computer; it was some big thing with a real steering wheel, and things were pretty real. I still think it would be dangerous. :) Alanb > ----------------------- > L. D. James > [email hidden] > www.apollo3.com/~ljames > >

"Alan Bernardo" wrote... > "L. D. James" wrote... > > <snip> > > You use the word "ethical" in the subject line. Does that > mean that games like Vice City do not fall under your realm > of asking? :) I thought the original poster might have confused "ethical" and "educational", for one can fly like a madman in FS2004, should one so desire (no penalty other than failing the lesson/scenario at worst). > But still, I think trying to teach someone how to drive (if > that's what you're doing) through a computer program might > be dangerous. And you would think wrong. While a different physical experience altogether, simulation teaches familiarity with controls, procedures and situations. That's why the world's airforces and airlines invest in simulator time for their pilots and, increasingly (in Europe, don't know about the US/rest of the world) so are road transportation operators (trucks/coaches) for their drivers. > Not sure, though, since I remember, way back in the 70s, when > I went to high school and took Drivers Ed-- I remember using > some kind of simulator. It wasn't a computer; it was some > big thing with a real steering wheel, and things were pretty > real. Eventhough, predictably from my teen experiences (Europeans were not allowed to train for a drivers license before we turned 18 when I "learned" to drive), I took to handling a car like a duck to water, I was totally unprepared to deal with traffic from a car perspective. If I could have practised that on a sim that would have cut the amount of _paid_ lessons I took in half! > I still think it would be dangerous. :) I have become a safer driver through sim experience. Of all "games", the original Need 4 Speed made me realise it's really, really, *REALLY* stupid to drive faster than the general pace of traffic allows. Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mu_Pb.961$[email hidden]...

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> "Alan Bernardo" wrote... > > "L. D. James" wrote... > > > <snip> > > > > You use the word "ethical" in the subject line. Does that > > mean that games like Vice City do not fall under your realm > > of asking? :) > > I thought the original poster might have confused "ethical" and > "educational", for one can fly like a madman in FS2004, should one so

desire

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> (no penalty other than failing the lesson/scenario at worst). > > > But still, I think trying to teach someone how to drive (if > > that's what you're doing) through a computer program might > > be dangerous. > > And you would think wrong. While a different physical experience

altogether, > simulation teaches familiarity with controls, procedures and situations. > That's why the world's airforces and airlines invest in simulator time for > their pilots and, increasingly (in Europe, don't know about the US/rest of > the world) so are road transportation operators (trucks/coaches) for their > drivers. > And you think wrong, when interpreting what I said. I was speaking mainly of automobiles. The dangers, as I see it, has absolutley nothing to do with "familiarity with controls" and whatnot. It would seem that in these driving simulations, perspective could not be achieved as it can be in a real driving experience. And it would seem, further, that perspective is the biggest thing a new driver has to deal with. You have to know distance, how far you are away from things, such as another car, especially one to your right or left. And on turns, perspective is key, so that you don't run up on a curb and ram a mail box or pedestrian. Maybe you can get this kind of experience from a high-tech simulator, I don't know. But since you seem to be the expert, with undoubted confidence and bravado, you might know about these things more than I would. > > I have become a safer driver through sim experience. Of all "games", the > original Need 4 Speed made me realise it's really, really, *REALLY* stupid > to drive faster than the general pace of traffic allows. > You must be joking. It took Need for Speed to realize this? That's very odd; and completely unbelievable. Alanb

The 3D-Fahrschule is actually quite good just for drilling in the many special driving situations in typical European traffic, like right-of-way at traffic circles, situational awareness with pedestrians etc. It even stresses things like mirror checks and looking for traffic to the side before entering a street. It certainly won't teach the physical process of driving, but it is a very well done program for teaching the rules of the road. Of course, the instructor gets quite angry by the third error.

If I remember well the story about right side driving and left side driving goes much farther back than Napoleon, the romans were mostly right handed people and were carrying swords on their right side while riding their horses and thus on the roman roads the use was to travel on the RIGHT side of the road just because it was easier to climb on your horse with the leg WITHOUT the sword (LEFT), so since you had to be on the right side on the road to climb on your horse you just kept on being on the right side of the road. That's the reson for the entire world (of the time) to drive/walk/ride on the RIGHT side of the road, now the reason for the UK to drive on the left side MIGHT have something to do with trains, I don't know the specifics but i know the english invented the trains and in all of europe the trains are "driving" on the left, so I guess it's probably coming from the UK. Also since people are usually more skillful with their right hand I think it's a good idea to shift with your right hand, so the english system is not good for me because of this, and all the racing cars, even built in britain have a right hand shifter...weird. -- Visit my website for pinball machines for sale www.huillier.com/Pinball Email contact on the site

On 23 Jan 2004 08:48:23 GMT, Txl <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>If I remember well the story about right side driving and left side driving >goes much farther back than Napoleon, the romans were mostly right handed >people and were carrying swords on their right side while riding their >horses and thus on the roman roads the use was to travel on the RIGHT side >of the road just because it was easier to climb on your horse with the leg >WITHOUT the sword (LEFT), so since you had to be on the right side on the >road to climb on your horse you just kept on being on the right side of the >road.

I thought swords were generally carried on the left hip. For a right hander (the vast majority), pulling out a long sword from a scabbard on the right would be very awkward. >That's the reson for the entire world (of the time) to drive/walk/ride on >the RIGHT side of the road, now the reason for the UK to drive on the left >side MIGHT have something to do with trains, I don't know the specifics but >i know the english invented the trains and in all of europe the trains are >"driving" on the left, so I guess it's probably coming from the UK. There is an interesting description of the worldwide situation at: http://www.i18nguy.com/driver-side.html -- Andrew. To email unscramble [email hidden] & remove spamtrap. Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim messages to quote only relevent text. Check groups.google.com before asking a question.

Good observation, Alan. I should have clarified my use of the word "ethical".. I should have mentioned the only two driving programs I'm familiar with, Testdrive and Nascar 2003. As far as I can see, Testdrive would be a pretty good program except it's always race against the clock otherwise you only have seconds to play. I don't see an option to participate in taking your time and trying to stay within your side of the road and follow the lane. The only way you can participate in that game is to initially drive like a maniac, knock over trees, cars, and chase pedestrians off the sidewalk. FS2004 gives a lot of valuable experience. It shows a lot of perspective. It even makes flying around sceneries and sites very interesting. I was hoping to find an automobile game/simulator that could give some of the same type of experience. Maybe it would allow the user to drive around the city, experience stopping at traffic lights, parking, and maybe entering and exiting the freeway. Maybe Microsoft will take on this challenge and start to add cities and garages similar to what they have done with flight simulator. Again, "ethical" (driving ethics: not having to drive like a fool to participate. "Like FS2004", having realistic sites and terrain to navigate. As a tutor of young children, I use Flight Simulator to teach math reading, planning and many other things, while allowing my students to have fun. I can say decent about 500 feet, and they learn subtract 500 from 2000 (for example). I'll have to look around and see what is about Vice City. Thanks for all the input. -- L. James ----------------------- L. D. James [email hidden] www.apollo3.com/~ljames "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:STYPb.103410$5V2.385489@attbi_s53...

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> > "L. D. James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Anyone familiar with a program for the PC that teaches automobile > > driving skills? Something simular to Microsoft's Flight Simulator 2004 > for > > the plane? > > > > -- L. James > > > > You use the word "ethical" in the subject line. Does that mean that games > like Vice City do not fall under your realm of asking? :) > > But still, I think trying to teach someone how to drive (if that's what > you're doing) through a computer program might be dangerous. Not sure, > though, since I remember, way back in the 70s, when I went to high school > and took Drivers Ed-- I remember using some kind of simulator. It wasn't

a > computer; it was some big thing with a real steering wheel, and thingswere > pretty real. > > I still think it would be dangerous. :) > > Alanb

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 05:03:40 -0500, "L. D. James" <[email hidden]> top posted: > I'll have to look around and see what is about Vice City. If it is for children, any of the Microsoft Midtown Madness games would be a much better idea, and has a much more realistic traffic model. GTA:VC, while being an awesome game, it has a Mature rating for good reason. -- Andrew. To email unscramble [email hidden] & remove spamtrap. Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim messages to quote only relevent text. Check groups.google.com before asking a question.

"L. D. James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > FS2004 gives a lot of valuable experience. It shows a lot of > perspective. It even makes flying around sceneries and sites very > interesting. I was hoping to find an automobile game/simulator that could > give some of the same type of experience. Maybe it would allow the userto > drive around the city, experience stopping at traffic lights, parking, and > maybe entering and exiting the freeway. > 3d-fahrschule does all this, and makes sure you check blindspots at junctions, watch out for pedestrians, follow speed limits etc.

Txl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> > Also since people are usually more skillful with their right hand I think > it's a good idea to shift with your right hand, so the english system is > not good for me because of this, and all the racing cars, even built in > britain have a right hand shifter...weird. > >

During the CART race in Surfer's Paradise last year, American Jimmy Vasser got to do a demo lap of the Aussie circuit in a V8 Super Car. Shifting was the most difficult thing for him to learn. Using the left hand to shift is very unnatural for folks who have grown up with Left Hand Drive. He missed several downshifts and appologised after the lap to the engineer(S) who would have to tear down and rebuild the tranny. dave henrie

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Txl <[email hidden]> wrote innews:[email hidden]: > > > > > Also since people are usually more skillful with their right hand Ithink > > it's a good idea to shift with your right hand, so the english system is > > not good for me because of this, and all the racing cars, even built in > > britain have a right hand shifter...weird. > > > > > During the CART race in Surfer's Paradise last year, American JimmyVasser > got to do a demo lap of the Aussie circuit in a V8 Super Car. > Shifting was the most difficult thing for him to learn. Using the lefthand to > shift is very unnatural for folks who have grown up with Left Hand Drive. > He missed several downshifts and appologised after the lap to theengineer(S) > who would have to tear down and rebuild the tranny. > dave henrie Depends on the person. I have had no problems jumping into a British car and driving, even when the pace steps up considerably, despite nearly 20 years of "muscle memory" from left hand drive. Stephen

Be careful. If you ask too many questions about a realistic trainer, you might get pulled over by the FBI. I don't remember the link, but there was a story this week about an Airline Pilot who went into Staples asking about a Flight Training Simulator for her daughter, who was also interested in flying. The Staples Employee reported the questions to the FBI, and the FBI went knocking on the poor persons door and interrogated them. We have completely lost our friggen minds. -Larry "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:400ff8f1$[email hidden]...

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> > "L. D. James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Anyone familiar with a program for the PC that teaches automobile > > driving skills? Something simular to Microsoft's Flight Simulator 2004 > for > > the plane? > > > > http://www.3d-fahrschule.de/ > > A demo is available > >

Andrew <spamtrap@localhost> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > I thought swords were generally carried on the left hip. For a right > hander (the vast majority), pulling out a long sword from a scabbard > on the right would be very awkward. > Roman shortswords were carried on the right, and drawn with the right hand. It made it easier for them to maintain tight formations in battlefield conditions. Whether that has any relevance to what side of the road people drive on, I haven't a clue. cheers John

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:49:51 GMT, JM <[email hidden]> wrote: >Roman shortswords were carried on the right, and drawn with the right hand. >It made it easier for them to maintain tight formations in battlefield >conditions. They only had short swords though :-) -- Andrew. To email unscramble [email hidden] & remove spamtrap. Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim messages to quote only relevent text. Check groups.google.com before asking a question.

I hadnt heard that one. Thats a SAD story. Let freedom ring, jeeees. "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pZcQb.6919$_H5.3167@lakeread06... > Be careful. If you ask too many questions about a realistic trainer, you > might get pulled over by the FBI. > > I don't remember the link, but there was a story this week about anAirline > Pilot who went into Staples asking about a Flight Training Simulator forher

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> daughter, who was also interested in flying. > > The Staples Employee reported the questions to the FBI, and the FBI went > knocking on the poor persons door and interrogated them. > > We have completely lost our friggen minds. > > -Larry >

> Again, "ethical" (driving ethics: not having to drive like a fool to > participate. "Like FS2004", having realistic sites and terrain tonavigate. > > > I'll have to look around and see what is about Vice City. > Well, for one, VC does not have multiplayer I don't believe. And for two, you do need to "drive like a fool to participate." The game is completely nuts; I fooled with it for a while but found it not to my liking. It's a game of mass slaughter, and has nothing in it that anyone would consider ethical. :) Alanb

"Alan Bernardo" wrote... > > <snip> > And you think wrong, when interpreting what I said. I was > speaking mainly of automobiles. The dangers, as I see it, > has absolutley nothing to do with "familiarity with > controls" and whatnot. It has everything to do with those. That, in fact, is the whole point. Controlling a car is not *that* difficult, but it takes a lot of attention to what you're doing until it becomes "automatic". Likewise, keeping track of where you're going and the correct response to specific traffic situations (buses pulling out of stops, school crossings, roundabouts etc...) isn't all that difficult. Put all three together and the student's attention/ability to cope is stretched more than just a little. IMO, simulation can help all three factors. Especially where response to certain "set pieces" in traffic is concerned. There's a big gap between knowing what to do and acting correctly when the time comes. Sims can surely help to bridge that gap. > It would seem that in these driving simulations, perspective > could not be achieved as it can be in a real driving experience. It only needs to be self contained. Both the sim and the real world driving experience are "real" in their own context. > And it would seem, further, that perspective is the biggest > thing a new driver has to deal with. You have to know distance, > how far you are away from things, such as another car, > especially one to your right or left. And on turns, perspective > is key, so that you don't run up on a curb and ram a mail box or > pedestrian. Theorethically, this should be an area where sim experience is valuable, as we're talking "sense of position" here. Unless it's a very tight squeeze, one never really visually checks whether one will clear an obstacle or not. Instead it's inferred from what one can see and one's mental model of the car, the surroundings and the projection of the current trajectory. It all happens in the head, so there should be little difference between real world and sim world from a driver's seat perspective. I certainly don't experience that aspect as different, but I learned to drive first and sim later, so it might be interesting to hear from the other side of the coin (is RallyBrat monitoring this thread?). > Maybe you can get this kind of experience from a high-tech > simulator, I don't know. But since you seem to be the expert, > with undoubted confidence and bravado, you might know about > these things more than I would. I don't claim to be an expert, but I will confess to knowing more than your average bear (or at least I think I do). I have a lot of experience with sims and I have read quite some biomedical, neurological and psychological material on what immersion is and why we simulation/game reality as "real". To cut a long (and dull) story short, it really only takes a fairly crude simulator to make an experience believable. The reason the high tech simulators exist is people need to practise life threathening emergencies in them. That's why they have complete, detailed full size mock-ups of cabs/cockpits (when the ground is coming up at 200ft/s, is not a good time to have to look for the switch that engages the back-up ILS) and motion simulators. The ADAC truck simulator exists to familiarize drivers with the effects of temperature on certain chemicals in tank transports which affect the handling of the whole combination. Though one can take a truck/trailer (with helper wheels) to a skidpad, to really "simulate" what happens would be very difficult without the risk of a chemical spill/fire, so in the end they decided to build a simulator. Seeing as these effects are a "feel" thing, it had to be very sofisticated in the motion simulator department (and, from second hand experience, I can attest it's "scarily realistic"). However, the beginner driver will not be doing any "seat of the pants" driving and most emergencies will require either braking or swerving(*), so a wheel/pedal set is really all that's required. Your learner car shouldn't feature as many switches and knobs as a 747. Especially over here, where the law requires you to know what each one does. (*)Rem: and realising you've completely overlooked the car coming the other way because you were still looking at the kid on the bicycle and not for/at your escape route. Better to do that in a sim than in real life, I'd say. > > <snip> > You must be joking. It took Need for Speed to realize this? > That's very odd; and completely unbelievable. It's the truth, though. Not that I really raced in traffic the way it's done in the sim, but I did habitually speed by quite a margin (this was before speedcameras started popping up all over the place) and I did rely too much on other drivers not to do anything unexpected. The traffic AI in NFS, however, is of the moron kind and I realised that if I didn't stand a chance of avoiding an accident in this oversimplified game, I wouldn't stand a chance in hell in the real world. That slowed me down quite a bit, getting older and more responsible did the rest. Jan. =---