Has GPL raised the standard too high?

Geez... I drove the Toca 2 demo for an hour and it was fun, good graphics, super idea but it reminded me of NFS more than anything else. Even with the physics on max it feels closer to an arcade game than a driving sim. Don't get me wrong, I like Toca2 in it's way just like MGPR2 and most other recent sim titles but... With SCGT and TransAm coming I wonder if either one of those titles will be able too meet the challenge of GPL's combination of such a super physics model, great ai and graphics? JM - hmmm N3 with TPTCC patch?

John Moore wrote Well you have a good point here. The same happened when Grand Prix 2 went on the market. It raised the bar REALLY high, and even these days hard-core simracing titles are equally in many points to it (ex : recent Ubisoft titles, or even some points in Papyrus titles). GPL did the same also. Now you will agree with me that GPLegends is _THE_ hard-core sim ? Ok ;-) We need to understand that upcoming titles (there's 10 on the top of my head) in 1999 will probablynot be as hard-core as GPL. Not because it's not targeted as. Im sure TAR is targeted as Hard-core. Maybe a little less for SportscarGT, but still they are simulators, not arcade titles. There is many reasons for that. Primo, they don't have a Geoff Crammond or a David Kaemmer as employee. That makes a BIG difference. Secondo, the budget, or timeframe is not as big as for per example GP3. During the development they will need to scratch up many points. Many of them are there to appeal the arcade market, but MUCH more are for the hard-core simmers. Finalto (that's a word? :-D ), the experience might be lacking. Papyrus is the reference in simracing titles (much like Jane's for Airsims) so they have the biggest baggages of titles (just relook at the history of Papyrus titles, it's incredible). They know perfectly the market, and aim their product in that direction. GPL being the best example of a racing title marketed for Hard-core simmes ONLY. -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I just hope future sims will *not* try to copy GPL's AI, damage model or even the graphics. Those are certainly not its shiny points. As to the physics, I dunno. Most people seem to confuse car physics with car behaviour these days and are astouned that a simulated touring car doesn't feel like the good old 67 GPL cigars. Well, in that case you'll probably become dissapointed by any of the upcoming releases. --Tel

For a proper sim, car physics = car behavior. That's not to say that other formats should feel remotely like the cars in GPL. THEY don't even feel like each other that much. Drive the Lotus and then hop in the BRM for a spin. I suspect many people will be surprised at how different those big Nascar stockers are going to feel in N3. As for the AI and damage model, I think most of the criticism would have been eliminated by simply allowing a bit more choice and tunability within GPL's menu system, without resorting to editing the .ini's. Given the broader target market for N3, I would guess it'll be more friendly in these respects. I personally like the subtlety in GPL's damage model, but can understand how it might be fun to turn it off now and then. And it would be nice to see the cc's lose a few parts after a collision has left ME with a mono-wheeled Lotus...again. Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

Actually I was referring to stuff like the superstrong suspensions, wheels that won't come off even after a double salto at max speed, weird spins or the undestructable chassis (werent they made of aluminium back then?). Even though the option says so, that's hardly a realistic damage model and it really isn't something that could be tweaked with a few additional settings here and there, that's IMO a vital part of the simulation. And btw, you can play around with the inis as much as you want this won't cure the ai from following their pre-scripted ways causing the same start pile up over and over again if you don't react. So in conclusion car physics are great - for what they're trying to simulate that is - but for any future sims I'd expect a bit more than that. --Tel

Tel what level are u playing GPL on. the damage model is superb, u only have to touch some things very lightly to have your suspension slightly damaged making it very hard or even impossible to drive, and the wheels come off very easily when u hit something. Have u altered your ini files for AI because this is probably why u are getting pile ups, faster cars starting behind slower 1's etc. U really shouldn't bother messing with them, and just have fun trying to beat the guys that race at your speed and get great satisfaction out of that, and just watch the faster guys drive away ,dreaming that in a couple of months u will be beating them too . I have all 19 cars on and hardly get caught up in any pile ups unless caused by myself, yes occasionally there are pile ups caused by the AI but then that just shows what great Ai drivers they are because even the best have bad days. we all see pile ups in real racing. I have saved start positions for many races and so started the same race from the same place many times ,and the starts can be very different, far from scripted, yes usually u can pick out 1 car which is always a little slow but definitely not scripted. And as for driving in amongst the AI in races they are incredible , and it is very hard to tell the difference between them and real drivers. In conclusion GPL has by far the best Damage model and AI of any sim to date and I think it will be a little while b4 they are improved. And indeed the things u are trying to knock ,AI physics and graphics are (indeed by any1 who has played it long enough) the "shiny points". -- Vince Fisher

I don't seem to have any trouble shearing the suspension and wheels off my Lotus. Perhaps you're not trying hard enough :-) I can send you a replay of both my fronts disappearing vertically out of sight at Eau Rouge! I think they may have landed over at the Nurburgring. Let me know if you see 'em lying around. As for tweaking the tub, that's a tough one. It would require more discrete elements in the physics model, requiring yet more from our already-maxed-out CPU's. Sure it'd be more realistic, which is always nice, but I can live with the current model's compromises for now. I get annoyed with the AI crashing into me too, on occasion. Usually, however, a quick look at the replay reveals the true culprit! Guess who. They do tend to be less "aware" on starts, but no more so than some of the morons I've raced with in real life. And I still have the scars to prove that one. So when I'm yelling at Hulme to keep that dog-slow Brabham away from me, I don't pin it on bad AI, just bad I. Nothing artificial about that! Cheers, Steve B. remove "edy" from address for email

I think you forgot probably the most important reason these other new sims are not feeling quite a real as they should after driving GPL. Namely the cars in TOCA2, TransAm Racing, Nascar 3 (2000 whatever <G>) etc, are not going to be as hard to drive as 67 GP cars. ;) Dan http://www.smokinhq.com

> I have saved start positions for many races and so started the same > race > from the same place many times ,and the starts can be very > different, Really, how? I didn't think you could save a race? 8-) *Peter* #:-)

If you go to the grid and then bailout, you can "save the game" (i.e. the grid starting positions, the AI driver team assignments, field size, and the marquee that you were driving at the time). When you later come back to that particular track, GPL will ask you if you want to restore the saved game. If you answer yes, you'll be dropped onto the grid in your earned qualifying position. The "saved game" files that GPL creates are stored in your players\Doe__John folder with an extension of .SVG. I make a point of exiting out of GPL after qualifying if I find myself in an interesting new position on the grid. I copy the newly created SVG file to a saved game archive folder. I then rename the copy something descriptive like "watglen (Ferr 12 in 20).svg". Then later if I decide I'd like to race the Ferrari at The Glen from the 12th position on the grid, I just copy "watglen (Ferr 12 in 20).svg" to the players\Doe__John folder, rename it "watglen.svg" and away I go. Remember that even if you've changed cars, you'll find yourself in the marquee in which you qualified. By the way, you CAN make changes to your setup by hitting Pause once the screen just before the grid appears. Jump in and make your setup changes, and then click the green light to be dropped on the grid with the field there waiting for you. P.S. GPL deletes the SVG file for any given track when 1) you or the AI complete a race at that track or 2) you quit a race and respond No when asked if you want to "save the game" (or whatever the verbiage is they use, I can't recall).

Hi all, In my opinion, if GPL's physics receive so much praise, it all comes from the fact that the reactions of the car are believable. I mean, there aren't many things happening that can't be explained by true life physics. As an example, I still can't figure out how I can give full throttle to my car in ICR2 and still be unable to get a decent wheelspin. Or how come the motor's revs go from 0 to 13000 instantly when I give it full throttle in MGPRS2. Or how about that strange wheelspin in N2... These are only a few points that remind you everytime that you're not racing a real car. I didn't find much things to complain about in GPL. It just _feels_ right. That's what I look for in a sim. I'm not saying it's perfect tho, it still has its limitations, but they are less obvious IMHO than in any other sims available at present time. I bet you there's more to come in future releases. I wish the next surprise would come from another software developer than Papy... We know they're good, but we need some competition to keep them on their toes! A. Renault

On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:08:56 +0000, Vince Fisher >Tel what level are u playing GPL on. the damage model is superb, u only >have to touch some things very lightly to have your suspension slightly >damaged making it very hard or even impossible to drive, and the wheels >come off very easily when u hit something. Of course, that's what *usually* happens - although one might argue that it's rather your tyre than the suspension that gives up the ghost... i have yet to see a broken suspension. Anyways, you really wanna tell me that you never had one of those unbelievable (read impossible) stunts every circus would be proud of? The ones where you land with all 4 wheels & chassis intact when you should actually smashed the car into pieces? Never been stuck in a hedge all intact but a flat tyre after making contact at about 150mph? btw, I'm talking about realistic setting here. This is indeed different to my observation, maybe it's track dependant? Try Silverstone then... Graphics??? you must be kidding. It's certainly not *that* important but I have seen better things than that poor attempt on creating the trackside scenerie a long time ago. Have you ever noticed the 'tree' rows in Monza, or maybe the fences at the Nurburgring? What about the few spectators here and there? That's just ugly. Tracks and cars are nicely modeled however. --Tel

Or how come the motor's revs go from 0 to 13000 instantly Not in a real racing car? I haven't redlined a real F1 car but given that in gear they hit the redline in about 0.5secs in all the first 4 gears I can believe that in neutral it would be virtually instant. Dean

> Hi all, > In my opinion, if GPL's physics receive so much praise, it all comes > from the fact that the reactions of the car are believable. I mean, > there aren't many things happening that can't be explained by true > life physics. What about the fact that during oversteer, turning in even more corrects it? (I'll admit it's the only flaw I know in GPL) -- Torgeir Foss Oslo, Norway

We're talking about F1 here. I recall an article from the MArch/Leyton House of 1990 which said: "if the engine was run in neutral with no rev limit for 1 second it would reach 100,000 rpm's slightly before the rods started flying out the sides of the engine". Z.

> As to the physics, I dunno. Most people seem to confuse car physics > with car behaviour these days and are astouned that a simulated > touring car doesn't feel like the good old 67 GPL cigars. Well, in > that case you'll probably become dissapointed by any of the upcoming > releases. I don't think that's the case. Gran Turismo still feels "real" even after GPL. TOCA 2, just like TOCA, has touring cars with _no_ suspension, and feeling like plastic shells over something I can't quite imagine. I have no idea why the original was praised. Well, I have no idea why anybody would actually want to drive front-wheel drive cars. -- Anssi Lehtinen

>Or how come the motor's revs go from 0 to 13000 instantly >when I give it full throttle in MGPRS2. That's as it should be. Modern F1 engines spool up incredibly quickly, as standing outside the pits will testify. The mechanics test the engine with a small "scalextric" style joystick which they use to raise and lower the revs to warm the engine up, test it or whatever. The speed of response is incredible. Cheers! John

: Hi all, : In my opinion, if GPL's physics receive so much praise, it all comes : from the fact that the reactions of the car are believable. I mean, : there aren't many things happening that can't be explained by true : life physics. As an example, I still can't figure out how I can give : full throttle to my car in ICR2 and still be unable to get a decent : wheelspin. Or how come the motor's revs go from 0 to 13000 instantly : when I give it full throttle in MGPRS2. Or how about that strange : wheelspin in N2... These are only a few points that remind you : everytime that you're not racing a real car. I didn't find much : things to complain about in GPL. It just _feels_ right. That's what : I look for in a sim. There are some things that don't feel right in GPL. For example, when I spin off (which I do EVERY lap) the car winds up by the side of the road, completely stationary, without the clutch in, in first with no engine noise. It's as if the engine has died totally. It feels a bit strange to me. (But then, I've only seen these cars race, never driven one or really seen on parked in first). Seems a bit unlikely that can car can do this without stalling though. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:08:56 +0000, Vince Fisher :>Tel what level are u playing GPL on. the damage model is superb, u only :>have to touch some things very lightly to have your suspension slightly :>damaged making it very hard or even impossible to drive, and the wheels :>come off very easily when u hit something. : Of course, that's what *usually* happens - although one might argue : that it's rather your tyre than the suspension that gives up the : ghost... i have yet to see a broken suspension. It's certainly possible. A friend of mine was driving it round "The Ring" for a laugh rather than serious (crashing at every other corner) and managed to knock the rear so that the entire rear suspension just gave up and the back end of the car just squatted on the floor like... well, have you ever seen a dog with impacted ***glands? The damn thing just kept on, rubbing its rear on the course and sending up a huge shower of sparks. : Anyways, you really : wanna tell me that you never had one of those unbelievable (read : impossible) stunts every circus would be proud of? The ones where you : land with all 4 wheels & chassis intact when you should actually : smashed the car into pieces? Never been stuck in a hedge all intact : but a flat tyre after making contact at about 150mph? : btw, I'm talking about realistic setting here. Actually, on realistic, I don't think I ever got a flat tyre. How do you achieve this? Also, sometimes, I manage to rub the car along the armaco at about 70mph with nothing worse than a bit of oversteer as I leave contact with it. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

LOL. Before you insult large numbers of people with statements such as I would suggest that you, at minimum, learn the language. The word is "imbecile", and its a NOUN. The ADJECTIVE which you could have used to insult dozens of people, like a half-wit, is "imbecilic." You and your opinions might command a little more attention and respect if tact was a consideration.

> I get annoyed with the AI crashing into me too, on occasion. Usually, > however, a quick look at the replay reveals the true culprit! Guess who. T In my case at Monza last night Scarfiotti three times in a row... :-( -- Jonathon "JayGee" Green "Death to all fanatics!"

Also after a 180 spin when the car is rolling backwards why can't you floor the throttle in first to spin it round?? -- Mike Buckley WWW: www.toastyhamster.freeserve.co.uk

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> It's certainly possible. A friend of mine was driving it round "The > Ring" for a laugh rather than serious (crashing at every other corner) > and managed to knock the rear so that the entire rear suspension just > gave up and the back end of the car just squatted on the floor like... > well, have you ever seen a dog with impacted ***glands? The damn > thing just kept on, rubbing its rear on the course and sending up a huge > shower of sparks.

I believe the rubbing its rear, as my cat does that from time to time (although on the carpet, the bastard), but "sending up sparks"? What kind of breed is that? ;^) l8er ronny -- Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Yes Antoine, I agree. It FEELS right! Every hard-core racing simmer than has not experienced this yet (whether they be ***ed to N2 or MSRGP) owe it to themselves to experience this. I like the Brabham because off throttle and under braking, it feels like a car I've raced for a few years. It's that good. -Dave

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> Hi all, > In my opinion, if GPL's physics receive so much praise, it all comes > from the fact that the reactions of the car are believable. I mean, > there aren't many things happening that can't be explained by true > life physics. As an example, I still can't figure out how I can give > full throttle to my car in ICR2 and still be unable to get a decent > wheelspin. Or how come the motor's revs go from 0 to 13000 instantly > when I give it full throttle in MGPRS2. Or how about that strange > wheelspin in N2... These are only a few points that remind you > everytime that you're not racing a real car. I didn't find much > things to complain about in GPL. It just _feels_ right. That's what > I look for in a sim. > I'm not saying it's perfect tho, it still has its limitations, but > they are less obvious IMHO than in any other sims available at present > time. I bet you there's more to come in future releases. I wish the > next surprise would come from another software developer than Papy... > We know they're good, but we need some competition to keep them on > their toes! > A. Renault

Maybe the physics model wasn't the greatest, but fighting with the AI cars was truly enjoyable. I remember several times dicing with the Renaults trying to cut to the inside and get them to go wide and into the sand. Ah, if I would just get my wheel to work properly... Did I mention I'm crazy about touring/stock cars? - "If the meaning of life was printed in a book, someone would use it to keep the window open."

Considering the current wheather conditions I'm glad I don't have to drive a rearwheel driven car...;) --Tel

Is your last name perhaps " Mehoff" ?

Sorry, out of the loop on this one. Please explain.

> I believe the rubbing its rear, as my cat does that from time to time > (although on the carpet, the bastard), but "sending up sparks"? > What kind of breed is that? ;^) A Shitzu? -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Torgeir Foss wrote naw I've done it quite a few times in real-life and it's totally realistic. I remember seeing Doug Milliken saying that it's totally true. Just make a research at dejanews.com for "Doug Millken rec.autos.simulators". IIRC it was in "Understeer in open wheeled sims are gonna get better" `(with ASCII table) When you pass the point of the slip angle angling your front tyres at almost 90degree to the direction you have will make them slip and slow the car down (slowing the spin), thus giving momentum to the rear tyres to put you back to the good direction. The front tyres will act more like friction stoppers than directional ones. I might be wrong, still ;) -= Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -= NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -= SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -= Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -= May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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> I agree with Tel; the challenge of GPL comes from how unstable, > apparently, > those cars(in GPL) were to drive. Its foolish to think of > practically *any* > other sim needing remotely the same qualities(as GPL). In > comparison, in real > life, a Touring Car -would- be far less of a handfull obviously. > And the > aspect of tension in the danger of driving those old cars goes > without > saying. Touring Cars are technical machines compared to GPL era > cars ..the > amount and quality of technology is higher. They are 'easy' to > drive in > comparison. They are vastly more stable of a platform. Its imbicile > to regard > TOCA 2 as arcadish based on how comapratively stable it is, > compared to GPL. > Trans-Am cars were less stable than modern Touring Cars ..it > figures that > they should behave that way. Because Touring Cars are more stable > than > Trans-Am cars, does that make Touring Car racing more 'arcadish' in > real > life? There is a weird tendency to glorify the instability aspect > of GPL. > Its a 'mine is harder than yours' thing.. its stupid! The trend in > racing was > AWAY from the hazards of those GPL cars. Racers and builders wanted > MORE > SPEED and MORE SAFTEY ..certainly *they* didnt glorify the > handling! They > wanted *improved* handling! Enter: downforce. Are high downforce > cars more > 'arcadish' than cars without aerodynamics? Of course not! Racing is > filled > with tensions no matter WHAT exact form it takes, or what the exact > Formula > is(in construction.) The test, in my opinion, is how well you (some > of you) > GPL drivers think you can 'stand up' to the best drivers in other > forms of > sim-racing(racing them in THEIR game). OBVIOUSLY the answer is NOT > VERY WELL. > You think just because you happen to prefer the instability aspect > of GPL > that you somehow have power over experienced racers in other > disciplines? > They'll wipe the floor with you! Same is true for them: you wipe > the floor > with them if they are racing YOUR sim. Downforce(or more stable) > sims ARE NOT > more arcadish than wing-less sims. Ok, so it takes more physics to > depict > instability accurately ..OK!!!!! OK!!!! But play me at *my*

sim > ..and > you're dead meat buddy. What *exactly* is it you are trying to say? It seems to me you are (in a very long winded way!) saying arcade racers are good at arcade racing, and sim racers are good at sim racing, but an arcade racer will beat a sim racer driving an arcade game, and a sim racer will beat an aracde racer driving a sim. Yeah, thsi *may* probably be true, provided the sim racer doesn't also drive arcade games, and vice versa, so what? I think generally, sim racing is deemed to provide more of a challenge, as a more consistent and precise degree of car control is usually required for success. Which in turn usually means sim racers may have overall better car handling skills? Whereas, arcade type games generally do not model accurately as well as sims, the real world & car physics, and it may be argued that they are thus more forgiving and therefore easier to drive? I therefore conclude that generally, an accomplished sim racer will have slightly better car control skills (and possibly a better understanding of real world and driving physics?) than an arcade racer? and this may well result in a sim racer giving an arcade racer a pretty good run for his money, whereas, an arcade racer will probably not be up the job in a sim? Its just an opinion. (FX: Hose pipe at the ready.........) 8-) *Peter* #:-)

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> >Really, how? I didn't think you could save a race? > If you go to the grid and then bailout, you can "save the game" > (i.e. the > grid starting positions, the AI driver team assignments, field > size, and the > marquee that you were driving at the time).

Forgive my ignorance, but *exactly* how do you do this? I've gone to the grid, but then what do you do? If I press esc I get taken back a screen and no option to save is offered. I've also paused on the grid and checked what options are available to me via the F1 & F3 keys, and still I see no save game option? Thanks for any info you may have....(I'm wondering if this is only available in US versions of the sim?) 8-) *Peter* #:-)

On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:29:57 +0000, Mike Buckley >Also after a 180 spin when the car is rolling backwards why can't you >floor the throttle in first to spin it round?? Because you don't have a clutch.

It's not a flaw, it's how it should be. When you turn in hard during an oversteer, front tires loose grip eventually and start sliding. That's when you get the impression of correcting the spin.

Okay. Here you go: To create a "saved game"/qualifying session: 1. Pick your track and qualify. 2. Once you get the "Session Completed" message in the Race Weekend Menu (the screen preceding your move to the***pit), or anytime after that up until the time the race is completed, if you press <Escape > and <Enter> to retire, you'll get a dialog box that asks "Save The Completed Practice Results?" Select "Yes" and GPL will create a .SVG file in the folder I described earlier. To use a " saved game"/qualifying session: Anytime you click the green light in the Race Setup Menu, GPL examines YOUR players folder to see if it contains the unique SVG file for the track you've selected. This file shares its name with the corresponding tracks folder, and has an extension of .SVG. e.g. Nurburgring = nurburg.svg and Waktkins Glen = watglen.svg. If GPL finds this file when you click the green light, you will get a dialog box that asks, "Restore The Saved Race Weekend For The Current Event?" If you respond, "Yes", you'll be on the grid in your previous qualifying position driving the car in which you qualified, after you click on the green light in the subsequent Race Weekend Menu. As I mentioned earlier, you may elect to "Pause" before going to your***pit in order to change your setup. It's a nice feature. It allows you to get right to racing in a variety of cars from a variety of grid positions. Incidentally, pressing the <Enter> key is equivalent to clicking "Yes" in both the dialog boxes I mention here. Make sense? If not, let me know.

There's a line in Monty Python's _The Life of Brian_ where the Roman emperor mentions that he had a friend named Incontinentia . . . Incontenentia Buttux, that is . . . >>Is your last name perhaps " Mehoff" ? >Sorry, out of the loop on this one. Please explain.

>Have you ever noticed the 'tree' >rows in Monza, or maybe the fences at the Nurburgring? What about the >few spectators here and there? That's just ugly. Tracks and cars are >nicely modeled however. They look fine at 100mph. Maybe you need to practice more. Ben

On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:29:57 +0000, Mike Buckley >Also after a 180 spin when the car is rolling backwards why can't you >floor the throttle in first to spin it round?? Because you don't have the clutch in. Try putting the clutch in, revving it up then dropping the clutch in first - it will spin like a top. Cheers! John

("Antoine Renault") dribbled the following: Agreed, also in Toca2 (PSX version anyway) why in the USA track in some stright line areas, the cars seem to slow down. eg. through the shopping mall, you floor the gas it but it dont accelrate as fast as it used to be. Is the floor sticky or somthing? :) -- Gadget???. http://www.i-r-gadget.freeserve.co.uk UIN 862812 Please remove the "NOWT" from email if replying. soz bout tha speeling.

Useful info snipped..... Yep it does, thanks. I'd already realized what I was doing wrong (almost as soon as I sent the message!!!) I think it was a case of not seeing the woods for the trees? (Otherwise known as brain fade) Thanks again..... 8-) Peter G

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> > >Really, how? I didn't think you could save a race? > > If you go to the grid and then bailout, you can "save the game" > > (i.e. the > > grid starting positions, the AI driver team assignments, field > > size, and the > > marquee that you were driving at the time). > Forgive my ignorance, but *exactly* how do you do this? I've gone to > the grid, but then what do you do? If I press esc I get taken back > a screen and no option to save is offered. I've also paused on the > grid and checked what options are available to me via the F1 & F3 > keys, and still I see no save game option?

Erm? sorry, i've figured it out now, DOHHHH!!!!! I forgot all about the box that comes up and asks you? Thanks anyway.....

Glad to help.

Wallace) dribbled the following:

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>On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:29:57 +0000, Mike Buckley >>Also after a 180 spin when the car is rolling backwards why can't you >>floor the throttle in first to spin it round?? >Because you don't have the clutch in. Try putting the clutch in, >revving it up then dropping the clutch in first - it will spin like a >top.

do you have to have a analoge clutch, I cant pull away fast enought at starts with digital one. :( -- Gadget???. http://www.i-r-gadget.freeserve.co.uk UIN 862812 Please remove the "NOWT" from email if replying. soz bout tha speeling.

Yeah. Glad to help.

> Also after a 180 spin when the car is rolling backwards why can't > you > floor the throttle in first to spin it round?? Sounds pretty realistic to me? You can actually wheelspin away from a spin like this, simply engage the clutch, (with the car in first gear) up the revs, and disengage the clutch, and voila, loadsa wheelspin? You can't normally just floor it when the car si idling in first gear, (unless the revs are high?) or else you would risk stalling. 8-) *Peter* #:-)

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> There are some things that don't feel right in GPL. For example, > when > >I spin off (which I do EVERY lap) the car winds up by the side of > the > >road, completely stationary, without the clutch in, in first with > no > >engine noise.

Hmm, sounds like you are using the auto gearbox to me? when I spin off, I end up in whatever gear I was using? Try using the manual gears...... 8-) *Peter* #:-)

On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:25:13 GMT, >do you have to have a analoge clutch, I cant pull away fast enought at >starts with digital one. :( Yes, I have an analogue clutch but I generally don't use it. AFAI understand, if you are rolling backwards the clutch will automatically be employed by GPL to stop the engine stalling (or being ruined). When you push the gas the clutch is engaged again (or tries to) and has the job of slowing the car down since from the low initial revs it doesn't have the power to break the tires loose and spin you around. If however you hold the clutch in manually, redline the engine and then drop the clutch, the sudden burst of power will break the tires loose and spin you. The drawback is that your spin will be very unpredictable and all your "forward" (means in the direction you should be going) will be lost. I find it far better to do a "Hollywood turn", where you turn the wheel toward the side of the track where you have most space - the rear will head in that direction and the car will start to come around. At that point you can tap the brakes to lock up the front and slide it round, then hammer the gas to get going. I find that much quicker (and god knows I've had lots of practice!). Cheers! John