SBLive vs. MX300 - Which SOUNDS better?

Okay, after looking at all of the reviews, I'm confused. I understand all of the relative benefits of their respective API's, and they both seem like great cards. However, they all talk about first-person shooters, and 4-speaker systems. All I really want to know is which SOUNDS better, primarily for sims, on a 2-speaker system? (Cambridge PC Works - 2 cubes and a subwoofer...) Also, I understand that the MX300 has a digital gameport, which I like, but does it really make enough of a difference to outway any sound differences? Thanks for any input, Keith

Well, I don't know if you can hear other fighters buzzing you in a modern or WW2 era fighter, but you *can* hear it in the game. If they're going to put it in the game at all, they might as well put the sounds in 3D. EAW has some wonderful doppler-shift sound effects when you're dogfighting. Make those sounds work in "3D sound" and it would be even cooler. Neil M.

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>I understand your question, but look at it this way, in a flight sim >you're stuck in a confined***pit. The sounds around you are bouncing >off the canopy. How much outside stimuli are you going to get? I wouldn't >expect much. So, with that said I think a SB-16 or AWE is good enough! >Why waste your money on 3D sound stuff if you're not going to use it? >Unless you're going to play 1st person shooters, forget it the high >priced cards.

Don't know if this will influence you, but the Live! uses less of your system / CPU resources than the SB16. I pulled out an AWE64 (ISA) and put in a Live! (PCI) and it was a noticable improvement...both in sound and performance. I have the value version, the one without the daughter card, they can be had for $80-100 US. Good luck, Michael J. Kaspar ICQ 3025001 remove DONOTSPAM to reply thru email >Okay, after looking at all of the reviews, I'm confused. I understand all of

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>the relative benefits of their respective API's, and they both seem like >great cards. >However, they all talk about first-person shooters, and 4-speaker systems. >All I really want to know is which SOUNDS better, primarily for sims, on a >2-speaker system? (Cambridge PC Works - 2 cubes and a subwoofer...) >Also, I understand that the MX300 has a digital gameport, which I like, but >does it really make enough of a difference to outway any sound differences? >Thanks for any input, >Keith

I understand your question, but look at it this way, in a flight sim you're stuck in a confined***pit. The sounds around you are bouncing off the canopy. How much outside stimuli are you going to get? I wouldn't expect much. So, with that said I think a SB-16 or AWE is good enough! Why waste your money on 3D sound stuff if you're not going to use it? Unless you're going to play 1st person shooters, forget it the high priced cards. Personally I bought a SBLIVE! for Trespasser and though it sounds great, I really could have been happy with my SB-16. In fact, after a lot of trial and error attempting to get ATP and Fleet Defender to work with my Live! I ended up throwing my hands up and putting my SB16 back in the machine! Legacy DOS games are not the SBLive!'s biggest attribute. Silent Hunter worked fine though. As for the digital port, the Live! also has a digital game port. I found it works well. Nathan

The joystick port on the LIVE is analog.

Confusing aint it! I'm going thru the same process at the moment, I currently have an AWE 64. After reading about 20 online reviews my decision is the MX300 and this is why: - Most (not all) reviews say that it has better game sound than the live when using 2 or 4 speakers or headphones, music seemed to be a much closer decision. - It is significantly cheaper than the live value here in Australia. -Digital game port, live has not - less joysick polling by the CPU - Supports A3d and EAX (with the new drivers) APIs whereas live only supports EAX - Promised lower CPU usage in forthcoming driver updates (I'll believe it when I see it) One thing is clear, they are both excellent cards capable of pumping great sound and whichever you choose I doubt that you will be unhappy. Just my 2c - but based on a lot of reading Chris to reply, remove ozmail, insert onaustralia

Think he hit the right spot there. The latest issue of Maximum PC takes a look at 3D sound acceleration and CPU usage. The Live used the least resources by far (under 3%) MX300 was up around 15%. This may prove crucial in high end sims. For the record I do own the Live Value card and bought it before the MX300 was available for comparison, but after reading that article and a few others on the web, I think I made the right choice. As far as sound quality, it seems that both cards are superb. I use a 4 speaker setup but have heard that both cards simulate 3D well on 2 speakers but PC Gamer gave the edge here to the Live. If you are satisfied with your current speaker setup, you can purchase a cheap pair of speakers for the rear channels. Both cards have 2 jacks (one for front and one for rear). BTW, that article in Maximum PC also tested the Phillips USB speakers w/o any soundcard and found 75% CPU usage!!!

I don't have one, but I read on a couple of sites that the CPU usage on the MX300 was due to beta drivers. The new release drivers supposedly reduce CPU usage to what the SB Live uses. Also the MX300 is supposed to support EAX in the next driver release. Marc >Don't know if this will influence you, but the Live! uses less of your >system / CPU resources than the SB16. I pulled out an AWE64 (ISA) and put >in a Live! (PCI) and it was a noticable improvement...both in sound and >performance.

CombatSim.com just put a review of MX300. It seems that with the release version of the driver, the CPU usuage is at worst 6%. Foxbat

However EAX support is going to be through software NOT hardware. Due to the nature of the MX300 not having a programmable DSP. >I don't have one, but I read on a couple of sites that the CPU usage on the >MX300 was due to beta drivers. The new release drivers supposedly reduce CPU >usage to what the SB Live uses. Also the MX300 is supposed to support EAX in

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>the next driver release. >Marc >>Don't know if this will influence you, but the Live! uses less of your >>system / CPU resources than the SB16. I pulled out an AWE64 (ISA) and put >>in a Live! (PCI) and it was a noticable improvement...both in sound and >>performance.

I'm not sure if EAW or WW2 Fighters has EAX or Aureal encoding in them, but if they don't then you're just hearing the usual stereo stuff. If it's the usual stereo stuff then a regular sound card would have sufficed. Nathan

Correct. My statement was hypothetical. Neil M. >> Well, I don't know if you can hear other fighters buzzing you in a modern >> or WW2 era fighter, but you *can* hear it in the game. If they're going to >> put it in the game at all, they might as well put the sounds in 3D. EAW has

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>> some wonderful doppler-shift sound effects when you're dogfighting. >> Make those sounds work in "3D sound" and it would be even cooler. >I'm not sure if EAW or WW2 Fighters has EAX or Aureal encoding in them, >but if they don't then you're just hearing the usual stereo stuff. If >it's the usual stereo stuff then a regular sound card would have sufficed. >Nathan

There is one very crucial thing EVERYONE has overlooked: the acoustics of the room they will be used in. As with anything - it doesn't matter *what* soundcard you are using if your speakers are junk or the room acoustics make it sound awful.

True - as well as if you've got the $$$ to shell out for the extra speakers... If you've got 2 powered speakers, the MX300 would do what the Live! would with 4. Personally, I feel the MX300 would do EAX better than the Live! does it itself... Follow this link... www.pcarena.com/tech Regards! Bob >There is one very crucial thing EVERYONE has overlooked: the >acoustics of the room they will be used in. As with anything - it >doesn't matter *what* soundcard you are using if your speakers are >junk or the room acoustics make it sound awful.

The MX300 is hardwired for A3D. It has no programmable DSP (unlike the Live card). If the MX300 does emulate EAX it will do so strictly in software. This would be a large performance hit when you are running today's demanding games. The chances of a card that has to emulate an API in software sounding better than one that natively supports it in hardware are _very_ slim.

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>True - as well as if you've got the $$$ to shell out for the extra >speakers... If you've got 2 powered speakers, the MX300 would do what the >Live! would with 4. Personally, I feel the MX300 would do EAX better than >the Live! does it itself... >Follow this link... www.pcarena.com/tech >Regards! >Bob >>There is one very crucial thing EVERYONE has overlooked: the >>acoustics of the room they will be used in. As with anything - it >>doesn't matter *what* soundcard you are using if your speakers are >>junk or the room acoustics make it sound awful.

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>The MX300 is hardwired for A3D. It has no programmable DSP (unlike the Live >card). If the MX300 does emulate EAX it will do so strictly in software. >This would be a large performance hit when you are running today's demanding >games. >The chances of a card that has to emulate an API in software sounding better >than one that natively supports it in hardware are _very_ slim.

I have read repeatedly that new drivers will allow the MX300 to decode EAX in "hardware". While I am not certain how that is done, I am optimistic that it will be a viable solution.

>The MX300 is hardwired for A3D. It has no programmable DSP (unlike the Live >card). If the MX300 does emulate EAX it will do so strictly in software. >This would be a large performance hit when you are running today's demanding >games. >The chances of a card that has to emulate an API in software sounding better >than one that natively supports it in hardware are _very_ slim. I'm not so certain that EAX on the MX300 will run *strictly* in software. All EAX does is add a reverb effect to the sound (as far as I've explored in the Software Development Kit so far) and since the Vortex 2 chip can (as far as I know) do this in A3D 2 it should be using at least some hardware to speed up the sound playback. As for sound, don't know yet cos it isn't available as of yet. (nb. EAX 2.0 also sounds like it will be fairly similar to A3D 2 so maybe the Vortex 2 chips can hardware accelerate that as well, but that will probably depend on drivers) Marco

Also - native support for the Live! seems to be rather misleading... see those Live! logos on boxes? Yeah - it's in DirectSound 3D and or DS3D EAX - both of which can be done on the Vortex 2.0 / MX300. In regards to performance hits, yes, the MX300 does take more CPU cycles... but on a 450 with 128 Megs of RAM, who's gonna notice? It's not like a friggin difference of 30 FPS while playing HL - more like 6 - 7.... So what's the deal? My 2 Cents! Bob

EAX WILL run in hardware on the MX300 or any other Vortex 2 card. Its a myth that it will only run in software. -Terry

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> >The MX300 is hardwired for A3D. It has no programmable DSP (unlike the > Live > >card). If the MX300 does emulate EAX it will do so strictly in software. > >This would be a large performance hit when you are running today's > demanding > >games. > >The chances of a card that has to emulate an API in software sounding > better > >than one that natively supports it in hardware are _very_ slim. > I'm not so certain that EAX on the MX300 will run *strictly* in software. > All EAX does is add a reverb effect to the sound (as far as I've explored in > the Software Development Kit so far) and since the Vortex 2 chip can (as far > as I know) do this in A3D 2 it should be using at least some hardware to > speed up the sound playback. As for sound, don't know yet cos it isn't > available as of yet. > (nb. EAX 2.0 also sounds like it will be fairly similar to A3D 2 so maybe > the Vortex 2 chips can hardware accelerate that as well, but that will > probably depend on drivers) > Marco

>EAX WILL run in hardware on the MX300 or any other Vortex 2 card. Its a >myth that it will only run in software. >-Terry That would be a nifty trick, considering that EAX runs in hardware only through the EMU10K1 processor; which is used only in the Soundblaster Live cards. Can you supply a link from Diamond's website that says the MX300 can run EAX through the Vortex2 chipset (not software emulation). I didn't think so.