Can a racing simulator make you think you're prepared for the real thing?

Hi all Just so I know: How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit speed? How many of you think about getting into a real racecar since they've started playing GPL? How many of you find themselves thinking "ah, he should've taken this one flat out in 2nd" when sitting in the passenger seat whit a friend or relative driving? How many of you think other people on the road have bad AI programming? How many of you think Paul Tracy's a little bit overweight for a racecar driver? Just wanted to know if I was the only one with those problems... A. Renault

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Hi all > Just so I know: > How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into > curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit > speed?

Not I, but last summer (after a lot of laps in the GPL demo) I four wheel drifted a Formula Ford through a high speed corner in the rain, lap after lap :o). I was in heaven, for sure :o))). I started thinking about this already in GP2 and the summer of -97 I sat in a Formula Ford :o))). The first time I sat in a real race car in my life :o). I drove over 100 laps in it. When riding with a friend or a relative, I'm thinking "I'm dead, he or she has no clue how this car works, so if anything goes wrong just a little, I'm dead. Please stay below the recommended speed limit, please." That's what I'm thinking :o). I think a good attitude in daily traffic is to think that you're the only one with a drivers licence. Then you're prepared for everything and you dont get surprised by anything :o). Another good thing to keep in mind is that race car drivers are more often involved in traffic accidents in public roads than non race car drivers. I think sim racers are in this danger zone to, so take it easy among those drivers withour a drivers licence, okay :o). /Christer -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/ (Join one of the online GPL ladders)

Quoted text (14 lines)

>Hi all >Just so I know: >How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into >curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit >speed? >How many of you think about getting into a real race car since they've >started playing GPL? >How many of you find themselves thinking "aah, he should've taken this >one flat out in 2nd" when sitting in the passenger seat whit a friend >or relative driving?

There were posts similar to this one on the Playstation newsgroups concerning Gran Turismo. :>) -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Remove "spam-jammer" to reply Peace, love and Monkeemobiles, Galley

>How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into >curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit >speed? Yeah - found myself aiming several feet inside the apex in my wife's Metro cos it understeers so badly before I realised what I was doing! Tony

Quoted text (24 lines)

> Hi all > Just so I know: > How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into > curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit > speed? > How many of you think about getting into a real racecar since they've > started playing GPL? > How many of you find themselves thinking "ah, he should've taken this > one flat out in 2nd" when sitting in the passenger seat whit a friend > or relative driving? > How many of you think other people on the road have bad AI > programming? > How many of you think Paul Tracy's a little bit overweight for a > racecar driver? > Just wanted to know if I was the only one with those problems... > A. Renault

I know that I look forward to 'takin' certain corners located in my hometown, and have occassionally done 115mph down the interstate (that is all that my little four banger is capable of :) ). Watch out Jeff Gordon, cause here I come! :)

>How many of you find themselves thinking "ah, he should've taken this >one flat out in 2nd" when sitting in the passenger seat whit a friend >or relative driving? This happens to me...

Yea. In my development theres this quick right/left combo that "dips" or drops at the transition from right to left about 20 feet below where it starts and ends from. Ive yet to get it right. Actually if theres ever a track editor that can create new tracks ill be sure to make my loop. Its kind of like a mini-Nurburgring. Even has an uphill run (that you would hit at about 170 in GPL) that makes Flugplatz look like a speed bumb!!!!! Its got to be like at least a 200 foot run that goes at a 45 degree angle. My friends Mustang catches air at only 50 MPH!!!!. Imagine hitting that at 150-70 and they trying to make a long sweeping left. Imagine a cross between the Ring and Spa but only about 4 miles a lap!!! Sound like fun to anyone???? Chris

Hi all Just wanted to add that up here in Quebec we're having a lot of snow this time of year, so (except for the forward drive) I'm having kind of a deja-vu felling when my car starts sliding around... My little Civic DX 1.6 never felt so powerful tho! But it's kinda like having a slo-mo GPL session, if you know what I mean... Anyway, having lots of fun with that handbrake lever... A. Renault

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> Hi all >> Just so I know: >> How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into >> curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit >> speed?

Yes, but I've been doing this since F1GP (In fact ever since I drove a real car!). I did a similar thing at Thruxton, in the dry, but I know where you're coming from! Ditto. Though I do know some some people that can drive, so I just sit back and enjoy (A bit like Rally in-car camera! Sometimes I think they have been put here to amuse us (Or test us!)! Jon. --

I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. Even once while my boss was next to me. I was trying to make a turn before a red light at hit 80 before the turn, and turned in and kept the power down while the rear was fish tailing. Funny though, he kept on talking as though nothing was happening. The 2 people in the back were screaming. True account. -- all opinions expressed while drunk, stoned and flying through clouds. I'm not paranoid. That's just a rumour started by people out to get me. >Hi all >Just so I know: >How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into >curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit >speed?

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:29 +0800, "Pat Megroin" >I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. I just hope I _never_ meet any of you guys while I'm on the road. On the track I may drive as fast as I can and on the limit of control, but anyone driving like that on the public road is an inconsiderate ass who isn't fit to hold a license. Every guy I know believes himself to be a great driver, but what makes a great driver on the road and on the track are very different. Every day I see too many "accidents looking for somewhere to happen" - tires straining and body rolling as someone tries to force their car round a corner a couple of mph faster. A couple of months ago one of these wannabes ondersteered onto the other side of the road and crashed head on into my cousin and her two children. They were all okay, but no thanks to the dummy driving the other car. Surely there are enough ways to hurt yourself in a car without looking for others? Ask them how good a driver they think you are. Cheers! John

I wonder how these drivers are able to defend such driving to them self? There are no yellows on public road, so you cant possibly no what's around a corner. You dont have a helmet. You dont have a non-flamable suit. You dont have a six point seat belt. If you do have anything of the above you should give up driving on public road. Excuses such as "How could I know there would be oil spill in that corner" is just so infantile, especially when you just taken out a whole family. /Christer

Quoted text (26 lines)

> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:29 +0800, "Pat Megroin" > >I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. > I just hope I _never_ meet any of you guys while I'm on the road. On > the track I may drive as fast as I can and on the limit of control, > but anyone driving like that on the public road is an inconsiderate > ass who isn't fit to hold a license. > Every guy I know believes himself to be a great driver, but what makes > a great driver on the road and on the track are very different. Every > day I see too many "accidents looking for somewhere to happen" - tires > straining and body rolling as someone tries to force their car round a > corner a couple of mph faster. A couple of months ago one of these > wannabes ondersteered onto the other side of the road and crashed head > on into my cousin and her two children. They were all okay, but no > thanks to the dummy driving the other car. Surely there are enough > ways to hurt yourself in a car without looking for others? > >The 2 people in the back were screaming. True account. > Ask them how good a driver they think you are. > Cheers! > John

-- http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/index.html (Join one of the online GPL ladders)

Quoted text (9 lines)

> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:29 +0800, "Pat Megroin" > >I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. > I just hope I _never_ meet any of you guys while I'm on the road. On > the track I may drive as fast as I can and on the limit of control, > but anyone driving like that on the public road is an inconsiderate > ass who isn't fit to hold a license.

Amen. Trips

I think we cannot do 4 wheel drift like GPL with consumer cars. These cars are too mild handling, tiny horsepower etc.

Hi John,

Quoted text (26 lines)

>On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:29 +0800, "Pat Megroin" >>I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. >I just hope I _never_ meet any of you guys while I'm on the road. On >the track I may drive as fast as I can and on the limit of control, >but anyone driving like that on the public road is an inconsiderate >ass who isn't fit to hold a license. >Every guy I know believes himself to be a great driver, but what makes >a great driver on the road and on the track are very different. Every >day I see too many "accidents looking for somewhere to happen" - tires >straining and body rolling as someone tries to force their car round a >corner a couple of mph faster. A couple of months ago one of these >wannabes ondersteered onto the other side of the road and crashed head >on into my cousin and her two children. They were all okay, but no >thanks to the dummy driving the other car. Surely there are enough >ways to hurt yourself in a car without looking for others? >>The 2 people in the back were screaming. True account. >Ask them how good a driver they think you are. >Cheers! >John

Thanks John, I thought it was just me, I was thinking reading the previous posts, thank goodness my wife and kids don't drive on the same road they do. Surprising how some people think they are good drivers on the road travelling at race speeds, I have pulled one or two of their bodies out of mangled cars over the years and they don't look so good then. Cheers Mark

Quoted text (9 lines)

> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:29 +0800, "Pat Megroin" > >I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. > I just hope I _never_ meet any of you guys while I'm on the road. On > the track I may drive as fast as I can and on the limit of control, > but anyone driving like that on the public road is an inconsiderate > ass who isn't fit to hold a license.

Agreed. I actually enjoy driving GPL in the PRC *much* more that commuting to work. In GPL everyone has consideration for you (and you for them) and usually leave enough room to race. On the street, no one leaves an open room for easy merging, tailgates and speeds. Man, its pretty pathetic. I drive sports car ('82 Camaro V6) and I think people actually follow me then quickly pass when they find out I'm not gonna go any faster. 1-8KMs over the speed limit is enough. I go that much over to stay out of the merge lane and not irritate everyone -- you don't want to see these drivers merge. What amazes me are the parents driving like manics with their children in the cars. I think I have more consideration for their children than they do! I believe I'm a good driver (on the road): 1. I leave at least 2-3 seconds between me and the car in front. 2. Allow people to merge in front of me (sometimes 2 cars at a time, if the driver behind me is tailgating). 3. I don't pass the car in front just to get ahead of it. You know those drivers that try to fill up all gaps in traffic trying to get ahead. On the track: 1. Give racing room; Pass when you can. 2. Have fun. Thanks for letting me vent. I'm not looking forward to the drive home, but the GPL Series race this evening will be a blast. -- -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Quoted text (7 lines)

>On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:29 +0800, "Pat Megroin" >>I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. >I just hope I _never_ meet any of you guys while I'm on the road. On >the track I may drive as fast as I can and on the limit of control, >but anyone driving like that on the public road is an inconsiderate >ass who isn't fit to hold a license.

Thank you. While this is probably a troll (Pat Megroin?), dopes like this in their Secretary Special Wanna-Be Sports Cars have destroyed my love for riding motorcycles on the street (I'm still a fanatical dirt rider). It's dangerous enough in a car. Between shmucks like Pat Megroin and yuppie moms in minivans talking on the phone, swatting the ankle biters and driving at the same time (in that order), you hardly stand a chance of enjoying yourself on a motorcycle. Hopefully, I don't need to add delusional GPL players to my list of people to avoid on the street. They're probably harder to spot in thier Taurus', Intrepids and Accords than the more typical ***ers.

Quoted text (9 lines)

>On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:29 +0800, "Pat Megroin" >>I always try to have my starion turbo sideways while exiting a corner. >I just hope I _never_ meet any of you guys while I'm on the road. On >the track I may drive as fast as I can and on the limit of control, >but anyone driving like that on the public road is an inconsiderate >ass who isn't fit to hold a license.

Hi John, I agree with you that you shouldn't be risking anyone's life while you're using public roads. It's a shame that there'll always be someone stupid enough to risk other people's life by driving like he owns the road. Lost 2 good friends that way, I should know. I do not agree with this kind of driving. That said it happens sometimes that I act like an idiot, and I think that racing sims have something to do with that. So I was asking if racing sim have changed driving habits for other people too. I'm not saying it's a good thing, in fact I know it's plain stupid. BTW I wouldn't do anything stupid while there are cars (or worse: pedestrians!) around me, or when I can't see the exit of a curve. An example would be the exit I use to get off the highway. It's just been re-asphalted and has some nice banking. Oh and there are no trees or buildings so you can see everything from the enterance to the exit or that curve. I can't help it, I have to hear a little tire squeeling when I go through there. I shouldn't, but I do... And as I've said in another post at this time of year we have much snow, so I can slide the car around quite a bit without speeding. I'm not looking for excuses, I don't have any. I just hope I'll still be here to read your posts in year 2000... eheh! So to all: Be careful while you're driving, don't risk anybody's life (including your own) and... stop usage of all racing sims if you're unable to cope with the urges it produces! A. Renault

> >How many of you GPL'ers are already throwing their street cars into > >curves trying to get a perfect four wheel drift and maximum exit > >speed? > I think we cannot do 4 wheel drift like GPL with consumer cars. > These cars are too mild handling, tiny horsepower etc. I've four-wheel drifted dozens of times in the snow and in the wet, and once in the dry. When you flog those horses to within an inch of their miserable lives and then enter a nice bend in a sufficiently aggressive manner there's the understeer, then lift-off oversteer. Result: a very ugly four wheel drift. -- Anssi Lehtinen

Guessing the people replying to my "sideways" post are over 30. It was onto a 1 way street at 12:30 in morning. Probably explains my %60 no claim discount and never ever claimed for an accident. -- all opinions expressed while drunk, stoned and flying through clouds. I'm not paranoid. That's just a rumour started by people out to get me.

> Hi all Hi Antoine Me, but only at racing circuits on trackdays days organised by a club :-) Going 'bike racing this year (one make series for near stock MuZ Skorpion 660cc singles) if that's any good :-)) All the time, especially when I'm on one of the 'bikes rather than in the car :-))) But not as much as "big Nige" :-)))) -- Jonathon "JayGee" Green "Death to all fanatics!"

That is a combination of what I understeer and snap oversteer, and wouldnot be a four wheel drift. Afour wheel drift is when all four wheels have a equal slip angle and cars will go thru a corner faster when this happens. Kepping the car balanced is the key to this, it can be done with a normal passenge car by keeping the car balanced and not using aggressive inputs to the throttle or brakes, which will unbalance the car. -- David Robinson Egan's Law The Pace car will always go 2 MPH slower then your race car idles in first gear.

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:30:27 -0000, "Mark Fisher" >Surprising how some people think they are good drivers on the road >travelling at race speeds, I have pulled one or two of their bodies out of >mangled cars over the years and they don't look so good then. I've always found that within seconds of getting into a car with someone (me as passenger) I know whether I'm comfortable - just the observations they make, attention paid to mirrors, that kind of thing. You watch a dog run toward the road and disappear behind a bus shelter, and you KNOW that two seconds later it's going to "suddenly" appear and run onto the road, but the guy driving hasn't seen it so you end up peeling your face of the windscreen after an unnecessary "emergency stop". Most people's definition of "Being a good driver" seems to take into account clipping apexes, chirping the tires away from the lights and going as fast round a blnd corner as possible, but misses those insignificant details like actually watching what's going on around you, taking the time to make that really small arm movement to use your indicators, or letting people into traffic. Don't worry, my annoyance at ***driving is getting better now that I've moved out of Edinburgh, honest! :-) Cheers! John

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:12:11 +0800, "Pat Megroin" >Guessing the people replying to my "sideways" post are over 30. It was onto >a 1 way street at 12:30 in morning. Probably explains my %60 no claim >discount and never ever claimed for an accident. Funny, I could have sworn you wrote that you "always" try to have your Starion Turbo sideways. That doesn't exactly put across the impression of the isolated incident you're trying to retreat to now. Still, no matter. Australia is far enough away for me not to worry, although I would prefer you didn't live in Canberra as my sister is there. I'd hate to think she was returning from the pub at 12:30am after a few drinks and needed to cross that one way street. Cheers! John

Quoted text (14 lines)

> I've always found that within seconds of getting into a car with > someone (me as passenger) I know whether I'm comfortable - just the > observations they make, attention paid to mirrors, that kind of thing. > You watch a dog run toward the road and disappear behind a bus > shelter, and you KNOW that two seconds later it's going to "suddenly" > appear and run onto the road, but the guy driving hasn't seen it so > you end up peeling your face of the windscreen after an unnecessary > "emergency stop". > Most people's definition of "Being a good driver" seems to take into > account clipping apexes, chirping the tires away from the lights and > going as fast round a blnd corner as possible, but misses those > insignificant details like actually watching what's going on around > you, taking the time to make that really small arm movement to use > your indicators, or letting people into traffic.

Exactly. "Situational awareness" is the key to good driving in traffic. Unfortunately, I get that uncomfortable feeling every time I get in the car with my wife behind the wheel (which isn't too often). I've tried to teach her all the little things like not changing lanes into somebody's blind spot, noticing people in parked cars, avoiding lanes where there's an upcoming stream of merging traffic, etc. This stuff and the fact that her gear changes are seemingly random drive me nuts. My annoyance has increased since I've moved from Southern California to Boulder, Colorado. People here think there is a grace period of about 10 seconds after the light turns red. Incredibly dangerous. Dave Ewing

Hey Dave, My wife isn't too bad... and I got her to take up autocrossing, can you believe that?? As for the traffic light, Boston was the same way. The drivers there were the most confrontational I've EVER seen... Chicagoans are polite in comparison. I'm just surprised Boulder is worse than SoCal. It seems mellower, but I guess not... or the drivers are space cadets. -Dave Schwabe "If you're in control, you're not going fast enough," - Parnelli Jones (speaking about racing, not driving on the road) :-)

Quoted text (15 lines)

> Unfortunately, I get that uncomfortable feeling every time I get in the > car with my wife behind the wheel (which isn't too often). I've tried to > teach her all the little things like not changing lanes into somebody's > blind spot, noticing people in parked cars, avoiding lanes where there's > an upcoming stream of merging traffic, etc. This stuff and the fact > that her gear changes are seemingly random drive me nuts. > > Don't worry, my annoyance at ***driving is getting better now that > > I've moved out of Edinburgh, honest! :-) > My annoyance has increased since I've moved from Southern California to > Boulder, Colorado. People here think there is a grace period of about > 10 seconds after the light turns red. Incredibly dangerous. > Dave Ewing

Hi John, >Most people's definition of "Being a good driver" seems to take into >account clipping apexes, chirping the tires away from the lights and >going as fast round a blnd corner as possible, but misses those >insignificant details like actually watching what's going on around >you, taking the time to make that really small arm movement to use >your indicators, or letting people into traffic. Like the guy in the BMW that overtook me today in excess of 100mph whilst holding his phone to his right ear, obviously paying a lot of attention. Or even <shudder mode on> anticpate another drivers action and act on that anticiapation <shudder mode off> Well Edinburgh wasn't that bad when I was there a year ago, yes a year ago, I have driven in far worse <G>. Take Care Mark

Hi Dave,

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Exactly. "Situational awareness" is the key to good driving in traffic. >Unfortunately, I get that uncomfortable feeling every time I get in the >car with my wife behind the wheel (which isn't too often). I've tried to >teach her all the little things like not changing lanes into somebody's >blind spot, noticing people in parked cars, avoiding lanes where there's >an upcoming stream of merging traffic, etc. This stuff and the fact >that her gear changes are seemingly random drive me nuts.

Coupled with this is forward planning based on the current situation and observation links to help anticipate what is around the corner, ie. all the dustbins (trash cans) are out so you can expect the refuse collection lorry to be parked around the next bend, or a cyclist who looks over his shoulder is about to turn.... Anyway this isn't alt.safer.driving so I will get off my pedestal <G>. BTW my wife is actually quite a good driver, but she still does 0-60 in 2.3 secs <G>. (won't drive with me as a passenger unless I am drunk, don't know why <G>) Cheers Mark

> As for the traffic light, Boston was the same way. The drivers there > were the most confrontational I've EVER seen... Chicagoans are polite in > comparison. Yeah, I've driven in Boston. It is pretty wild. I love the way everyone tries to avoid making eye contact when you are in a merge situation so that they can shut you out without feeling guilty about it. I've seen numerous people in Boston turn left through a red light from the center lane. The other strange thing about Boston, they have green arrows that don't signify a protected left turn (i.e., oncoming traffic is also green), contrary to everywhere else in the U.S.A. I guess this is just to lure tourists into intersections and head on collisions. Definitely the latter. People are generally mellow and polite, and unlike Boston, are good about letting you merge. But there is something about the red light syndrome here that is VERY noticeable. Dave Ewing

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:47:03 -0000, "Mark Fisher" >Like the guy in the BMW that overtook me today in excess of 100mph whilst >holding his phone to his right ear, obviously paying a lot of attention. C'mon Mark, you know when you buy a BMW you get a certificate of immunity from any and all traffic regulations - or so my observations of BMW drivers would have me believe :-) Ha, neeeeeeever happen. For a start you've got to actually be paying attention to what's going on around you before that can happen. If someone can't flap a wrist at an indicator, how are they gonna look around and then think about what they saw? Oh hell yes, Kuala Lumpur has to be far and away the most mental place I have driven in - don't, that's my only advice. Taxis are so cheap (by our standards) that the enormous risk of driving just isn't worth it. Edinburgh isn't too bad overall, but relative to the more country environment I'm staying in now it bugs the hell out of me when I'm back in there. Cheers! John

Canberra here i come. he he Guess you have never driven in western australia. Every Light is a drag race. Every corner is chance to have the car sideways. When i started driving i was amazed at what other people were doing and say i would never be do such a thing. But driving for 7 years from 17 and having soo much bad driving around me has taught me that no-one else is going to do a thing about it. I dont risk lives but on an occasion give the car stick. I am always looking ahead to see what is coming, looking at either side of the road to see if someone is reversing or entering the road. That explains me never having an accident around people you would say to put me to shame in BAD driving. -- all opinions expressed while drunk, stoned and flying through clouds. I'm not paranoid. That's just a rumour started by people out to get me. >>Funny, I could have sworn you wrote that you "always" try to have your >Starion Turbo sideways. That doesn't exactly put across the impression >of the isolated incident you're trying to retreat to now. >Still, no matter. Australia is far enough away for me not to worry, >although I would prefer you didn't live in Canberra as my sister is >there. I'd hate to think she was returning from the pub at 12:30am >after a few drinks and needed to cross that one way street. >Cheers! >John

And there's me, not even able to drive yet! I hope too much GPL won't ***up my driving test :-) Cheers! Graeme Nash - Survivor of 6 Tunisian Taxi rides, December 1998 :-) [link lost in import] ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:31:37 +0800, "Pat Megroin" >Canberra here i come. he he >Guess you have never driven in western australia. No, I have driven there, and elsewhere. Must have missed that somehow. As it is anywhere else in the world, it just depends on the dolt behind the wheel. If you want to show off by such "macho" talk on the group that's one thing. If you really do try and have the car sideways at every corner then you really are an ass and a danger to yourself and anyone else around you. I can't see how that sort of driving could possibly be safe. Keep it for when you're out in the bush (for the benefit of the Americans, that's a different sort of "bush" than you're thinking of...!) Cheers! John

Maybe everyone should give this a try. When you first started driving GPL, you know how slow you had to go to be able to drive accurately. Well, when driving your street car, you don't need to speed to drive a perfect line. You can still clip a PERFECT apex while driving the speed limit. Is it any less enjoyable? If you drive the same road every day and can hit every apex exactly, does it not feel good. I drive a Porsche Turbo and I still think the main part of having fun is driving the road perfectly. Anyone who does a four wheel drift on the public streets is just plain idiotic. Where is your margin for error. What happens when your in the corner, and the car coming the other way has slightly crossed the center line. On the track you don't have cars coming at you. Or how many times in GPL have you hit a spun car while in the middle of a corner. When you are at the limit, it is very difficult to do anything more that keep the car in the corner. Well, sorry for ranting, just wanted to say have fun but keep it slow. Eric Franzen

Quoted text (28 lines)

>On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:30:27 -0000, "Mark Fisher" >>Surprising how some people think they are good drivers on the road >>travelling at race speeds, I have pulled one or two of their bodies out of >>mangled cars over the years and they don't look so good then. >I've always found that within seconds of getting into a car with >someone (me as passenger) I know whether I'm comfortable - just the >observations they make, attention paid to mirrors, that kind of thing. >You watch a dog run toward the road and disappear behind a bus >shelter, and you KNOW that two seconds later it's going to "suddenly" >appear and run onto the road, but the guy driving hasn't seen it so >you end up peeling your face of the windscreen after an unnecessary >"emergency stop". >Most people's definition of "Being a good driver" seems to take into >account clipping apexes, chirping the tires away from the lights and >going as fast round a blnd corner as possible, but misses those >insignificant details like actually watching what's going on around >you, taking the time to make that really small arm movement to use >your indicators, or letting people into traffic. >Don't worry, my annoyance at ***driving is getting better now that >I've moved out of Edinburgh, honest! :-) >Cheers! >John