Can a racing simulator prepare you for the real thing?

Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two completely different activities who have no similarities at all. Try this thought experiment. Collect at random 200 people who have never driven a real race car or a racing simulator, but drive to work every day in their street car. Let 100 of them spend 10 hours a week (this is how much the hard core sim racer practice) for two years driving a racing simulator with a wheel, pedals and a gear stick, for example GPL with a Thrustmaster Formula Pro wheel. Let the other 100 continue to just drive their street car to work. After these two years let all 200 take a three day course in driving a real race car, where there will be timed laps on the last day. It goes without saying that the 200 people will be evenly spread in that time chart, cause driving a racing simulator can not possibly prepare you for the real thing, now can it :o)? /Christer -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/ (Join one of the online GPL ladders)

I don't know, you learn when to get back on the gas after you hit the apex and all that stuff. You'd understand the physics of the car somewhat. So in someways a racing sim can prepare you for the real thing. Racer X Veteran Sim Racer Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

I have done a lot of Sim racing, ICR2 mainly that was until GPL anyway. I haven't driven any thing better than a Go Kart or a Car, but I would say that sim racing does help. Whenever I go karting I always have a long session on the PC, as I got faster in ICR2 I got faster at karting. You learn trail braking, how weight transfer affects the car etc. I still like karting more than sim racing, nothing beats it. Scott

>Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two >completely different activities who have no similarities at all. My eight year old son (Michael) has taken an interest in racing sims - he now has my old T2 & can do a low 1:10 (with manual gears) at the 'Glen. Before GPL he was a GP2 fan. (GP2 was the ideal intoduction because of the driving aids). For his 8th birthday he went karting with a friend for the first time. This introductory session was for 8-16 year olds. His friend went out & held up the older guys as expected (no overtaking allowed in this session) and was frequently asked to pull over to allow the other guys to get some decent practice. When Michael went out (there was only 1 kart small enough so they had to share) we thougt the same would happen. Only he pulled away from the older guys to catch them up (i.e. lap them). Either he is the next Schuey or the experience gained from PC sims gave him an advantage over similarly inexperienced kart racers. Similarly I comfortably won our works karting event in my 3rd time in a kart - others had competed in a number of corporate events (that's sales managers for you). My only experience of motor sport is some road rallying back in the 80s - hardly sufficient to really get to grips with a sliding kart. So I believe PC Sims do help prepare a person for handling a sliding car - experience that cannot be gained in a normal road car on public roads. Sure it lacks the physical elements of real racing, plus the fear factor of it being real, but I believe it can have positive contribution towards learning to race a real car as PC flight sims can help someone save money on flight lessons. Cheers Tony

Ah but it CAN help you prepare for individual tracks. Several F1 drivers admitted playing F1GP2 to "learn" the layout of tracks they had no experience at. And this summer a Nascar Winston Cup driver who was injured, Steve Park I believe, said on one of those Speedvision shows, that while injured, his team got him a wheel with paddle shifters(probably TM grand prix) so he could drive the tracks until his legs healed enough to walk and drive again. Busch Champion Dale Earnhardt Jr. has been known to run NROS races. So while driving a sim may NOT prepare YOU to be a world class driver, it will shorten any track preparation time you need to learn an available track. dave henrie >Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two >completely different activities who have no similarities at all. >Try this ladders)

A sim teaches you the theory. Just like learning aerobatics in a plane, you need to understand the theory before you do it. If you've done a loop in a flying sim you know what to expect (visually) when you do the real thing, you don't find yourself trying to remember when to apply the throttle and when to throttle back, its already become a reflex rather than a conscious action. Knowing the theory beforehand leaves spare brain capacity to deal with the actuality of the situation. Its for that very reason that part of your training on aircaraft for an instrument rating can be simulator time (I'm talking PC based non moving i.e. no hydraullic rams etc). All airline pilots learn to fly their particular type on simlators first - for the reasons I've mentioned above. Your proposed test with the 200 would be very interesting. I suspect that you would have a high percentace of good lap times from the "sim 100" than you would from the "daily driver 100". Of course some of the daily drivers would make low lap times becasue some of them would have a natural ability. It would also be very interesting to see the results if you didn't do the 3 day driving course. cheers -Lindsay

I think it can prepare you somewhat. I never went from sims to real but i went the other way. I drove a mini-sprint of my friends several times (when he was sick or unable to race) and was pretty good at it. I was able to make the main a few times and once managed a top five finish. This experiance i think helps me in GPL especially because trying to controll a powerful car on dirt is alot harder than pavement. Now im not the best at GPL, ill admit that, but i was able to go fast sooner than if i had no experiance at all. Now the way i see it, if real world racing helped me in the virtual world, then it should work the other way. Being a good sim racer will never fully prepare you for driving a real car...but it will definately help. The part i find that alot of people dont understand in sims is setups. This, in my opinion, is the most realistic part of them. GPL is a prime example because the setups are more complicated than N1, N2, or ICR2. Just my opinion. Chris

Hi Tony, Same thing happened to me, sort of. First time I ever went on a "proper" kart, I broke the track lap record by 3 hundredths. This was after 2 years of F1GP and a year of GP2. Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

If it wasn't forF1GP, I would never have been at Paul Ricard last year driving Formula Renaults ...maybe. It was Karting that best prepared me for that experience, but whether or not Sim Racing prepared me for Karting is a good question. My first time in Karting was ages ago... maybe early 1996, when I was only playing F1GP. That sim certainly helped me to understand that turning left and right made the Kart point in a left or right direction, respectivly... brilliant! But really, the most important thing it prepared me for was the 'racing line' and also how to apply throttle (wheelspin) and brake effectivly (without locking up)! I certainly had a good advantage in those early races, but since then my amazing talent has taken over and no-one has been able to touch me since :o) Rob

On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:51:29 +0100, Christer Andersson

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>Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two >completely different activities who have no similarities at all. >Try this thought experiment. Collect at random 200 people who have never driven >a real race car or a racing simulator, but drive to work every day in their >street car. Let 100 of them spend 10 hours a week (this is how much the hard >core sim racer practice) for two years driving a racing simulator with a wheel, >pedals and a gear stick, for example GPL with a Thrustmaster Formula Pro wheel. >Let the other 100 continue to just drive their street car to work. After these >two years let all 200 take a three day course in driving a real race car, where >there will be timed laps on the last day. It goes without saying that the 200 >people will be evenly spread in that time chart, cause driving a racing >simulator can not possibly prepare you for the real thing, now can it :o)?

Depends on whether you lock them away with their sim for that year so they can't drive any real cars during that time. In that case they'd never see the first corner because of total lack of physical experience. IMO, all you can get from a sim (any sim, be it flight, racing or bungee jumping) is *some* theoretical knowledge, and only if the game is halfway accurate. Sorry to dissapoint all the GPL kids with that but you *really* don't learn how to *drive* with those things, that's what racing schools or for the younger audience driving schools are for. --Tel

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>Hi Tony, >>Only he pulled away from the older >>guys to catch them up (i.e. lap them). >Same thing happened to me, sort of. First time I ever went on a "proper" >kart, I broke the track lap record by 3 hundredths. This was after 2 >years of F1GP and a year of GP2. >Cheers! >Graeme Nash

Thanks Graeme, Just remind me I am twice your age by comparing yourself with my son!!! Cheers Tony

Just for the record, both Dale Earnhardt JR. and Steve Park have stated that they rely on auto sims (in particular N2/99) to stay sharp on new tracks that they are not familiar with. The phsyical dynamics of racing will never be duplicated artificially in a sim, but any non-arcade racing sim will offer the opportunities to learn the mechanics of racing without the threat of injury. Almost all good driving schools wil set your ***down in a sim and critique things you may be doing incorrectly before they send you out on the track.. No sim will teach you to race cars, but it sure will not hurt or hamper any potential racer in any way. From an honest-to-god Racer.

Can't be all bad - you're not the one who spun the lead away at Spa! :-) *Cheers* Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion 1999 IGPS GPL Series Leader <----------- Just had to say that TR!

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> Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two > completely different activities who have no similarities at all. > Try this thought experiment. Collect at random 200 people who have never driven > a real race car or a racing simulator, but drive to work every day in their > street car. Let 100 of them spend 10 hours a week (this is how much the hard > core sim racer practice) for two years driving a racing simulator with a wheel, > pedals and a gear stick, for example GPL with a Thrustmaster Formula Pro wheel. > Let the other 100 continue to just drive their street car to work. After these > two years let all 200 take a three day course in driving a real race car, where > there will be timed laps on the last day. It goes without saying that the 200 > people will be evenly spread in that time chart, cause driving a racing > simulator can not possibly prepare you for the real thing, now can it :o)?

Heavy playing of GPL has seemed to improve my lap times at the local go-kart track!!!!!

Love to disagree here - any practice is good practice. Your 100 sim racers will dominate in your little hypothetical example here. >Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two >completely different activities who have no similarities at all. >Try this thought experiment. Collect at random 200 people who have never driven >a real race car or a racing simulator, but drive to work every day in their >street car. Let 100 of them spend 10 hours a week (this is how much the hard >core sim racer practice) for two years driving a racing simulator with a wheel, >pedals and a gear stick, for example GPL with a Thrustmaster Formula Pro wheel. >Let the other 100 continue to just drive their street car to work. After these >two years let all 200 take a three day course in driving a real race car, where >there will be timed laps on the last day. It goes without saying that the 200

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>people will be evenly spread in that time chart, cause driving a racing >simulator can not possibly prepare you for the real thing, now can it :o)? >/Christer >-- >http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online >racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause

noone >has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). >http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/ (Join one of the online GPL >ladders)

>>Just remind me I am twice your age by comparing yourself with my son!!! >Can't be all bad - you're not the one who spun the lead away at Spa! Impetuous youth - I can still smell the tyre smoke Cheers Tony 1999 IGPS GPL Series 2nd place 6 points behind "bonus boy" Nash

I agree, Ben. Although the sim can't develop all the skills you need - it will develop some of them, particularly hand-eye coordination, speed of reaction and anticipation of the physics Andy

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> Love to disagree here - any practice is good practice. Your 100 sim racers > will dominate in your little hypothetical example here. > >Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two > >completely different activities who have no similarities at all. > >Try this thought experiment. Collect at random 200 people who have never > driven > >a real race car or a racing simulator, but drive to work every day in their > >street car. Let 100 of them spend 10 hours a week (this is how much the > hard > >core sim racer practice) for two years driving a racing simulator with a > wheel, > >pedals and a gear stick, for example GPL with a Thrustmaster Formula Pro > wheel. > >Let the other 100 continue to just drive their street car to work. After > these > >two years let all 200 take a three day course in driving a real race car, > where > >there will be timed laps on the last day. It goes without saying that the > 200 > >people will be evenly spread in that time chart, cause driving a racing > >simulator can not possibly prepare you for the real thing, now can it :o)? > >/Christer > >-- > >http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online > >racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause > noone > >has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). > >http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/ (Join one of the online GPL > >ladders)

Last summer I was at the Jim Russell Racing Drivers School at Donington Park, England. I drove a Formula Vauxhall for a week and won the race. I had some prior karting experience, and I drive my road car like a racing car (it's quite a good car, but no racing car 106 GTI). But that's all for my experience. Under the 14 guys I beated, were 5 guys with quite some experience. One of them had been quite succesfull in South African Formula Ford. So what made me up for the job? 1. My love for racing 2. My road experience 3. My youth (driving with my uncle at 300 and watching his every move) 4. Driving racing simulators For one the instructors thought I had an incredible car control, being able to throw the car sideways at 160+ and keeping control. That car control is something that's partly in you and partly trained. My training came from the racing simulators. Simulators give you the opportunity to practise withouw crashing your car (good practise for Verstappen). All you need more are some balls, mine probably came from my uncles drives to France which were mostly done at 250+. The man is an absolute racing freak, and drives THE cars to satisfy racing needs. Another thing you learn in racing simulators (at least when you are good at them) is driving and thinking at the same time. That was one of the reasons I won the race. When I drove the FV for the first time, it immediately reminded me of the GPL demo I had been playing the month before. When I drive GPL now, it reminds me of my marvelous trip to England. GPL is very realistic, although I still think that the grip level is just a little bit too low. No car will start sliding when you enter a corner at a balanced throttle at low speed. That car in GPL does that very thing, and I think it's unrealistic. Let's just hope that a modern F1 at the GPL quality level will appear in the near future. For me, GPL is great but I miss the high tech and driving againt the Mika's, Michael and Jean. Hill, Clark, etc. were great, but for a young person like me there's no real band.

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> I agree, Ben. Although the sim can't develop all the skills you need - > it will develop some of them, particularly hand-eye coordination, speed > of reaction and anticipation of the physics > Andy > > Love to disagree here - any practice is good practice. Your 100 sim racers > > will dominate in your little hypothetical example here. > > >Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two > > >completely different activities who have no similarities at all. > > >Try this thought experiment. Collect at random 200 people who have never > > driven > > >a real race car or a racing simulator, but drive to work every day in their > > >street car. Let 100 of them spend 10 hours a week (this is how much the > > hard > > >core sim racer practice) for two years driving a racing simulator with a > > wheel, > > >pedals and a gear stick, for example GPL with a Thrustmaster Formula Pro > > wheel. > > >Let the other 100 continue to just drive their street car to work. After > > these > > >two years let all 200 take a three day course in driving a real race car, > > where > > >there will be timed laps on the last day. It goes without saying that the > > 200 > > >people will be evenly spread in that time chart, cause driving a racing > > >simulator can not possibly prepare you for the real thing, now can it :o)? > > >/Christer > > >-- > > >http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online > > >racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause > > noone > > >has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). > > >http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/ (Join one of the online GPL > > >ladders)

Well, I can say I'm quite good at racing sims and isn't it interesting that when I go racing go-karts(well, I know, it's not a race car, but still) with my friend, we always leave the wanna-bee (the ones that put sport suspension on their cars and drive fast and dangerous) racers a lap or more down in a 10min session ? ;o) (btw. he's a great/fast simracer too). While you also need guts to drive 200kmh around a corner in faster race cars, IMO simulations teach you proper cornering techniques, checking your mirrors (or turning your head ;o)), and maybe steering with throttle, but that's it. Sims (haven't seen one yet) don't teach you how to do heel-toe braking on manual transmission ,they don't give you real track experience. But I think really fast simracers could have a slight advanatge over other drivers on the D-day :o) Tadej Krevh

: Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two : completely different activities who have no similarities at all. I disagree. I did a racing school at Nazareth speedway last summer. I have been driving racing sims for years and know the "proper way" through corners etc (something I think someone with sim or real racing training is used to). I was one of the fastest, if not THE fastest around the oval. I think the difference was that I was comfortable much quicker than the others. I had driven karts and had a short Formula 2000 class before this one (on a road course) which also may have helped. Since I got comfortable quicker, I could start pushing earlier. It was a blast. At the local karting track, I had been kinda fast but there was one guy who I work with that I couldn't beat. After GPL came out, I drove it incessantly and got used to tossing the car, using the throttle to control steering etc. When we went to the kart track a month later, I was faster and felt like I was much smoother. He said that my style had changed completely. A sim can teach you lots of things that will improve your times elsewhere. Proper line technique through corners, car balance (sort of), braking (sort of) and something someone else mentioned: thinking while driving. Racecraft takes a long time to get used to if you have never driven a sim. After you learn the "car control" part of racing, you must enter the world of "what it takes to win". Another thing entirely... How do you pass?, where do you pass?, Where DON'T you pass? etc. J.

On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:51:29 +0100, Christer Andersson I think it's an interesting question, the influence of racing sinulation on real life driving. I think you can train responsiveness and a lot about racing (real life and simulator) has to do with responsiveness. I also think u get more used to aproaching corners with high (on the edge) speeds without wetting your pants. But I think your thought experience is useless, because a thought experiment only has value if it adds to the clearification of a problem, and you're just restating the problem in another form. grx,Hans

What would be a better thought experiment then? /Christer

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> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:51:29 +0100, Christer Andersson > I think it's an interesting question, the influence of racing > sinulation on real life driving. I think you can train responsiveness > and a lot about racing (real life and simulator) has to do with > responsiveness. I also think u get more used to aproaching corners > with high (on the edge) speeds without wetting your pants. > But I think your thought experience is useless, because a thought > experiment only has value if it adds to the clearification of a > problem, and you're just restating the problem in another form. > grx,Hans

-- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/ (Join one of the online GPL ladders)

With theoretical knowledge I guess you mean they would benefit just as much if the just study all the racing literature there is, right? /Christer

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> Depends on whether you lock them away with their sim for that year so > they can't drive any real cars during that time. In that case they'd > never see the first corner because of total lack of physical > experience. IMO, all you can get from a sim (any sim, be it flight, > racing or bungee jumping) is *some* theoretical knowledge, and only if > the game is halfway accurate. Sorry to dissapoint all the GPL kids > with that but you *really* don't learn how to *drive* with those > things, that's what racing schools or for the younger audience driving > schools are for. > --Tel

-- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)). http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/ (Join one of the online GPL ladders)

:-) Either way, it's still the two of us flying the flag for the UK atop the table - and all those yanks are behind us....! <grin> Cheers! Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 1998 Xoom GP2 League Champion

On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:51:29 +0100, Christer Andersson >Of course not! Driving a racing simulator and driving a race car is two >completely different activities who have no similarities at all. This post must be made tongue in cheek, surely? "No similarities at all"? Meaning they are _completely_ dissimilar in your mind? You must recognise the absurdity of that statement surely? Racing simulations can teach a LOT about how to drive a real car. Of course they can never _completely_ prepare you for the real thing, but they can teach you race strategy, correct driving line, fundamentals of setup, slipstreaming - basically anything that is modelled in a sim can be learned to some degree. What cannot be taught is just exactly how scary it is to drive a racecar at or near the limit, but then that only comes with experience. People who believe they push their road car "hard" are almost invariably horrified at just how much further a car must be pushed on the track, and not only in fits and starts but consistently on the ragged edge and never beyond. People will naturally fall into a gaussian distribution of talent even with no practice, so what you will find is the talented sim drivers at the top, then the talented car drivers, then the others. If you measured on the first day you would find the gap even more pronounced, since driving your car to work tells you almost nothing about what you need to do in a racecar, whereas sim-racing tells you quite a lot. Cheers! John