Soundcards, PCI vs ISA?

All, Just wondering if anyone knows what the actual differences, advantages etc regarding PCI vs ISA soundcards? I have an ISA AWE 32 in my old machine and a SB128 PCI in the one I just built. (having problems setting it up btw). I have heard the following regarding the PCI type: 1, Uses less CPU cycles = better frame rates 2, Will not work with older games? Now I wonder if the less CPU cycles used is really an issue, is it enough to make any real difference? I'm considering getting another SB and I think I may just go for the ISA version this time, what do you guys think? TIA Trev

>Just wondering if anyone knows what the actual differences, advantages >etc regarding PCI vs ISA soundcards? It is worth remembering that the ISA bus is stuck forever at 8Mhz/8bit while the PCI bus hovers around 33Mhz/32bit. At some point, it may not be possible to shove all the required audio data through that bottleneck. My SBLive! does 32 simultaneous WAV file playbacks, and up to 16 of them are used at any given time by GPL for example. The joystick port also needs to be sending data through that same connection, and in some games it is also being used for MIDI signals to drive the force feedback. That could be a challenge for a soundcard on an ISA bus, no matter how advanced. ~Daxe "religion is remedial spirituality" -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com/ The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! -----------== Over 66,000 Groups, Plus a Dedicated Binaries Server ==----------

>>Just wondering if anyone knows what the actual differences, advantages >>etc regarding PCI vs ISA soundcards? >It is worth remembering that the ISA bus is stuck forever at 8Mhz/8bit while >the PCI bus hovers around 33Mhz/32bit. At some point, it may not be possible First off; I agree with just about all your points except the above. 1) Many BIOS' allow you to alter the bus speed of your ISA bus (though it's NOT recommended since most cards won't tolerate a bus speed of higher than 8MHz); 2) The ISA bus actually supports up to 16 bits (32bits with VL extensions). Most ISA sound cards made in the last 3 years or so are 16-bit, as evidenced by their having two connectors with a slot between them. This is what allows them to have an IRQ of higher than 7. But I agree that PCI is the way to go for another reason: VERY soon the ISA bus will go away. Already, many P2 boards that still have ISA slots, only have 2 - maybe 3 - and will go away entirely by the end of the year (in NEW boards, anyway). "Gunner"

In Finnish game magazine "Pelit" was mentioned that games get 10-30% faster when they compared a basic ISA sound card to modern PCI soundcards! VM

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>>>Just wondering if anyone knows what the actual differences, advantages >>>etc regarding PCI vs ISA soundcards? >>It is worth remembering that the ISA bus is stuck forever at 8Mhz/8bit >while >>the PCI bus hovers around 33Mhz/32bit. At some point, it may not be >possible > First off; I agree with just about all your points except the above. > 1) Many BIOS' allow you to alter the bus speed of your ISA bus (though >it's NOT recommended since most cards won't tolerate a bus speed of higher >than 8MHz); > 2) The ISA bus actually supports up to 16 bits (32bits with VL >extensions). Most ISA sound cards made in the last 3 years or so are

16-bit, >as evidenced by their having two connectors with a slot between them. This >is what allows them to have an IRQ of higher than 7. > But I agree that PCI is the way to go for another reason: VERY soon the >ISA bus will go away. Already, many P2 boards that still have ISA slots, >only have 2 - maybe 3 - and will go away entirely by the end of the year (in >NEW boards, anyway). >"Gunner"

I've heard two additional but conflicting points which may or may not be true... 1) Having any ISA ports in use at all will slow down the computer. 2) If you have a PCI graphics card like Voodoo2, then the PCI bus will get flooded with textures and it may be an idea to put others devices on the ISA and USB buses to spread the load. Cheers, Paul

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> In Finnish game magazine "Pelit" was mentioned that games get 10-30% faster > when they compared a basic ISA sound card to modern PCI soundcards! > VM > >>>Just wondering if anyone knows what the actual differences, advantages > >>>etc regarding PCI vs ISA soundcards? > >>It is worth remembering that the ISA bus is stuck forever at 8Mhz/8bit > >while > >>the PCI bus hovers around 33Mhz/32bit. At some point, it may not be > >possible > > First off; I agree with just about all your points except the above. > > 1) Many BIOS' allow you to alter the bus speed of your ISA bus (though > >it's NOT recommended since most cards won't tolerate a bus speed of higher > >than 8MHz); > > 2) The ISA bus actually supports up to 16 bits (32bits with VL > >extensions). Most ISA sound cards made in the last 3 years or so are > 16-bit, > >as evidenced by their having two connectors with a slot between them. This > >is what allows them to have an IRQ of higher than 7. > > But I agree that PCI is the way to go for another reason: VERY soon the > >ISA bus will go away. Already, many P2 boards that still have ISA slots, > >only have 2 - maybe 3 - and will go away entirely by the end of the year > (in > >NEW boards, anyway). > >"Gunner"

> I've heard two additional but conflicting points which may or may not be true... > 1) Having any ISA ports in use at all will slow down the computer. I've heard someone on r.a.s. say that. IMHO, developers will not try to load a lot of textures during game play because that will slow the V2 down. Textures are loaded at the start of the game and will be used during play. So if there is any flooding it's not because of textures. Besides a 12mb V2 card can hold 8MB of textures. AGP graphic cards were made so the video card can access main memory for textures (fixing the low memory PCI card problem) -- I think Unreal will take advantage of this. The ISA bus is 4 times slower than the PCI bus, so I think its better to use AGP and PCI for all cards. -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

For those interested, there's an interesting read about this on Tom's Hardware Guide. AGP's use of system RAM for textures can actually cause resource problems. The story can be found at: http://www.tomshardware.com/agp-perf_2.html Personally, I'm of the belief that AGP graphics cards don't do much more than save you a PCI slot. At least in their present incarnation. -- Bill Mette | "A person is smart. People are dumb." MCSNet, Chicago | - K MiB

>Just wondering if anyone knows what the actual differences, advantages >etc regarding PCI vs ISA soundcards? Yep. I replaced my old ISA Ensoniq Soundscape with an AudioPCI (SBPCI64) and the framerate in Jane's F-15 jumped up 22% on my old 200mmx. Correct. Only if you get the wrong card. I got a TB Montego with my new Dell 450. I could not get it to work in tne DOS NR1999. I put my AudioPCI in my new Dell and it worked with the DOS NR1999 just fine. It has a SB legacy device configured in the device manager for running SB compatability in a DOS window. It was with F-15 and my 200mmx. I have no idea if there would be a similar impact if the CPU were faster. I think you would be disappointed. I suggest getting an AudioPCI (SBPCI64) with the 1370 Ensoniq chipset. Mine cost $35 at a local computer show. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Greg, Thanks for your input, I havent got the new computer moved off the kitchen table yet so I cant try it with sims. I wanted to run it awhile and make sure everything is stable before moving it into my computer room. I had heard one would gain quite a bit of framerate improvement by going to a PCI card and I wanted to get some other opinions on it. It was a hassle at first to set up but now all is well as near as I can tell. Trev

: I prefer an ISA sound card for several reasons, here are some. : (in particular the Awe 64 Gold, one of THE best sound cards ever made) : if you are doing 3d *** and have a PCI sound card, it is gonna be : hogging all the system resources and the ISA system resources will be : completely free. : Also you dont NEED to have a "fast" sound card, the 16 bit, 8 mhz ISA : bus is more than sufficient, as most Pro D/A converters ARE 16 bit. : Also the midi wavetable processor is on the Awe 64 NOT IN SOFTWARE as : most PCI sound card are. : The suggestions that an ISA soundcard wil slow down your gamin are : ludicrous. Its just not so. : Besides the PCI 64 and PCI 128 Sound blasters are junk, the SB live : looks likeits just 2 PCI 64 channels put on 1 card, though i've never : heard it. : this is my advice. Go with the SB AWE 64 gold, you will love it and : it will work in dos, which is more than i can say with most Sound scards : now adays -- Troy A. Nolen Gainesville, Florida ICQ 21966050 For a good laugh check out [link lost in import: /~troywang]

> : I prefer an ISA sound card for several reasons, here are some. <Snip> Troy, thanks for your response to my post. I have an AWE32 in this machine, I put an SB128 PCI in the new one I just finished. So far I'm hearing two different sides, one says PCI is the way to go for framerate issues, the other agrees with you. Since the new machine is a 450 and this one is a 208, I probably wont know if the ISA vs PCI is really making a difference and it most likely wont really be an issue. Its just curiosity more than anything. I can easily remove the PCI and switch to ISA for testing purposes though and this is what I may end up doing. Trev

>I can easily remove the PCI and switch to ISA for testing purposes >though and this is what I may end up doing. Just because a couple of people don't know what they are talking about is no reason to jump off the deep end. IMHO :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

For example... I have an awe 64 pci... GPL with an old sb 16 isa... about 25 fps with new 64 PCI... about 32-33... the same is for the others games... 7-8 fps increase Bye! Cristiano

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>> : I prefer an ISA sound card for several reasons, here are some. ><Snip> >Troy, thanks for your response to my post. I have an AWE32 in this >machine, I put an SB128 PCI in the new one I just finished. So far I'm >hearing two different sides, one says PCI is the way to go for framerate >issues, the other agrees with you. >Since the new machine is a 450 and this one is a 208, I probably wont >know if the ISA vs PCI is really making a difference and it most likely >wont really be an issue. Its just curiosity more than anything. >I can easily remove the PCI and switch to ISA for testing purposes >though and this is what I may end up doing. >Trev

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> For example... I have an awe 64 pci... > GPL with an old sb 16 isa... about 25 fps > with new 64 PCI... about 32-33... > the same is for the others games... 7-8 fps increase > Bye! > Cristiano

Is this with no other changes? Only the ISA to PCI soundcard change? It sounds like a rather large framerate increase and would surely be noticable :). Trev

>Is this with no other changes? Only the ISA to PCI soundcard change? It >sounds like a rather large framerate increase and would surely be >noticable :). As I have said before I saw a 22% framerate improvement in F15 simply by replacing my ISA soundcard with a PCI card. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Just though i would mention i am running a P150 at present with GPL and using an old ISA SoundBlaster 16 sound card. I get an average of 20 to 25fps in practice mode by myself with the above setup. (that also includes a voodoo 2) I tried a mates PCI soundcard, and wow what a difference to my frame rates. With the PCI soundcard installed i got a whole 20 to 25fps in practice mode compared to 20 to 25fps with my old ISA card. Plus i get no compatability problems with my old ISA SB16, at all. Just though you may be interested Trev.... Cheers, Ron

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> > For example... I have an awe 64 pci... > > GPL with an old sb 16 isa... about 25 fps > > with new 64 PCI... about 32-33... > > the same is for the others games... 7-8 fps increase > > Bye! > > Cristiano > Is this with no other changes? Only the ISA to PCI soundcard change?

It > sounds like a rather large framerate increase and would surely be > noticable :). > Trev

I would love to read some text on why you think this is... Really... -Larry

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> As I have said before I saw a 22% framerate improvement in F15 simply by > replacing my ISA soundcard with a PCI card. > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Greg, Sounds like the Creative SB128 PCI I got was a wise choice then :) Trev

>: The suggestions that an ISA soundcard wil slow down your gamin are >: ludicrous. Its just not so. I saw a 22%increase in F-15 by replacine my ISA soundcard with and AudioCPI. The part about the SBPCI64 is total bullshit. If the card has the 1370 Ensoniq chipset it will kick serious ass. Even in DOS. What fool would advocate an AWE of any type???? Ya you sure know *** soundcards alright. Wow. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

: I would love to read some text on why you think this is... : Really... : -Larry : > : Besides the PCI 64 and PCI 128 Sound blasters are junk, : I dont have any text to prove the fact, but I owned a PCI 64 SB and I : was VERY dissapointed to say the least. I have never OWNED a PCI 128, : but my parents' computer has one and I was not impressed AT ALL. : I sold my PCI 64 to a friend and put my AWE 32 back in until I : had the dough to get an AWE 64 GOLD. I am not looking back. : the AWE 64 has MIDI wavetable in HARDWARE, not software emulation, : show me a SB PCI card that does that, the closest ive seen to the MIDI : performance was a PCI Turtle Beach sound card (dont remember the model). : : to the person that said his FPS rise by 8-10 FPS JUST BY changing to a : PCI sound card, I call BULLSHIT! : I would have top see that to believe it. : -Troy -- Troy A. Nolen Gainesville, Florida ICQ 21966050 For a good laugh check out http://grove.ufl.edu/~troywang

I replaced my Terratec Base 1 (ISA) with a Terratec 128i (PCI) to get a ISA-free system. Maybe steering wheel control improved a little, but no difference in framerate in GPL. -- _____ /_______\ .\\ a t t h e a d I XT /~~~~ I 500\_____ 1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro \____/\__I_I http://matthead.home.pages.de/

> 2) If you have a PCI graphics card like Voodoo2, then the PCI > bus will get flooded with textures and it may be an idea to > put others devices on the ISA and USB buses to spread the load. Except that the data on the ISA bus probably goes over the PCI bus to "get to" the ISA bus or USB connector... ---Jim

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> > As I have said before I saw a 22% framerate improvement in F15 simply by > > replacing my ISA soundcard with a PCI card. > > -- > > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > Greg, > Sounds like the Creative SB128 PCI I got was a wise choice then :) > Trev

Trev, do you have any problems with the sound in GPL? I just upgraded to the SB 128PCI and sometimes the sound is a bit crackily! -- Todd Norbury SLONG GPL www.ozemail.com.au/~norbtech Seeya in the pits. Make sure there's a cold beer when I get back.

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> > > As I have said before I saw a 22% framerate improvement in F15 simply by > > > replacing my ISA soundcard with a PCI card. > > > -- > > > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > > > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > > Greg, > > Sounds like the Creative SB128 PCI I got was a wise choice then :) > > Trev > Trev, > do you have any problems with the sound in GPL? I just upgraded to the SB > 128PCI and sometimes the sound is a bit crackily!

My SB 128PCI is sitting in the drawer because of the terrible noise it made in GPL. Now I have the SB Live!, and it's the best soundcard I ever owned. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>> > As I have said before I saw a 22% framerate improvement in F15 simply by

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>> > replacing my ISA soundcard with a PCI card. >> > -- >> > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >> > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >> Greg, >> Sounds like the Creative SB128 PCI I got was a wise choice then :) >> Trev >Trev, >do you have any problems with the sound in GPL? I just upgraded to the SB >128PCI and sometimes the sound is a bit crackily!

Before you buy another card, try decreasing the Hardware acceleration setting that you find in Control Panel - Multimedia - Audio - Playback - Advanced Properties - Performance. I set it at basic acceleration for my SB64PCI. Before I lowered it GPL engines sounded distorted, especially the Ferrari. Bart Westra

Try http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/6051/ There is a solution for PCI128 problems with GPL

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> Trev, > do you have any problems with the sound in GPL? I just upgraded to the SB > 128PCI and sometimes the sound is a bit crackily! > -- > Todd Norbury > SLONG GPL > www.ozemail.com.au/~norbtech > Seeya in the pits. Make sure there's a cold beer when I get back.

-- Cyril Montailler ICQ# 21834897

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> Before you buy another card, try decreasing the Hardware acceleration > setting that you find in Control Panel - Multimedia - Audio - Playback - > Advanced Properties - Performance. I set it at basic acceleration for my > SB64PCI. Before I lowered it GPL engines sounded distorted, especially the > Ferrari. > Bart Westra

Bart, this is exactly what I'm hearing in GPL, ever since I got it the sound of the Ferrari has been especially irritating. I havent used the new computer I just built yet, the one with W98 and the SB128PCI card in it. This machine has an ISA AWE32 in it and I looked at control panel in W95 but couldnt find the setting you mentioned, I have nothing called "performance" unless I missed it. Under "advanced properties" I only have a list of devices and doubleclicking the audio brings up a choice of using audio features on this device or not and also do not map through this device. Am I missing something? Trev

>> Before you buy another card, try decreasing the Hardware acceleration >> setting that you find in Control Panel - Multimedia - Audio - Playback - >> Advanced Properties - Performance. I set it at basic acceleration for my >> SB64PCI. Before I lowered it GPL engines sounded distorted, especially the

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>> Ferrari. >> Bart Westra >Bart, this is exactly what I'm hearing in GPL, ever since I got it the >sound of the Ferrari has been especially irritating. I havent used the >new computer I just built yet, the one with W98 and the SB128PCI card in >it. >This machine has an ISA AWE32 in it and I looked at control panel in W95 >but couldnt find the setting you mentioned, I have nothing called >"performance" unless I missed it. Under "advanced properties" I only >have a list of devices and doubleclicking the audio brings up a choice >of using audio features on this device or not and also do not map >through this device. >Am I missing something? >Trev

No. My old machine has W95 and an ISA AWE64, and looks just like you describe. You will find the settings I mentioned on your new machine. I believe they are provided by the SB64/128 driver. There seems to be another way to deal with the problem: take apart the sound.dat file, lower the volume of the engine, and put it back together. I do not know the details how to do this, but they will be on one of the GPL sites for sure. Regards Bart Westra

This is correct. There is a piece of hardware in all common motherboards called the PCI ro ISA bridge that connects the two. There is absolutely no benefit to using ISA adapters as far as offloading the bus. All you will accomplish is to wait-state the CPU while accessing the ISA card - which is no big deal for sound. But if you use the on-board game port - it will have an effect on game play. /TomH ps. Hi Jim !

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> No. My old machine has W95 and an ISA AWE64, and looks just like you > describe. You will find the settings I mentioned on your new machine. I > believe they are provided by the SB64/128 driver. > There seems to be another way to deal with the problem: take apart the > sound.dat file, lower the volume of the engine, and put it back together. I > do not know the details how to do this, but they will be on one of the GPL > sites for sure. > Regards > Bart Westra

Thanks very much for the info Bart, the Ferrari is unusable right now because of the terrible scratchiness. Trev

>> Before you buy another card, try decreasing the Hardware acceleration >> setting that you find in Control Panel - Multimedia - Audio - Playback - >> Advanced Properties - Performance. I set it at basic acceleration for my >> SB64PCI. Before I lowered it GPL engines sounded distorted, especially the

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>> Ferrari. >> Bart Westra >Bart, this is exactly what I'm hearing in GPL, ever since I got it the >sound of the Ferrari has been especially irritating. I havent used the >new computer I just built yet, the one with W98 and the SB128PCI card in >it. >This machine has an ISA AWE32 in it and I looked at control panel in W95 >but couldnt find the setting you mentioned, I have nothing called >"performance" unless I missed it. Under "advanced properties" I only >have a list of devices and doubleclicking the audio brings up a choice >of using audio features on this device or not and also do not map >through this device. >Am I missing something? >Trev

No. My old machine has W95 and an ISA AWE64, and looks just like you describe. You will find the settings I mentioned on your new machine. I believe they are provided by the SB64/128 driver. There seems to be another way to deal with the problem: take apart the sound.dat file, lower the volume of the engine, and put it back together. I do not know the details how to do this, but they will be on one of the GPL sites for sure. Regards Bart Westra