GPL - Both Feet?

Question for all you GPL hotshoes: All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake? I've managed to get my time down to 1:07.30 in the Eagle at The Glen, but I'm still using one foot. As an old sports car racer, I never learned to brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch pedal! In the interest of maintaining historical accuracy, does anyone know if the GP drivers of the era used the left foot for braking since they apparently used synchronous "bang-boxes" which didn't require use of the clutch pedal? My wife got the movie "Grand Prix" for me for Christmas. I guess I'll have to go back and study the quick shots of the footwork as Garner tries to overcome his gearbox troubles at Monaco! If you've switched from using one foot to two, how's it affected your lap times? An are you using combined or split axis pedals? Thanks for your feedback! P.S. Incidentally, www.blockbuster.com has some great racing videos available for next to nothing. I got a great hour long video on an early 90's Monaco GP for something like US$8-9. A steal, I thought! Try searching their on the phrase "Grand Prix".

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Question for all you GPL hotshoes: > All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with > both > feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake? > I've managed to get my time down to 1:07.30 in the Eagle at The Glen, > but > I'm still using one foot. As an old sports car racer, I never learned > to > brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch > pedal!

Hmm, know what you mean; I use both, but then again, I'm a scandinavian, and we invented left-foot braking:) They did, like now, sometimes to get the front wheels back "down" :)But not for "serious" braking (slowing down) I switched when I got N2, since I started with the keyboard, I developed a (bad?) habit of "left-finger" braking, and the technique transferred beautifully to my T2 when i Split the Axis. Cheers, Good luck! Matthew Knutsen The Art of Legends http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/simrace1.htm

Yes many of us GPL'ers are using left-foot braking to drive GPL and it works quite well especially if you have a wheel and pedal set that has the pedal axis split. You can actually use both brake and throttle *together* at times to keep the car balanced through corners. GPL realistically models the weight of the rear engine, so sometimes a bit of throttle helps to keep the rear end from coming around on you under braking. In F1 most of the drivers left foot brake too so this is actually a realistic technique, also when racing Karts at a local track I found that I could balance the throttle and left foot brake very effectively in a similar way to what I do in GPL, I think my GPL practice applies well to karts in real life (tm), also so far I've had no problems driving my normal real life clutch car with heel-toe technique (haven't had any impulse to try to brake with left foot). Give it a try if you haven't, it actually feels very natural and personally I think it does improve lap times. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

Quoted text (25 lines)

>Question for all you GPL hotshoes: >All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both >feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake? >I've managed to get my time down to 1:07.30 in the Eagle at The Glen, but >I'm still using one foot. As an old sports car racer, I never learned to >brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch pedal! >In the interest of maintaining historical accuracy, does anyone know if the >GP drivers of the era used the left foot for braking since they apparently >used synchronous "bang-boxes" which didn't require use of the clutch pedal? >My wife got the movie "Grand Prix" for me for Christmas. I guess I'll have >to go back and study the quick shots of the footwork as Garner tries to >overcome his gearbox troubles at Monaco! >If you've switched from using one foot to two, how's it affected your lap >times? An are you using combined or split axis pedals? >Thanks for your feedback! >P.S. Incidentally, www.blockbuster.com has some great racing videos >available for next to nothing. I got a great hour long video on an early >90's Monaco GP for something like US$8-9. A steal, I thought! Try searching >their on the phrase "Grand Prix".

I know form reading books from Niki Lauda and Jackie Stewart, they mention they did not left foot brake. They would blip the throttle with the edge of one foot while braking with the same foot. I do a similar thing when autocrossing, if I have to downshift and brake at the same time, if I don't have to drop down a gear i left foot brake in my real car. As for sims I have always left foot braked, being it is quicker. I do not like some have split axis pedals tho. Dave

I'm not posting incredible lap times (yet) but from my experience of Formula Renaults, heel-and-toe is used to "blip" not trail brake. You can trail brake with either left or right foot braking. brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch pedal!<< In GPL I prefer to left foot brake. I tired using my right foot, but the only reason I didn't like that was because it was too uncomfortable with the pedal I use. However, in the short time I've been driving on the road, I prefered to use right foot braking in the Saab (an automatic) but in my present car (the awful Ford - Galaxy, also an automatic) I find my self using the left foot for braking. I don't know why, but I have no prblem changing which foot I use to brake from Karting to Sim Racing to driving on teh road. It's probably because I play the drums :o) Anyway, as for what they did 'back then' I think they would have used right foot braking. I saw Channel 4's "Stirling Moss Night" when the had Stirling drive around Donnington Park in an old "Cooper" (??) and his feet were all over the place! It was magic! :o) I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) the didn't use the clutch when baging up the gears, but when braking and down-shifting, they use the clutch to "blip" the throttle. Yes, now I'm thinking I've definatly heard of the term "double declutching" used from those days :o) No idea what it is, but still... Hope this helps :o) Rob Eleve Winfield 1998

Quoted text (7 lines)

> In F1 most of the drivers left foot brake too so this is actually a > realistic technique, also when racing Karts at a local track I found > that I could balance the throttle and left foot brake very effectively > in a similar way to what I do in GPL, I think my GPL practice applies > well to karts in real life (tm), also so far I've had no problems driving > my normal real life clutch car with heel-toe technique (haven't had any > impulse to try to brake with left foot).

(Hi John). I was just listening to the audio clip from Damon Hill regarding the 1998 season (a website with audio clips from many of the 1998 F1 drivers can be found at http://www.hypoxia.freeserve.co.uk/f1/index.html). Damon discusses how he has been trying to learn left foot braking for several years now, but has never been able to master it. First I need to get a split axis wheel/peddle set (or modify my T2). Dave Ewing

Hi Jack, > Question for all you GPL hotshoes: > All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both > feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake? My times are not incredible, but I think what I am about to say will be worth some value :) I brake with the left foot, even though I have a combined gas/brake T2 controller. I 'think' the amount of time to switch from gas to brake and back (with 1 foot) is taking 1/10ths of a second off your laps times on each transition. Besides, doesn't your foot get tired? :) Seriously, when switch pedals with 1 foot there is a small period of time when no gas or brake is being applied. This will make the car unstable (to a degree). Even with combined axis controllers, I think left foot braking is good because you can quickly brake and/or gas when required. Now keep in mind with a combined gas/brake controller left foot braking is more like left foot 'slowing' until you release the gas pedal; however, this does produce a very smooth transition between accellerating and decellerating that will improve your times. I started left foot 'slowing' in Nascar and never went back to using 1 foot. NP :) ------ Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my non trail-braking setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

You're saying that they use/used the left foot for just attitude adjustments and right foot braking otherwise? Sounds like it requires a lot of premeditation rather than being instinctual. I guess that's why they're driving/drove F1 and I'm driving GPL! ;-)

If a car requires that you declutch to downshift, you will have to use some variation of heel-and-toe to simultaneously brake and downshift just prior to a trail braking manuever. If you're busy braking and blipping the throttle for your downshifts, it's not likely that you'd suddenly switch from the right foot to the left for trail braking. In other words, you'll have to use the right foot if any downshifting's required prior to a corner where you intend to employ trail braking, assuming your car requires declutching. Did your Formula Renault require that you declutch to downshift? Must be. I don't seem to have much modulation in my left foot yet. I guess I'll acquire some over time. Here's "double-declutching" (a.k.a "double-clutching") step-by-step: 1. Depress clutch 2. Disengage 4th gear (for example) by moving shifter to neutral position 3. Release clutch 4. Blip throttle to bring rotational velocity of drivetrain up. This is done with the either the heel or the right edge of the foot while standing on the brake (hence, heel-and-toe). Blipping the throttle with the clutch depressed fails to get all the required elements of the drivetarin up to speed. 5. Depress clutch 6. Engage third gear 7. Release clutch. Steps 5-7 must be done very quickly so that the rotational velocity of the drivetrain continues to match road speed. That's what makes for all the "magic." Imagine going through these gyrations through several gears for a long straight terminated by a hairpin, while braking at the absolute limit of adhesion! I had the good fortune of seeing the F1 guys do just that at Long Beach a couple of times in the 70's. It was amazing! So may question remains, did they use the clutch to downshift in 67 or not? And what about contemporary F1 cars?

Yeah, but since GPL is focused on being realistic and historically accurate, I think left foot braking on a combined axis setup detracts from the realism because of the interaction of the brake and throttle pedals, just as you described. And if the cars in '67 required declutching to downshift, I think left foot braking for any turn that requires downshifting also detracts from the realism. It gets back to the simulation v. arcade issue, I guess. Thanks for your comments!

Quoted text (10 lines)

> >They did, like now, sometimes to get the front wheels back "down" > :)But > >not for "serious" braking (slowing down) > You're saying that they use/used the left foot for just attitude > adjustments > and right foot braking otherwise? Sounds like it requires a lot of > premeditation rather than being instinctual. I guess that's why > they're > driving/drove F1 and I'm driving GPL! ;-)

Yup, it still is the order of the day in motorsports, although it was the Finns who startedto use the "left-foot braking" technique. Mainly it was to compensate for poor car handling, later it became useful when racing turbo-cars with lots of lag (Gilles Villeneuve was a master at this), just keeping the gas down & pressure up, and "dab" the prakes to provoke oversteer. NOT recommended that anybody try this in a modern road car - you'll most likely find yourself flying through the front windshield! :-) (Unless you drive a Mini, like me!) Driving GPL is just like go-karts, no clutch to worry about! Keep racing! Matt Knutsen

From what I've read, most of the modern F1 drivers left-foot brake, Schumacher being a good example, especially recently since many of them come from a karting background where they have no choice. Also I've heard that it was one of Senna's strengths, left-footbraking through the corners while keeping the throttle going kept the turbo-aspirated engines of a few years ago spooled up and resulted in being able to launch the car off the exit of the corner without suffering from turbo lag. It must be pretty hard for Damon to try and switch this late in his racing career, although I wonder where he got used to heel-and-toe coming from a motorcycle racing background. I race on a modified split-axis T2 myself, if you are handy with a soldering iron and multimeter it isn't too terribly hard to do, I modified mine in preparation for the release of GPL and find it worth the trouble. BTW Dave, that's a nice site, gets me even more antsy for the start of F1 season, thank god this year we have GPL to keep us entertained during the long cold months of the racing offseason. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

I also left foot brake, not so much from comfort reasons as because it allows me to a) apply brake against throttle or vice-versa (that is often the best and most stable way around a corner or to balance the car) and b) because it eliminates however many tenths or hundredths of a second it takes you to move your foot from gas to brake and back again. However long that time is I will pick up that much time twice for every corner on the track (once getting on the brake and once getting back on the gas). Maybe! I also used to play drums and quite naturally change between left-foot braking (sims, karting, any automatic car while travelling abroad) and right foot braking (manual cars in the UK). There is no adjustment, either way just feels okay. What I can't do is left foot brake in a manual car - for some reason when I try it I can't get the sensitivity right immediately and my first couple of tries have me peeling my face of the windscreen :-) Simply as it sounds - declutching once to move from gear to neutral, then depressing the clutch again to slip into the lower gear. It was/is primarily for non-syncromesh 'boxes, and in fact you may still find some road cars today where this is a "feature". Even in newer cars the reverse may not be syncro so you have to lift the clutch and depress it again before selecting reverse rather than just doing so directly. In a syncromesh 'box you have "syncronisers" which do the work for you, but in a non-syncro box you first "shift" into neutral, then you "blip" the throttle (to match your engine speed with the rotational speed of your wheels in the gear you are about to select) before finally "shifting" again into the lower gear. On the way up through the 'box you needn't do this since there is no need to realign the engine speed and the wheel's road speed - the engine needs to turn more slowly for the higher gear you are about to select and the actof backing of the throttle for the shift accomplishes that for you - in fact if you blipped you would more than likely create a problem where none would have existed. With a little (a lot?!) of practice and a sensitive ear and ***you can upshift without the clutch, since when you back off the throttle as the revs fall away the road speeds match and at that point you can shift without the clutch. The timing depends upon how closely your gears are spaced. Not having much money in the days when I raced I decided not to do this after some experimentation. It may be a shade faster (arguably, I didn't see a huge difference) but it can get a bit expensive if you get it wrong.... Cheers! John

Quoted text (7 lines)

>From what I've read, most of the modern F1 drivers left-foot brake, Schumacher >being a good example, especially recently since many of them come from a >karting background where they have no choice. Also I've heard that it was >one of Senna's strengths, left-footbraking through the corners while keeping >the throttle going kept the turbo-aspirated engines of a few years ago spooled >up and resulted in being able to launch the car off the exit of the corner >without suffering from turbo lag.

That was one of Schumacher's big advantages during 1994 - his technique of braking against full throttle did nothing for his brake wear (pretty massive!) but it kept exhaust gases pumping out below the rear wing and diffuser, increasing the downforce of his car and so allowing him to corner more quickly. This was faster than guys who simply left foot braked and a significant advantage over those who right foot braked. The guy just excels at those details. Actually that same technique also causes people to think Michael is going into corners flat (and faster than everyone else) whereas in fact he is gently braking against full throttle (although probably still faster than everyone else!) :-) Cheers! John

Quoted text (13 lines)

> >Even with combined axis controllers, I think left foot braking is good > because > >you can quickly brake and/or gas when required. Now keep in mind with a > >combined gas/brake controller left foot braking is more like left foot > >'slowing' until you release the gas pedal; however, this does produce a > very > >smooth transition between accellerating and decellerating that will improve > >your times. > Yeah, but since GPL is focused on being realistic and historically accurate, > I think left foot braking on a combined axis setup detracts from the realism > because of the interaction of the brake and throttle pedals, just as you > described.

Combined axis is the wheel's fault (pedals), not GPL. Is GPL not supposed to work for those with combined pedals? Hmm, buy a wheel with a clutch and use the clutch when you downshift. Arcade would (to me) mean you can't use a clutch, which u can if u have the money for a wheel with a real clutch. Also what about a great deal of the ppl using buttons instead of a stick shift. Does that make it arcade? Some of this just is up to how much money you are willing to spend. Oh yeah, how many cars does Lotus make? 75% of online race fields are fielded by Lotus! Talk about arcade. <sarcasitic tone> ;-) Although it would be cool if u had to earn your ride...next time I hope; there I am pleading with the BRM team insisting that I'm better than that. -- Jon Van Ginneken "I wrestled with an alligator, tussled with a whale, handcuffed lightning, threw thunder in jail...I'm a bad dude." - Muhammad Ali

Quoted text (19 lines)

> >Yes, now I'm thinking I've definatly heard of the term "double > >declutching" used from those days :o) No idea what it is, but still... > Here's "double-declutching" (a.k.a "double-clutching") step-by-step: > 1. Depress clutch > 2. Disengage 4th gear (for example) by moving shifter to neutral position > 3. Release clutch > 4. Blip throttle to bring rotational velocity of drivetrain up. This is done > with the either the heel or the right edge of the foot while standing on the > brake (hence, heel-and-toe). Blipping the throttle with the clutch depressed > fails to get all the required elements of the drivetarin up to speed. > 5. Depress clutch > 6. Engage third gear > 7. Release clutch. > Steps 5-7 must be done very quickly so that the rotational velocity of the > drivetrain continues to match road speed. That's what makes for all the > "magic."

When I was a kid, my Mum had an old Morris that required double declutching. She's quite the master of it and explained it to me as much the same as you've described. I think it was quite common place in ordinary road cars in those days (quite a bit before 1967 this was) together with a crank handle to start the thing (no starter motor either), Paul

> Question for all you GPL hotshoes: > All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both > feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake? My time at the Glen with the Lotus is 1:05:77, so it's not quite as incredible as the times at the hotlaps site, but here goes. I use my left foot for braking, and couldn't imagine doing it any other way, even though I've driven manual transmission cars exclusively (for 5 years now). It just seems so much more effective. -- Anssi Lehtinen

Quoted text (7 lines)

> In F1 most of the drivers left foot brake too so this is actually a > realistic technique, also when racing Karts at a local track I found > that I could balance the throttle and left foot brake very effectively > in a similar way to what I do in GPL, I think my GPL practice applies > well to karts in real life (tm), also so far I've had no problems driving > my normal real life clutch car with heel-toe technique (haven't had any > impulse to try to brake with left foot).

Talking about Real Life(tm), heel-and-to is a *** when you have size 12.5 Camel boots and a Nissan Sunny. I'm halfway to pressing all of the three pedals at once when I stomp my foot in there :) Good thing heel-and-toe is just for fun in these circumstances. -- Anssi Lehtinen

I meant that if one was seeking maximum authenticity, one would have to avoid left foot braking if the cars of the era required declutching before downshifting. Absolutely. Wouldn't a competition that required all that be challenging and interesting!

My best at the Glen (since that is an example use din this thread) is 1m04.37s. I have a Thrustmaster "Formula 1" wheel on split axes and I left-foot brake. I find it much easier than with just ol' righty. And I will demonstrate my sheer ignorance by telling you that I'm not even sure what heel-and-toe is :-) Cheers! -- Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824 "I could sleep next to a pneumatic drill....... If it was turned off"

Quoted text (10 lines)

>> All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both >> feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake? >> I've managed to get my time down to 1:07.30 in the Eagle at The Glen, but >> I'm still using one foot. As an old sports car racer, I never learned to >> brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch pedal! >I use my left foot for braking, and couldn't imagine doing it any other >way, even though I've driven manual transmission cars exclusively (for 5 >years now). It just seems so much more effective.

One of the best illustrations of left foot braking I can remember ever seeing on television was during (believe it or not) a NASCAR race! It was during the Watkins Glen event and they had a camera installed in the footwell of (was it Ricky Rudd???)'s car showing the amazing ballet of his busy footwork on the pedals. The "foot-cam" images were displayed in a small box superimposed in the corner of the regular tv view which showed the car's progress from trackside cameras. At top speed at the end of the long straight, well before lifting off the throttle, he would first reach over with his left foot to tentatively pump the brake pedal a couple of times just to assure himself the brakes would function. Upon reaching his braking point, the right foot came off the throttle and went deep into the brakes as the left foot switched to the clutch pedal. While the left foot worked the clutch pedal, the right foot simultaneously braked and rolled onto the throttle to blip the revs as he worked down through the gearbox braking hard into the corner. Then, as he bent the car into the apex of the long turn, his right foot would come off the brake pedal and slide back fully onto the throttle. At the same time, while staying full on the throttle, his left foot modulated the brake pedal to stabilise the car through the apex to the exit of the corner. Then it was back up through the gears until the next corner... I used to think NASCAR drivers only knew how to turn left. But watching that display gave me a entirely new respect for what they do with those big cars. -Ferdinand-

>>Yes, now I'm thinking I've definatly heard of the term "double >>declutching" used from those days :o) No idea what it is, but still... >Simply as it sounds - declutching once to move from gear to neutral, >then depressing the clutch again to slip into the lower gear. It >was/is primarily for non-syncromesh 'boxes, ... That sounds correct, but this next bit is quite wrong... It's precisely --because-- most cars lack syncromesh on reverse that it is counter-productive to double declutch when shifting into reverse. With the vehicle stopped, engine running at idle, transmission in any forward gear (let's say first gear), and clutch pedal depressed, the engine is disconnected (by the clutch) from the transmission's input shaft. At the other end, the transmission's output shaft, linked to the drivewheels, is not revolving because the vehicle is stopped. The output gear (first gear) is locked to the output shaft via the syncromesh gear dogs. The heavy lower countershaft, permanently meshed with each of the output gears, is also stationary as it is linked to the stationary first gear and output shaft. The transmission input shaft is linked to the lower countershaft, therefore it too is stationary. With nothing rotating in the gearbox, and clutch depressed, it should be possible to shift from any gear into any other gear including reverse with no risk whatsoever of grinding gears. Now try momentarily letting the clutch up in neutral before again trying to select reverse. With the car stopped, engine running at idle, transmission in NEUTRAL, and clutch pedal LIFTED, the engine is driving the transmission's input shaft which in turn is spinning the heavy lower countershaft splashing oil up onto all the gears. The countershaft is constantly meshed with (and thus spinning) each of the output gears. The output gears are each spinning freely (disconnected in neutral) on the output shaft. Only the output shaft is stationary as the car is stopped. When you next depress the clutch, the heavy countershaft will continue to spin for some time depending on the viscosity of the gearbox oil. If the oil is cold and thick, the gears will come to a rapid stop. But if the oil is hot and thin, the gears will continue to spin for quite a while even though the engine is no longer driving them once you depress the clutch. If you attempt to immediately select reverse at this point, the gears will definitely crunch. Reverse typically has no syncromesh. Trying to select reverse in this manner introduces the reverse gear between a stationary output shaft and the still rotating heavy countershaft. Gear teeth don't enjoy that sort of abuse. There are two easy ways to prevent crunching gears when selecting reverse. You could depress the clutch and simply wait until you are certain the gears have spun to a halt before sliding the gear selector into reverse. Or you can depress the clutch, momentarily select any forward gear, and then select reverse. The forward gears all typically have synchromesh cups which act as brakes to match the rotational speeds of the output gear to the output shaft before mechanically meshing the gear dogs. Momentarily selecting a forward gear will brake the rotating gear (and the constantly meshed heavy countershaft and input shaft) to match the same rotational speed of the stationary output shaft, thus bringing everything to a smooth halt. Now, keeping the clutch depressd, you can select reverse with no risk of grinding gears. -Ferdinand-

Hey, how about right-hand-braking? I am using an old TM GP1 and left hand brake all the time :) Throttle/break on paddles is _extremely_ precise.

I and a few others explained heel-and-toe earlier in this thread. Check it out if you haven't seen it...in particular, Ferdinand Trauttmansdorf's decription of Ricky Rudd's heel-and-toe techniques at The Glen! Do you left foot brake in your real car? Just curious...I just don't seem to have the feel/sensitivity/modulation in my left foot for "at the limit" braking! Thanks for your comments, Graeme. With a 1:04.37 at The Glen, I'm always interested in what you have to say!

Wow! What a piece! Add a title and you could publish that post in an automotive trade journal! Thanks! Ferdinand, with your obviously thorough understanding of transmissions, I think you're probably the guy to ask: Were the 67 gearboxes synchro or non-synchro? Did they require use of the clutch pedal? If they were able to get away with shifting without the clutch pedal, did it affect drivetrain longevity? How did the 67 F1 gearboxes differ from contemporary road and contemporary racing gearboxes?

Great post! I'm exhausted just reading it! Newly found respect for the turn left guys!

>It's precisely --because-- most cars lack syncromesh on reverse that >it is counter-productive to double declutch when shifting into >reverse. I never mentioned double-declutching into reverse, only made the example that reverse is not syncro, since this is the example of non-syncro gears that that is closest to home for almost everyone. In the vast majority of cars I have driven you can't release the clutch into a reverse while there is any forward motion of the car/shaft. That was quite a detailed explanation though! :-) Cheers! John

Quoted text (9 lines)

>>It's precisely --because-- most cars lack syncromesh on reverse that >>it is counter-productive to double declutch when shifting into >>reverse. >I never mentioned double-declutching into reverse, only made the >example that reverse is not syncro, since this is the example of >non-syncro gears that that is closest to home for almost everyone. In >the vast majority of cars I have driven you can't release the clutch >into a reverse while there is any forward motion of the car/shaft.

Yes you can!! Have you never driven a company car??!!

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >Combined axis is the wheel's fault (pedals), not GPL. Is GPL not supposed > to > >work for those with combined pedals? > I meant that if one was seeking maximum authenticity, one would have to > avoid left foot braking if the cars of the era required declutching before > downshifting.

I hear of all the people saying GPL is too difficult. It's just a matter of how fast you are trying to go. Here are the steps I'm taking to *enjoy* GPL: 1. I crashed the first few days but drove the Conventry in trainer and advanced trainer mode to practice controlling these cars. 2. I moved to the GP Ferrari and starting racing online. Lots of great battles and even won a few races :) 3. Move to other cars (because well, there in there why not try them? :) Learn a lot about setups by enjoying the challenges of making 'slow' cars fast. 4. Move to the Lotus and see how close I can get to the fast guys. 5. Switch to split axis driving to see how much trail-braking really helps me. I'm currently in step 3. I love GPL and enjoy every minute of it even with a combined axis T2. However, maximum authenicity with split axis would not make GPL that much better, IMHO. I know I could go faster, but I'm not the type to really spend days gaining 1/10 of a second at Monza. Jason. -------- Jason Monds "My other car is a Ferrari" http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

I've seen the 'foot-cam' even on short tracks - Martinsville and Bristol. It's VERY interesting to watch... <g> Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Do you left foot brake in your real car? Just curious...I just don't seem to >have the feel/sensitivity/modulation in my left foot for "at the limit" >braking! I brake with my left foot in sims, but not in my real car. Same problem as yours: lack of the right kind of feel/sensitivity/modulation. I think the difference has a lot to do with the wheel and pedals we're using in sims. I'm not familiar with the more modern / expensive units, but the pedals on my T2 are identical for gas and brake. They both have the same travel and resistance - which gas and brake on my real car definitely don't have. :) The T2 brake pedal feels and operates more like a real life clutch pedal, which is why (I guess) my left foot has no problems operating it - it's used to gently depressing a pedal like this. It is not used to modulating pressure with little travel, though, as needed for a real brake pedal. Likewise, I don't drive my real car with the left hand in 12 o'clock position and the right hand hovering over the shifter, as I do in GPL. The real car has extensive "force feedback effects" which make steering with both hands necessary. Sims, esp. GPL, require delicate, fast steering and fast shifting, but my wheel doesn't have a lot of travel or force feedback. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

>>Do you left foot brake in your real car? Just curious...I just don't seem to >>have the feel/sensitivity/modulation in my left foot for "at the limit" >>braking! Yes, I do....I think it has something to do with learning to drive on a go kart, which leaves no choice but to left-foot brake, and I just never kicked the habit. On my T2, I added 2 extension-type springs (with a little drilling and hacking) and took the original out of the throttle pedal. Now the gas is easy to depress, and the brake significantly harder- works pretty well, and they don't break nearly as often. Scott Moore Team Tachyon [link lost in import] Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com] Vintage Internet Racing Club [link lost in import] ICQ 13433409 Responsible Online Racers [link lost in import: /~marknjess/nonflame.html]

I learnt to drive in a Go kart too, but I find the pedal spacing in most cars is terrible for left foot braking. The only cars I have found it to be practicle in are a Mini and Subaru Impreza. Jon.

Back in the 1970s, my dad reportedly did brake left-foot _once_ because he had to keep his right foot on the gas 'cause otherwise the engine would have died. But he *quickly* went back to right-foot braking as the car behind him crashed into the back of his car because he stepped onto the brakes so hard ;-)) Anyway, to stay on-topic: I can't imagine not to left-foot brake in GPL or any other racing game, it's just a lot faster and more precise than right-foot braking. But I couldn't imagine to use it in real life. Daniel PS: great thread :) -- Daniel Lichtenberger, Vienna/Austria

I've tried it before (in games), and I could NOT get the hang of it... I don't know how much practice it would take, but I wasn't willing to work on it THAT badly. :) Eldred>Subject: Re: GPL - Both Feet?

Quoted text (22 lines)

>Date: 1/7/99 12:03 PM Eastern Standard Time >>Do you left foot brake in your real car? Just curious...I just don't seem to >>have the feel/sensitivity/modulation in my left foot for "at the limit" >>braking! >Back in the 1970s, my dad reportedly did brake left-foot _once_ >because he had to keep his right foot on the gas 'cause otherwise the >engine would have died. But he *quickly* went back to right-foot >braking as the car behind him crashed into the back of his car because >he stepped onto the brakes so hard ;-)) >Anyway, to stay on-topic: I can't imagine not to left-foot brake in >GPL or any other racing game, it's just a lot faster and more precise >than right-foot braking. But I couldn't imagine to use it in real >life. >Daniel

__ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Likewise, I don't drive my real car with the left hand in 12 o'clock >position and the right hand hovering over the shifter, as I do in GPL. >The real car has extensive "force feedback effects" which make Do you mind if I ask about the condition of your left shoulder? ;-) This is exactly the position I drive in, and my left shoulder keeps giving me trouble every now and then. My left hand is more in a nine o'clock position though. I don't do left foot braking in real life either, but it works great with the T2 and even saved me and my car once when I went into a spin coming off the Autobahn when I instinctively used left foot braking in order to correct the slide. Only afterwards when the adrenaline wore off I realized like "hey, you just used left foot braking in a real car". Nothing dramatic though, just a slippery road even at 25 mph or so ;-) Cheers, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

Hehe, Being 17, I don't have a real car yet. I start driving lessons next month though :-) Cheers! -- Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

You're kidding, right? If not, I guess you're so fast because no where in the back of your mind resides any recollection of ever hitting anything at speed!

'fraid not. I guess I'm the r.a.s baby :-) I barrel-rolled a kart once, but otherwise I suppose you're pretty much right! As a general point, I'd be happy to write a GPL driving guide if enough people are interested. And I mean driving guide - no setup stuff or anything like that, since I'm still figuring it all out myself! Cheers! -- Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

Quoted text (8 lines)

>Ferdinand writes: >>One of the best illustrations of left foot braking I can remember ever >>seeing on television was during (believe it or not) a NASCAR race! ... >> The "foot-cam" images ... >I've seen the 'foot-cam' even on short tracks - Martinsville and Bristol. It's >VERY interesting to watch... <g> >Eldred

I don't watch very many NASCAR races, but the camera work always impresses me. I remember another camera angle shot from UNDER a car looking at the right front tire. It was AMAZING to see how far the tire stretches under cornering loads. I was astounded that, after all the work that goes into developing a proper suspension setup, the contact patch of the tire still wanders from side to side by several inches when it's subjected to side loads. Awesome. -Ferdinand-

>>>Do you left foot brake in your real car? Just curious...I just don't >>>seem to have the feel/sensitivity/modulation in my left foot for >>>"at the limit" braking! >Yes, I do....I think it has something to do with learning to drive on a go >kart, which leaves no choice but to left-foot brake, and I just never kicked >the habit. ... Part of the problem is the way that pedals are set in typical road cars. By design the throttle and brake pedals are either set far apart, or the brake pedal is much higher than the throttle, in order to prevent idiots from confusing the two pedals. Otherwise you'll get people swearing that they're car is possessed by evil spirits. While they had both feet firmly planted on the brake pedal, the car mysteriously started its own engine, dropped into gear, went to wide open throttle (overpowering the brakes in the process), mowed down several pedestrians on the sidewalk, crashed through the front window of the supermarket, continued right through the back wall of the supermarket, and launched straight off the pier into the nearest ocean. It's officially called 'unintended acceleration'. In a go-kart or race car setup (or simulator pedals), the brake pedal can be reached without lifting your heel off the floor. Pressure is applied to the brake pedal and can be finely modulated by rotating your foot at the ankle using your calf muscle. But in the average car, you have to lift your foot right off the floor to reach the brake pedal. Now you're using your whole leg to apply pressure with your thigh muscles. Without a lot of practice, it's much more difficult to get the same degree of control. -Ferdinand-

Schuerkamp) dribbled the following: WOW!!! That happened to me too!! I just coulnt believe my left foot comming to the rescue though all that panic and did it corretly too. I will never doubt my left foot again. :) -- Gadget???. http://www.i-r-gadget.freeserve.co.uk UIN 862812 Please remove the "NOWT" from email if replying. soz bout tha speeling.