Counter Steering in GPL

It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out.. I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the slide and the car straightened itself out... This is counter correct... Anyone else notice this?

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> It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter > steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out.. > I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the > slide and the car straightened itself out... > This is counter correct... > Anyone else notice this?

Yes. Here's what's happening (at least here's how it looks here)... You start to lose the rear in a slide. The slip angles of all four wheels are increasing, you're losing traction at all four corners. If you countersteer, you'd better move that wheel QUICK, because what happens as soon as you atart to steer into the skid is a reduction in slip angle at the front wheels, and more steering force. THe increased steering force hastens the spin unless you steer further into the skid (and quickly) to reduce the slip angle at the front wheels to zero. On the other hand, if at the beginning of a slide you steer the "wrong" way, you immediately increase the slip angles at the front wheels faster than the rears are increasing, and the spin never fully develops. Trips

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> It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter > steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out.. > I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the > slide and the car straightened itself out... > This is counter correct... > Anyone else notice this?

Depends on what you do with the gas when the car starts to oversteer; if you lift off the gas completly, there's a good chance your car will spin out even if the wheels are counter-steered. But I find it's still the best way to control the car. But to a certain point... if the back has gone to far, the only thing left to do is pray that you won't hit anything too hard. Philster

You are correct, but a touch of throttle will help keep the car from spinning, but i can also make you carreen off the road. Expirence tells me I would rather back a Formula car into anything then hit it head on tho. Dave

When you "counter-steer" or opposite lock, you must also apply the throttle to make the technique work. (Note: Full throttle will more than likely cause a spin)

It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined vehicle. Marc.

I Don't believe so, My real cars are both rear engined (911S) and a front engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the same. If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the opposite direction.... Counter intuitive...

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> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined > vehicle. > Marc. > >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter > >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out.. > >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the > >slide and the car straightened itself out... > >This is counter correct... > >Anyone else notice this?

I'm confused by your terminology here, Ric. When you say "counter-steer" do you mean steering left even though the car is going round a right hand corner? A lot of people use "steer into the slide" to mean the same thing! You seem to use them to mean opposite things. - Michael

It is basic driving 101 that you always steer in the direction you want the car to go...with a rear-engined vehicle, you may need to apply throttle as well to prevent the rear-end from coming around. But you are steering into the spin--that is, if you are turning right and start to lose the car (the rear-end is swinging around), you may have to turn left to keep the front wheels pointed in the direction you want the car to travel. Throttle steering at this point in GPL will be essential, as it would be in a 911 if you were anywhere near the limits of adhesion. In your 2002, however, like any other good rear-wheel drive front-engined car, you could, possibly, de-clutch and let the car rebalance and the front wheels steer you around the corner until you were straight enough to apply more power. De-clutching in a rear-engined car (especially the beasts in GPL) near the limit will more often than not induce a spin-out. I can't really figure-out from your comments whether you disagree with any of this...?? So I tried to make my point more clearly and with more detail. I believe GPL reacts very naturally and as one would expect regarding steering input during near-limit corerning. Marc.

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>I Don't believe so, My real cars are both rear engined (911S) and a front >engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same >manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a >distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the >same. >If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be >pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a >slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the >opposite direction.... >Counter intuitive... >> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined >> vehicle. >> Marc. >> >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter >> >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out.. >> >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the >> >slide and the car straightened itself out... >> >This is counter correct... >> >Anyone else notice this?

In your 2002, however, like Putting the clutch in on any car that is at the limit of adhesion will unload the chassis and induce a spin, esp in a rear engined car like the 911, infact I don't think you would get your foot on the clutch before the 911 would turn around on you. The olders ones are very vindictive when you drive them incorrectly. Infast lifting off the gas at the limit in a 911 will induce a spin. A front engined car will react a bit slower then a car with its motor outside the wheels. It will tho spin just the same. Infact the desing of older BMWs will induce oversteer at the limit and lifting just makes it worse, declutching would not balance the car either. It would unload the chassis a bit in probly induce the spin faster, at least it does in my Solo ll car. A typical mid-engined car will exhibit a power on understeer, power off oversteer and be neutral at neutral throttle. Drive a 914-4 and this will prove this out. With GPL you have an abunance of HP to work with so you can induce oversteer anytime you want, but you should notice that off throttle it tends to oversteer and on throttle understeer to a point of where the power overcomes the tires. One last thing if you decide to try the declutching on a 66 to 90 911 and are rich please put me in your will. Dave

I'm with you, I think it's wierd. If you start to spin right, turn right and let off the throttle and you'll stop spinning. I've always wondered if anybody else thought it was wierd. rob.

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>I Don't believe so, My real cars are both rear engined (911S) and a front >engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same >manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a >distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the >same. >If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be >pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a >slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the >opposite direction.... >Counter intuitive... >> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined >> vehicle. >> Marc. >> >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter >> >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out.. >> >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the >> >slide and the car straightened itself out... >> >This is counter correct... >> >Anyone else notice this?

No, I mean exactly that.. When the car starts to slide, I counter steer into the slide, and the car spins around every time, and stops, pointing the wrong direction, no matter how soon I start to catch it, no matter how minor the slide. However, if I do the complete real life wrong thing, over steer a slide, the car either straightens itself out on the side of the course or even less, spins around and points the correct direction.. Maybe its the steering wheel that I have? Nascar Sprint????

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> I'm confused by your terminology here, Ric. > When you say "counter-steer" do you mean steering left even though the car > is going round a right hand corner? A lot of people use "steer into the > slide" to mean the same thing! You seem to use them to mean opposite things. > - Michael

With my 69 911S, You have to keep the power on, to make the car drive itself through the turns.. If one is coming in hot and finds himself in a over steering situation, and the car is in a high gear, I 99% of the time, down shift and give it full throttle and drive the rear of the car through the turn, and not spin out.. Lugging it in a high gear will enable the rear to come around to a point that is very eye opening at the guard rail.. Likewise, the 911 has a heavy push at low speeds.. It simple will go straight! One has to transfer the weight to the front, either trail braking or turning while still slowing down to help the slower corners. If I was a novice and either backed out of it or hit the brakes, it would all be over... Now on the 69 2002, the car handles much much more neutral. It tends to enter the turns with over steer then changes to neutral and on the exits either 4 wheel drifts or has a small push.. Pretty much predictable... It was a real change driving the 02 after the 911. One of nuisances of the 02 was the lifting of the rear suspension, always on the inside of the turn side.. Driving on the Streets of S.F. the car would lift the pass side rear tire on a right trunk helped greatly, but the car needs a larger sway bar to settle the problem even further.

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> In your 2002, however, like > > any other good rear-wheel drive front-engined car, you could, possibly, > > de-clutch and let the car rebalance and the front wheels steer you around > > the corner until you were straight enough to apply more power. > De-clutching > > in a rear-engined car (especially the beasts in GPL) near the limit will > > more often than not induce a spin-out. > > I can't really figure-out from your comments whether you disagree with > any > > of this...?? So I tried to make my point more clearly and with more > detail. > > I believe GPL reacts very naturally and as one would expect regarding > > steering input during near-limit corerning. > > Marc. > Putting the clutch in on any car that is at the limit of adhesion will > unload the chassis and induce a spin, esp in a rear engined car like the > 911, infact I don't think you would get your foot on the clutch before the > 911 would turn around on you. The olders ones are very vindictive when you > drive them incorrectly. Infast lifting off the gas at the limit in a 911 > will induce a spin. > A front engined car will react a bit slower then a car with its motor > outside the wheels. It will tho spin just the same. Infact the desing of > older BMWs will induce oversteer at the limit and lifting just makes it > worse, declutching would not balance the car either. It would unload the > chassis a bit in probly induce the spin faster, at least it does in my Solo > ll car. > A typical mid-engined car will exhibit a power on understeer, power off > oversteer and be neutral at neutral throttle. Drive a 914-4 and this will > prove this out. With GPL you have an abunance of HP to work with so you > can induce oversteer anytime you want, but you should notice that off > throttle it tends to oversteer and on throttle understeer to a point of > where the power overcomes the tires. > One last thing if you decide to try the declutching on a 66 to 90 911 and > are rich please put me in your will. > Dave

Exacty! Its either we both have the same steering wheel combo (Nascar Sprint) or the writers missed real life!

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> I'm with you, I think it's wierd. If you start to spin right, turn > right and let off the throttle and you'll stop spinning. I've > always wondered if anybody else thought it was wierd. > rob. > >I Don't believe so, My real cars are both rear engined (911S) and a front > >engined (2002 ti) and both react to the rear stepping out the in same > >manner. Counter steer the slide and apply throttle.. The 911 has a > >distinctive need for more throttle than the 2002, but the results are the > >same. > >If I steer into the slide in GPL, the car will straighten itself out and be > >pointed straight on the track. Whereas If I counter steer the car in a > >slide with power on, the car will always spin out and be pointed in the > >opposite direction.... > >Counter intuitive... > >> It is counter correct only if you forget you are driving a rear-engined > >> vehicle. > >> Marc. > >> >It seems very weird that when the car starts to slide, and I counter > >> >steer as I do in a real car, the car in GPL always spins out.. > >> >I fought the resistance to counter steer and actually steered into the > >> >slide and the car straightened itself out... > >> >This is counter correct... > >> >Anyone else notice this?

Exactly Rick, I have seen to many new guys driving 911s at PCA events lift off throttle in oversteer situations at Heartland Park and buy a wall with their 911s. Dave

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> No, I mean exactly that.. When the car starts to slide, I counter steer into the > slide, and the car spins around every time, and stops, pointing the wrong > direction, no matter how soon I start to catch it, no matter how minor the > slide. > However, if I do the complete real life wrong thing, over steer a slide, the car > either straightens itself out on the side of the course or even less, spins > around and points the correct direction.. > Maybe its the steering wheel that I have? Nascar Sprint????

Ric, I've experienced this too. I know exactly what you mean, and I think I know why it's happening... In a real car, when you start to slide, you counter steer in to the slide to catch it. When you do, the front wheels of your car always try to align themselves with the direction of the cars travel, so it's easy to find the right spot to move the steering to. It feels as if it wants to go there. In GPL, when you counter steer, you don't have the feel for the correct wheel position, you only have the springs. Thus it's hard to judge exactly where to correct to with the wheel. Now, once a slide starts, the slip angles at all 4 wheels increases. To save the slide from becoming a spin, there are two things that can be done. THe firsts and most logical would be to counter steer into the slide. Two problems with this approach in a sim, however... First, you don't have the feel of exactly where the wheel needs to be (when you counter steer to save a slide, you want to get the front wheels to near zero slip angle.) What actually happens in most counter steer situations in GPL is that you reduce the front slip angle, but not far enough or fast enough. THe result is MORE cornering force at the front end, just when you don't want it. Next time you counter steer to save a slide in GPL, try moving the wheel faster then you usually do, and about twice as far. After some practice, you'll find yourself making those saves. The other approach, while not the best in the real world, works better in GPL. INStead of counter steering, over steer with the slide. This has the immediate result of INCREASING the slip angles at the front, and you instantly have LESS cornering force at the front end, and the slide straightens out as a result. Remember, GPL cars are very light mid engine cars, much lower polar moment than a rear engined Porsche 911... if you can't counter steer almost instantly to zero slip angle (and it's damned hard without the "feel") you're better off oversteering to save a slide. If you try to counter steer and don't get to zero slip angle almost instantly, around they go... Hope this made some sense... I haven't had my coffee yet today... Trips

An excellent explanation and a very plausible response. I think that it is simply more seat time with GPL that has allowed me to react to it more fluidly--but you are right that the essential steering wheel feedback that helps you know where to point the front wheels is (expectedly) absent. Marc. >> No, I mean exactly that.. When the car starts to slide, I counter steer into the >> slide, and the car spins around every time, and stops, pointing the wrong >> direction, no matter how soon I start to catch it, no matter how minor the >> slide. >> However, if I do the complete real life wrong thing, over steer a slide, the car >> either straightens itself out on the side of the course or even less, spins

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>> around and points the correct direction.. >> Maybe its the steering wheel that I have? Nascar Sprint???? >Ric, >I've experienced this too. I know exactly what you mean, and I think I >know why it's happening... >In a real car, when you start to slide, you counter steer in to the >slide to catch it. When you do, the front wheels of your car always try >to align themselves with the direction of the cars travel, so it's easy >to find the right spot to move the steering to. It feels as if it wants >to go there. In GPL, when you counter steer, you don't have the feel for >the correct wheel position, you only have the springs. Thus it's hard to >judge exactly where to correct to with the wheel. >Now, once a slide starts, the slip angles at all 4 wheels increases. To >save the slide from becoming a spin, there are two things that can be >done. THe firsts and most logical would be to counter steer into the >slide. Two problems with this approach in a sim, however... First, you >don't have the feel of exactly where the wheel needs to be (when you >counter steer to save a slide, you want to get the front wheels to near >zero slip angle.) What actually happens in most counter steer situations >in GPL is that you reduce the front slip angle, but not far enough or >fast enough. THe result is MORE cornering force at the front end, just >when you don't want it. Next time you counter steer to save a slide in >GPL, try moving the wheel faster then you usually do, and about twice as >far. After some practice, you'll find yourself making those saves. >The other approach, while not the best in the real world, works better >in GPL. INStead of counter steering, over steer with the slide. This has >the immediate result of INCREASING the slip angles at the front, and you >instantly have LESS cornering force at the front end, and the slide >straightens out as a result. >Remember, GPL cars are very light mid engine cars, much lower polar >moment than a rear engined Porsche 911... if you can't counter steer >almost instantly to zero slip angle (and it's damned hard without the >"feel") you're better off oversteering to save a slide. If you try to >counter steer and don't get to zero slip angle almost instantly, around >they go... >Hope this made some sense... I haven't had my coffee yet today... >Trips

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> Remember, GPL cars are very light mid engine cars, much lower polar > moment than a rear engined Porsche 911... if you can't counter steer > almost instantly to zero slip angle (and it's damned hard without the > "feel") you're better off oversteering to save a slide. If you try to > counter steer and don't get to zero slip angle almost instantly, around > they go... > Hope this made some sense... I haven't had my coffee yet today...

This is what I noticed.. Over steering works far better and more consistent than counter steering... Weird world.. Ric

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> I've experienced this too. I know exactly what you mean, and I think I > know why it's happening... > In a real car, when you start to slide, you counter steer in to the > slide to catch it. When you do, the front wheels of your car always try > to align themselves with the direction of the cars travel, so it's easy > to find the right spot to move the steering to. It feels as if it wants > to go there. In GPL, when you counter steer, you don't have the feel for > the correct wheel position, you only have the springs. Thus it's hard to > judge exactly where to correct to with the wheel.

Exactly. The object is to reduce the later force of the tires at the front of the car relative to the back causing the car to rotate back toward the direction of travel. But, the best technique to accomplish this depends somewhat on what caused the loss of the back end in the first place (power slide, trail braking, etc.). While counter steering is more difficult in a sim because of the lack of feel, it will work if you get it right and for me is, along with a slight lift of the throttle, the preferred way to save a power slide exiting a turn . As for the more vicious problem of loosing the back end when entering a turn, there's another technique I've not seen mentioned here. If you have separate brake and throttle axis, a stab of the brake while maintaining part throttle will swing the nose toward the outside of the turn saving a spin. If you get it right the effect is very sudden and almost magical. The only draw back is you loose a lot of speed compared to counter steering. But if you know in your heart you're about to loose it, it's better than a spin. This works because applying the brakes in a slide causes more loss of lateral grip in the front tires than the back because part throttle cancels some of the braking in the rear tires. More lateral grip at the rear than in front points the car toward the outside of the turn. One other advantage with this is there is no sawing back and forth of the steering wheel required with the risk of subsequent loss of control. How many times have we saved the initial slide only to loose it to a snap spin in the other direction, or at least had to stay out of the throttle until the car (and driver) settled down. I've not been able to get anyone with a 911 to let me test the throttle & brake technique. Go figure. I suspect it would work well. 'Course Danny Ongais who raced 930 turbos said he would drive his 930 street car fast only in a straight line. Very....Hope I did. I've had too much coffee. Marty