AMD 400 vs Intel PII 450

Ok Gurus, I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well though), NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything else. Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? -Tim A. Deatherage "Admitted Sim ***"

AMD is the way to go. the amd k-6 II 400 is almost as fast as a pentium 450, and alot cheaper.

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>Ok Gurus, >I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my >Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II >card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. >FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well though), >NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything >else. >Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! >Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. >Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? >-Tim A. Deatherage >"Admitted Sim ***"

Intel - no compatiblity problems, avoid problems with AGP and Super Socket 7 boards, and more upgrade possiblities (depending on the motherboard you select)

I just built me an AMD k6-2 400system for about $1200. It includes the following: 1) New ATX Case 2)Asus P5A Mobo 3)AMD K6-2 400 Mhz 4)Diamond MOnster II 12 meg 5)Diamond TNT Nvidia AGP 6)8.4 gig HD (IBM) 7)40X CDRom 8)CL 128 PCI Sound Card 9)128 meg PC100 RAM I'm builing it myself, so if you can do it yourself you can save a ton of money. -The Rodster

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>Ok Gurus, >I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my >Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II >card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. >FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well though), >NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything >else. >Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! >Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. >Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? >-Tim A. Deatherage >"Admitted Sim ***"

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> Ok Gurus, > I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my > Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II > card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. > FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well though), > NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything > else. > Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! > Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. > Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? > -Tim A. Deatherage > "Admitted Sim ***"

Tim, I'd stay with Intel, you will not get the same level of performance from any AMD product so far no matter what the AMD owners may claim. However with the advent of the K7 this may change, in fact I'm seriously thinking about one myself. I just got a Celeron 300A/ABIT BH6 combo with 64 meg of PC100 and an ATX case all for $473.00, I think this is a decent price to go from 208 mhz to 450 :). Trev

> AMD is the way to go. the amd k-6 II 400 is almost as fast as a pentium > 450, and alot cheaper. Where do you get this info from? "Almost as fast" not according to all the performance ratings I have read, "A lot cheaper" again not true, evidently you havent priced the Celeron 300A which can easily be OC'd to 450. Trev

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> > Ok Gurus, > > I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my > > Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II > > card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. > > FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well though), > > NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything > > else. > > Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! > > Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. > > Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? > > -Tim A. Deatherage > > "Admitted Sim ***" > Tim, I'd stay with Intel, you will not get the same level of performance > from any AMD product so far no matter what the AMD owners may claim. > However with the advent of the K7 this may change, in fact I'm seriously > thinking about one myself. > I just got a Celeron 300A/ABIT BH6 combo with 64 meg of PC100 and an ATX > case all for $473.00, I think this is a decent price to go from 208 mhz > to 450 :). > Trev

I'd disagree with that. I have a K6-333 with a Voodoo 2 and get identical performance compared to a P2-400 for GPL and N2. Framerates don't lie, and they're IDENTICAL on these two machines. with identical setups. The Celeron may or may NOT overclock well. With the extra cash you have to spend on the ABIT motherboard its cheaper to buy a K6. And just as fast for games. My 02 cents.. -Richard ---Who has WAY too many computers at home -- ---------------------------------------------- |Richard Scott | Sr System Administrator | |Dallas Ops Center| http://www.premtec.com | ----------------------------------------------

<<you will not get the same level of performance from any AMD product so far no matter what the AMD owners may claim.>>> Tell me please, what area wouldnt I get the same performance? I was not an AMD fan till I bought this K6-2 cpu. but I'll tell you, for the money its DARN good. yes the celeron 300a is also good from what I understand, but let me ask this, had it not been for the 300a, or the "a" series celerons, would you all still be paying 500+ dollars for the "genuine" P2's,so you could run at 450? or would you have considered a much less expensive AMD processor? T

All I can say guys, is you get what you pay for. I'll stick with Intel.

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:13:49 -0800, "Tim Deatherage"

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>Ok Gurus, >I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my >Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II >card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. >FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well though), >NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything >else. >Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! >Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. >Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? >-Tim A. Deatherage >"Admitted Sim ***"

I would defenitely go for a Celeron 333A with an ABit BH6 Mainboard. And then overclock it to about 416 Mhz, that's what mine is running perfectly now. It's much cheaper than the PII 400 or PII 450 and for games it runs almost at the same speed.

>> AMD is the way to go. the amd k-6 II 400 is almost as fast as a pentium >> 450, and alot cheaper. >the performance ratings I have read, "A lot cheaper" again not true, >evidently you havent priced the Celeron 300A which can easily be OC'd to >450. I tend to trust the benchmarks I've seen on the 'net and we have several K6-2 350's inhouse - they're UNimpressive to say the least! So I agree with your first comment, BUT the K6-2 400 IS SIGNIFCANTLY less than the P2-450. It is also SIGNICANTLY MORE expensive than the Celeron 300A which, as you mentioned, is very o'clocking-friendly. Summing up: PERSONAL opinion is Celeron 300A o'clocked to 450 is the ONLY way to fly. To expand a K6-2 beyond 400 would require motherboard replacement usually. Most new motherboards support bus speeds up to 133MHz, so replacing the CPU in a Celeron system is about ALL that would be required to boost its speed... "Gunner"

SNIP I know this was a slip but: Turbo 100 mhz=103*4.5= ca 464 mhz 112*4.5=504 mhz My C300A runs totally stable at 464 mhz at 1.9 volts. For 504 mhz I have to increase voltage to 2.1. Regards K.S. Br?nnick

SNIP Then you have different experiences than me. A posting in this newsgroup described the following scenario: K6-2350, 128 mb ram, CL V2 12 mb With ALL graphics settings maximized in GPL (Max detail bias, all graphics features, and all details , also full mirrors. In others words, everything was on.) and 19 AI opponents he got 7.5 fps at the last place of the grid at the start at Monaco. My "old" 350 PII got about 14.8 with identical specs (CL V2 12 mb, 128 mb ram). This is almost double speed pr. mhz. Are you stretching the truth a bit? Please report your numbers and lets see if your K6 333 is twice as fast as a K6-2 350. K.S. Br?nnick

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>Ok Gurus, >I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my >Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II >card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. >FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well though), >NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything >else. >Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! >Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. >Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? >-Tim A. Deatherage >"Admitted Sim ***" >Tim, i found this on alt.com.hardware.overclocking and thought it might be of value to you

I have abit BX6 with C300A running at 504 Mhz for over a month now with no probs...and and all the racing sims work great..... I just wanted to post yet another success story and give a hearty THANKS to this group for all the advice and annecdotes that made my OC venture a success. Four days ago I got the following: Abit BH6 Celeron 300a SL32A Retail Box, Malaysia 128MB clone PC100 SDRAM ATI All-in-Wonder Pro AGP2X (wanted video capture and PC2TV) Sound Blaster PCI 128 (wanted a good sound card for voice recognition) Quantum 12.7GB UDMA2 5400 rpm 9.5ms (5400 instead of 7200 for quiet operation) Cheap clone case ($80CDN = $55US) Creative (Panasonic 588) 32X IDE CD (mutli-read capable for CD-RW compatibility) Old Intel Pro/10 ISA network card (had it lying around) Old Adaptec 1542B (yes 'B'... (had it lying around), good for future flatbed scanner/CD-RW/Tape drive usage) NT 4.0, SP4 Paperport Strobe Parallel sheet-fed scanner First night, I stuck in an old 600MB IDE drive as my 12.7 was still in transit. The ABit and 300a booted right away at 300MHz. I immediately choose the default "user defined" setting in Softmenu II which was conveniently set up for 100MHz FSB, 4.5x clock (gee, is Abit making the BH6 specifically for us 300a overclockers?!), and with in a minute it was running at 450MHz. I didn't even need to change the voltage from the default 2.00v. I had chosen the retail box version of the 300a for the following reasons: 3 year warranty, better quality fan than most OEM versions. I put in a 2nd case fan on the front of the case in the space provided for it. All is running fine. You will note that I'm running NT as I find it much more stable than 95/98. Also, NT is a bit more demanding on hardware (CPU/motherboard/cache/ram) than 95/98 and so it was nice to see it all running without a hitch. A note for those intending to run NT on IDE drives bigger than 8GB. The NT install will only see an 8057GB drive when you run the install. Don't panic. Create a partition of 4096GB or less and install NT on it. Patch the install to SP3 or greater. Run disk administrator. You should now see the rest of the disk as available space. Partition it the way you like and assign the drive letters to what you want. Myself, for my 12.7GB Quantum, I created a 3GB C: for the OS and incidentals, a 3GB D: for applications, and a 6GB E: for data. To get the D: and E: drive letters, I first had to unassign the D: that was given to my CD. Then I assigned D: and E: to the new partitions (I used primary instead of extended) and finally assigned J: to my CD. I intend to use my PC for business use and not home/hobby/games and so I was a bit concerned about reliability. You guys here in this newsgroup and a couple of great OC websites helped me come to the conclusion that the 300a/450 overclock would be a stable one. As I need max reliability, I'm not going to push for 112/464. I'm not even going to do the 2.5% turbo. I'm very happy with this free performance boost that makes my computer amongst the fastest that Intel makes (not counting SMP machines). A comment about heat. I have seen some of you recommend quite strongly about cooling. After running the system for hours, I didn't notice my retail box 300a getting hot at all. Further, I felt the back of the CPU and while it was quite warm to the touch, it didn't burn my fingers. So I'm am curious to know why some of you are running these 'double sandwich' heatsink and fan combos. It sure doesn't seem to need it, even at 450. ...and because I'm a freak about quietness, I'm even thinking of removing that 2nd case fan I installed, preferring to let convection cool the system by leaving open any slots I'm not using and letting only the power supply fan draw the cool air in and the warm air out the top of the case. (Probably not though, because the cheap power supply in this cheap case probably has a cheap fan that will fail in about a year or so and the 2nd case fan could keep things somewhat cool if I don't notice).

Whats wrong with a Celeron 300A running at 450MHz? Cheaper too... -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

Agreed......I know many AMD owners who have spent a lot of time with new generation video card issues, and AGP/USB probs. And, for example, the Asus P2B mb will support up to 133mhz bus speeds, which will make it compatible with the next generation of Intel chips, up to 550, and maybe even higher. It is mainly a personal decision, and a financial one. The only reason I went the Intel route myself is the problems with socket-7 compatability with some hardware. As far as which is better, I have no comment, other than the benchmarks we have all seen. The AMDs are cheaper for a fact, but always said to be "almost as fast" as the P2 counterparts. The Celeron-A is also a good choice for those comfortable overclocking. Most get 450 easy, and some claim over 500. I am not sure about the latter being as stable as some say, but it very well could be.

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>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:13:49 -0800, "Tim Deatherage" >>Ok Gurus, >>I've been pricing custom built systems for Intel 450 versus AMD 400 and my >>Intel bid is about $ 1800 vs. $ 1500 (or less) for AMD with Voodoo II >>card,speakers, AGP slot, 64k ram and everything else the same also. >>FWIW, I'm running N2 (on ten only ) N99, CART, GPL ( Not very well

though),

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>>NHRA DR, Burnout, F1RS, Castrol GP, Motoracer, and every demo on anything >>else. >>Is AMD worth the price decrease? I've always stayed with Intel before ! >>Right now, I'm running a HP P166mmx with 32 mb ram, Diamond Voodoo card. >>Any opinions on which way to go? ? ? >>-Tim A. Deatherage >>"Admitted Sim ***"

Another option is the P2-400, which will bring you down to the AMD price range, with little performance hit. If you take a look at the majority of benchmarks, there is little diff. between the 400 and 450, and the price is the biggest hit. The P2-400 outperforms the AMD in every benchmark I have seen. You won't have any compatibilty issues to contend with either.

>I intend to use my PC for business use and not home/hobby/games and so >I was a bit concerned about reliability. You guys here in this Strange you chose NT for an OS then... Linux is the way to go if you expect reliability and stability in daily operation. Cheers, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

Hey guys, Lately I've seen some adapters for fitting other CPU's in Slot 1 motherboards. Has anyone heard of an adapter that would fit an AMD CPU in a Slot 1 motherboard? won't do 450) and I'm thinking about switching to AMD technology if they release affordable, fast (500? 600?) and reliable CPUs for 1999. Thought about the K-7 too, but that would require a new motherboard because of their new Slot A. Anyway, has anyone thought about switching to AMD without changing their Slot 1 motherboard? Is this possible? A. Renault

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>Hey guys, >Lately I've seen some adapters for fitting other CPU's in Slot 1 >motherboards. Has anyone heard of an adapter that would fit an AMD >CPU in a Slot 1 motherboard? >won't do 450) and I'm thinking about switching to AMD technology if >they release affordable, fast (500? 600?) and reliable CPUs for 1999. >Thought about the K-7 too, but that would require a new motherboard >because of their new Slot A. Anyway, has anyone thought about >switching to AMD without changing their Slot 1 motherboard? Is this >possible? >A. Renault

Can you post your hardware specs as I'm very suprised that a C300A won't do 450 Mhz. I have mine running at 504 Mhz for over a month now .

long as a untouched P2 450 as long as it is kept cool.>> You guys are the ones that keep sayin "you get what you pay for" <G>

>>I intend to use my PC for business use and not home/hobby/games and so >>I was a bit concerned about reliability. You guys here in this >Strange you chose NT for an OS then... Linux is the way to go if >you expect reliability and stability in daily operation. ..and don't really want to run too much software. The only thing worse than an OS "holy war" would be to rehash the CPR issue all over again. There are hundreds of newsgroups specially catering for anyone wanting to slag off each other's OS, so let's not get yet another massive off topic "Y2K" type discussion started. Cheers! John

>What is up with this overclocked celery crap. For those of you that feel the >need to o/c then go with the celery processor. But, if you want the cpu to >last and be fast at the same time, well then AMD 350 or 400 is the way to go. >AND, it came with built in cache from the start. Yes, you get what you pay >for, so don't expect an o/c celery to last as long as a non overclocked amd >400 or a PII 450 (not overclocked). Yes, it will only last 10 years as opposed to the 11 years of the real one. What, you have no intention of keeping it that long? Oh, maybe then it's better to save yourself hundreds of dollars. Cheers! John

>so let's not > get yet another massive off topic "Y2K" type discussion started. It was off topic ever since you realized you don't know squat about it. Up until that point, you freely participated by offering your 'expert' opinion. Serve yourself. After all, no one else will! <ggg> Rick

> Can you post your hardware specs as I'm very suprised that a C300A won't do 450 Mhz. > I have mine running at 504 Mhz for over a month now . Celeron 300A ASUS P2B 64 MB SDRAM 8 ns State of the art CPU cooler and heatsink ;o) (Don't know the brand but I've been told it's a good one from someone who runs his C300A at 450 MHz with a much smaller heatsink - Anyway my CPU wasn't hot when I touched it after trying 450 MHz) When I tried overclocking to 450 MHz, the system did its normal boot-up sequence, and then it froze just as it usually displays "Starting up Windows 98" (or something like that...). I think there's all the info you need, but if you need more, here they are: 2 Quantum Fireball HD Hercules Thriller 3D AGP 8 MB Canopus Pure 3D 6 MB SB16 Thanks for any help! A. Renault

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>> Can you post your hardware specs as I'm very suprised that a C300A won't do 450 Mhz. >> I have mine running at 504 Mhz for over a month now . >Celeron 300A >ASUS P2B >64 MB SDRAM 8 ns >State of the art CPU cooler and heatsink ;o) (Don't know the brand >but I've been told it's a good one from someone who runs his C300A at >450 MHz with a much smaller heatsink - Anyway my CPU wasn't hot when I >touched it after trying 450 MHz) >When I tried overclocking to 450 MHz, the system did its normal >boot-up sequence, and then it froze just as it usually displays >"Starting up Windows 98" (or something like that...). >I think there's all the info you need, but if you need more, here they >are: >2 Quantum Fireball HD >Hercules Thriller 3D AGP 8 MB >Canopus Pure 3D 6 MB >SB16 >Thanks for any help! >A. Renault

You need to bump up your CPU core voltage from standard 2.0v which the C300A runs at. This is very easily accomplished with an Abit BH or BX motherboard SoftMenu2 in the BIOS/CMOS which I have. I bumped my CPU core voltage from 2.0v to 2.3v to get complete stability at 504 Mhz. If I tried to run at 504 Mhz with 2.2v I would get exactly same problem as you have. Anyway, your C300A will run at 450 Mhz and above if you are willing to tape some pins on the C300A to bump up the voltage, you need to do this because your mobo doesn't have Softmenu core voltage regulator in BIOS/CMOS. By the look of things you only need to bump up voltage from 2.0v to 2.1 or 2.2 at most. Intel do not recommend going over 2.3v but overclockers have taken C300A up to 2.5v with good cooling without any side effects. There is a excellent article here http://www.bunt.com/~jcoon/celeron/voltage1.htm with great diagrams on how to tape or nail polish C300A pins to bump up the voltage. I've heard that nail polish can be used in lieu of tape and works better. Also, you can go to the newsgroups alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus or alt.comp.hardware.overclocking and post any problems you are having. I'm 99.9% certain your C300A will run 450 Mhz and above if you tape or nail polish the C300a pins to increase voltage. Life would have been much simpler if you bought the Abit BX or BH motherboard... Let me know if you need any more help........Chatham PS There is also a article on Tom's Hardware about what is best material to use to insulate the C300A pins........Snip I have read your section on isolating the B21 lead on the Pentium II cartridge. Suggestions you have listed are: nail polish, electrician's tape, anti-corona dope" high-voltage insulating paint, model airplane paint, or splicing tape for analog recording cassettes. I hesitate to use any of these methods because the constituent materials were not specifically designed for this type of use. Nail polish and model airplane tape may have small capacitances due to their dielectric behavior thereby creating an unstable electrical joint. Insulating paints, on the other hand, may have abrasive surfaces that will eventually wear down the Slot 1 mating connectors. In addition, thermal cycling and pressure may cause the interface between paints or nail polish and the B21 lead to fracture, causing flaking of the material. This result could be a short between neighboring leads. While none of these problems have yet been observed, I have a simple and cheap solution that may eliminate all these potential issues. The answer? Teflon tape. Teflon is a unique material that has an extremely low friction constant, excellent dielectric strength (no leakage current), and is resilient to temperature fluctuations. In tape form, Teflon is relatively soft and can be easily stretched with ones hands. The smooth, soft surface eliminates abrasive problems and will conform to the B21 lead/Slot 1 contact. The tape can be applied and removed very easily unlike nail polish or paint. The operating temperature of Teflon is roughly -100 F to + 500 F (-70 C to + 260 C) so thermal cycling should not pose a problem. For an example of Teflon's use in isolating electrical components, one need look no further than Granite Digital (www.scsipro.com), a premier SCSI cable supplier. Their cabling is considered the best by many and uses Teflon instead of the standard PVC. from http://www.tomshardware.com/Celeronto100.html

>It was off topic ever since you realized you don't know squat about it. Rick, it was off-topic, period. You remain blissfully unaware of this fact, obviously not being overly weighed down with the burdens of intelligence. Your endless gibbering on about Y2K has nothing to do with saving people and being a good samaritan by offering your knowledge to the world, simply that you've found an audience who will listen. If you want to do good for the workd you should go post elsewhere, since this particular newsgroup is NOT LISTENING TO YOU. I think you owe it to the rest of humanity to sod off to a high traffic group like rec.sports.soccer and try and save them. No, I simply pointed out one or two of the many flaws in yours. I gave up eventually since it lacked challenge and was keeping a dead discussion going. Should this be "save" or are we discussing some kind of buffet now? Go away Rick... Cheers! John

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>What is up with this overclocked celery crap. For those of you that feel the >need to o/c then go with the celery processor. But, if you want the cpu to >last and be fast at the same time, well then AMD 350 or 400 is the way to go. >AND, it came with built in cache from the start. Yes, you get what you pay >for, so don't expect an o/c celery to last as long as a non overclocked amd >400 or a PII 450 (not overclocked). Celery is only good for one thing =) >Fortunetly, AMD has already done that with 68% of the 1,500 dollar PC MARKET. >GO AMD GO!!!

You're just annoyed because we're running faster for cheaper. So what if my CPU only lasts 5 years instead of 10 or 15? What makes you think any gamer is going to keep a CPU longer than about 2 years (at the maximum!). If you want to be trudging along at 450 in ten years time, then buy your P2 or AMD K6-2. We'll all be happily *** at 4X that by then. -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

If you're getting 38fps then you've maxxed out GPL - you then can't tell which of the chips is more powerful or has capacity to do more. Not saying that is the case, just pointing out a possibility. I'd expect the P2-400 to be the quicker of the two by some margin, but also to leave by far the bigger hole in your pocket. Cheers! John

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>>I'd disagree with that. I have a K6-333 with a Voodoo 2 and get >>identical performance compared to a P2-400 for GPL and N2. >If you're getting 38fps then you've maxxed out GPL - you then can't >tell which of the chips is more powerful or has capacity to do more. >Not saying that is the case, just pointing out a possibility. I'd >expect the P2-400 to be the quicker of the two by some margin, but >also to leave by far the bigger hole in your pocket. >Cheers! >John

John, From your post,I'm assuming that 38fps is the max one can get from gpl? Well,I recently upgraded to a K6-2/350 and a motherboard with 100mhz front side bus with 64mb of SDRAM. I'm running a Diamond Monster Voodoo1,and I've seen frame rates as high a 38 in practice. With full fields of 19 cars,I still see fps in the mid to upper 20s. Joel Willstein