After being hanged for disagreeing with a CERTAIN group of r.a.s. regulars
about GPL's online capabilities, I thought I'd post something they might
find interesting. While I think the people at Papyrus are obviously loaded
with talent, I still realize (like I'm sure the Papyrus employees would
readily admit) that there are many, many other talented people in the sim
industry. They don't all start and end their careers with one company
either.
Whether or not you are interested in the style of racing game, the
technology I'm about to describe should interest everyone here.
Thedevelopers of Powerslide have created something very special. They have
developed a graphics engine which runs at 60 fps and 300,000 polygons per
second. The cars have 800 polygons compared to the avg. of 150-300. Smooth
as silk. And yes, the physics model is VERY advanced (150 variables and 33
graphs define the relationship between variables) so don't try and tell me
that the physics model is so weak which enables a high frame rate. The
graphics engine is cutting edge and that's why it runs so fast.
What I've been TRYING to explain to some of you is that the arguement that
online *** technology has hit the wall and we have to accept the status
quo is not true. The Powerslide developers have created a unique internet
multiplay system which is fantastic. They use innovative compression
techniques (remember this) and quaternionic orientation smoothing to deal
with internet latency problems and their system compensates for the
deficiencies in a network. It has a system of even information distribution
and synchronisation between the different players that allows the game to
continue smoothly even if a player(s), including the host, drops out.
Telling people to "get a new ISP" is poor advice. Telling them that there is
no way to make intenet racing better due to the condition of the internet is
wrong. There are MANY very talented people who are spread out among the
different developers in racing sims who are able to do some fascinating and
innovative work. That's why I get annoyed with some of you who are so damn
quick to just***on the developers of sims. You might want to open your
eyes and stop with the bu**shit comments that I read so often and start
researching what these talented people are creating.
David G Fisher
<bunch o'bullsh*t snipped>
<more bullsh*t snipped>
How many variables in F1RS physics model? How many "graphs"?? How about in GPL?
or Nascar2? or MGPRS? Is the "number of variables" even a direct indicator of
how computationally intensive a particular physics model is?
Thanks for playing, please try again!
Trips
Uhhhhhhh......... is Powerslide a sim? Can anybody else hear a loud buzzer in
the background announcing a NO!!!!!????
Quoted text (38 lines)
> After being hanged for disagreeing with a CERTAIN group of r.a.s. regulars > about GPL's online capabilities, I thought I'd post something they might > find interesting. While I think the people at Papyrus are obviously loaded > with talent, I still realize (like I'm sure the Papyrus employees would > readily admit) that there are many, many other talented people in the sim > industry. They don't all start and end their careers with one company > either. > Whether or not you are interested in the style of racing game, the > technology I'm about to describe should interest everyone here. > Thedevelopers of Powerslide have created something very special. They have > developed a graphics engine which runs at 60 fps and 300,000 polygons per > second. The cars have 800 polygons compared to the avg. of 150-300. Smooth > as silk. And yes, the physics model is VERY advanced (150 variables and 33 > graphs define the relationship between variables) so don't try and tell me > that the physics model is so weak which enables a high frame rate. The > graphics engine is cutting edge and that's why it runs so fast. > What I've been TRYING to explain to some of you is that the arguement that > online *** technology has hit the wall and we have to accept the status > quo is not true. The Powerslide developers have created a unique internet > multiplay system which is fantastic. They use innovative compression > techniques (remember this) and quaternionic orientation smoothing to deal > with internet latency problems and their system compensates for the > deficiencies in a network. It has a system of even information distribution > and synchronisation between the different players that allows the game to > continue smoothly even if a player(s), including the host, drops out. > Telling people to "get a new ISP" is poor advice. Telling them that there is > no way to make intenet racing better due to the condition of the internet is > wrong. There are MANY very talented people who are spread out among the > different developers in racing sims who are able to do some fascinating and > innovative work. That's why I get annoyed with some of you who are so damn > quick to just***on the developers of sims. You might want to open your > eyes and stop with the bu**shit comments that I read so often and start > researching what these talented people are creating. > David G Fisher>Uhhhhhhh......... is Powerslide a sim? Can anybody else hear a loud buzzer in
>the background announcing a NO!!!!!????
>> Whether or not you are interested in the style of racing game, the
>> technology I'm about to describe should interest everyone here.
What word in the sentence above can't you understand?
I knew the INEVITABLE "not a sim" comment would come quickly. I'll put my
knowledge of sims, and my skill at driving them up against you any day so
save that ***for another thread.
David G Fisher
On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:39:43 -0500, "David G Fisher"
>I knew the INEVITABLE "not a sim" comment would come quickly. I'll put my
>knowledge of sims, and my skill at driving them up against you any day so
>save that ***for another thread.
Just so I know to set a kill filter for a couple of days, are you guys
gonna start comparing*** size now, or go by the way of whose Dad is
bigger first of all?
;-)
Cheers!
John
Hey, quaternions !! I haven't heard that word in a few years. Some of
the control system guys in the missile design team I used to work in
some years back used quarternion systems for describing missile motion
in simulations. It made some of the calculations simpler, although I
don't remember why exactly (probably never understood really ;O) )
How does this help with the smoothing in this case ?
Andy
> <snip> They use innovative compression
> techniques (remember this) and quaternionic orientation smoothing to deal
> with internet latency problems and their system compensates for the
> deficiencies in a network.
> David G Fisher
On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:10:20 -0500, "David G Fisher"
<snipped lots of good comments>
Not if people want to race GPL online and are currently having poor
performance. The only way to improve things is to get a more
reliable/faster ISP or aa better modem - in other words, improve your
connection.
For future development there is a lot that can be done, and that
ranges from GP2 which elected for totally no networking, far less
thinking about internet, to what people like Microsoft, Papyrus and
the Powerslide developers are doing to improve internet ***. During
all of this the telecoms companies are getting their act together and
bandwidth is increasing, latency dropping, and faster access methods
proliferating. At some point hopefully these paths will cross and
we'll reach a happy nirvana, man :-)
Cheers!
John
Well said.
Bring it on!! GPL. Just you and me. In the alley. Bite me, pal. You said in
your post that some of us are quick to "piss" on developers of "sims." Does
this mean that you consider Powerslide a sim? That is how I interpreted it and
if you took my post the wrong way, I'm sorry. I'm not here to make enemies.
Ryan Kocher
Your friendly Safeway sacker
Quoted text (14 lines)
> >Uhhhhhhh......... is Powerslide a sim? Can anybody else hear a loud buzzer > in > >the background announcing a NO!!!!!???? > >> Whether or not you are interested in the style of racing game, the > >> technology I'm about to describe should interest everyone here. > What word in the sentence above can't you understand? > I knew the INEVITABLE "not a sim" comment would come quickly. I'll put my > knowledge of sims, and my skill at driving them up against you any day so > save that ***for another thread. > David G FisherDavid,
You make some good points. Thanks for
taking the time to introduce some new ideas
into the group.
Regards
Emil
I think you make a very valid and useful argument. It doesn't matter that
the technology is focussed on a piece of software which some wouldn't touch
with a bargepole. What matters is whether that technology can be applied to
other applications. A case in point is in Flight Sims, which require an
enormously assured efficiency in data processing for them to be at all
enjoyable. This nearly always translates to frame rates in the end. Look at
Falcon 4 - wonderful complexity, but at the moment not really playable in
campaign mode on all but the top systems unless you turn off the VERY things
that potentially make this sim a great one.
If you look at comparable sims, whether driving or flying, there is an
enormous variation in the smoothness of play. This inevitably points to
programming efficiency and programming innovations. One of the very best
implementations of a graphics engine I have seen is in Hornet Korea which is
certainly not cutting edge, but it has the most wonderfully designed
aircraft models and the airport scenery is extremely effective using
relatively simple resources. Falcon 4 has much to learn from this, since the
F16 and scenery are not entirely stable (watch the textures jerk to and fro
in runway views even with high frame rates), and despite using 3D graphics,
all structures and runway markings are extremely pixellated (Hornet Korea
somehow manages to paint incredibly smooth lines with minimal pixellation
even at the same resolution).
Smoothness of gameplay is the absolute holy grail for the vast majority of
simmers - If Powerslide developers can achieve this then all credit to them.
I wish developers would look around a bit more and learn from what else is
going on. Maybe they do, but if that was the case, software should be
improving at a greater rate than it currently does.
Robert Young
