A GPL thought on difficulty

I know how everyone says, OH MAN GPL IS HARD and all that but everyones explainasion is, "back in the 60's the cars were very hard to drive cause of all the HP and little grip" this is right but then people think the ONLY reason why it is so hard is casue of the era. Some people still think a Cart car drives like it does in CPR or F1 car like it drives in F1rs or GP2. The physics are getting better but papy used an old era so everyones excuse for its difficulty is not the new technology in the physics model but the time period. Sims are getting harder and harder as they actually start to SIMULATE real life. Just wanted to bring it up, maybe start a conversation or something. Wosco PS If you cant find any way to flame me for what i just said then here is somethign you can take a crack at...One thing that gets me mad is how people treat the cars like the lotii and brabham and all almost like a training thing. People say, in a week i think ill be able to "graduate" or "move up" into the lotus from the coventry or something. Its like everyone wants to drive that fast car and it makes me sick how 7 cars were put into the game but a lot of people are trying to make it into 1 car. I think that a great patch for GPL would be something to even out the cars or make it where the lotus isnt so *** in speed. Maybe something that makes it more unreliable (seeing how many lotii still finish races when in 67 they had many problems has to show something). I for one drive a brabham and my quest is to get down into the lotii times with it so its reliability will prevail in the races. So far the reliability hasnt helped me at all. No time has the person i was following or chasing (being a lotus most of the time in online races) fallen out of a race and handed over the position to me. They always seem to finish decently. OoOPS, kinda long PS huh. My best time at monza in a brabham is 1:29.2 (not speed shifting or rail riding or anything) so im gradually getting down there. my .000002 so if you want to counter anything i said then go right ahaid.

Well, all I can say is that I've only REALLY driven 2 cars. The Ferrari and the Murasama. Now I have hopped in the other cars just to hear them and feel them. But as far as quality time goes, the Ferrari and Murasama are it for me. And now, thank's to Alison Hine's Murasama setups, I think I'll do a season in the Murasama and see how I fair. One last thing, I've also spent quality time on only 3 Tracks. Monza, Kyalami, and Mexico. (Kyalami being my favorite out of this bunch so far...).

Yeah I think you're right! At least the thoughts I've quoted you on. Sure folks can circulate the tracks and improve their times but few are gonna achive the superhuman performances the real drivers did, are they? If it was easy to be S. Moss everyone would be driving F1! We are seeing some GPL super sim drivers whose performance trancends hardware optimums. Meantime, I'm diggin' the immersion! As for evening out the cars, let's not! The Lotus started achiving the right balance of power, weigth and handling in '67 tthat made it a clear winner for a while. The Brab was an interim car whose light weight and small size made it different that its competitors. The Ferrari, well it was red of course. Cooper and Honda won races in this period, but maybe the driver and luck deserve the credit more than nameplates. Or maybe not...

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> I know how everyone says, OH MAN GPL IS HARD and all that but everyones > explainasion is, "back in the 60's the cars were very hard to drive cause of > all the HP and little grip" this is right but then people think the ONLY > reason why it is so hard is casue of the era. Some people still think a Cart > car drives like it does in CPR or F1 car like it drives in F1rs or GP2. The > physics are getting better but papy used an old era so everyones excuse for > its difficulty is not the new technology in the physics model but the time > period. Sims are getting harder and harder as they actually start to > SIMULATE real life. Just wanted to bring it up, maybe start a conversation > or something. > Wosco > PS If you cant find any way to flame me for what i just said then here is > somethign you can take a crack at...One thing that gets me mad is how people > treat the cars like the lotii and brabham and all almost like a training > thing. People say, in a week i think ill be able to "graduate" or "move up" > into the lotus from the coventry or something. Its like everyone wants to > drive that fast car and it makes me sick how 7 cars were put into the game > but a lot of people are trying to make it into 1 car. I think that a great > patch for GPL would be something to even out the cars or make it where the > lotus isnt so *** in speed. Maybe something that makes it more > unreliable (seeing how many lotii still finish races when in 67 they had > many problems has to show something). I for one drive a brabham and my > quest is to get down into the lotii times with it so its reliability will > prevail in the races. So far the reliability hasnt helped me at all. No > time has the person i was following or chasing (being a lotus most of the > time in online races) fallen out of a race and handed over the position to > me. They always seem to finish decently. OoOPS, kinda long PS huh. My > best time at monza in a brabham is 1:29.2 (not speed shifting or rail riding > or anything) so im gradually getting down there. > my .000002 so if you want to counter anything i said then go right ahaid.

Just wanted to let you know that I agree with your opinions on the simulators getting harder as they get more realistic. I personally can't see jumping in any race car in real life and mastering it in the blink of an eye :-)

Does anyone know if any of the actual '67 drivers have spent some time playing GPL and made any comments about realism? tony

Yeah apparently when Surtees was starting out he learned the circuits using GPL. Or something. Ben >Does anyone know if any of the actual '67 drivers have spent some time >playing GPL and made any comments about realism? >tony

First, I want to thank David Fisher for the inspiration for my subject line. Thanks David! ;-) I was ruminating last evening about the "play value" of GPL (for lack of a better phrase) and wanted to wade in with a thought or two. This morning I read the following opinion, snipped from a post I otherwise agree with in some respects ... writes: I, for one, think this is a terrible idea. To me, one of the most brilliant aspects of GPL is the distinctly different cars -- and I think that quality will keep lots of people coming back to GPL after N3 and the next, great modern-day F1 game (whatever that may be) show up. The individual character of the cars in GPL has kept me fascinated and challenged for two and a half months now. Like many, I jumped into the Lotus first. I discovered a few weeks later that I could manage the Eagle more easily, and went about breaking all my best Lotus laps with the Eagle. Several weeks later, I discovered Alison's set-ups for the Coventry, found myself instantly more comfortable in it on many tracks, and proceeded to break many of my best lap times again. Now, about a month later, with all of that additional "seat time," I've gone back to the Lotus and set out to break all of my best laps. I discovered that the Lotus helped me to SHATTER a few, but some of my Coventry and Eagle times were very difficult to beat by more than a couple of hundredths. But it was a hell of a lot of fun trying! In this newsgroup, we hear from many who jumped into the Lotus, got into racing on-line and have been having a ball ever since. There are others who are thrilled at getting under 1:40 at the Glen in trainer cars. And me, I switch back and forth between the three I've mentioned and the Ferrari just to sample the challenges, differences, and (dare I say this?) delights each presents. No other racing sim has given me that level of challenge and variety. I love it, and I expect I'm not the only one out there. (Then again, I could be.) I don't have podium finishes or world-class lap times. But I'll whip anyone out there who says he's having more FUN than me. (Sniff, sniff, wipes away several tears.) Thanks again, Papyrus! Pinebox

I think the comments of some about difficulty come from the fact that some of us suck. I suck. By best time at Kylami is 1:29 something (I'm gonna start a hot lap page for people who suck I think) . Not really that fun to be off the pace by eight seconds. Its not the games fault that I suck but it is the games fault that I can't compete and have fun at my pathetic speed. Ok not really but it is built in that you will get smoked by the best 15 or so drivers. Its the Global hype scaling. Clark is set to .050 or something like that. That number is used as a relation to your best speed at any track. With my best laps at Kylami that means he's doing 1:22s. Consequently he spends alot of time running my sorry ***over. To make a long post short (I know, too late). If you're frustrated, try editing the driver.ini file. Set the global hype scaling to 0.750 for the best driver and start adding for everyone else. Put some over 1.000. No this won't make you faster but you'll FEEL faster. What this sorta does is make your speed the "middle of the pack speed". It does let you learn the tracks without gettng run over and have more fun. Just an idea, Tony

I haven't raced the AI in a long time. I simply prefer online competition. In the last week, I've concentrated almost completely on Mexico, and have improved my time from 1:56 to 1:50 through nothing more than "practice". Sure, I've tweaked my setup hear and there, but there's NO replacement for turning laps. I've pretty much stopped guaging my ability to compete by comparing lap times since it's almost impossible for most folks to complete a lap at ANY of the tracks without at least one or two excursions into the grandstands for beer. When I first got GPL, I drove all of the cars at least once. I picked the car (Eagle) that felt the best to me, and started driving it - I didn't "graduate" or "move up" to the car. I decided that's the car I felt the most comfortable in. I was blowing motors right and left when I first got into the car, and I still do on occasion, but overall, I'd say the Eagle has been good to me, as I'm seeing a lot more podium finishes than i did at the beginning. I've managed what I consider to be some fairly decent times at ALL of the tracks, and for the most part, those times were NOT hotlaps, but were part of practice for a race, or a race itself. I've run a few GP races offline and have finished about 3/4 of each event before becoming a victim of some AI stupidity or an out-and-out loss of concetration on my part. Lots of cars drop out of an online race for whatever reason, but I've only seen one human driver blow up his Lotus' engine during a race. Someone suggested that Papy should level the playing field a little better so that the Lotus isn't the be-all end-all of cars in the sim. Well, they can't really do that because the cars physics are the car's physics. At some point, you have to let the outcome of a race rest in the ability (or inability) of each driver. I think a better idea would be to limit the number of each chassis in a given race. Too many times, I've run an online race where there were as many as 10 Lotii in a field of 12-15 cars. Granted, not all of them could make the car perform to it's full potential, but the mere fact that fully 2/3 or more of the field were green cars with yellow stripes is a little disturbing to anyone driving a different marque. For this very reason, the league I'm running has a restriction as far as the number of any single marque that can be used. Originally, I was going to restrict it to a max of three of each car so that we got a decent mix of cars, but I backed off and bumped it up to a max of four. When you have a limited field due to connection requirements, this can still make for a very lop-sided field. I ended up with 4 eagles, 4 lotus, 4 ferrari, 3 covingtons and a Brabham. Notice any missing from the list? Two of the chassis types aren't even represented. The problem with chassis restricted leagues is you have to wonder how many people are actually going to join the league when there's a possibility that they won't get their preferred chassis. In the end, we should all encourage people like Allison Hine to continue their efforts towards "finding speed" in what have become widely regarded as the "slugs of GPL." If enough respect can be generated for these bastard children of the sim, we may more often see someone powering by an Eagle or Lotus driver in longer races, leaving the "fast" cars picking their way gingerly around the track hoping the don't pop the motor all over creation. -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS Director http://members.home.net/jms1/igps.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

We've been doing the same thing then! I've been exclusively driving Mexico for around 3 days now in preparation for your league :-) I've got my Ferrari fairly dialled in now, and can run consistent 1m50's, with a best of 1m49.7 - so here's hoping for a good race next week! I'm with you on this too - I'd been spending most of my GPL time doing hotlaps in the Lotus but after driving the Ferrari and toying with the Eagle I never want to go back. Hotlapping now means nothing as far as I'm concerned - give me racing! I can't imagine what's going to happen to my social life when I get my cable modem next year.... Cheers! -- Graeme Nash http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk ICQ# 11257824

If you check out some of the web sites there is a utility called "AI Tweaker" that lets you set the "hype" for each driver at each track. If you are really frustrated this can let you enjoy the game. Making the cars just a little faster than you is a great learning tool. buzard

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> I think the comments of some about difficulty come from the fact that some > of us suck. I suck. By best time at Kylami is 1:29 something (I'm gonna > start a hot lap page for people who suck I think) . Not really that fun to > be off the pace by eight seconds. Its not the games fault that I suck but it > is the games fault that I can't compete and have fun at my pathetic speed. > Ok not really but it is built in that you will get smoked by the best 15 or > so drivers. Its the Global hype scaling. Clark is set to .050 or something > like that. That number is used as a relation to your best speed at any > track. With my best laps at Kylami that means he's doing 1:22s. Consequently > he spends alot of time running my sorry ***over. > To make a long post short (I know, too late). If you're frustrated, try > editing the driver.ini file. Set the global hype scaling to 0.750 for the > best driver and start adding for everyone else. Put some over 1.000. No this > won't make you faster but you'll FEEL faster. What this sorta does is make > your speed the "middle of the pack speed". It does let you learn the tracks > without gettng run over and have more fun. > Just an idea, > Tony

I haven't raced the AI in a long time. I simply prefer online competition. In the last week, I've concentrated almost completely on Mexico, and have improved my time from 1:56 to 1:50 through nothing more than "practice". Sure, I've tweaked my setup hear and there, but there's NO replacement for turning laps. I've pretty much stopped guaging my ability to compete by comparing lap times since it's almost impossible for most folks to complete a lap at ANY of the tracks without at least one or two excursions into the grandstands for beer. When I first got GPL, I drove all of the cars at least once. I picked the car (Eagle) that felt the best to me, and started driving it - I didn't "graduate" or "move up" to the car. I decided that's the car I felt the most comfortable in. I was blowing motors right and left when I first got into the car, and I still do on occasion, but overall, I'd say the Eagle has been good to me, as I'm seeing a lot more podium finishes than i did at the beginning. I've managed what I consider to be some fairly decent times at ALL of the tracks, and for the most part, those times were NOT hotlaps, but were part of practice for a race, or a race itself. I've run a few GP races offline and have finished about 3/4 of each event before becoming a victim of some AI stupidity or an out-and-out loss of concetration on my part. Lots of cars drop out of an online race for whatever reason, but I've only seen one human driver blow up his Lotus' engine during a race. Someone suggested that Papy should level the playing field a little better so that the Lotus isn't the be-all end-all of cars in the sim. Well, they can't really do that because the cars physics are the car's physics. At some point, you have to let the outcome of a race rest in the ability (or inability) of each driver. I think a better idea would be to limit the number of each chassis in a given race. Too many times, I've run an online race where there were as many as 10 Lotii in a field of 12-15 cars. Granted, not all of them could make the car perform to it's full potential, but the mere fact that fully 2/3 or more of the field were green cars with yellow stripes is a little disturbing to anyone driving a different marque. For this very reason, the league I'm running has a restriction as far as the number of any single marque that can be used. Originally, I was going to restrict it to a max of three of each car so that we got a decent mix of cars, but I backed off and bumped it up to a max of four. When you have a limited field due to connection requirements, this can still make for a very lop-sided field. I ended up with 4 eagles, 4 lotus, 4 ferrari, 3 covingtons and a Brabham. Notice any missing from the list? Two of the chassis types aren't even represented. The problem with chassis restricted leagues is you have to wonder how many people are actually going to join the league when there's a possibility that they won't get their preferred chassis. In the end, we should all encourage people like Allison Hine to continue their efforts towards "finding speed" in what have become widely regarded as the "slugs of GPL." If enough respect can be generated for these bastard children of the sim, we may more often see someone powering by an Eagle or Lotus driver in longer races, leaving the "fast" cars picking their way gingerly around the track hoping the don't pop the motor all over creation. -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html IGPS Director http://members.home.net/jms1/igps.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

I think most sim ***s have got the hot-lapping bug out of their systems now, and are beginning to enjoy GPL for what it is. Now that there are leagues starting up, the different Marque choices will start to be more prevalent than just the Lotus or the Eagle, as guys realise that there is more to winning races than just going like a bat out of hell for a couple of laps. PS... You won't have a social life.. :-)) Cheers, Ron > >I haven't raced the AI in a long time. I simply prefer online > >competition. In the last week, I've concentrated almost completely on > >Mexico, and have improved my time from 1:56 to 1:50 through nothing more > >than "practice". > We've been doing the same thing then! I've been exclusively driving > Mexico for around 3 days now in preparation for your league :-) I've got > my Ferrari fairly dialled in now, and can run consistent 1m50's, with a > best of 1m49.7 - so here's hoping for a good race next week! > >I decided that's the car I > >felt the most comfortable in. > I'm with you on this too - I'd been spending most of my GPL time doing > hotlaps in the Lotus but after driving the Ferrari and toying with the > Eagle I never want to go back. Hotlapping now means nothing as far as > I'm concerned - give me racing! I can't imagine what's going to happen

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> to my social life when I get my cable modem next year.... > Cheers! > -- > Graeme Nash > [link lost in import] > ICQ# 11257824

> I discovered that the Lotus helped me to SHATTER a few, but some > of my Coventry and Eagle times were very difficult to beat by more than a > couple of hundredths. But it was a hell of a lot of fun trying! Don't keep us in suspense - tell us on which tracks your Coventry and Eagle times still stand. Thanks, Paul

I highly advocate this approach to folks if you're finding it too hard. I was significantly discouraged at first with my inability to "race" with any of the drivers. I used Allison Hines' notes on her web page to chage the NPT_* values to slow everyone down to my speed. I use the override, and use an npt of 1.25, and it's a blast. It's still a great challenge, and so much more fun to race close and have an outside chance at a top 5 finish if you keep any car on the track at reasonable speed for a 9 lapper. Also, if you plan to race online in the future, you need to get practice racing close w/other cars. This is the way to do that. As I get better (if I get better? :)), I lower the override value. Those Lotii ain't that fast now :). Have fun! -=Hammer remove x fer email reply

Hell, it takes me _that_ long to right myself after blowing turn-1! :) -Larry > I think the comments of some about difficulty come from the fact that some > of us suck. I suck. By best time at Kylami is 1:29 something

Yeah, this game is hard, but once you get the hang of it, it's ***ing!!! So far my best time at Watkins Glen is 1:11.95...I need to beat my brother's 1:11.51...... Kirk Lane

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>Hell, it takes me _that_ long to right myself after blowing turn-1! >:) >-Larry >> I think the comments of some about difficulty come from the fact that

some >> of us suck. I suck. By best time at Kylami is 1:29 something