GPL's Realism

Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2 or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model? Thomas

In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL adds the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car. Also, each tire is separately modeled in GPL, that's how you can lock up only one tire entering a turn. Ex. when the car is entering a left hand turn, the sim will calculate how much your turning the wheel, and then unload the left front and left rear while loading the right front and right rear, all using separate calculations based on the suspension settings for each corner of the car, how fast you are going, the temp of each tire etc., cool. Very busy game engine. Can't wait for Nascar 3, since I'm a stock car nut. After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars.

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>Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language >as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more >realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this >new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2 >or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model? >Thomas

well in nontechy techtalk n2 physics is based on a few items like speed, grip, input force, where gpl is using way more things like each tire modeled seperately, each suspension seperate, etc etc. For example in n2 the total tire traction for the whole car is computed where in gpl each tire is seperate and when you turn in a corner the traction available to each tire changes, you can imagine the difference. I think the total items modeled went from 6 to 15 or something like that. Each of these were updated 12 times a second in n2 and now 288 times a second in gpl. so in simple terms it is simple wayyy more complex.

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> Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language > as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more > realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this > new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2 > or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model? > Thomas

>In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL adds >the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car. Just to add to your 3d reactions i believe it also models pitch and roll or something like that (im not a flight sim guy) which adds some more degrees of 3d action. They say something like 6 degrees of movement. Each tire can go forward back left right but if you watch when you get light or airborn you see that it also "rolls" and same with the whole car, with the example of reving the motor at stand still, everything is modeled so you have more degrees or movement. I remember in CPR, you get airborn and the car physics dont know what to do, they just kinda throw you up and its like all gravity is lost, and same with rolls (i remember driving the pacecar around and then cutting it tight and the car would roll and then it would just go crazy) Well thats my .02 to add to Kenny's post. Wosco

John, Where'd you get the 12/288 figure? I'm trying to write up a review of sorts, so I need to be accurate. Is this stuff in the manual? Thomas

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> well in nontechy techtalk n2 physics is based on a few items like speed, > grip, input force, where gpl is using way more things like each tire > modeled seperately, each suspension seperate, etc etc. For example in n2 > the total tire traction for the whole car is computed where in gpl each > tire is seperate and when you turn in a corner the traction available to > each tire changes, you can imagine the difference. I think the total > items modeled went from 6 to 15 or something like that. Each of these > were updated 12 times a second in n2 and now 288 times a second in gpl. > so in simple terms it is simple wayyy more complex. > > Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language > > as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more > > realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this > > new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2 > > or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model? > > Thomas

Thanks for the reply, but I'm still a bit confused. What does it mean to "unload" and "load" the tires? Thomas. > In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL adds > the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car. Also, each > tire is separately modeled in GPL, that's how you can lock up only one tire > entering a turn. Ex. when the car is entering a left hand turn, the sim > will calculate how much your turning the wheel, and then unload the left > front and left rear while loading the right front and right rear, all using > separate calculations based on the suspension settings for each corner of

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> the car, how fast you are going, the temp of each tire etc., cool. Very > busy game engine. Can't wait for Nascar 3, since I'm a stock car nut. > After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars. > >Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language > >as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more > >realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this > >new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2 > >or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model? > >Thomas

>After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars. You ain't just whistling DIXIE, Dixie :) I've killed myself, other drivers, and even SPECTATORS so many times, I lost count. Although I'm doing BETTER, I still keep getting punted by that DAMN J. Rindt...I just about to DELETE him from the game... Eldred

> I've killed myself, other drivers, and even SPECTATORS so many times, I lost > count. Although I'm doing BETTER, I still keep getting punted by that DAMN J. > Rindt...I just about to DELETE him from the game... I told you that Jochen Rindt was a menace! (see previous thread - "GPL: Jochen Rindt is a menace"). Dave Ewing

Thomas, with all due respect, if you don't know what 'loading' or 'unloading' is with respect to tire and suspension dynamics, I'd suggest you pass on writing any reviews of a sim of GPL's caliber. Rgds, Mark R. On 25 Nov 1998 19:02:52 GMT, "Thomas Everett"

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>John, >Where'd you get the 12/288 figure? I'm trying to write up a review >of sorts, so I need to be accurate. Is this stuff in the manual? >Thomas >> well in nontechy techtalk n2 physics is based on a few items like speed, >> grip, input force, where gpl is using way more things like each tire >> modeled seperately, each suspension seperate, etc etc. For example in n2 >> the total tire traction for the whole car is computed where in gpl each >> tire is seperate and when you turn in a corner the traction available to >> each tire changes, you can imagine the difference. I think the total >> items modeled went from 6 to 15 or something like that. Each of these >> were updated 12 times a second in n2 and now 288 times a second in gpl. >> so in simple terms it is simple wayyy more complex. >> > Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language >> > as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more >> > realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this >> > new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2 >> > or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model? >> > Thomas

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>> I've killed myself, other drivers, and even SPECTATORS so many times, I >lost >> count. Although I'm doing BETTER, I still keep getting punted by that DAMN >J. >> Rindt...I just about to DELETE him from the game... >I told you that Jochen Rindt was a menace! (see previous thread - "GPL: >Jochen Rindt is a menace"). >Dave Ewing

<g> I remembered the thread, but I couldn't remember who STARTED it... :) Eldred ...Who finally WON a 6-lap race at Monza, with ten 'reversed-AI' opponents! Ok, so I would have finished 10th with a full field, but at this point, I don't CARE!<g> Woo-Hoo!!!

when you accelerate, brake, or turn left or right, the weight on each tire changes. For example, when you hit the brakes going into a turn, the weight of the car shifts to the front wheels, causing the front of the car to dip. when you hit the brakes and turn right, the weight transfers forward and to the left , loading the l/f tire and unloading the r/r tire. when you hit the gas, the weight transfers back to the rear tires thus loading the rear tires. you will see the actions and reactions in the front suspension. Viper Racing has this very cool camera view of just the front suspension, which illustrates this weight transferring effect oh so well. try this, find a long sweeping turn, and watch the tire temps change.

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>Thanks for the reply, but I'm still a bit confused. What does it mean to >"unload" and "load" the tires? >Thomas. >> In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL >adds >> the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car. Also, >each >> tire is separately modeled in GPL, that's how you can lock up only one >tire >> entering a turn. Ex. when the car is entering a left hand turn, the sim >> will calculate how much your turning the wheel, and then unload the left >> front and left rear while loading the right front and right rear, all >using >> separate calculations based on the suspension settings for each corner >of >> the car, how fast you are going, the temp of each tire etc., cool. Very >> busy game engine. Can't wait for Nascar 3, since I'm a stock car nut. >> After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars. >> >Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language >> >as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more >> >realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this >> >new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2 >> >or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model? >> >Thomas

How did you reverse the AI opponents? I'm tired of getting my ass kicked all over the place by Clark? Russ

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>How did you reverse the AI opponents? I'm tired of getting my ass kicked >all over the place by Clark? >Russ >>...Who finally WON a 6-lap race at Monza, with ten 'reversed-AI' opponents! >>Ok, so I would have finished 10th with a full field, but at this point, I >don't >>CARE!<g> Woo-Hoo!!!

Edit the file in the GPL directory called DRIVER.INI The drivers are listed from 1 to 19. Just renumber them. In other words, Clark is normally number 1. Just change his number to 19, change the next to 18, etc. When you run a race, you're now selecting the SLOWEST drivers first. As you get better, you can select more drivers, who will be progressively faster. I don't remember who originally gave this tip, so I can't give proper credit, sorry. Eldred p.s. BTW, I just ran a full distance, full damage race yesterday. Won by 17 seconds...YESSSS!<g>

Don't Rub it in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Laughlin >>How did you reverse the AI opponents? I'm tired of getting my ass kicked >>all over the place by Clark? >>Russ >>>...Who finally WON a 6-lap race at Monza, with ten 'reversed-AI' opponents!

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>>>Ok, so I would have finished 10th with a full field, but at this point, I >>don't >>>CARE!<g> Woo-Hoo!!! >Edit the file in the GPL directory called DRIVER.INI >The drivers are listed from 1 to 19. Just renumber them. In other words, >Clark is normally number 1. Just change his number to 19, change the next

to >18, etc. When you run a race, you're now selecting the SLOWEST drivers first. >As you get better, you can select more drivers, who will be progressively >faster. I don't remember who originally gave this tip, so I can't give proper >credit, sorry. >Eldred >p.s. BTW, I just ran a full distance, full damage race yesterday. Won by 17 >seconds...YESSSS!<g>

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>Don't Rub it in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>Eldred >>p.s. BTW, I just ran a full distance, full damage race yesterday. Won by >17 >>seconds...YESSSS!<g>

<g> Would it make you feel better if I told you I almost put it in the fence on lap 60? I *hate* the Lesmos corner(s) :( Eldred

Not really, I can't get through 10 laps yet without eating a fence.

>Not really, I can't get through 10 laps yet without eating a fence. >>Would it make you feel better if I told you I almost put it in the fence on >lap >>60? I *hate* the Lesmos corner(s) :( >>Eldred Oh! Well, that's different.... Nevermind. - Emily Litella Eldred

>p.s. BTW, I just ran a full distance, full damage race yesterday. Won by >17 seconds...YESSSS!<g> A full race.. Wow, and full damage too. Geez it CAN be done!! <g>. I don't care if the A/I cars had a top-end of 55mph, congratulations!! Matt -Teehole Quote: "Many games create the ultimate technological experience, but falter when it comes to creating a compelling story to keep gamers interested".<< Author:Tim Royal,Computer Games Strategy Plus.

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>>p.s. BTW, I just ran a full distance, full damage race yesterday. Won by >>17 seconds...YESSSS!<g> > A full race.. Wow, and full damage too. Geez it CAN be done!! <g>. > I don't care if the A/I cars had a top-end of 55mph, >congratulations!! > Matt

LOL! <elvis voice on> Thank you, thank you very much... <elvis voice OFF> Eldred

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>>Thomas, with all due respect, if you don't know what 'loading' or >>'unloading' is with respect to tire and suspension dynamics, I'd >>suggest you pass on writing any reviews of a sim of GPL's >>caliber. >I think that *any* review is valid as long as a person puts it into context by >stating their point of view. Are you a gamer or an automotive engineer? For >example. >glen

I'm not announcing to the world that I am planning on writing a review, so my qualifications are inconsequential. I was merely offering Thomas my opinion on his endeavor. People will make no buying decisions based on my particular post quoted above. People do make buying decisions based on reviews. $30 or $40 does not come easy to many. Your concept of stating the perspective and qualifications of the reviewer is a noble one, but rarely followed in the real world. Bogus magazine reviews abound, as any serious simmer can attest to. Ergo, IMHO reviews are best left to 'highly experienced' gamers and/or professionals in the simulation's field. FYI, I'm neither, but I've been around. And I _do_ know what loading/unloading is <g>. Rgds, Mark R.