GPL - Cheating online

Hi all, Last night I used VROC to connect to an online race at Monza. When I got there I saw that the second placed guy in qualifying had got a 1m28.2 and the poleman had got a 1m27.2..... Quick times I thought. I watched their lap replays and both guys were not braking for Lesmo 1, and just using the barrier to guide them through the corner at much higher speed. I disconnected. Then just now I did another race at Monza, and the winner used exactly the same method to beat Wolfgang Woeger, of all people, into second place. I finished third BTW. If people are going to be using these tactics it detracts from the spirit of online racing! Thank God for the other 10 tracks:) Cheers! -- Graeme Nash You know what to do with "don't_spam_me"... http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk/ ICQ# 11257824 "My car appeared to disagree with my preference for living"

The solution is to run Pro or Gran Prix races instead of that ***- novice-milk-toast-pasty-faced-racer-wannabe crap. They won't survive more than a lap or too smacking the armco that way. "I don't crash. My car is so ugly that the track simply rejects it." -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Doesn't having the damage level at "Advanced" take this ploy away by damaging your car while you're against the rail? -- Doug Gordon (remove "nospam" from e-mail address) >Hi all, >Last night I used VROC to connect to an online race at Monza. When I got >there I saw that the second placed guy in qualifying had got a 1m28.2 >and the poleman had got a 1m27.2..... Quick times I thought. I watched >their lap replays and both guys were not braking for Lesmo 1, and just >using the barrier to guide them through the corner at much higher speed.

Hi Graeme I think when you play in novice mode everything is possible. The Lesmo 1 is one of theses possibility. The real cheating is when a guy whith a very fast connection, PII 450, 1000$ wheel, compete against poor guy with TM gp1 and a slow connection. Dont forget is just a game. Ciao Jacques

> The real cheating is when a guy whith a very fast > connection, PII 450, 1000$ wheel, compete against poor guy with TM gp1 and a > slow connection. Dont forget is just a game. Are you implying that someone who owns a fast PC and good equipment to go with it is somehow a cheater? If so, you're full of crap. Trips

No, of course, but that's my answer to 'cheating on line' submitted by Graeme. BTW I hear Papy prepare a new patch for GPL to include just before novice a new section named POOR GUY. Jacques

Just join races with damage on ie intermediate or preferably Pro! Ben

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>Hi all, >Last night I used VROC to connect to an online race at Monza. When I got >there I saw that the second placed guy in qualifying had got a 1m28.2 >and the poleman had got a 1m27.2..... Quick times I thought. I watched >their lap replays and both guys were not braking for Lesmo 1, and just >using the barrier to guide them through the corner at much higher speed. >I disconnected. >Then just now I did another race at Monza, and the winner used exactly >the same method to beat Wolfgang Woeger, of all people, into second >place. I finished third BTW. >If people are going to be using these tactics it detracts from the >spirit of online racing! Thank God for the other 10 tracks:) >Cheers! >-- >Graeme Nash >You know what to do with "don't_spam_me"... >http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk/ >ICQ# 11257824 >"My car appeared to disagree with my preference for living"

>> The real cheating is when a guy whith a very fast >> connection, PII 450, 1000$ wheel, compete against poor guy with TM gp1 and a >> slow connection. Dont forget is just a game. >Are you implying that someone who owns a fast PC and good equipment to >go with it is somehow a cheater? If so, you're full of crap. >Trips Hey an online handicap...a formula taking into account processor speed, controller type and brand..cool, man, I can gaet an advantage from using my trusty joystick...and so can W Woeger. Great. Ben

On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:58:42 -0500, "jacques gutkin" >I think when you play in novice mode everything is possible. The Lesmo 1 is >one of theses possibility. The real cheating is when a guy whith a very fast >connection, PII 450, 1000$ wheel, compete against poor guy with TM gp1 and a >slow connection. Ah, this old herring rouge. Quake modem guys used to whine endlessly about being beaten by "LPB"s - one way to deny the possibility that they were just crap. He has a faster PC/connection/video card/mouse config/whatever - it couldn't possibly be because he was better, no siree. On the plus side it was immensely satisfying for LPBs to meet them again when using a modem and spank them then as well :-) If you're losing in GPL it's probably because you need more practice, plain and simple. If you run novice races and people run around the barriers, don't run novice races. I hestitate to even class that as cheating since you are going as fast as the car and track will allow - that's motorsport. Cheers! John

This is the same unwinnable discussion that has plagued most other online games before GPL, such as Quake1/2 where people with faster connections are called LPB's (Low Ping Bastards) by people with slower connection, and even at first people playing using voodoo equipped computers were also accused of cheating by those not fortunate enough to own one. Having better connection or equipment is *not* cheating, it is just a difference of circumstances. If GPL is important enough to you then you do things like upgrade your computer or even for people like me where online *** is also very important, you can consider faster Internet connection methods like ISDN, ADSL, Cable modem etc. Also I get beat in online GPL regularly by an extremely fast good racer on a 56k modem connection dialed in from New Zealand on a Pentium233MMX (if I recall correctly, it's definitely a Pentium1, hi Grant Reeve) and not just me but he beats many other fast drivers. Hardware and connection inequalities are definitely overcomeable, I think if you use them as a crutch you end up selling your abilities short. There is nothing wrong with using lesser hardware as a valid concern but if you think that people with better hardware than you are cheating, then you might as well go back to racing the AI, because there will never be online play where everyone has exactly the SAME hardware and connection, everyone will always have some difference which you will mistakenly consider cheating. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva >Hi Graeme >I think when you play in novice mode everything is possible. The Lesmo 1 is >one of theses possibility. The real cheating is when a guy whith a very fast >connection, PII 450, 1000$ wheel, compete against poor guy with TM gp1 and a >slow connection. Dont forget is just a game.

Well, I have a P200MMX connecting with a rather dodgy 33.6 modem! So I don't think I'm being as unfair as using bariers to record 1m27.2's at Monza! Although yes, it is just a game. But when online races are SOOOOOOO expensive for us in the UK it's kind of a shame being disadvantaged from the start. But that's enough of me whining:)! I've got some racing to do at Zandvoort! Cheers! -- Graeme Nash You know what to do with "don't_spam_me"... http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk/ ICQ# 11257824 "Oh, LEFT hander...."

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>Hi all, >Last night I used VROC to connect to an online race at Monza. When I got >there I saw that the second placed guy in qualifying had got a 1m28.2 >and the poleman had got a 1m27.2..... Quick times I thought. I watched >their lap replays and both guys were not braking for Lesmo 1, and just >using the barrier to guide them through the corner at much higher speed. >I disconnected.

That's really sad. Fortunately I like the "Pro"-races better, no Shift-R or shit like that. It's much more enjoyable to play and everybody's taking it a little bit more easy and not thrashing it in the first corner or even before that. :)

> The real cheating is when a guy whith a very fast >connection, PII 450, 1000$ wheel, compete against poor guy with TM gp1 and a >slow connection. Oh, please, that's utter rubbish. It's not the cost of the wheel that makes the difference, it's the driver, although I'm sure a slow connection makes it harder to get past when the guy in front who's going slower than you is warping from side to side on the road. I happen to own a fast computer and a CDS4000 (the wheel I think you're referring to here), and I am simply not good enough. The other guys might be using wheels that cost a fifth of the price, but they're still several seconds faster than I am. That simply isn't cheating, that's just you, or whomever the "poor guy" you refer to above is, being bitter about being slow, and blaming the hardware. <shakes head in sadness> Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

Come on Stuart, don't take to serious my comments about cheating on line. BTW don't stop practice, GPL is fantastic online Cheer, Jacques >> The real cheating is when a guy whith a very fast >>connection, PII 450, 1000$ wheel, compete against poor guy with TM gp1 and a

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>>slow connection. >Oh, please, that's utter rubbish. >It's not the cost of the wheel that makes the difference, it's the >driver, although I'm sure a slow connection makes it harder to get >past when the guy in front who's going slower than you is warping from >side to side on the road. >I happen to own a fast computer and a CDS4000 (the wheel I think >you're referring to here), and I am simply not good enough. The other >guys might be using wheels that cost a fifth of the price, but they're >still several seconds faster than I am. >That simply isn't cheating, that's just you, or whomever the "poor >guy" you refer to above is, being bitter about being slow, and blaming >the hardware. ><shakes head in sadness> >Stuart >-- >Stuart Booth >Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK >Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

The Pro races certainly penalizes this kind of behaviour. But with the vagaries of the Internet, not having shift-R can be pretty sucky. If you've seen the green flag go down and only half the grid is on the track, or cars warping left and right in front of you (you gotta trust The Force to pass), then you know that shift-R is kind of necessary for online at the moment. I find it better to go to the Intermediate races - especially long ones. The folks who pull hot laps all too often aren't the ones who win. At Monza, the Int races are either 11 or 21 laps - that's 2 to 3 times as many chances for the cheaters to***up. Or for engines to blow up. And it is not uncommon for someone in the back or middle of the pack in an "uncompetetive" car (BRM or Cov) to get on the podium in the longer races. And that's simply by driving consistently without spinning out or hitting anything. At Monza I usually end up in the 2nd to 4th row (depending on race size and Lotus density). So the drill is pretty much as follows: - Accelerate away at the green, but don't fishtail - a quick get away is to avoid the wreck forming behind you. - Pick your way through the wreck down the front straight. - Gently dance around the wreck on Curva Grande. - Slow wayyyy down for the Lesmos to avoid the wreck there. - Blast up through Ascari and take it easy into Parabolica the first time ... observe the nice fresh skidmarks heading right into the sand from someone in front of you. Or who was in front of you. - As you exit Parabolica, you should be anywhere from 3rd to 5th. Now you can begin to race. -MSM

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>>Hi all, >>Last night I used VROC to connect to an online race at Monza. When I got >>there I saw that the second placed guy in qualifying had got a 1m28.2 >>and the poleman had got a 1m27.2..... Quick times I thought. I watched >>their lap replays and both guys were not braking for Lesmo 1, and just >>using the barrier to guide them through the corner at much higher speed. >>I disconnected. >That's really sad. Fortunately I like the "Pro"-races better, no Shift-R or >shit like that. It's much more enjoyable to play and everybody's taking it

a >little bit more easy and not thrashing it in the first corner or even before >that. :)

On 23 Nov 1998 09:28:51 PST, "Mark S. Miller" snip Sage racing advice! VERY good Mark... 8-) G. Patricks

<...> Maybe some people were using it as an excuse, sure, but in Q2, there definitely was an advantage to a low ping. Put simply, with a low ping, by the time you see the lpb, he's already seen you (and fired). There is no way around it; having played both sides, there simply is a big advantage to low ping. But in GPL, I don't see the problem. It is simply more of a nuisance to have low ping, because of warping and instability for the other drivers. Good points.

>Maybe some people were using it as an excuse, sure, but in Q2, there >definitely was an advantage to a low ping. Put simply, with a low >ping, by the time you see the lpb, he's already seen you (and fired). >There is no way around it; having played both sides, there simply is a >big advantage to low ping. Having also played both sides I disagree. Playing as an LPB you may "see" the modem-player first, but you will fire at where the prediction algorithm believes him to be - not at where he is. Skilled modem players can and do use this to their advantage, and if you ever played someone like Bobby2 or Pants-McNailz you would see that being on a modem can be turned to an advantage. It is of course easier just to complain about it! In GPL you personally do not suffer from a poor latency since you race on your own system. The only way you will suffer is in the way your latency interacts with someone else - i.e. they go for a gap that you are already in, but they don't know it because of the warp. In that case you both suffer. Low ping is a barrier to good racing, not fast laptimes. Several times I've been frightened to pass someone because they're warping so badly the risk is too much, and I've seen others nervous about passing me for the same reason. Cheers! John

also played both sides I disagree. Playing as an LPB you may Hi John, Well I never complain about LPB's in fact it is just a game. But I find it hard to grasp what your saying here as I have played Q2 for quite sometime now and find low ping to be advantage. But rather than mere speculation or talk of algorithm's? :-) Perhaps you will just show me this? I will host a game you will join standard death match no grappling etc. Just standard deathmatch or rocket arena. Im sure your ping will be high mine will be low. You use your prediction skills I will use my low ping. What do you say? :-) 2 out of 3? or.................? Cya, Mike

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>>Maybe some people were using it as an excuse, sure, but in Q2, there >>definitely was an advantage to a low ping. Put simply, with a low >>ping, by the time you see the lpb, he's already seen you (and fired). >>There is no way around it; having played both sides, there simply is a >>big advantage to low ping. >Having also played both sides I disagree. Playing as an LPB you may >"see" the modem-player first, but you will fire at where the >prediction algorithm believes him to be - not at where he is.

<...> We simply disagree. I don't think I've actually ever complained about it online. Mostly what I complained about was the tendency of people playing CTF to join whichever side was winning. Only about one out of 10 games was ever very well balanced. I guess there were mods that avoided this... but just finding CTF servers with low enough ping was usually a struggle. Anyway, I don't play Q2 anymore since GPL online came along... <...> This is always the case, even with people with fairly low latencies I think. Online racing is more about who is consistent than who is the craftier dicer. I never try a pass unless it is a straight-away, or if I know that I can outbrake someone at the end of a straightaway without moving in on their line too quickly. And I basically don't block, particularly if the other guy has demonstrated such respect. I just take the best line, and if he can pass me with the second best line, then more power to him. There is no doubt, though, that you can wreak havoc with a guy's driving psychologically, by just being very close behind him (but not touching him)- and that is a large part of online GPL IMO. The absolute worst thing about online racing (besides professional starts with people who didn't just spend the last 40 minutes qualifying!) is to be racing someone hard when they dissappear for a second or two. Invariably, you have to let off the gas, because in a number of occasions the reappear in my space or in some other equally disastrous place. And this certainly has a lot or everything to do with latency.

In the days when I used to play Quake a lot I'd have been glad to, but these days I play once in a blue moon (and I use ISDN these days anyway). You can still have a demonstration though - just search Gamespy for Pants_McNailz and join the same game... Hosting a game goes even beyond LPB - sort of a NPB :-) Cheers! John

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>This is always the case, even with people with fairly low latencies I >think. Online racing is more about who is consistent than who is the >craftier dicer. I never try a pass unless it is a straight-away, or if >I know that I can outbrake someone at the end of a straightaway >without moving in on their line too quickly. And I basically don't >block, particularly if the other guy has demonstrated such respect. I >just take the best line, and if he can pass me with the second best >line, then more power to him. There is no doubt, though, that you can >wreak havoc with a guy's driving psychologically, by just being very >close behind him (but not touching him)- and that is a large part of >online GPL IMO.

Well, again we differ. I will try a pass anywhere that it's safe, and while I don't condone "weaving" to keep someone behind I will definitely "block", if by that you mean take an inside line to a turn, delay my acceleration to stop you drafting, jink left and right to break you out of the draft or whatever. That's racing. Why lift? If you lift they're gone, if you don't you're still in with a shout. I'd just keep my foot in and hope for the best - either way you might hit them (and the guy behind will get a big fright when you lift on him on a straight!). Cheers! John

Great, today I start to train. With my system and location I have the best chances. P200 no MMX voodoo I Joystick Living in Malaysia ;-) See you Jens BTW: I'm not the fastest, but the funniest on the track >Also I get beat in online GPL regularly by an extremely fast good racer >on a 56k modem connection dialed in from New Zealand on a Pentium233MMX >(if I recall correctly, it's definitely a Pentium1, hi Grant Reeve) --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

>The key thing people seem to forget on that first lap is that cold >tires and heavy fuel mean you really don't know where to brake. On >that lap I worry far more about the guy behind me, thinking he can >make his usualy brake markers, taking me out that the fellow in front. Another thing to remember is that network delays affect everyone's perception of what's going on. Here's what I mean: I was in a race at Monza a couple of nites ago. I accelerated from the start clean down the right side from somewhere mid-pack. Started drifting left a little under power, lifted and went back to the edge. Next thing I know, some Coventry I'd passed a second before slams into my left rear, shearing off the tire. Then the driver of said Coventry starts calling me names, and implying that I deliberately took him out (why I'd need to do that when I was already blowing past him down the straight is a question that don't need answering). Upon review of the film, it was clear that I never touched him - not even close. But watching his car showed what appeared to be something striking him from the *direction* I had been coming from. That is, it looked like his front end interpolated my motion prior to correcting my drift and decided that I would strike him a half second later, and then produced a collision on his front end. Probably on his front end, it looked like I deliberately swerved into him. So if someone says they didn't try to take you out, it's probably best to give them the benefit of the doubt. If when asked about a questionable collision, they come back with a reply of "that's racing" or "tough crap", then I guess it's open season. And for that first half lap, it's especially important to take it easy since cars are in such close proximity. -MSM

On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:48:37 +0200, "Greger Huttu"

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>>Hi all, >>Last night I used VROC to connect to an online race at Monza. When I got >>there I saw that the second placed guy in qualifying had got a 1m28.2 >>and the poleman had got a 1m27.2..... Quick times I thought. I watched >>their lap replays and both guys were not braking for Lesmo 1, and just >>using the barrier to guide them through the corner at much higher speed. >>I disconnected. >That's really sad.

The only real problem with it is that GPL doesn't DQ or BF people for doing it, like it would for taking an shortcut. Otherwise... I hate to say it, but it is (unfortunately) fair game. I certainly have no interest in such an arcade stunt. I love pro races... except for the first lap. When you've qualified for 25 or 40 minutes and then immediately get hit by some person who probably didn't even do one practice lap, doesn't know there is no shift-R, and feels that a race is won or lost in the first 10 seconds... you aren't too happy. But I won a pro race last night, and it was a lot more satisfying than the intermediate one I won at the same track just before it.

On 23 Nov 1998 09:28:51 PST, "Mark S. Miller" >If you've >seen the green flag go down and only half the grid is on the track, or cars >warping left and right in front of you (you gotta trust The Force to pass), >then you know that shift-R is kind of necessary for online at the moment. Yes, for that infamous "online moment." I thought these are quite apt, if hilarious- thanks for the observations: The key thing people seem to forget on that first lap is that cold tires and heavy fuel mean you really don't know where to brake. On that lap I worry far more about the guy behind me, thinking he can make his usualy brake markers, taking me out that the fellow in front.

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>>>Last night I used VROC to connect to an online race at Monza. When I got >>>there I saw that the second placed guy in qualifying had got a 1m28.2 >>>and the poleman had got a 1m27.2..... Quick times I thought. I watched >>>their lap replays and both guys were not braking for Lesmo 1, and just >>>using the barrier to guide them through the corner at much higher speed. >>>I disconnected. >>That's really sad. >The only real problem with it is that GPL doesn't DQ or BF people for >doing it, like it would for taking an shortcut. Otherwise... I hate to >say it, but it is (unfortunately) fair game. I certainly have no >interest in such an arcade stunt.

This problem would be easy to remedy on Papy's side: If the guardrails in Monza had a little bump or two, nobody would be tempted to use them as "cornering aids". On the Nuerburgring, there is this scary lefthander following the long straightaway (I disremember the names again...) In this turn, there is a tiny little shrub on the outside that inevitably will send you spinning if you hit it, making "cheating" here impossible. I wished there were more of these items to keep us honest. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.