ACT Labs force RS arrived today, initial impressions

(clip) IMO, it's as good as any TM wheel I've tried. Unless you want to spring for a TSW or ECCI, PC wheels don't get much better. I think it's pretty good. Without a doubt, the best FF effects I've seen are in a game called Motorhead. It really pulls you into the game. The Viper demo leaves out some effects, but is does something that nothing else (as far as I know) does - model oversteer/ understeer. It does take a while to get used to, and to figure out what it's telling you. Give it some more time and you'll be a bit more impressed. Try turning the wheel in your real car to the side, and see how close it comes to re-centering. I understand the point you are making, but it's really more realistic than if it perfectly re-centered. Also, try using the wheel for another week or two, as the belt system tends to smooth out after some use. BTW, you can adjust the ramping of the spring forces so that it is more progressive from center to the stops. I'm guessing you have the bottom slider in the joystick properties set to 100%. (clip) (clip) I wish they would seperate the pedal axes. The pedals already have separate pots and wiring, and apparently, seperate axes should be possible with just a new driver release. With enough demand, maybe it will happen. -- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not a full time driving sim kind of guy. I don't like > all the real estate it takes up at my computer desk. I have my T2 wheel attached to a TV tray. When I'm surfing, I just move the TV tray to the side. Of course, it stands in front of my monitor 95% of the time, 'cause you only need to surf to get the lastest patches :) I know a regular (non-FF) wheel has enhanced my enjoyment of all racing sims. -- -------- Jason Monds (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

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> >Give it some more > >time and you'll be a bit more impressed. > Too late, I already shipped it back. I just kept thinking to myself "Two > hundred bucks? I paid two hundred bucks for this?", that's canadian $. I > think that I'm getting too carried away too fast. What I need is a good > digital joystick, I'm not a full time driving sim kind of guy. I don't like > all the real estate it takes up at my computer desk. And frankly I feel a bit > silly with all of this equipment to play a computer game. > I'll go shopping for a stick tomorrow.

Hmm, that's like a guy complaining about using the mouse in Quake2, and then realizing that he actually doesn't like playing Quake at all... ;^) l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> Also, the brake and throttle for this system are on the same axis. Which means > that fully depressing both, for example, is the same as doing nothing. I was > hoping to be able to have one foot on the brake, clutch in, and rev the engine > at the start of the race. Can't do that. Throttle is Y up, brake is Y down, > if you work both, you get the average. Maybe all racing systems are like this, > I don't know. Not all systems are like this. This is exactly the feeling I had about them. They do "jump" in the beginning, and then the resistance becomes so much smaller you unintentionally floor it. Might improve with more driving, though (getting used to it and also more seldom letting go of the pedal completely). TM's T2, Mad Catz and all the Mad Catz lookalikes seem to have about the same reasonable pedals. TM's wheel is the best I've tried, then comes Act Labs(talking just about the wheel here, not pedals) then the springy sucky Mad Catz and the other crap. Don't quite know where to put FF wheels yet, only tried Saitek in NFS3, felt pretty good. I fortunately got to test this at a store. Right now I'm looking for a good non-FF wheel with no pots and an USB connection. TM's upcoming digital wheel might be the answer. I was hoping to buy quality cheap (Act Labs), but alas, that was not to happen. -- Anssi Lehtinen

ROTFL. Better not suggest a Hyperstimulator then, especially not a fully body kitted Ferrari type one anyway!

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> >Give it some more > >time and you'll be a bit more impressed. > Too late, I already shipped it back. I just kept thinking to myself "Two > hundred bucks? I paid two hundred bucks for this?", that's canadian $. I > think that I'm getting too carried away too fast. What I need is a good > digital joystick, I'm not a full time driving sim kind of guy. I don't like > all the real estate it takes up at my computer desk. And frankly I feel a bit > silly with all of this equipment to play a computer game. > I'll go shopping for a stick tomorrow. > glen

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

I agree with everything Glen wrote about the Force RS. I have both the MS FF and ACTLAB Force RS (the latter not for very much longer). Prior to these, I was using a Thrustmaster GP1. My impressions, after many hours with both (primarily using GPL and a bit of F1RS). MS - very nice easy to use mount (solid and easy to remove), small foot print, smooth pedals, pedal base is a bit light (sometimes it moves) - well placed buttons (not paddles) for shifting behind the wheel - smooth response (no pots, I can set the DINPUT.DLL null zone to 0 without problem) - wheel has slight looseness dead center (not bad, but not as smooth as a bungie sprung wheel) - reasonable force feedback effects (on F1RS, NFS3, TOCA) - works with DOS games (GP2, Nascar2) - separate axis for brake and gas pedals - needs to connect to joystick/midi port on sound card ACTLAB - nice heavy base for pedals, however, there's a lot of friction making it very difficult to modulate - for non-FF games, self centering spring force doesn't work in some games!!! (including GPL) - as a result, must overcome significant motor friction to unwind the wheel (more friction than MS wheel) - single axis for brake and gas (pressing both pedals is the same as not pressing either) - nice simulated leather wheel, flimsy, poorly placed shifter paddle (paddle is at 9 and 3 o'clock, while wheel spokes are at 10 and 2, making it difficult shift and press spoke buttons from one hand position on wheel) - very strong and smooth force feedback effects (better that MS wheel) - takes a lot of deskspace and clamps are not as easy to use as MS wheel - doesn't work with DOS games - connects to serial port Overall, I found the MS wheel much better - eager to see a comparison with the upcoming Thrustmaster and Logitech force wheels. Areas where they might be better than the MS wheel are: smoothness in non-FF games (MS is reasonably smooth), and better FF effects, USB port support, heavier pedal base. Norm >>Hmm, that's like a guy complaining about using the mouse in Quake2, and >>then >>realizing that he actually doesn't like playing Quake at all... ;^) >I still love GPL, I just wasn't impressed with the controller. I found that I >had a lot better control, especially throttle/brake, using the joystick. I'm >using an MS precision pro now and my lap times are coming down. >I still stand by what I said. Somewhat sticky pedals. FF mechanism gets in >the way of smooth control. That's what I found. It also takes up a lot more >space than my joystick. >glen

>I agree with everything Glen wrote about the Force RS. I'm glad I canceled my order then :-) After I canceled my ForceRS order, I called both Logitech and TM to ask about their FF wheels. Logitech told me that their wheel was shipping within the next 2 weeks, while TM would give no date. Apparently the TM wheel has packaging problems. Both wheels claim DOS support (I asked reps at both companies. Um then again I asked Actlabs too) and both wheels use the Serial port I believe. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

% After I canceled my ForceRS order, I called both Logitech and TM to ask % about their FF wheels. Logitech told me that their wheel was shipping % within the next 2 weeks, while TM would give no date. Apparently the % TM wheel has packaging problems. Both wheels claim DOS support % (I asked reps at both companies. Um then again I asked Actlabs too) % and both wheels use the Serial port I believe. I understand (it is unofficial) that TM should have some units in BestBuy and CompUSA around Thanksgiving. Also the TM should offer both serial or USB. Suggested retail is $179.95, available outside North America as Formula Force GT (Bernie was asking too much for the #1). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>I understand (it is unofficial) that TM should have some units in >BestBuy and CompUSA around Thanksgiving. Also the TM should offer >both serial or USB. Suggested retail is $179.95, available outside >North America as Formula Force GT (Bernie was asking too much for >the #1). Cool! I was ready to try the MS FF but I can wait til thanksgiving to check the TM wheel. Do you have any unofficial info on DOS support. Like N2 or ICR2 from a DOS (not reboot and not exiting to DOS) box within W98? Thanks -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>Greg, >At this rate, you'll be old and grey (presuming you are not this way now) by >the time you settle on the world's best wheel ;-) Actually I won't be waiting for that long. I'll give it til Xmas at the latest. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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>Path: >> I'm glad I canceled my order then :-) >oooooooooooooooh dear. >> >Overall, I found the MS wheel much better - eager to see a comparison with >Really ? Can you tell me why ? >I compared 6 wheels at the ECTS and I thought the Actlabs was WAAAAAAY >ahead of the rest, the feedback is a hell of a lot more powerful and >subtle too. The wheel is a lot sturdier and more comfy (its the only >one that doesnt feel plasticy - is that a word ??). >IMO the MS wheel was the second best and was way better than all the >rest (except for the Force RS obviously). And I thought the Logitech >wheel was easily the worst. >Anyone ? >Scotty

Wow, absolute opposite for me- here's something i did for Force-1 www.force-1.com at the time- Basically- i felt the Force RS wasn't right for me- poor flipper design, and it felt like the wheel in my car- not a race car. Likewise, the Logitech Wheel i felt was racing nirvana- superb piece of kit. As it happens, i managed to get my hands on a Saitek R4 FFB at a sweet deal at the Flight Sim Show at the weekend ;) and it's now sitting on my desk at home. However it lakcs programmable buttons at the moment- i've been told that the software shoudl be ready for that function soon- great- i want a change down 5 gears button--- i keep changing down into neutral by mistake 8) Z. Well, ECTS is over now, and in between my many meetings I had a chance to stroll around and sample a few of what the Controller Community has too offer. Microsoft "Tilt" Controller Both Intel and Microsoft had these on their stands. If you are familiar with a Gamepad, well that's exactly what it is. Hooked up to ***'s new Superbike racing game (which is stunning, and supports Force Feedback in it's own right), it was pure dynamite. I'm not sure if it is on my shopping list yet- it felt a little imprecise in this game- I feel it's possibly more suited to Arcade games, than a sim. Microsoft Force Feedback Wheel Microsoft had these babies hooked up to MTM2, and Cart PR- the helpful Microserf provided the information that the wheel which ship with new builds of Cart and MTM2 with improved Force Feedback, although he was not sure if the versions being demo'ed where these or not. In any case, the Force Feedback was not apparent, and found wanting. The wheel design is solid and feels good, but with Midi port required (USB "Next year sometime") it's off my shopping list straight away as I already have a Force Feedback Pro. Nice wheel though, if the pedals feel a little imprecise. ACT Labs Force RS I'd pre-ordered one of these, impressed by the Cartridge system (as I also have a PSX). The wheel is beautiful finished, solid and has a leatherish feel. It wouldn't look out of place in your own car. The Force feedback in MTM2 being demo'ed was certainly more impressive that Microsoft's own offering, but I'm afraid I came away with the feeling that the RS is a perfect wheel for all the NFS2, Test Drive and the like games out there. If like me, however you spend your time more in Front of F1RS, or more sim/racing orientated games, this wheel is out of place- not to say that it is out of depth, but it just plain out of place. The real weak point is the hopeless effort at flippers behind the wheel. God knows how you are supposed to hit those every time. It's nice, and I might get an RS for my Playstation, but the Force RS is off my PC Shopping List. Saitek S4 Force Feedback Hooked up to a Beta of Colin McRae's Rally, this wheel is quite nice- great pedals, and the wheel is well equipped with both flippers and a right hand side mounted gear stick. Only two buttons are on the wheel itself, any this might become a factor dependent on what game you are playing. Steering Lock feels a bit longer than some wheels, but the wheel feels authentic, and it is a fine racing wheel- Top 2 for the show. Destiny Force Feedback Hooked up to Sega Rally (PC) you do have to from the outset wonder about the choice of game for demo. It's not a bad wheel per se.... just that the look is distinctly Mad Katz, and looks well out of place against all the racing wheels. Maybe a bit too similar to the Rumble Force PSX wheel for it's own good. Thrustmaster NASCAR/F1 Force GT Despite the on wheel stickering as the NASCAR Force GT, (Nascar? we do turn right on our race tracks over here), this wheel will be shipped to Europe as the F1 Force Gt. It's basically the Current NASCAR/F1 Wheel with a few tricks under the plastic covers. Like the Saitek, it comes with both flippers and a stick. That is to say there might be a few tricks under there, but they certainly were not coming out to play. Sunday had the wheel kind of juddering a bit under Cart PR Steam, but come Monday morning, Jason Sampson (UK Product Manager) & cronies were beating their PC's in frustration. On Tuesday, the Monitor and PC seemed to remain switched off all day. Logitech Force Feedback Wheel Nirvana. No other answer. Great wheel, not quite so great pedals, but great wheel. Did I mention the wheel is great? Hooked up on Logitech's stand to F1RS, and on Ubisoft's stand to F1RS2/Monaco GP Sim, it is pure heaven. Nice feedback, wonderfully precise input, and got myself a free Joystick (alas not the Force Feedback Model) for beating 1:31 at Silverstone in F1RS. (My Flatmate got the 3rd best time of the day, but that's another story). I have no hesitation in selling a lung to buy this wheel. It's looks, and feels great. It's precise, nice number of buttons, and great position of the flippers. All it lacks is the gear shifter (which in moments of TOCA Passion I prefer to use), but it's simply at the top of my list. Additionally, while the TM has slipped ;) a loooooong way, the Logitech wheel is out this friday, and the R4 was out last friday. Z.

>And I thought the Logitech >wheel was easily the worst. To quote you. "Really ? Can you tell me why ?" -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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>> Logitech Force Feedback Wheel >> Nirvana. No other answer. Great wheel, >BOOOO HISSSSSSS ! *grin* >Horrid Red colour !!! Looks about as authentic as holding a dinner >plate ! *laugh*

You are being serious? or have you never looked in a single seater***pit? :) I give the big thumbs down on the RS to the wheel for being too damn thick- it's not racing wheel- i feel like i need fluffy dice to hang on my monitor if i owned one. The Logitech is damn close to the real thing, and the comfort level and familarity of the deisgn is flawless. Z.

Most (notice the word "most") programs that will run in a Windows DOS box should be able to access the Thrustmaster Force Feeback wheel. I hope to get a list of games that will not work with the TM FF wheel inside a DOS box. When I do get it I will post it here. There does not appear to be any native/pure DOS support. % >I understand (it is unofficial) that TM should have some units in % >BestBuy and CompUSA around Thanksgiving. Also the TM should offer % >both serial or USB. Suggested retail is $179.95, available outside % >North America as Formula Force GT (Bernie was asking too much for % >the #1). % Cool! I was ready to try the MS FF but I can wait til thanksgiving to check % the TM wheel. Do you have any unofficial info on DOS support. Like N2 % or ICR2 from a DOS (not reboot and not exiting to DOS) box within W98? % Thanks % -- % Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. % cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

GP2, Yes. Nascar2, NO. -Larry > - works with DOS games (GP2, Nascar2)