On-Line Question for GPL

I have just raced for the 1st time on the 'net'. However, the opponents cars disappear, even when close, and then reappear again. Do I need to turn down the res or detail level? I have a PII 450 with 256 Ram, and a 56k connection, playing at 1024x768 (2xMonster 3dfx II cards) Thanks

Paul Jager wrote This is called warping. It's mostly because of quality connections and also the unstable Internet ;) . Normally, you should try to always achieve 36fps all the time when racing online in GPL. I will now send you to Alison's GPL webpage (she was a beta tester for it). There is full of FAQ and there is a great section called "Online" where I think you will find all the answers you want ;) The URL is : http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison/gpl/ - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

ymenard, why don't you tell him the truth? The warping on a machine like his should be minimal. Other games it would be, with GPL, it's a different story. David G Fisher >Paul Jager wrote >>I have just raced for the 1st time on the 'net'. However, >>the opponents cars disappear, even when close, and then >>reappear again. >This is called warping. It's mostly because of quality connections and also >the unstable Internet ;) .

The truth is that unless you know the quality of his connection and those he was racing with there's no way to tell... - Eric

The truth is that people are constantly talking about these problems. It's been going on for weeks now. I'm willing to bet a real Ferrari that if I gave the original poster a few other sims (or other games with online ability), he doesn't have the same disconnects and warping with his system and internet connection. David G Fisher >The truth is that unless you know the quality of his connection and >those he was racing with there's no way to tell... >- Eric

You're probably right. But I read somewhere (Alison's FAQ?) than GPL exchanges something like twice as much info as Nascar2, and Nascar2 didn't use TCP/IP, which is much more sensitive (I believe) than hub-based IPX type networking. And packet size is -- as I understand it -- the biggest problem for Net ***. Quake (and more recently Unreal) both struggled hugely at the start, and are still only viable with a central server based on a fast connection. Despite all their efforts it's still impossible for a modem user to run a server for more than one or two players to connect to. I fly Su27 online and it faces similar problems to GPL. So does Warbirds, even using simple Head to Head IP connections, and when I tried the multiplayer Dawn of Aces arena it had more warp than the whole of Starfleet Command put together. (And Warbirds/DoA are coded from the bottom up as Net games). So overall, saying one game performs better on the Net than other isn't a very constructive statement. It can be perfectly true, but totally meaningless. It's more improtant to compare people's Net connections than the actual software they're using. Andrew McP... trying to compare apples with apples

GPL is not the first racing sim/game to offer TCP/IP racing. It's far from it. Yet, even though it has the advantage of being the most recent release, it's performance on the net is disappointing. I'm at the point now with GPL online that I don't even care what the reasons are for performance problems. If too much info is being sent, then they should of cut back on the unnecessary info and just sent the essential. They should of simply copied whatever other sim developers did that works. David G Fisher >> I'm willing to bet a real Ferrari that if I gave the original poster a few >> other sims (or other games with online ability), he doesn't have the >> same disconnects and warping with his system and internet connection. >You're probably right. But I read somewhere (Alison's FAQ?) than GPL exchanges >something like twice as much info as Nascar2, and Nascar2 didn't use TCP/IP, which is >much more sensitive (I believe) than hub-based IPX type networking. And packet size is -- >as I understand it -- the biggest problem for Net ***.

I hope Papyrus look at this and fix it in a patch, I was having an online race at the 'Ring the other day and there were 2 main problems - 1) Virtually the entire field crashed at the start due to warping - this is exacerbated by the physics model: if 2 cars warp and end up interpenetrating the physics model generates a sudden enormous force between them, resulting in the cars flying off suddenly, sometimes high into the air. 2) The 'Ring is so narrow that you couldn't pass anyone safely as their "warp radius" was as wide as the track! This was somebody hosting a race with 10 people over a cable modem. I was using ISDN with a ping time of 240. - Michael

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:57:08 -0500, "David G Fisher" >The truth is that people are constantly talking about these problems. It's >been going on for weeks now. I'm willing to bet a real Ferrari that if I >gave the original poster a few other sims (or other games with online >ability), he doesn't have the same disconnects and warping with his system >and internet connection. Y'know, it's funny the way logic goes around here. Some people have trouble with internet play and the fault lies with GPL. Never mind the fact that we use the same software and that the guy's CPU, modem, memory, entire system, are better than mine and the only thing that differs is his internet connect. As Eric mentioned, without investigating his connection and who else was connected to the server you can't understand the problem far less solve it. Saying "it's GPL" is one way to minimise his chances of solving the problem by ensuring he stops looking for it. Cheers! John

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:22:55 -0500, "David G Fisher" >ymenard, why don't you tell him the truth? The warping on a machine like his >should be minimal. Other games it would be, with GPL, it's a different >story. David, you'll be after Marc's "font" title next. The power of the system has little or nothing to do with warping, rather it's the internet connection he needs to look at. No matter how powerful a system is, if it doesn't have the data it can't plot it. Cheers! John

I feel I have to give my 2 cents on this matter 2 :)I have spent far too much time racing GPL over the net, and with my system (ISDN, PII), I'd say it's pretty darn good. Sure, I have been to races where quite a number of people have been disconnected, but those concerned have through some work managed to improve that. I have had very few races where I have been dropped, unless there has been major mayhem. It might sound childish, but I find it totally amazing that I can _race_ somebody in the USA. While sitting in the absoulute middle of nowhere; at a laid - down farm -in Norway!! In my first league race, that lasted for one hour + practice, there was 1 disco. And 14 starters! And the competition was close..in my real life racing experience, there "disconnect rate" was much higher!! Not too bad IMO! Matt_K

Gotta agree with you here. It seems there are a lot of probs on the starting grid too, probably related to a drop in fps because of the extra cars needed to be drawn both ahead and in the mirrors. For this reason, and being able to see what's going on around us, perhpas a little practice with the F10 view might be a good idea at race starts? This view reportedly yields significantly better fps and should also help us avoid incidents at the start.

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> GPL is not the first racing sim/game to offer TCP/IP racing. It's far from > it. Yet, even though it has the advantage of being the most recent release, > it's performance on the net is disappointing. I'm at the point now with GPL > online that I don't even care what the reasons are for performance problems. > If too much info is being sent, then they should of cut back on the > unnecessary info and just sent the essential. They should of simply copied > whatever other sim developers did that works. > David G Fisher > >> I'm willing to bet a real Ferrari that if I gave the original poster a > few > >> other sims (or other games with online ability), he doesn't have the > >> same disconnects and warping with his system and internet connection. > >You're probably right. But I read somewhere (Alison's FAQ?) than GPL > exchanges > >something like twice as much info as Nascar2, and Nascar2 didn't use > TCP/IP, which is > >much more sensitive (I believe) than hub-based IPX type networking. And > packet size is -- > >as I understand it -- the biggest problem for Net ***.

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and [link lost in import: /~godsoe/bolt/home.htm]

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:53:07 -0500, "David G Fisher" >it's performance on the net is disappointing. I'm at the point now with GPL >online that I don't even care what the reasons are for performance problems. That may be why you still have them. My 28.8 modem allows me to join and race perfectly in 17 player races with packets going back and forward between me in Scotland and the server in the U.S. - doesn't that suggest something with your system and connection worth looking into? What's to fix, it works perfectly. Cheers! John

% The truth is that people are constantly talking about these problems. It's % been going on for weeks now. I'm willing to bet a real Ferrari that if I % gave the original poster a few other sims (or other games with online % ability), he doesn't have the same disconnects and warping with his system % and internet connection. Warping is caused by either a bad DUN setup or poor performance by the warper's ISP's internal network or connection to the Internet. One other factor is the lantency rate. The higher the lantency, the more warping will occur. Try Ping'ing a host and see how many "time outs" or lost packets you receive. The more time outs, the higher the odds for warping, or even worse Disconnects. One other factor involved in high latencies, is the number of hops to the host machine. Try traceroute (or tracert in Win95) to find out the number of hops. There is a TON of data being pumped back and forth by GPL. Just check your modem status after a session on-line and look at the data pushed back and forth. I bet in other sims, the number of bytes for the same amount of on-line time will be greatly less. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Can you give us more info? - what are your special DUN settings and which ISP do you use? - Michael

Re you reading any of the posts here at r.a.s. over the weeks regarding the online play of GPL? David G Fisher

% Re you reading any of the posts here at r.a.s. over the weeks regarding the % online play of GPL? What ISP do you use for on-line ***? -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

You know what? Forget it. I give up. Everything works perfect with GPL and GPL online. Best ever. David G Fisher

David G Fisher wrote Naw... the impression you give to us and even to non-*** racers on r.a.s. is that GPL is crap. Also that MonacoGP and C:PR in all their aspect are as good as GPL, and even better in some point. For you it seems everything in GPL fails (physics engine, multiplayer, graphics, etc...). We are against you on that, that's why we argument with you. It's seriously the People vs. David Fisher ;-) - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

David G Fisher wrote Yes of course... "Racing sim/game". You open the horizons to arcade-style internet multiplayer racing like POD and MTM1/2 and MCM, who you know and we know are much less demanding for online racing. I got no problem joining ANY races with my 28.8 modem. That's 15+, even full field races. The only problem I might have is that Concentric disconnects me from the ISP about 1-2times per day... (they are fixing the Montreal POP server). Still, since we are talking about a racing simulator.. what is for you "send the essential". What do you think should be disabled ? This is a racing simulator.. offline or online. Not an arcade game. Im waiting for your answer on that ;) - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

I said in previous posts that GPL is excellent and that my two favorite sims are GPL and MGP. I haven't mentioned CP except to reference it's multiplay capability. Where does "crap" come from. As usual on r.a.s., there's no point in discussing a sim's faults with people once they have dedicated as many hours to a sim as you have. You'll never let yourself see those faults. GPL is the best. Rah, rah, rah. MGP sucks. David G Fisher >Naw... the impression you give to us and even to non-*** racers on >r.a.s. is that GPL is crap. >Also that MonacoGP and C:PR in all their aspect are as good as GPL, and even >better in some point. For you it seems everything in GPL fails (physics >engine, multiplayer, graphics, etc...). We are against you on that, that's >why we argument with you. >It's seriously the People vs. David Fisher ;-)

No-one can claim GPL's net code's perfect. Maybe it's not even very well optimised given release dates etc. But in my experience online in a variety of games/sims, the Net quality of all participants is the biggest factor. It's possible that GPL is less forgiving than some, and sometimes one rotten connection seems to drag the whole race down. It's just difficult to work out exactly where the problem lies, which is why Net *** remains a deeply problematic area for games developers. It's just not a level playing field, and you can't blame developers for that. I'm just glad it works at all! Of course Papyrus have my permission to keep working on the Net code and getting the packet size down ;-) Andrew McP

Agreed 100%. I'm probably just an old romantic, but I don't take any of this for granted. The Net has introduced me to some great people and given me some superb sim experiences. Some huge frustrations as well, but that -- as they say -- is life! Andrew McP

As you keep reminding me, I've no idea what's going on inside GPL. Similarly you have no idea what's being passed back and forth on the Net compared to other games/sims, and how necessary all that data is. It's quite possible Papyrus could get away with exchanging a simple x,y,z coord for other cars. It'd be interesting to see it tried. In the mean time I'll be enjoying myself online, warts and all. Andrew McP

Michael Powell heeft geschreven in bericht you through the start relatively easy, even with high latencies or warping. <snip> Bart

My personal experiences can be thrown out the window. Even if I was having great success, it wouldn't change the overall situation which is what matters. I see post after post of people having problems with warping and disconnects even with pings of 200. You don't? The fact that it's not recommended to host more than two other racers on a 33.6 or 56k modem says it all. Call Papyrus's help line and see if you can't get the person on the phone to admit that the online problems are real. I talk to veteran online sim racers all the time and most of them have had the same problems as me and rate GPL's online play as poor and frustrating when compared to older, previous sims. David G Fisher >I've been reading your posts over the last month or so, and i've >noticed that you've gotten fed up with not being able to get a good >stable GPL connect going, so now you're just not willing to use logic >any more.

David G Fisher wrote Host. Not join a server. <please> Where do I see this ?? What like 2-3 people that posted that on r.a.s. in a month .. Btw David, Im the tech support guy for VROC, and from all the emails I received none of them were to complaint or to tell me a suggestion about their connection. I got a person who was wondering what are good pings and help to get his connection faster, but he didn't had problems at all. So your saying as a FACT that people are complaining. And Im saying as a FACT that people aren't. If they would r.a.s. would be plenty of people complaining. And I would had received plenty of people complaining. "most" ? Can you please talk about numbers, or people name's here... I mean... I talked to many veteran also, and I still saw nobody that said it was ***like you think. Of course, they all agree this ain't the NROS, but nothing is like the NROS. It's completly different, in another world. So who are those people David ? - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:19:08 -0000, "Michael Powell" >I hope Papyrus look at this and fix it in a patch, I was having an online >race at the 'Ring the other day and there were 2 main problems - >1) Virtually the entire field crashed at the start due to warping - this is >exacerbated by the physics model: if 2 cars warp and end up interpenetrating >the physics model generates a sudden enormous force between them, resulting >in the cars flying off suddenly, sometimes high into the air. Yes, this happens now and then. At least funny to watch. I was wondering about "sideway warping" also. Sometimes, while getting passed (seems to be I'm the slowest GPL online racer in the world) the other cars shows up in the grass on the right side, then on the left side, so I guess he crashed and spun out. But no, obviously he drove perfectly straight and continues normally. Ok, I can understand that cars warp "forward", but why should they show up at places where the real driver obviusoly never has been? -- _____ /_______\ .\\ a t t h e a d I XT /~~~~ I 500\_____ 1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro \____/\__I_I http://matthead.home.pages.de/

>Host. Not join a server. <please> Alison says on her site that the most a person should attempt to host on a 33.6 or 56k modem is two other drivers. In late 1998, that's ridiculous. 2-3??? In a month???? I can't even respond to this. This is exactly why trying to discuss GPL is impossible. You have too many hours in the sim to discuss any criticism. LOL David G Fisher

> You know what? Forget it. I give up. Everything works perfect with GPL and > GPL online. Best ever. I've been reading your posts over the last month or so, and i've noticed that you've gotten fed up with not being able to get a good stable GPL connect going, so now you're just not willing to use logic any more. I expect that i'd probably be similarly miffed if i couldn't get my system working either:) But that's not an excuse to run around being bitter in response to everyone else's enjoyment. I am not sure what the problem could be but there are just so darn many variables to take into account that it could be anything that is messing up your connections: -A ***modem. -***modem drivers. -Something not quite set up right in the 52349524 different Windows internet related settings that need fiddling with or updated before everything works stably. -***ISP. -Bad routing somewhere just outside of your ISP. -The phase of the moon, what your horoscope says, etc:) the week before GPL showed up on my doorstep I went to Alison's site and went to a linked page off her Online page that covers all sorts of modifications to be done to optimise online connections, from some Quake guy's web page. A lot of those modifications involved downloading updates to the win95 DUN, kernel, TCP, winsock, etc, almost all of these updates have the described purpose of "providing a more stable TCP/IP connection". Have you done this sort of thing, yet? I run GPL on my P233mmx, i get around 20-25fps online, i run a 33.6 external modem, i get between 600-800ms latency to all the US cable modem servers, and I never get random disconnects unless something glitches in the internet or my modem drops (it drops at least once a day while playing GPL). Yes, to me every single car on the track appears to warp quite a bit . But I don't mind just sitting behind people until they fall off. If they don't fall off, then they deserve the place:) and on the rare occasions where someone is behind me and actually faster than me, i am more than happy to let them past if they make a good passing manoever (why can i never spell that word?). I hope you can get your system going well eventually. Grant.

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:57:08 -0500, "David G Fisher" >The truth is that people are constantly talking about these problems. It's >been going on for weeks now. I'm willing to bet a real Ferrari that if I >gave the original poster a few other sims (or other games with online >ability), he doesn't have the same disconnects and warping with his system >and internet connection. Since David is beating this old drum again, and I had made some complaints about GPL online, I figured I'd update the group on my experiences. The main problem I found was a time-warp type effect -- the game was running slower than real-time while online (shades of GP2). I found that keeping my frame rate at 36 fps solved this. Alison's online FAQ seems to indicate that this (36fps) is recommended, but not required. For me, it's mandatory to avoid slow-mo. I've tuned my DUN as recommended, kept my frame rate up, and have gotten pretty good results. A couple of things that I have observed... * I cannot connect to my ISP (wizvax.net) at 56k if I turn off error correction (as Alison recommends). It will connect at 33.6k and lower with EC off. * My ISP has an older modem bank with 33.6k modems, and a newer bank with v.90 56k modems. If I try to connect to the newer v.90s with my external Zoom 56k v.90 at 33.6k with EC off, the results are very poor (very low throughput). I've found the best 33.6k with EC off results are with the older modem bank (dedicated 33.6k modems). This is what I use for my online racing. * I have had some disconnects. Some seem to be due to overloaded servers (the newer VROC software helps some). Other disconnects seem to originate with my ISP; either it will turn off ClearToSend and refuse data or it will stop sending data. With this sort of failure, everyone else disappears (spooky ;), and you cruise along for about 10 seconds before GPL gets lonely and disconnects. * I crank my C300A up to 450MHz for online use. The load of handling the serial port makes this highly beneficial. (Maybe this is David's problem, assuming it's not his ISP connection.) * I've been running with a local friend who hosts our races on his cable modem. Him, me, and 8-12 AIs. We rarely have problems, and those that we do can usually be blamed on my ISP. A stable connection such as this has been invaluable in diagnosing and testing different online configurations. I have not yet hosted races on my modem (assuming it would be inferior), but it's on my to-do list. * I join pick-up races on VROC. The connections are of varying quality. You can use the info provided (server capability, ping time) to pick and choose the best connections. If you find a bad connection, you can always try another... That's all I can think of for now. The past three weeks have been my first experience in online racing, and I'm pretty happy with how it has turned out. I do have the option of a cable modem in my area, and had thus far resisted due to the added cost ($46 vs. $20). I'm still evaluating that, but I've tweaked Wizvax so it is at least a feasible alternative to cable. NAR Northeast Regional Contest Board site - points and more...

>you through the start relatively easy, even with high latencies or warping. I hope more people running servers use this - I don't host races as I only have a modem link and its not that much fun with just 3/4 people - Michael

I don't understand this either - most client/server network games use interpolation/extrapolation techniques to cover up the "gaps" in the message stream. GPL doesn't seem to do this for some reason and cars only appear when a packet is sent and recieved by the client. - Michael

On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:41:42 -0500, "David G Fisher" >You know what? Forget it. I give up. Everything works perfect with GPL and >GPL online. Best ever. I really don't think you should do that Dave... (wasn't that a line from 2001 or something?) Life's too short to argue, and the only reason I'm disagreeing with you is because a) you like sims, and b) I'm having sooooooo much fun racing GPL online - you need to enjoy it too (Yes, yes, that was two reasons...). I'm truly flabbergasted that my 28.8 can race with 17 other people hosted from a server in the U.S., and if you can't achieve that then something is wierd that needs identified, caught and shot. Comms is a black art at the best of times, and when mixed in with Windows95/98 and seasoned with the usual driver/config problems it is quite tricky to get right. It could be that my perception of quality simply differs from yours, but I don't think that is the case. If you really do want to try and get things working I'll happily put my money where my mouth is and meet you online where we can try various changes and see what works. I have ISDN connect now, so we should be able to get a stable connection to work with. Cheers! John

We could at least live without smoke, dust, fire, etc.... for starters. And I see no real reason for revs/selected gear info to be exchaged either. I would sacrifice this stuff for better connections any day. Same goes for front wheel orientation! Overkill on Papy's part if you ask me. Ok for LANs but ridiculous for the internet.

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> > They should of simply copied whatever > > other sim developers did that works. > As you keep reminding me, I've no idea what's going on inside GPL. Similarly you have no > idea what's being passed back and forth on the Net compared to other games/sims, and > how necessary all that data is. > It's quite possible Papyrus could get away with exchanging a simple x,y,z coord for other > cars. It'd be interesting to see it tried. In the mean time I'll be enjoying myself online, warts > and all. > Andrew McP

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

David Fischer is obviously not alone in having online problems with GPL. Here are mine: I have a US Robotics Sportster v.90 (hardware / not winmodem), but apparently due to my phone lines, I can only connect to my ISP at 28.8. My ISP, Mindspring in Denver, Colorado, USA, does support v.90, but when using US Robotics "line test" program, it reported that I was unable to achieve 56K transmissions. I assume the problem is that there is an additional analog-to-digital conversion on the line, which negates 56K. So my phone lines are already questionable. I also should add I have a 400 MHz PII with a 12Meg Voodoo2 and am able to get 36 fps everywhere except at the start and other graphics intensive moments. At any rate, I usually do get the 28.8 connection with Mindspring, and I make sure that I get this before going to VROC. I NEVER get dropped from the Mindspring connection, but I am disconnected while playing GPL online fairly often. I have downloaded the core.ini file from Alison's web site and have made all the suggested DUN tweaks. I also only join sessions where I am getting a ping under 500 and the host has at least a cable modem. This weekend, for example, I was one lap from getting my first online podium at Monza when I was disconnected. Prior to the disconnect, there was a message displayed at the top of the screen about a network error. I then joined a race at Mexico City, which was pretty successful except for the inevitable warp fest at the start. The host then moved us all over to Rouen. I have read that it is a bad idea to do this without rebooting or having everyone rejoin. Is that correct? Anyway, at the start of the race, with a field of about eight people, I couldn't see a soul. I raced for a few laps and finally saw a Lotus briefly. My pitboard indicated that I was 4 laps behind the guy in front of me and 2 laps ahead of the next guy, but this was impossible. No one else seemed to have this problem. Bizarre. Later, I joined a race at Zandvoort, and was doing fairly well many laps into the race when I was disconnected. This is a pretty typical session for me - about a 50% success rate. In all these races, I should add, you could see other people getting disconnected fairly regularly, so I was not alone in my problems. This is the only online racing I have done, so I can't compare it to other applications. I have flown some online air combat (Air Warrior / Confirmed Kill), however, without ever experiencing a disconnect. This was on a much less powerful machine and a slower modem, but a different ISP, so that contaminates those results. As I mentioned above, my phone line is already suspect. I just thought I'd add another data point to the debate. When Jupiter aligns with Mars and everything works out, it is a blast, I must say! Dave Ewing

John, How about we make a deal? You start responding to the others with the same complaints about online play with GPL, tell them nothing's wrong, and I'll stop posting on the subject. There's plenty for you to respond to daily, instead of just my weekly contributions. David G Fisher reason I'm disagreeing with

% David Fischer is obviously not alone in having online problems with % GPL. Here are mine: I would suggest an experiment. . . Using VROC, find a host and then click on Join. When GPL fires up, note the IP address of the hosts's machine. Now exit GPL and launch to DOS windows. In the one window run ping -t <IP Address>. The -t switch means it will continue to ping until you cancel <CTRL-C>. Watch for "timed out" lines. If you see alot of them (especially back-to-back) this is a good indication of why you will get disconnected. If you get alot of timed outs, run tracert <IP Address> in the the other DOS box. This will list the "hops" you are making to the host. You may need to run this serval times (just press F3 to reissue the command in that DOS box). Watch for a hop that takes a long time to respond. If it's close to your end of the loop, check with your ISP as to why there appears to be such lags. If they are closer to the host's end, then you may never be able to connect reliabily with them. I've connected with hosts in the UK and have gotten better results that with some hosts that are on the same coast as me (Pacific USA). Another thing that maybe happening is that your modem is continually stopping to "re-train" due to line noises over your phone lines. You may want to check with your phone service and ask them to test the lines to your house. There maybe a problem there. You may also want to check all of your phone line connections throughout your house and make sure they are clean and tight. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Or, remember all the success you've had racing online in the past, and then simply compare it to the constant disconnects and warping with GPL. David G Fisher >% David Fischer is obviously not alone in having online problems with >% GPL. Here are mine: >I would suggest an experiment. . .

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:11:59 -0500, "David G Fisher" >John, How about we make a deal? You start responding to the others with the >same complaints about online play with GPL, tell them nothing's wrong, and >I'll stop posting on the subject. There's plenty for you to respond to >daily, instead of just my weekly contributions. I'll happily do so - I just don't see as many as you seem to. Cheers! John

% Or, remember all the success you've had racing online in the past, and then % simply compare it to the constant disconnects and warping with GPL. Or do what you seem to refuse to do, see what may be causing the problems. If everyone was having the problems you think we are, I would agree with you. But, since a large number of people are not experiencing the problems, it would suggest that there is something that can be "tweaked" to make GPL work as well as others are experiencing. The areas I listed in the post are usually the main culprits. Following your reasoning (or total lack thereof), when a new program comes out and it doesn't perform as well as WordStar did on one's 8088 system, there must be something wrong with the program. Well, sure enough there is, they have added a GUI system to it, made it memory hungry, added new features and guess what? It will require a system upgrade (including OS) to get it to run. Or you can sit and enjoy your WordStar for what it is. GPL is not like any other racing sim in the past, it is pushing the bleeding edge, this means, just like everything else computer related, it's time to move on. If this means finding a better ISP to handle the data GPL needs to run via the Internet, you can find a better ISP, *** and moan, or just simply forget about playing on-line. I wonder which option you are taking? ;-) % >% David Fischer is obviously not alone in having online problems with % >% GPL. Here are mine: % > % >I would suggest an experiment. . . -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:55:44 -0500, "David G Fisher" >Or, remember all the success you've had racing online in the past Some good fun in MTM, a blast on NROS. Nope, very little of that. Cheers! John

Did you give this advice to Byron too, or just me? David G Fisher > But, since a large number of people are not >experiencing the problems, it would suggest that there is something that >can be "tweaked" to make GPL work as well as others are experiencing.

I don't post much, but here goes... >% Or, remember all the success you've had racing online in the past, and then

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>% simply compare it to the constant disconnects and warping with GPL. >Or do what you seem to refuse to do, see what may be causing the >problems. If everyone was having the problems you think we are, I would >agree with you. But, since a large number of people are not >experiencing the problems, it would suggest that there is something that >can be "tweaked" to make GPL work as well as others are experiencing.

I do have problems with the connection occasionally, Michael (as much as I dislike contributing to David's rant). Case in point is this past Sunday on Randy's GPLWS, where I did my fastest time ever at The Glen during our practice for the Lites, & was disconnected near the end of practice, only to find that I could not get back in! (I might even have been able to give you some comp this time!) Turns out that my normally dependable ISP was having probs on Sunday eve because of the amount of traffic & the phone company switching something on their end. The prob was not GPLs, but mine.(my ISPs) Also, the only "warping" that I've encountered seems to be caused by the "other" guy's slower comp, or their connection with the host. As far as I can tell, if everyone has a decent comp, & a reliable connection, the racing is great. The Internet is becoming SO popular, & the amount of traffic is increasing SO quickly, that it is a wonder that we can race at all. Of the 4 races I started on GPLWS, I was able to finish 2, retired from 1 intentionally (too embarrassing to continue), & was booted from the last.(Sun eve, a very busy time) Racing on the 'net is far better than anyone could have imagined just a few short years ago (who would have imagined it at all?) & it will just keep getting better. In the meantime, I'll put up with the probs, & be thankful that I can participate when I can. Life IS different, now. Brian

Hi Byron, Is this information really sent over the net connection? Sheesh, that's would be quite insane... and I'd imagine chat would be up there as well as far as data transfers are concerned, do we need this in a race?!? Does anyone out there know what information is actually sent over the net with GPL online? Cheers Kane >We could at least live without smoke, dust, fire, etc.... for starters. And I see no >real reason for revs/selected gear info to be exchaged either. I would sacrifice this >stuff for better connections any day. Same goes for front wheel orientation! Overkill on

% I have just raced for the 1st time on the 'net'. However, % the opponents cars disappear, even when close, and then % reappear again. Do I need to turn down the res or detail % level? % I have a PII 450 with 256 Ram, and a 56k connection, playing % at 1024x768 (2xMonster 3dfx II cards) The disappearing cars are usually caused by the player's connection that is disappearing. Their latency connection to the host is too high and when the host doesn't get a response for a long time, it simply blanks the car. If your latency count is low (below 400), you should be fine. and changing your detail level won't help the players with high latencies. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Isn't it possible to to get packets out of sequence? GPL might ignore the odd one, but if a sequence of data got out of sync might be a bit confusing. Andrew McP

I have a friend who works for a company that makes/lays fibre-optic cables for international comms and they're churning out everything they possibly can as fast as they can. The world's appetite for bandwidth is going up faster than it can be satisfied. Here in the UK we've seen a recent spate of free ISP's who get their revenue by charging a lot for tech support. Add to that cheap hardware and Xmas, and we could be in for a rather slow New Year. Nice to have something to look forward to :-) Andrew McP

It's very possible. Most games time-stamp their packets so that an older packet comes through than the last one received its thrown away. Unless it's an important message such as end-of-practice. - Michael

Yes it is. I remember having a discussion about this before thinking that ping would be the *** factor but bandwidth seems to be beyond imagination.

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> Hi Byron, > Is this information really sent over the net connection? Sheesh, that's > would be quite insane... and I'd imagine chat would be up there as well as > far as data transfers are concerned, do we need this in a race?!? > Does anyone out there know what information is actually sent over the net > with GPL online? > Cheers > Kane > >We could at least live without smoke, dust, fire, etc.... for starters. And > I see no > >real reason for revs/selected gear info to be exchaged either. I would > sacrifice this > >stuff for better connections any day. Same goes for front wheel > orientation! Overkill on > >Papy's part if you ask me. Ok for LANs but ridiculous for the internet.

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and [link lost in import: /~godsoe/bolt/home.htm]

Which would account for the stuttering cars (now you see them, now you don't). They must be a way of "smoothing" out the gaps, so let's hope Papyrus get the time to tweak the net code. Andrew McP... oh damn, I just suggested there's something wrong in GPL! <fx:throws self out of window> PS <fx: remembers he lives on the ground floor>

Ah, but that's because the pro-GPL faction scare people off remember? Must be true because the Y, O,U, S, C & K keys on my keyboard are nearly worn out. Andrew McP