Hi all
My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've tried to
put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I
like GPL really <g>.
I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed:
- is GPL realistic
- is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough)
I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book
by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing
in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss
turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting
in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the
race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either
professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable
speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss!
Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some
were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the
hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise.
Hence my argument that it's not realistic.
Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>.
Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be
able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or even come
close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has
failed IMO.
Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated
drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they
can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't
believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several
years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of
people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense.
Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically
said:
- I'm not good enough
- I need to practise more
- I want to play an arcade game
- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I drive around
None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's
not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is
that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK
to drive - but few have taken this line.
Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find
GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by
making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next
products will be that much better as a result <g>.
Notable threadIs GPL too difficult or simply realistic?
Lawrence Edwards argued GPL was harder than real 1960s racing given limited practice in that era and asked for easier options. John Wallace and others said difficulty reflects the reality of racing cars, and John Klemantaski, who raced a 1967 F3 car, offered first-hand comparisons. Christer Andersson questioned some aspects of realism, and tips on adjusting AI strength were shared.
physics/realism debateGrand Prix Legends
Automated summary.
Quoted text (28 lines)
> Hi all > My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've > tried to > put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because > I > like GPL really <g>. > I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting > discussed: > - is GPL realistic > - is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough) > I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a > book > by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was > racing > in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about > Moss > turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and > putting > in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at > the > race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either > professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at > reasonable > speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss!Hi Lawarence,
Two things I think will help with the difficulty, maybe. :-)
Get Jim Clark, or Dennis Hulme to coach you. No, really!
You can adjust the RELS (RELative Strength) in the sim just like ICR/CART and
NASCAR. Well, not just like that.
In each track file (?/GPL/TRACKS/Whichever Track) there's a Track Cofiguration
Setting file (track.ini). If you open up that file you should see a line that
reads:
[ GP ]
dlong_speed_adj_coeff = 0.990000
(Papyrus's line description is: value modifies dlong velocities (i.e. RELS) in
..LP)
Actually, that's what I've changed the setting to for Mexico. It originally
read something like 1.042000. Change that number to something less than 1.0 and
it will slow the AI cars/drivers down.
The other thing is once you get the Clarks, Hills and Bandini's slowed down to
around your fastest time for a particular track (you can check quickly by
accelerating the time in practice and watching the lap times) go out and
practice with them. But wait in the pits until one of the cars leaves and get
in behind him and stay there as long as you can stand it. Stay fairly close but
several car lengths behind and just follow him around trying not to run into him
in the breaking zones. It will probably seem slow in the turns, but you should
begin to notice it also feels more controllable. After a while you'll get bored
driving behind him and start looking for a safe place to pass. Go ahead a pass
and try to drive to stay on the track comfortably. In a lap or two, maybe less,
you should come upon another car. Stay behind him for a few laps.
When you start consistently lapping with the fastest drivers go back an adjust
the RELS a little higher.
Hope this helps.
-Mike
Quoted text (56 lines)
> Hi all > My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've tried to > put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I > like GPL really <g>. > I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed: > - is GPL realistic > - is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough) > I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book > by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing > in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss > turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting > in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the > race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either > professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable > speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss! > Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some > were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the > hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise. > Hence my argument that it's not realistic. > Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>. > Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be > able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or even come > close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has > failed IMO. > Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated > drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they > can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't > believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several > years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of > people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense. > Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically > said: > - I'm not good enough > - I need to practise more > - I want to play an arcade game > - I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I drive around > None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's > not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is > that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK > to drive - but few have taken this line. > Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find > GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by > making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next > products will be that much better as a result <g>.Hi Matt
>Yes they did! Testing, testing.....And they did'nt exactly jump from
>being 16 years into F1, or from being 40 and driving an Opel Corsa to a
>1967 Formula one car either!
The opportunity for drivers to put in hours and hours of testing is
relatively new to F1. In the fifties there would be two practise days,
sometimes drivers would only drive on one of those days beacuse of
mechanical problems or because they arrive late or the weather is bad etc.
Often drivers would do 10 to 20 laps only and hope to qualify - remember
that the cars were extremely unreliable and so they couldn't push them too
hard.
Don't forget that drivers were not nearly as 'dedicated' as they are now.
Even the professional drivers still had the attitude that racing should be
fun - whereas today winning is everything. If GPL is meant to simulate the
feeling of driving an F1 car in the late sixties - it slightly misses the
target for me because it's too frustrating.
Also, a lot of retirements and injuries were caused my mechanical failures,
not generally because the cars were so bl**dy difficult to drive. F1 teams
in the late sixties were clearly more 'professional' than was the case in
the fifties, but you would still get teams arriving at a circuit with a
newly designed and built car which had hardly been tested at all - just a
few laps done by the mechanics to run the engine in.
I also think you'll find that the best drivers did have a relatively fast
progression into formula 1. OK, so Moss was exceptional, but again they
didn't generally have years of apprenticeship through carting and the lower
formulas.
I never owned an Opel Corsa by the way, the closest was a Vauxhall Viva <g>.
That would be excellent.
It's all a matter of degree. I don't want it to be so easy that there's no
satisfaction in 'mastering' it. I just think it would be a better product if
the driving model was slightly easier and there were some more options to
make it less frustrating for learners.
Hi Mike
Thanks - I wondered how to go about adjusting the .ini files. I'll give it a
go - at the moment I'm hopelessly off the pace at a few tracks, eg Monaco,
which I can hardly get round at all!
In the practises I do generally try and follow another car for a few laps -
this is a good way to learn how much to brake. It usually ends in tears
though, not to mention the fire and ***.
and
>NASCAR. Well, not just like that.
>In each track file (?/GPL/TRACKS/Whichever Track) there's a Track Cofiguration
>Setting file (track.ini). If you open up that file you should see a line that
>reads:
> [ GP ]
> dlong_speed_adj_coeff = 0.990000
>(Papyrus's line description is: value modifies dlong velocities (i.e. RELS) in
>..LP)
>Actually, that's what I've changed the setting to for Mexico. It originally
>read something like 1.042000. Change that number to something less than 1.0 and
>it will slow the AI cars/drivers down.
>The other thing is once you get the Clarks, Hills and Bandini's slowed down to
>around your fastest time for a particular track (you can check quickly by
>accelerating the time in practice and watching the lap times) go out and
>practice with them. But wait in the pits until one of the cars leaves and get
>in behind him and stay there as long as you can stand it. Stay fairly close but
>several car lengths behind and just follow him around trying not to run into him
>in the breaking zones. It will probably seem slow in the turns, but you should
>begin to notice it also feels more controllable. After a while you'll get bored
>driving behind him and start looking for a safe place to pass. Go ahead a pass
>and try to drive to stay on the track comfortably. In a lap or two, maybe less,
>you should come upon another car. Stay behind him for a few laps.
>When you start consistently lapping with the fastest drivers go back an adjust
to
>> put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I
>> like GPL really <g>.
>> I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed:
>> - is GPL realistic
>> - is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough)
>> I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book
>> by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing
>> in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss
>> turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting
>> in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the
>> race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either
>> professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable
>> speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss!
>> Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some
>> were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the
>> hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise.
>> Hence my argument that it's not realistic.
>> Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>.
>> Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be
>> able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or even come
>> close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has
>> failed IMO.
>> Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated
>> drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they
>> can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't
>> believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several
>> years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of
around
>> None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's
>> not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is
>> that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK
>> to drive - but few have taken this line.
>> Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find
>> GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by
>> making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next
>> products will be that much better as a result <g>.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Hi Lawarence, >Two things I think will help with the difficulty, maybe. :-) >Get Jim Clark, or Dennis Hulme to coach you. No, really! >You can adjust the RELS (RELative Strength) in the sim just like ICR/CARTQuoted text (12 lines)
>the RELS a little higher. >Hope this helps. >-Mike >> Hi all >> My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've triedQuoted text (9 lines)
>> people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense. >> Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically >> said: >> - I'm not good enough >> - I need to practise more >> - I want to play an arcade game >> - I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I driveBut surely that's exactly what you want? You wrote a little up the page...
I'm "only" 35, and I seem to have learned precious little in those years. But one thing that seems to repeat itself over and over again is the "no pain, no
gain" mantra. Nothing worth having's ever come easily for me... which may be why the only games software on my HD at the moment is Su-27 Flanker
and GPL.
My first reaction is if you don't enjoy*** onto the back of the field, you're probably driving the wrong sim :-) I drive against 19 ai and I struggle in
races to get up to 10th... on a good day! But it's an incredible experience. I've never had this with any other sim and I'm beginning to wonder whether
we've finally seen sims come of age. In the past everyone's been "a gamer" to a greater or lesser extent. I still enjoy looking at demos, but at heart I just
want the best, most immersive driving/flying experience I can get.
I fully expect within the next few years to have top start paying *much* more for my software. Now hardware can deliver such excellent levels of
simulation I think it's unfair to expect developers to stretch their talents across the whole spectrum... from POD to GPL in one piece of software.
I'm not saying that isn't possible, just wondering if -- given development times -- there are better things for programmers to be doing.
Real drivers have a few things in their favour. First and foremost, the drivers we know well were the best of their generation, not just Joe Average sitting
at his PC! Some people are just naturally good at things, and the ability to judge when a car's on the edge of its performance envelope -- although
something I'm sure you can learn -- must be something some drivers find easier to react to. It's about response times, instinct, skill, all that stuff.
They also have another advantage... they know they're going to die if they get it wrong! Well, they did then.
And, of course, there's that "seat of the pants" thing for feedback. That's not available to us, so you have to learn to listen hard and be gentle with the
controls... Oh hang on, now I'm telling you to practice more ;-)
Andrew McP... who agrees with the fact Papyrus could have made life simpler for themselves and the buying public with a few easily accessible skill
sliders, but finds himself increasingly at odds with the notion that one product can/should be all things to all men.
Lawrence
Your basic premise is wrong.
GPL is difficult for most people because driving racing cars at racing speed
is difficult for most people. The sim rewards and punishes the driver just
as a real car does. Driving anything on the road is not comparable. You may
like to think that, put into a 1967 Lotus 49 and given a couple of days (or
weeks) to practice, you'd be "there or thereabouts"; well, you wouldn't. GPL
isn't unrealistically difficult, it's unrealistically easy. It allows you to
make mistakes and live, to push beyond the limit and live, to try and try
and try again until you get it right. GPL set out to be, within the limits
of what's possible with domestic hardware, a realistic driving sim based on
1967 Grand Prix cars. These are mid-engined cars with limited grip,
indifferent brakes and 400bhp. I imagine you haven't driven anything with
400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed
anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and possibly
misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite unwarranted
conclusions. Here's some advice: Stop worrying about whether it's
realistic - it is. Learn about car handling. Spend time on it. It can be
mastered. One of the big advantages of the early GP cars in GPL is that, on
the whole, when they get out of shape you've got time to light a
cigarette(metaphorically, of course) before you apply opposite lock. Try
that in F1Sim/MGPRS! I've yet to read one criticism concerning the
unrealistic level of difficulty or AI talent ( as in the whine "How come the
AIs can drive on cold tyres and I can't?") which was justified. Papyrus has
done a first-rate job in making GPL the most realistic sim so far available.
That fact alone will keep it selling for a long time to come. Will it
outsell F198? Of course not. It's not aimed at the same market. If you're
not comfortable with GPL, consider alternatives which allow you to be on the
pace very quickly without being a good driver; there are a lot of driving
games out there and I'm sure that some of them will give you what you're
looking for. On the other hand, GPL is a good enough sim that you'll learn a
lot about real driving if you persevere. Try.
John Klemantaski
racing
come
around
>None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's
>not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is
>that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK
>to drive - but few have taken this line.
>Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find
>GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by
>making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next
>products will be that much better as a result <g>.
Quoted text (13 lines)
>Hi all >My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've tried to >put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I >like GPL really <g>. >I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed: >- is GPL realistic >- is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough) >I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book >by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss wasQuoted text (16 lines)
>in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss >turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting >in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the >race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either >professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable >speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss! >Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some >were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the >hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise. >Hence my argument that it's not realistic. >Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>. >Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be >able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or evenQuoted text (17 lines)
>close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has >failed IMO. >Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated >drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they >can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't >believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several >years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of >people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense. >Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically >said: >- I'm not good enough >- I need to practise more >- I want to play an arcade game >- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I driveHi Andrew
>> - I want to play an arcade game
>But surely that's exactly what you want? You wrote a little up the page...
Ho hum...
But one thing that seems to repeat itself over and over again is the "no
pain, no
be why the only games software on my HD at the moment is Su-27 Flanker
It clearly depends on your approach to sims. My preference is obviously for
a little more fun and a little less pain <g>. It's just unfortunate that GPL
doesn't cater for my preference as well as it *could* and *should*.
you're probably driving the wrong sim :-) I drive against 19 ai and I
struggle in
experience. I've never had this with any other sim and I'm beginning to
wonder whether
to a greater or lesser extent. I still enjoy looking at demos, but at heart
I just
You're better at GPL than me then. I can't complete a full race on the more
tricky circuits without crashing. I want an immersive and realistic
experience as well - but GPL is a mass market product, not an expensive
specialized one. With respect, it's you whose driving the wrong sim - if you
see what I mean ;) please don't take offence at this - I don't mean it in an
insulting way.
more for my software. Now hardware can deliver such excellent levels of
talents across the whole spectrum... from POD to GPL in one piece of
software.
times -- there are better things for programmers to be doing.
I haven't said or implied that this is what I want - you are taking things
to extremes. How difficult would it be for the programmers to allow racing
in trainers for example? One thing is certain, if the product doesn't sell
then either we will have to pay more - or developers won't undertake
projects if they suspect they will be loss making (which company was it that
recently laid off lots of staff?).
drivers we know well were the best of their generation, not just Joe Average
sitting
to judge when a car's on the edge of its performance envelope -- although
easier to react to. It's about response times, instinct, skill, all that
stuff.
So basically you can find no compromise then. Joe Average will not get any
enjoyment from GPL. GPL will therefore sell roughly 100 copies by this line
of argument - being the number of really top class sim drivers.
get it wrong! Well, they did then.
not available to us, so you have to learn to listen hard and be gentle with
the
for themselves and the buying public with a few easily accessible skill
product can/should be all things to all men.
I touched on this point in the GPL full screen thread. If the perception is
that the sim is harder to drive because there are less sensory inputs than
in a real car, the developers should IMO compensate for this by making
compromises.
What exactly is wrong with giving more *options* to make it easier? Would
you prefer it if you couldn't reset, or use escape to return to the pits, or
if you had to wait 48 hours after every crash for the car to be rebuilt?
This would be more realistic. Indeed, maybe there could be enforced
hospitalisation after each accident and Sierra could send some flowers to
your sick bed after every crash <EBG>.
You're right, I haven't driven a single seater. I would be interested to
know if you have? If you have driven in a 1960's formula 1 car in a race
then OK, you would be in a better position to judge......
>I imagine you haven't driven anything with
>400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed
>anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and possibly
>misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite unwarranted
>conclusions.
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:25:58 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
In your haste to convince yourself, remember too the other side of the
coin. Jim Clark, to take one example, drove not only F1, but F2,
sportscars, saloons and pretty much anything else that went quickly.
These guys were not only the "creme de la creme", but had been driving
and racing from a very early age. Now consider people with no racing
experience nor even experience of driving a car on the limit, and how
they would cope when dropped into an F1 car.
I'm sure the average man in the street of that era would think the
same - he, however, was not Jim Clark.
Not so. Clark progressed from local events all the way up to F1, and
while there wasn't the multi-layer structure and progression we find
these days, there was a definite learning ladder.
Perhaps, but that is different from saying that what it is at present
misses the mark as to what it is trying to achieve.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (7 lines)
>The opportunity for drivers to put in hours and hours of testing is >relatively new to F1. In the fifties there would be two practise days, >sometimes drivers would only drive on one of those days beacuse of >mechanical problems or because they arrive late or the weather is bad etc. >Often drivers would do 10 to 20 laps only and hope to qualify - remember >that the cars were extremely unreliable and so they couldn't push them too >hard.On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:27:12 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
>It clearly depends on your approach to sims. My preference is obviously for
>a little more fun and a little less pain <g>. It's just unfortunate that GPL
>doesn't cater for my preference as well as it *could* and *should*.
Why exacty "*should*" GPL cater for you rather than those that prefer
their sims to simulate? By that token every flight sim should follow
along the lines of "Jet" because that was the only one I've ever
enjoyed, but of course that is nonsense. I can easily accept that my
attention span, talent and desire are not enough to do well with
flight sims, but I certainly don't want to dumb them down and ruin
them for those who want t***, AWACS, and hours of flying to and
from targets. Good luck and lots of fun to them.
Maybe that would be a good idea? I guarantee you that you'll find
people who believe that to be the case, and when you are good at GPL
and you find people lunging for impossible gaps simply because "I
can't be hurt so might as well try it" then you may think that it's
maybe not such a bad idea.
GPL doesn't offer enough options for you, fine, that's always going to
be the case - nothing can appeal to all.
Cheers!
John
Lawrence, how dare you, GPL is still a religion and will be for another couple
of month or so :o).
Seriously, I think GPL is too difficult and I think it is too unrealistic. I
know this is blesphamy, but this is the beauty with NG's, even blesphamy is
allowed :o). It's the good old freedom of speech thingy.
My fastest at Monza is a 1:28.04 and it's with a Thrustmaster Formula 1 Pro,
making me a stick shifter and not a very slow one :o). I have well over 1000
hours in racing sim; GP2, F1RS and GPL. It's the same amount of time it would
take to drive over 600 real F1 races. The names you see in the hotlap charts of
GPL also have around 1000 hours or more in racing sims. I dont think they are
there because the sucked the first time they tried a racing simulator, on the
contrary they noticed that this was something they were good at, in other words
they were talented. They pretty easy ended up on their first hotlap chart; N2,
GP2, ICR2, etc... but soon someone beat them, which forced them to put in
another couple of laps at the track. This is how they ended up with 1000 hours
or more in racing sims.
What I'm trying to say is that I believe all these sim racers are talented in
working a steering wheel, two pedals and a gear changer, and setting up the car.
In the hotlap charts of GPL we find drivers who were fastest in N2, ICR2 and
GP2. This is of course not a coincidence. They are talented drivers with a lot
of practice behind them.
The drivers who raced back in 1967 was born in the 30's and grew up during the
40's and 50's. How many people do you think had the possibility to test if they
were a talented racing driver in the 40's and the 50's? Compare that to how many
people who have the possibility to test there talent in racing sims today. How
many Thrustmaster steering wheels has been sold? I know N2 sold around 2 million
copies and GP2 around 1 million.
Is GPL too difficult? I dont think it was that hard driving straight at 300 kph
at Monza back then as it is in GPL. I dont think it was that hard to brake
consistently lap after lap, as it is in GPL. I dont think it was that hard to
feel what the car was doing back then as it is in GPL. I know we have a 2D
picture and no g-forces, whereas they had both 3D and g-forces, but this only
means that we need more feedback to make the experience as difficult as in real
life. Any programmer can make a racing sim too hard, even impossible, or make it
too easy making it an arcade (easier than it really is), but very few can make
it just right. I think Papy made it too hard.
Is GPL too unrealistic? I think it's unrealisticly hard to drive in GPL as you
probably already figured out :o). I also think the AI is a bit unrealistic. I've
been starting to fiddle with the npt_override in gpl_ai.ini and when I set it
too 1.0 Mr Clark are always qualifying in the low 1:29's. I've done a couple of
laps in the Ferrari and also studied the other AI's driving the Ferrari. I can
only do around 305 - 306 kph in the Ferrari on the straights, but the AI are
hitting 312 every time, so I'm guessing they must have a more powerful engine
than mine, thus unrealistic. They also almost always outbrake me into the first
Lesmo and Parabolica, they probably have better brakes. If I brake perfectly I
can brake as good as they, but never better, not when the npt_override is at 1.0
anyway. I also see them do some fast side to side movements on the straights and
in corners that I cant possibly do without loosing the rear and I have my cars
as far from oversteer as possible.
Papyrus has their physics engine running at around 300 Hz, thus they are
sampling the reality 300 times per second. Imagine recording sound with a
sampling frequency at 300 Hz :o). The comparison is not completely fair, but I'm
hoping it puts a finger on a little problem. When sampling you miss information.
The problem here is that you have to dampening your physics engine no matter how
fast it's running. This dampening is probably a science in itself, thus very
hard to get right. I dont think Papy got it quite right.
/Christer, the blesphamer :o)
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Quoted text (56 lines)
> Hi all > My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've tried to > put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I > like GPL really <g>. > I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed: > - is GPL realistic > - is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough) > I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book > by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing > in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss > turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting > in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the > race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either > professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable > speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss! > Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some > were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the > hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise. > Hence my argument that it's not realistic. > Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>. > Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be > able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or even come > close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has > failed IMO. > Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated > drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they > can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't > believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several > years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of > people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense. > Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically > said: > - I'm not good enough > - I need to practise more > - I want to play an arcade game > - I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I drive around > None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's > not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is > that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK > to drive - but few have taken this line. > Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find > GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by > making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next > products will be that much better as a result <g>.On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:26:22 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
Also, includied with the game is a replay (for each track) of one
of the Papyrus crew taking a hot lap. Study these for tips on corner
speeds, braking points, etc. (you won't match them, but they are a
good start).
NAR Northeast Regional Contest Board site - points and more...
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Thanks - I wondered how to go about adjusting the .ini files. I'll give it a >go - at the moment I'm hopelessly off the pace at a few tracks, eg Monaco, >which I can hardly get round at all! >In the practises I do generally try and follow another car for a few laps - >this is a good way to learn how much to brake. It usually ends in tears >though, not to mention the fire and ***.Warning, long rambling road ahead! :)
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:09:55 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Fair enough, but you're comparing apples and oranges. In the first
paragraph, you talk about Moss's (un)familiarity with *a circuit*. In
the second, you are talking about our (un)familiarity with the GPL
game engine (our "car"). Moss had plenty of time in his car, and was
intimately familiar with it. After that, learning a new circuit was a
relatively easy process.
In GPL, you have to learn how to drive the car, from square one.
While it's like a real car, the differences between reality and sim
(lack of physical feedback) and the different performance envelope
(400 hp, minimal weight, and inefficient tires) make it a far
different experience from what most people are used to in real life.
And if you want to compare it to the 900 HP, infinite downforce,
cornering-on-rails, braking-on-a-dime CART or F1 car sims of today,
its even more different.
Considering this is a first cut at NASCAR3 (Papyrus's cash cow), it
does make economic sense. The feedback from GPL with be helpful in
shaping N3. And, between what we've heard here and the
super-simplistic arcade mode of N2, N3 had *better* have some sort of
arcade mode to please the masses. But that not who's buying GPL (or
even the target market) in the first place.
Spoken like true die-hards. :)
OK, Lawrence, so how many hours *do* you have on the track? What
background do you have with auto sims?
I'm not asking to see who has the biggest... I'm asking because
its pertinent to your GPL experience thus far (and the questions it
raises).
For me, I've driven auto sims for close to five years and I prefer
Papyrus's offerings in the genre. I'm a bit rusty (I haven't driven
much in the past year or two, none at all over the summer). I bought
GPL the day it came out and upgraded my computer to enjoy it to the
fullest (hmmm, $750 to play a $35 game... yup, hardcore! :). I found
GPL difficult and challenging at first (but drivable). After about
15-20 hours, I started to really get a feel for the cars and can throw
them around some of the circuits pretty well now (one of my better
times is 1:07.5 at Watkins Glen in the default Eagle, for instance).
In fact, I find GPL to be one of the most *natural to drive* sims I've
seen yet (I'd almost say "easiest to drive" if you wouldn't throw
tomatos at me :).
So how does your experience with GPL compare? How many hours have
you put into it? And think about how many hours you will be putting
into it, in the months ahead. GPL is definitely not instant
gratification, but it can offer great satisfaction.
What control device are you using? The keyboard is pointless,
joysticks work for some (like me), wheels and pedals are prefered by
many.
Are you keeping the frame rate high (over 30)? If you run at a
lower frame rate, controlability becomes a problem.
If your problem is keeping it on the track, practice with the lower
level trainers. The lowest has ~200 HP and very low grip and is good
for learning to deal with engine torque and cornering. The advanced
trainer has similar HP with better tire grip, so its good for a taste
of higher speed cornering.
I haven't used traction control or ABS, but I would assume it would
make the sim *very* drivable. Are you using those? Auto-shifting
(which I *do* use) also has its disadvantages, as it revs high (torque
problems in 1st and 2nd) and seems to like to shift at the most
inopportune times (ie: while cornering). :) Manual shifting can help
controlability in such cases.
And if it makes you feel any better, I too have trouble sometimes
keeping it on the track. As you gain experience, you will see that
the car is actually very forgiving (far more than other sims with
radial tires and high downforce) *if you only exceed its limits by a
small margin*. As a novice, you far exceed the limits, and fly off
the track as a result. With increased experience, you learn the
limits, and learn how to tip-toe around them.
Another factor with keeping it on the track is driving at your own
pace, not over your head. I can't count the number of times I've
struggled to make a pass (for instance, at Rouen against similar-speed
AI cars) only to fly off the road when I over-cook the next turn.
If your problem is that you want to run competitively with other
cars, there are many ways to tweak the games or its AI. You can set
up a new driver profile to race in the trainer classes. You can
change the AI speeds at each specific track. Of course, altering the
AI will result in non-optimal racing, which is one reason why Papyrus
did not support this from the start. But its better than nothing.
For me, my favorite fix is simply reversing the order of the AI
drivers, so the first drivers selected are the poorest. The nice
thing about this fix is that you can simply increase the field size,
to include better and better drivers, as your skills improve (and
you're not altering the AI at all). Search Deja News or the GPL web
sites for more info.
Stick to one car (the Eagle is very stable for me, and I'm still
using the defult set-ups) and to one track (Monza or perhaps Watkins
Glen) while learning. Once you get around to learning new tracks,
print out the track map for reference and use the included replays to
learn corner speeds, braking points, etc.
Using all of these options available to us, I can't see how GPL
*could* be made any easier, aside from a totally unrealistic arcade
game that "looks like" GPL (ie, the arcade mode of N2).
Just as an aside, I've had the game for 5 weeks, probably played an
hour or two per day, and I've only driven one car and learned four or
five tracks (well enough to run mid-pack in a novice race) and haven't
hardly fooled with set-ups at all yet. That gives you some idea of
the depth of the sim...
>None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's
>not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is
>that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK
>to drive - but few have taken this line.
Is it not selling well? Any hard data? My latest CompUSA flyer
says its a "best seller". :) Seriously, my impression is that it is
meeting expectations.
>Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find
>GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by
>making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next
>products will be that much better as a result <g>.
I guess the difficulty question all depends on your perspective.
Difficult, yes. *Too* difficult???...
There are *tons* of other sims out there that are easier and can
provide enjoyment. There's only one GPL, and we diehards are most
thankful for it. It may not satisfy the masses, but the depth of the
sim and the time spent developing the skills is part of our enjoyment.
Forgive him for he knows not what he is missing... :)
Jeff Vincent - [email hidden] - www.wizvax.net/jvincent/nercb.html
NAR Northeast Regional Contest Board site - points and more...
Quoted text (13 lines)
>I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book >by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing >in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss >turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting >in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the >race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either >professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable >speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss! >Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some >were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the >hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise. >Hence my argument that it's not realistic.Quoted text (13 lines)
>Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>. >Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be >able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or even come >close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has >failed IMO. >Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated >drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they >can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't >believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several >years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of >people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense.Quoted text (7 lines)
>Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically >said: >- I'm not good enough >- I need to practise more >- I want to play an arcade game >- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I drive aroundLawrence
The simple fact is that I and many others have found GPL to be an immensely
satisfying experience. Some of us have raced cars, some haven't. I raced
(by very happy coincidence!) a 1967 F3 car in Monoposto and saloons in
Production Saloons in the early 70's but if you think that I'm lying go talk
to Alison Hine, whose excellent "Eagle Woman" web site has been so much help
to so many people, who has recent experience in single seater racing in the
US and who was a very active member of the beta testing team and let her
explain just how realistic GPL is.
But then maybe everyone is lying to you. Maybe GPL is unrealistically
difficult. If that's the case, then there are more than a few people
delivering competitive times in GPL who could have given Jim Clark, Dan
Gurney, Lorenzo Bandini et al a very hard time. Well maybe but I don't think
so.
In the end, the loser is you. Continue to insist that it's the game not you
that's at fault and you'll learn nothing and miss out on one of the great
sim experiences. Take the time to learn and it'll be you taking that
chequered flag.
John Klemantaski
possibly
>>misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite unwarranted
>>conclusions.
Quoted text (9 lines)
>You're right, I haven't driven a single seater. I would be interested to >know if you have? If you have driven in a 1960's formula 1 car in a race >then OK, you would be in a better position to judge...... >>I imagine you haven't driven anything with >>400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed >>anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read andHi John
Why doesn't it cater for both? Does is have to be one or the other?
I would think people who believe they should have to wait 48 hours after
every crash are very very rare.
If Sierra adopt that approach they'll be bust in a few weeks - that's why. I
know you don't want Sierra to go bust.
I think you'll find that all mass market flight sims have numerous options
to allow beginners to enjoy them more easily - using reduced flight models,
'quick flight' etc. etc.
You don't work in customer services by any chance <g>? Seriously, I hope you
didn't adopt this approach when you were beta testing GPL.
Hi John
I'm not "in haste to convince myself" and I don't see why you feel it
necessary to preface your reply with that. I'm just trying to conduct an
interesting thread in a civilized manner.
I would argue that people with limited racing experience are 'dropped into
F1 cars' - take the Goodward Festival of Speed for example (or whatever it's
called). They manage to get round Goodward (a very difficult circuit by all
accounts) without killing themselves.
I agree that Jim Clark (like Stirling Moss) was exceptional. He won 4
Formula 1 races aged 25 and the world title aged 26! I was making the point
that, compared to today, progression was relatively quick.
Misses the mark for me - again a personal preference, not an objective
statement of fact. Please remember that I honestly don't want to spoil it
for others.
Hi Jeff
Jeff Vincent wrote in message <[email hidden]>...
>Warning, long rambling road ahead! :)
I like long rambling roads, not the ones in GPL though <VBG>.
I'm going to clip a lot of your original reply - otherwise this message will
become a small novel....
> Fair enough, but you're comparing apples and oranges. In the first
>paragraph, you talk about Moss's (un)familiarity with *a circuit*. In
>the second, you are talking about our (un)familiarity with the GPL
>game engine (our "car"). Moss had plenty of time in his car, and was
>intimately familiar with it. After that, learning a new circuit was a
>relatively easy process.
Please define "plenty", Moss had very limited experience of many of the cars
he drove. He changed teams several times during his relatively short career.
True, he did an awful lot of driving from age 14, but he is famous for his
versatility. He could get in an unfamiliar car and drive fast - that is why
he's one of the best IMO. Moss was definitely, unquestionably, often
unfamiliar with the car and the circuit or course.
> Considering this is a first cut at NASCAR3 (Papyrus's cash cow), it
>does make economic sense. The feedback from GPL with be helpful in
>shaping N3. And, between what we've heard here and the
>super-simplistic arcade mode of N2, N3 had *better* have some sort of
>arcade mode to please the masses. But that not who's buying GPL (or
>even the target market) in the first place.
I am providing feedback - and trying to back it up with sensible arguments.
I see where you're coming from - although I personally reckon that Sierra
were trying to make and market a product which would be a "big seller". I
suppose we shall never know unless someone "in the know" puts us right.
around
> Spoken like true die-hards. :)
I forgot the condescending "you don't have a clue" / "nonsense" response as
well <g>
Phew, big breath.... <g>
I'll try and answer as many of those questions as possible.
I first started driving racing games/sims in about 1981 - with Revs, written
by Geoff Crammond for the BBC computer. I haven't stopped since. I have no
idea how many hours I've spent, but I bought GP2 on the day it came out and
have been racing off-line in a Compuserve forum for a couple of years. I
probably have in excess of 1000? hours on GP2.
I have also driven Nascar a quite a lot (say 100 hours - admittedly a few
years ago now), Nascar2 a little, but only the demo of ICR2. I like flight
sims, MS Flight Simulator, Flight Unlimited II and EF2000 are probably the 3
I fly most.
In GP2 my times aren't the best, but they're not too bad either - but then
hopefully this discussion isn't an I'm better than you one <g>. I recognize
that GP2 is a very different kettle of fish from GPL.
I bought GPL on 25 October. I've had the demo for a long time, but only put
in say 20 hours because I found it so difficult and people in this forum
assured me the full game would be easier. I've put in about 20 hours of seat
time in the full version so far, although I often leave it after a while in
dispair....
I'm running a PII400 with 12MB Voodoo2, with frame rates over 30 at almost
all times.
I use a GP500 wheel and pedals from Interactive Racing. I've had the
recentering mechanism modified so if anyone else is reading this please
don't flame me about this being a bad wheel - it's not.
I've never driven a single seater, although I've been carting a few times.
Each time in carting I've reached the final and once I won with fastest lap.
I'm not totally lame behind the wheel.
I've not "read and misinterpreted" one book, unlike what one respondent in
this forum implied. I've read Ayrton Senna's book, Jackie Stewart's book and
been a subscriber to F1 Racing and various other driving related magazines
etc over the years. I like F1 a lot - although Bernie Ecclestone is slowly
changing that.
> Is it not selling well? Any hard data? My latest CompUSA flyer
>says its a "best seller". :) Seriously, my impression is that it is
>meeting expectations.
Judging by the various charts posted on the net it is well down the list
already. I even saw it at 92 in one chart of PC software for last week. I'll
admit that I don't have concrete evidence one way or the other.
> There are *tons* of other sims out there that are easier and can
>provide enjoyment. There's only one GPL, and we diehards are most
>thankful for it. It may not satisfy the masses, but the depth of the
>sim and the time spent developing the skills is part of our enjoyment.
>Forgive him for he knows not what he is missing... :)
This isn't the point though is it. I like GPL, it has some really fantastic
features - I love the era and the driving model is more sophisticated than
any other sim. My argument is that it is very difficult without enough
options to make it easier. Giving an option which would allow easier races
would not be difficult and should have been done IMO. I also think that.
fundamentally, it's too difficult to be realistic.
Thanks for your other suggestions - all of which are eminently sensible IMO.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically >>said: >>- I'm not good enough >>- I need to practise more >>- I want to play an arcade game >>- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I driveQuoted text (86 lines)
> OK, Lawrence, so how many hours *do* you have on the track? What >background do you have with auto sims? > I'm not asking to see who has the biggest... I'm asking because >its pertinent to your GPL experience thus far (and the questions it >raises). > For me, I've driven auto sims for close to five years and I prefer >Papyrus's offerings in the genre. I'm a bit rusty (I haven't driven >much in the past year or two, none at all over the summer). I bought >GPL the day it came out and upgraded my computer to enjoy it to the >fullest (hmmm, $750 to play a $35 game... yup, hardcore! :). I found >GPL difficult and challenging at first (but drivable). After about >15-20 hours, I started to really get a feel for the cars and can throw >them around some of the circuits pretty well now (one of my better >times is 1:07.5 at Watkins Glen in the default Eagle, for instance). >In fact, I find GPL to be one of the most *natural to drive* sims I've >seen yet (I'd almost say "easiest to drive" if you wouldn't throw >tomatos at me :). > So how does your experience with GPL compare? How many hours have >you put into it? And think about how many hours you will be putting >into it, in the months ahead. GPL is definitely not instant >gratification, but it can offer great satisfaction. > What control device are you using? The keyboard is pointless, >joysticks work for some (like me), wheels and pedals are prefered by >many. > Are you keeping the frame rate high (over 30)? If you run at a >lower frame rate, controlability becomes a problem. > If your problem is keeping it on the track, practice with the lower >level trainers. The lowest has ~200 HP and very low grip and is good >for learning to deal with engine torque and cornering. The advanced >trainer has similar HP with better tire grip, so its good for a taste >of higher speed cornering. > I haven't used traction control or ABS, but I would assume it would >make the sim *very* drivable. Are you using those? Auto-shifting >(which I *do* use) also has its disadvantages, as it revs high (torque >problems in 1st and 2nd) and seems to like to shift at the most >inopportune times (ie: while cornering). :) Manual shifting can help >controlability in such cases. > And if it makes you feel any better, I too have trouble sometimes >keeping it on the track. As you gain experience, you will see that >the car is actually very forgiving (far more than other sims with >radial tires and high downforce) *if you only exceed its limits by a >small margin*. As a novice, you far exceed the limits, and fly off >the track as a result. With increased experience, you learn the >limits, and learn how to tip-toe around them. > Another factor with keeping it on the track is driving at your own >pace, not over your head. I can't count the number of times I've >struggled to make a pass (for instance, at Rouen against similar-speed >AI cars) only to fly off the road when I over-cook the next turn. > If your problem is that you want to run competitively with other >cars, there are many ways to tweak the games or its AI. You can set >up a new driver profile to race in the trainer classes. You can >change the AI speeds at each specific track. Of course, altering the >AI will result in non-optimal racing, which is one reason why Papyrus >did not support this from the start. But its better than nothing. >For me, my favorite fix is simply reversing the order of the AI >drivers, so the first drivers selected are the poorest. The nice >thing about this fix is that you can simply increase the field size, >to include better and better drivers, as your skills improve (and >you're not altering the AI at all). Search Deja News or the GPL web >sites for more info. > Stick to one car (the Eagle is very stable for me, and I'm still >using the defult set-ups) and to one track (Monza or perhaps Watkins >Glen) while learning. Once you get around to learning new tracks, >print out the track map for reference and use the included replays to >learn corner speeds, braking points, etc. > Using all of these options available to us, I can't see how GPL >*could* be made any easier, aside from a totally unrealistic arcade >game that "looks like" GPL (ie, the arcade mode of N2). > Just as an aside, I've had the game for 5 weeks, probably played an >hour or two per day, and I've only driven one car and learned four or >five tracks (well enough to run mid-pack in a novice race) and haven't >hardly fooled with set-ups at all yet. That gives you some idea of >the depth of the sim...Hi Christer
It would seem that critisizing GPL in this NG isn't just blasphemy, it's
heresy.
>Lawrence, how dare you, GPL is still a religion and will be for another couple
>of month or so :o).
>Seriously, I think GPL is too difficult and I think it is too unrealistic. I
>know this is blesphamy, but this is the beauty with NG's, even blesphamy is
>allowed :o). It's the good old freedom of speech thingy.
>My fastest at Monza is a 1:28.04 and it's with a Thrustmaster Formula 1 Pro,
>making me a stick shifter and not a very slow one :o). I have well over 1000
>hours in racing sim; GP2, F1RS and GPL. It's the same amount of time it would
>take to drive over 600 real F1 races. The names you see in the hotlap charts of
>GPL also have around 1000 hours or more in racing sims. I dont think they are
>there because the sucked the first time they tried a racing simulator, on the
>contrary they noticed that this was something they were good at, in other words
>they were talented. They pretty easy ended up on their first hotlap chart; N2,
>GP2, ICR2, etc... but soon someone beat them, which forced them to put in
>another couple of laps at the track. This is how they ended up with 1000 hours
>or more in racing sims.
>What I'm trying to say is that I believe all these sim racers are talented in
>working a steering wheel, two pedals and a gear changer, and setting up the car.
>In the hotlap charts of GPL we find drivers who were fastest in N2, ICR2 and
>GP2. This is of course not a coincidence. They are talented drivers with a lot
>of practice behind them.
>The drivers who raced back in 1967 was born in the 30's and grew up during the
>40's and 50's. How many people do you think had the possibility to test if they
>were a talented racing driver in the 40's and the 50's? Compare that to how many
>people who have the possibility to test there talent in racing sims today. How
>many Thrustmaster steering wheels has been sold? I know N2 sold around 2 million
>copies and GP2 around 1 million.
>Is GPL too difficult? I dont think it was that hard driving straight at 300 kph
>at Monza back then as it is in GPL. I dont think it was that hard to brake
>consistently lap after lap, as it is in GPL. I dont think it was that hard to
>feel what the car was doing back then as it is in GPL. I know we have a 2D
>picture and no g-forces, whereas they had both 3D and g-forces, but this only
>means that we need more feedback to make the experience as difficult as in real
>life. Any programmer can make a racing sim too hard, even impossible, or make it
>too easy making it an arcade (easier than it really is), but very few can make
>it just right. I think Papy made it too hard.
>Is GPL too unrealistic? I think it's unrealisticly hard to drive in GPL as you
>probably already figured out :o). I also think the AI is a bit unrealistic. I've
>been starting to fiddle with the npt_override in gpl_ai.ini and when I set it
>too 1.0 Mr Clark are always qualifying in the low 1:29's. I've done a couple of
>laps in the Ferrari and also studied the other AI's driving the Ferrari. I can
>only do around 305 - 306 kph in the Ferrari on the straights, but the AI are
>hitting 312 every time, so I'm guessing they must have a more powerful engine
>than mine, thus unrealistic. They also almost always outbrake me into the first
>Lesmo and Parabolica, they probably have better brakes. If I brake perfectly I
>can brake as good as they, but never better, not when the npt_override is at 1.0
>anyway. I also see them do some fast side to side movements on the straights and
>in corners that I cant possibly do without loosing the rear and I have my cars
>as far from oversteer as possible.
>Papyrus has their physics engine running at around 300 Hz, thus they are
>sampling the reality 300 times per second. Imagine recording sound with a
>sampling frequency at 300 Hz :o). The comparison is not completely fair, but I'm
>hoping it puts a finger on a little problem. When sampling you miss information.
>The problem here is that you have to dampening your physics engine no matter how
>fast it's running. This dampening is probably a science in itself, thus very
to
>> put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I
>> like GPL really <g>.
>> I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed:
>> - is GPL realistic
>> - is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough)
>> I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book
>> by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing
>> in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss
>> turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting
>> in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the
>> race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either
>> professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable
>> speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss!
>> Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some
>> were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the
>> hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise.
>> Hence my argument that it's not realistic.
>> Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>.
>> Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be
>> able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or even come
>> close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has
>> failed IMO.
>> Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated
>> drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they
>> can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't
>> believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several
>> years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of
around
>> None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's
>> not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is
>> that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK
>> to drive - but few have taken this line.
>> Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find
>> GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by
>> making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next
>> products will be that much better as a result <g>.
>--
>http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
>racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
>has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Quoted text (10 lines)
>hard to get right. I dont think Papy got it quite right. >/Christer, the blesphamer :o) >> Hi all >> My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've triedQuoted text (9 lines)
>> people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense. >> Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically >> said: >> - I'm not good enough >> - I need to practise more >> - I want to play an arcade game >> - I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I driveIn the opposite direction I'm really really annoyed that my copy of
Micro Machines doesn't have an option to implement super realistic
physics :)
Joking Aside, I can see where you're coming from in this post but the
simple fact is that Papy made GPL the way it is so that ***
simmmers could enjoy it to its fullest. There are many other games for
the less serious driver to enjoy so really the only option is to either
go and play those or sit there and learn how to handle a GPL car. I know
you've heard this a million times before but take the time to learn it
and you will be rewarded immensely. There's no "quick fix".
And at the risk of being flamed :)
Yes, GPL does have some faults. There are several things I and others
would like to see addressed.
But in the meantime GPL is still the finest -SIM- there is!
Cheers!
--
Graeme Nash
You know what to do with "don't_spam_me"...
http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk/
ICQ# 11257824
"!?! :/><)*^!!! - Bandini killed me again!"
Perfect, you have hands-on experience and you dont seem to be religious about
GPL. Is the GP car in GPL as hard to drive as the '67 F3 car you drove or is it
harder? Was it really that hard to go straight back then? Was it that hard to
brake consistently? Was it that hard to survive a jump?
/Christer, 1:28.04 at Monza and a curious little fellow, isnt' he :o)?
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Quoted text (38 lines)
> Lawrence > The simple fact is that I and many others have found GPL to be an immensely > satisfying experience. Some of us have raced cars, some haven't. I raced > (by very happy coincidence!) a 1967 F3 car in Monoposto and saloons in > Production Saloons in the early 70's but if you think that I'm lying go talk > to Alison Hine, whose excellent "Eagle Woman" web site has been so much help > to so many people, who has recent experience in single seater racing in the > US and who was a very active member of the beta testing team and let her > explain just how realistic GPL is. > But then maybe everyone is lying to you. Maybe GPL is unrealistically > difficult. If that's the case, then there are more than a few people > delivering competitive times in GPL who could have given Jim Clark, Dan > Gurney, Lorenzo Bandini et al a very hard time. Well maybe but I don't think > so. > In the end, the loser is you. Continue to insist that it's the game not you > that's at fault and you'll learn nothing and miss out on one of the great > sim experiences. Take the time to learn and it'll be you taking that > chequered flag. > John Klemantaski > >You're right, I haven't driven a single seater. I would be interested to > >know if you have? If you have driven in a 1960's formula 1 car in a race > >then OK, you would be in a better position to judge...... > >>I imagine you haven't driven anything with > >>400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed > >>anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and > possibly > >>misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite unwarranted > >>conclusions.On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:18:38 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
>Why doesn't it cater for both? Does is have to be one or the other?
It doesn't _have_ to be one or the other, it just "is". You are the
one having trouble accepting that, not I.
Another unmarried marriage guidance councillor? :-) I'm sure
Sierra/Papyrus know that better than we do, so I tend toward enjoying
the results and allowing them to make their own business decisions,
right or wrong. Such choices are better backed up by fact rather than
opinion.
Not all, and even those that do will not have enough to cater for me -
the swine, eh?
Why, because such an approach doesn't agree with your opinion?
Seriously, look at all the people that are enjoying GPL and you will
see that Papyrus have created a true milestone, whether or not it
tickles your joy department. If GPL was right for you it would be
wrong for someone else, and if that sounds like "customer service"
doubletalk then welcome to the world because it's a fact.
Personally I think GPL is a long way from perfect, but I also think it
is by far the best simulation we have seen on the PC. If you aske me
what I would do to change it you'll be disappointed to hear that I
think arcade fans have enough going for them already, and I'd prefer
to see GPL having proper high frequency bumps on the track, modelling
of a racing line, brake fade and wear, further development of
cumulative damage and the like. There are many, many arcade racers on
the PC which those who don't want a sim can go crazy in - why dumb
down the proper sims? The ideal would be to have "one size fits all",
but until that unlikely turn of affairs comes around it's surely
better to supply the different strokes?
Cheers!
John
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:19:53 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
>I would argue that people with limited racing experience are 'dropped into
>F1 cars' - take the Goodward Festival of Speed for example (or whatever it's
>called). They manage to get round Goodward (a very difficult circuit by all
>accounts) without killing themselves.
As can anyone in GPL - the difference being the lack of concern about
whether an afterlife exists and if they will shortly be entering it.
The Top Gear presenter managed to hop into an F1 car and get round a
circuit, as did Simon Taylor, albeit about 15 seconds per lap slower
than Satoru Nakamjima...
Cheers!
John
It takes tonnes of patience, and tonnes of practice. I have every sim that
Papyrus has ever put out. And up until I go GPL I was always able to do
well, and win races with a Joystick. No can do with GPL. You have to have
some type of throttle and braking that isn't ON or OFF (like a button on a
joystick). I have been able to do better (and have fun) with the Wheel and
Pedals.
Dean
racing
come
around
>None of these answer my criticism. GPL is too difficult and that is why it's
>not selling well, IMO. The only counter to my criticsm that I can see is
>that, it's not too difficult, most people find the difficulty level to be OK
>to drive - but few have taken this line.
>Please don't get me wrong, I love GPL and have played it a lot. But I find
>GPL too frustrating, the people who produced it have scored an own goal by
>making it too difficult. Let's hope they learn from this and the next
>products will be that much better as a result <g>.
Quoted text (13 lines)
>Hi all >My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've tried to >put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I >like GPL really <g>. >I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed: >- is GPL realistic >- is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough) >I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book >by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss wasQuoted text (16 lines)
>in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss >turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting >in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the >race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either >professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable >speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss! >Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some >were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the >hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise. >Hence my argument that it's not realistic. >Now, on to the 'is it too difficult' argument <g>. >Please try and put yourself in the position of most people - who want to be >able to get in the car and have a fun race. OK, so we won't win or evenQuoted text (17 lines)
>close to it, but we *must* be able to enjoy ourselves or else the game has >failed IMO. >Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated >drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they >can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't >believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several >years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of >people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense. >Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically >said: >- I'm not good enough >- I need to practise more >- I want to play an arcade game >- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I driveI did all the tracks quite a bit, but mexico. Fired up an on-line race with
an hour practice and finished 2nd of 6-7 people. But then again they didn't
know the track well either but I got the hang of it pretty quick because I'd
already learned the car.
but if you think that I'm lying go talk
Alison said the same things last year about F1RS.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>Most of the responses I've received from my original post have basically >>said: >>- I'm not good enough >>- I need to practise more >>- I want to play an arcade game >>- I need to focus more and stop looking at the countryside as I driveI believe Dave Kaemmer uses a joystick and also other Papyrus employees.
Some of the fastest GPL drivers are using a joystick as well.
David G Fisher
Quoted text (7 lines)
>And up until I go GPL I was always able to do >well, and win races with a Joystick. No can do with GPL. You have to have >some type of throttle and braking that isn't ON or OFF (like a button on a >joystick). I have been able to do better (and have fun) with the Wheel and >Pedals. >DeanQuoted text (24 lines)
> Hi all > My initial criticism was admittedly provocatively worded, so I've tried to > put together a more thoughtful argument. Please don't flame me because I > like GPL really <g>. > I suppose there are 2 points about difficulty which keep getting discussed: > - is GPL realistic > - is it too difficult (no option to make it easy enough) > I know it's a slightly different era, but I've just finished reading a book > by Alf Francis, who was Sterling Moss's racing mechanic when Moss was racing > in the early fifties. Several times in the book Francis talks about Moss > turning up at a circuit - which he had never raced on before - and putting > in very decent lap times - and then going on to put up a good show at the > race. Lots of the other drivers who toured the circuits either > professionally or paying for their own drives could get round at reasonable > speeds, though obviously not quite as well as Moss! > Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some > were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the > hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise. > Hence my argument that it's not realistic.On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:17:32 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
I haven't read the book, or know much about Moss, so I can't cite
specifics. However, I think the cars that he drove were, in general,
more similar and familiar than someone driving GPL the first time. A
more apt analogy might be between the different cars of GPL, once you
become comfortable with one.
No matter how good GPL or N3 are, N3 is going to sell a lot more
copies on the strength of the NASCAR name. GPL just won't show up on
the radar for a lot of NASCAR fans. So this did give them some
latitude in how they did the sim.
<much clipped>
<sim racing credentials established>
So you know racing sims, that's not the problem. The only thing
that caught my eye in your resume is your extensive experience in GP2
and relative lack of same in Papyrus sims. One factor in your
problems with GPL might be a lack of familiarity with Papyrus sims.
I'm the opposite way, I've driven a lot of Papyrus sims and other sims
(GP1, GP2, MS C:PR) have never felt as comfortable for me. That may
be just a personal bias, or it may be true of others as well.
I only drove the demo a little as well, mostly because I had other
things to do this summer. I had three impressions from it:
1. This is going to be challenging (or "hard" or "difficult"),
2. This is going to be GREAT!, and
3. I'm going to need to upgrade my PC. :)
I drove the demo a bit again when the Monza track was released.
With the full release, it did seem easier to drive (and faster times),
most likely due to better setups.
<clip hardware credentials>
Your hardware's not a problem.
Is that Jackie Stewart's "Faster"? I dug out my old paperback copy
and read it this summer. A bit overwrought at times, but a good look
at the human side of drivers of the time.
From what I've heard on RAS, not a lot of people take advantage of
the trainers. Even when they can be used in races (which is fairly
common knowledge here). So would it have paid dividends for Papyrus
to put more time into these trainers (or other aids)? We may never
know. They had to decide where to put their resources, and their
choice was to concentrate on the GP end, and let the user find his own
means to get there.
After running GPL for 10 days or so, I felt I had hit a wall at
Monza; my times had plateaued around 1:34.0. But I kept at it. And,
I'm not sure from where, but I started picking up speed, so now I'm
running in the 1:31s. (I think it was becoming more comfortable with
sliding the car in a controlled manner and attacking the Lesmos2 and
Parabolica exits more agressively, for what its worth.)
Practice matters. It varies for everyone, some pick it up quickly
(like Sterling Moss) and others take longer. I would guess that you
are on the verge of the sort of "breakthrough" I described above. All
I can tell you is to keep at it. Stick with one car and one track, so
you limit what you have to learn. Drive within your limits, gradually
expanding your personal envelope. Download replays and try racing
online to see how other human drivers cope (remember, the vast
majority of online humans are inferior to the AI drivers :). Tweak
the AI as necessary to create races to keep you interested. Hopefully
in a few weeks you'll come back and tell us you've turned the corner.
And this thread has made some people think a bit. Keep this up and
they'll throw us both out of here. :)
NAR Northeast Regional Contest Board site - points and more...
Quoted text (10 lines)
>>Moss had plenty of time in his car, and was >>intimately familiar with it. After that, learning a new circuit was a >>relatively easy process. >Please define "plenty", Moss had very limited experience of many of the cars >he drove. He changed teams several times during his relatively short career. >True, he did an awful lot of driving from age 14, but he is famous for his >versatility. He could get in an unfamiliar car and drive fast - that is why >he's one of the best IMO. Moss was definitely, unquestionably, often >unfamiliar with the car and the circuit or course.What a man does in the privacy of his own home is... hang on, which NG are we in? S'cuse me while I
just slip out of this leather gear.
That's better. I think for me the bottom line is I'm willing to forgive Papyrus *anything* for giving me such
an incredible driving experience. There are things I'd "like", for instance I'd love a shift-r equivalent to
restart a race (as in previous Papyrus sims), but while I'm going through the screens to restart I use the
time to beat some sense into my head... "You *will* avoid the AI cars, you *will* take it easy on the 1st
lap, etc etc etc". There are other annoyances, but nothing in life's perfect :-)
Ah, could I agree with. Should? I just buy the software, it's not for me to dictate the rules. This
"customer is always right" thing has gone way too far in society. I'd have paid 100ukp for this, some
wouldn't pay 5. Horses for courses.
Bet I'm not! :-)) I just think it's *my* fault I don't finish, not Papyrus's. That sounds harsh, but it's true. I
wouldn't dream of blaming Mindscape/Eagle Dynamics because I'm scraping along the bottom of the
Flanker ladder. I love flying their plane, I'm just no good at it!
Not at all, we're both on the same side. I just think the thing that makes GPL a unique and distinctive
product in an overloaded market place is what some don't want to face up to. I'm torn between saying
Papyrus should do what they do best, and saying they should make as much money as possible.
Depends what their goals are. All you can say at the moment is they've developed a strong user base
which is guaranteed to support them in their simulation strategy. That's quite an asset in a volatile
market. There's also something to be said for writing the sims that everyone *wants* to be able to drive
whether they can or not with any degree of success.
I suspect GPL will sell more copies in the UK than Nascar or ICR1/2. Don't quote me on that though! This
may mean it can be a relative success without breaking records.
Another of my problems is that I have a rough grasp of what's involved in games programming. A simple
option is only a simple option on paper. Working it into the main code, debugging, beta testing, all adds
time. Maybe there'll be a patch for some of this stuff. Maybe not. I'm just happy I can drive the sim now,
not q199!
Good point... mind you, I've never tried so I didn't realise it wasn't possible. I'd rather be bottom of
Division One then top of Division 2 ;-)
Andrew McP... enjoying the challenge of climbing Everest, not jumping on the ski-lift ;-)
I find stuff like this very frustrating. I don't see anyone being religious about this thing. What I see is lots
of people getting *really* enthusiastic about something which has genuinely revolutionised their racing
sim experience. No-one should have to apologise for that, and for wanting to pass on that enthusiasm,
to help others accept GPL's limits and reach for them instead of worrying about what might have been.
Sure you can make religious comparisons if you want, but that's to fall back on old cliches when you
should be out there learning to drive :-)
Andrew "Job's Comforter" McP
On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:09:55 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards"
>>>>....Are you suggesting that GPL was aimed only at the very skilfull, dedicated
>drivers who are prepared to put in scores of hours of practise before they
>can do a decent full lap? This is not how it was marketed. I simply don't
>believe this. Why would everybody have put in so much effort over several
>years at huge expense to produce a product which only a relative handful of
>people will enjoy? Surely that doesn't make sense.
You're right in a way.
But, Grand Prix 2 is still a very tough sim to win consistently, at
least in "Expert Mode".
Otoh, GP2 has five A/I settings, from Rookie, to Ace. Ace is very
tough. Rookie is very easy.
Why GPL didn't bother to include this type of option, I'll never
know. It would have been -very- easy to do, as witnessed by the A/I
tweaks that already can be downloaded (it's easy to slow the A/I cars
down). GPL should also have included a simple "save-game" feature too.
Yes it's tough, GPL takes practice. But, A/I difficulty could
-easily- be added to GPL (via patch). They also could make the
driver-car stick like glue, or slide all over the place.
No need to wait for the next product. A fairly simple patch is
needed, that's all.
Options, what a concept..<g>.
Matt
-Teehole
Quote: "Many games create the ultimate technological experience, but falter
when it comes to creating a compelling story to keep gamers interested".<<
Author:Tim Royal,Computer Games Strategy Plus.
I think he just wants attention! I'm amazed at the patience that so many
people have showed when replying to him.Re your questions, I have to
extrapolate to answer them. My F3 Macon had around 150bhp rather than 400 -
top speed was around 130 mph not 190 so we're dealing with something very
like one of the trainers. In general the answer is yes, by modern road car
standards it needed a very high level of input and concentration. The GPL
cars are actually relatively forgiving by virtue of their tyres. Early
slick-shod cars were pigs to drive because the chassis designs were
basically unchanged. They had much more grip but gave no warning when they
let go. Straight-line stability is always an issue where aerodynamics aren't
used correctly (or at all, as in 1967). In a single seater (or anything
built for the track) the effects are exaggerated by the lack of compliance
in the steering and suspension, making the car respond to every input. In a
road car you can be driving at 90 mph and probably move the steering wheel
two or three inches off centre without getting much in the way of response
because the *** bushes in the steering rack and those in the suspension
take up the slack. Not so in a race car. Back in the late '60s at 130mph or
so, things were twitchy and the GPL cars feel right to me bearing in mind
their much higher top speed. Braking consistency wasn't difficult - there
was always a marker point somewhere - but brake fade was a problem. I don't
know what you mean by "jump". Explain please.
Obviously there's an issue with the controllers that we all use. They don't
do a good job, particularly in as demanding environment as GPL (no feel at
all in the brake pedal) and you have to compensate for that. The biggest
issue though is that of people's expectations. People really do think that
they can jump into a Formula One car and be competitive within a couple of
days (or is that hours?). It's sad. Track driving is more different than
anyone who hasn't done it can possibly imagine. Nothing looks or feels the
way you thought it would and, from personal experience as a ***ager who
enjoyed power-sliding his parents' cars on the public roads and thought he
could step into a race car, it's chastening to find out just how slow you
really are at first. Then you start learning.
I have very fond memories of this period of racing. In 1968 I was taken to
the Grand Prix Drivers' Association showing of "Grand Prix" - which as you
might imagine made a BIG impression so I'm biased in that sense; but I spent
a lot of time at race tracks as spectator and competitor and, as much as any
game can, GPL has captured the driving experience of that era wonderfully.
Nice Monza time. You must send me your setup - I'm still in the high 28s.
John Klemantaski
>Perfect, you have hands-on experience and you dont seem to be religious about
>GPL. Is the GP car in GPL as hard to drive as the '67 F3 car you drove or is it
>harder? Was it really that hard to go straight back then? Was it that hard to
immensely
>> satisfying experience. Some of us have raced cars, some haven't. I raced
>> (by very happy coincidence!) a 1967 F3 car in Monoposto and saloons in
>> Production Saloons in the early 70's but if you think that I'm lying go talk
>> to Alison Hine, whose excellent "Eagle Woman" web site has been so much help
>> to so many people, who has recent experience in single seater racing in the
think
>> so.
>> In the end, the loser is you. Continue to insist that it's the game not you
unwarranted
>> >>conclusions.
>--
>[link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online
>racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
>has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Quoted text (10 lines)
>brake consistently? Was it that hard to survive a jump? >/Christer, 1:28.04 at Monza and a curious little fellow, isnt' he :o)? >> Lawrence >> The simple fact is that I and many others have found GPL to be anQuoted text (7 lines)
>> US and who was a very active member of the beta testing team and let her >> explain just how realistic GPL is. >> But then maybe everyone is lying to you. Maybe GPL is unrealistically >> difficult. If that's the case, then there are more than a few people >> delivering competitive times in GPL who could have given Jim Clark, Dan >> Gurney, Lorenzo Bandini et al a very hard time. Well maybe but I don'tQuoted text (19 lines)
>> that's at fault and you'll learn nothing and miss out on one of the great >> sim experiences. Take the time to learn and it'll be you taking that >> chequered flag. >> John Klemantaski >> >You're right, I haven't driven a single seater. I would be interested to >> >know if you have? If you have driven in a 1960's formula 1 car in a race >> >then OK, you would be in a better position to judge...... >> >>I imagine you haven't driven anything with >> >>400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed >> >>anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and >> possibly >> >>misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quiteQuoted text (7 lines)
>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:19:53 -0000, "Lawrence Edwards" >>I would argue that people with limited racing experience are 'dropped into >>F1 cars' - take the Goodward Festival of Speed for example (or whatever it's >>called). They manage to get round Goodward (a very difficult circuit by all >>accounts) without killing themselves.Hi John,
You're not a relation of the famous racing photographer Klemantaski are you?
That would be too much of a coincidence:-)
I agree with your analysis of the GPL cars - although having had a go in
single seater Formula cars, in real life it's much easier to position the
car within inches of the track edge - better peripheral vision I suppose.
- Michael
> Hi Christer
> It would seem that critisizing GPL in this NG isn't just blasphemy, it's
> heresy.
No, heresy is re-posting a BIG and silly post just to add another silly
sentence!
l8er
ronny
> >Lawrence, how dare you, GPL is still a religion and will be for another
--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!
On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 4:41 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
>What a man does in the privacy of his own home is...
>hang on, which NG are we in? S'cuse me while I
>just slip out of this leather gear.
>That's better. I think for me the bottom line...
Didn't you just say you were going to take off your bottom-line....?
:-)
Cheers!
John
>> Hi Christer
>> It would seem that critisizing GPL in this NG isn't just blasphemy, it's
>> heresy.
Lawerence,
i prefer to refer to it as GPL-nazism.
Z.
I like GPL and yes it is difficult. But, that's why it is my favorite
sim. Following the thread here, I should be complaining that NFS3 isn't
"realistic" enough and EA should add more difficulty to it, it's just to
damn arcadish! But, then I like NFS3, too. Just not as much as GPL.
If EA, wants me to enjoy NFS3 more and expect me to buy NFS4, they
better make it more realistic and harder to play. ;-)
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Michael
He's my uncle. No coincidence really; there are only three male Klemantaskis
in the world to the best of my knowledge - my father, his brother and I.
He's just published his autobiography which makes terrific reading if you're
into motor racing history - he and Peter Collins in a Ferrari at 170mph on
public roads in Italy (mid '50s Mille Miglia)! You just prayed that the
locals all remembered to keep out of the way.
As for positioning the car, I'm not sure what the problem is. It may be more
related to the quality of the steering controller and/or the lack of
feedback making it very hard to judge exactly how much lock to apply. You
can do a lot to alleviate the problem by juggling steering ratio and
steering linearity settings. I think that we can see what we need to to
place the car - which is not to say that the whole experience wouldn't be
much, much better with a wider field of vision. Perhaps lookleft/lookright
running on satellite monitors?
John Klemantaski
Great feedback, John. You'll find my setup and lap here -
http://www.bhmotorsports.com/gpl/hotlap/
and one spot at Mosport where the car leaves the track for a short moment, cause
you pass a crest at high speed. Was it as hard in real life jumping as it is in
GPL :o)?
From your post it seems as if braking in reality was easier than in GPL?
I really dont think there are sim racers thinking they can be competitive in an
F1 after a couple of days in one :o). I do believe that there are sim racers
thinking that given the same possibilities as for example Micheal Schumacher has
had in his life, they would be competitive :o).
/Christer
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Quoted text (110 lines)
> I think he just wants attention! I'm amazed at the patience that so many > people have showed when replying to him.Re your questions, I have to > extrapolate to answer them. My F3 Macon had around 150bhp rather than 400 - > top speed was around 130 mph not 190 so we're dealing with something very > like one of the trainers. In general the answer is yes, by modern road car > standards it needed a very high level of input and concentration. The GPL > cars are actually relatively forgiving by virtue of their tyres. Early > slick-shod cars were pigs to drive because the chassis designs were > basically unchanged. They had much more grip but gave no warning when they > let go. Straight-line stability is always an issue where aerodynamics aren't > used correctly (or at all, as in 1967). In a single seater (or anything > built for the track) the effects are exaggerated by the lack of compliance > in the steering and suspension, making the car respond to every input. In a > road car you can be driving at 90 mph and probably move the steering wheel > two or three inches off centre without getting much in the way of response > because the *** bushes in the steering rack and those in the suspension > take up the slack. Not so in a race car. Back in the late '60s at 130mph or > so, things were twitchy and the GPL cars feel right to me bearing in mind > their much higher top speed. Braking consistency wasn't difficult - there > was always a marker point somewhere - but brake fade was a problem. I don't > know what you mean by "jump". Explain please. > Obviously there's an issue with the controllers that we all use. They don't > do a good job, particularly in as demanding environment as GPL (no feel at > all in the brake pedal) and you have to compensate for that. The biggest > issue though is that of people's expectations. People really do think that > they can jump into a Formula One car and be competitive within a couple of > days (or is that hours?). It's sad. Track driving is more different than > anyone who hasn't done it can possibly imagine. Nothing looks or feels the > way you thought it would and, from personal experience as a ***ager who > enjoyed power-sliding his parents' cars on the public roads and thought he > could step into a race car, it's chastening to find out just how slow you > really are at first. Then you start learning. > I have very fond memories of this period of racing. In 1968 I was taken to > the Grand Prix Drivers' Association showing of "Grand Prix" - which as you > might imagine made a BIG impression so I'm biased in that sense; but I spent > a lot of time at race tracks as spectator and competitor and, as much as any > game can, GPL has captured the driving experience of that era wonderfully. > Nice Monza time. You must send me your setup - I'm still in the high 28s. > John Klemantaski > >Perfect, you have hands-on experience and you dont seem to be religious > about > >GPL. Is the GP car in GPL as hard to drive as the '67 F3 car you drove or > is it > >harder? Was it really that hard to go straight back then? Was it that hard > to > >brake consistently? Was it that hard to survive a jump? > >/Christer, 1:28.04 at Monza and a curious little fellow, isnt' he :o)? > >> Lawrence > >> The simple fact is that I and many others have found GPL to be an > immensely > >> satisfying experience. Some of us have raced cars, some haven't. I raced > >> (by very happy coincidence!) a 1967 F3 car in Monoposto and saloons in > >> Production Saloons in the early 70's but if you think that I'm lying go > talk > >> to Alison Hine, whose excellent "Eagle Woman" web site has been so much > help > >> to so many people, who has recent experience in single seater racing in > the > >> US and who was a very active member of the beta testing team and let her > >> explain just how realistic GPL is. > >> But then maybe everyone is lying to you. Maybe GPL is unrealistically > >> difficult. If that's the case, then there are more than a few people > >> delivering competitive times in GPL who could have given Jim Clark, Dan > >> Gurney, Lorenzo Bandini et al a very hard time. Well maybe but I don't > think > >> so. > >> In the end, the loser is you. Continue to insist that it's the game not > you > >> that's at fault and you'll learn nothing and miss out on one of the great > >> sim experiences. Take the time to learn and it'll be you taking that > >> chequered flag. > >> John Klemantaski > >> >You're right, I haven't driven a single seater. I would be interested to > >> >know if you have? If you have driven in a 1960's formula 1 car in a race > >> >then OK, you would be in a better position to judge...... > >> >>I imagine you haven't driven anything with > >> >>400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed > >> >>anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and > >> possibly > >> >>misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite > unwarranted > >> >>conclusions. > >-- > >[link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online > >racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause > noone > >has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).> Christer, have you got the front and rear ride height the same? If not, the angling of
> the car slows you in the top end. I have noticed that the AI is about 1 mph faster than me
> in the Lotus ie prettywell spot on!
I have the front and rear ride height equal and I have no trouble copying Dave's
and Jure's top speed at Monza, but when in the Ferrari, the top speed has no
chance to the AI Ferraris when npt_override is at 1.0.
Yes, I'm not very slow and I can make very consistent lap times, but I cant
brake consistently, not even close. I get no feedback to tell me when I'm at
optimum braking or have passed it or is not even close. It's even worse trying
to brake side by side with an AI, cause then I cant even hear the little tire
squealing there usually is, not knowing even if I'm way beyond the optimum
braking until one of the fronts lock up, but then it's way too late. It could be
something wrong with my Soundblaster 16, though???
It seems as if the joystick is the best controller for GPL, at least if you
listen to Wolfgang W?ger the fastest GPL driver in the world right now :o).
/Christer, the keyboard is perhaps even faster :o)?
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Mr Kaemmer uses a joystick for steering and pedals for accelerating
and braking, AFAIK. Sounds like Dean uses a setup similar to the one I
had before buying a wheel: joystick axis for steering, button one for
gas, button two for brakes. It worked quite well for me in ICR2, but I
can't see it working for GPL.
>>And up until I go GPL I was always able to do
>>well, and win races with a Joystick. No can do with GPL. You have to have
>>some type of throttle and braking that isn't ON or OFF (like a button on a
>>joystick). I have been able to do better (and have fun) with the Wheel and
>>Pedals.
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
I agree with both sides of the argument... Myself, I'm not that great, but I
know that A) I'm going to improve and B) Other people out there really rock some
ass. Its unrealistic for me to think that ANY game will cater specifically for
me and my skill level, and even if that did happen then what happens once I
improve? So my solution is simple and to be honest I really don't know why every
game in existence (ok that's a _tad_ to general but you guys get the drift)
doesn't do it... so what's the answer? Simple... OPTIONS, OPTIONS, OPTIONS...
Why not just have an option for everything? The game is a little to hard? Turn
the realism down a bit but turning off certain things... then as you improve
turn them on.. Its a simple idea and I don't know why game companies don't use
it to their advantage. I mean, obviously you'd like to cater to the largest
market possible but they seem to think that hitting the hard-core market is
mutually exclusive with hitting the more arcade market... but its not. Look, a
good programmer will program in a module form for many reasons (easier to
de-bug, can re-use code etc.) so why not just have the user decide which
elements he/she wants to race with, it certainly wouldn't be difficult to
implement (well maybe now, but in production it would be simple). That way a
true hard-core sim junkie can on turn all the options, crank the # of opponents
up, and race with the smartest, fastest AI. A more Arcadie player can turn the
AI speed down, turn off whatever features they don't like and voila! A
re-warding experience for whatever gamer is playing! Sooooo simple, yet soooo
over looked.......
-YUBS
P.S. Obviously you couldn't make GPL a complete arcade game, and the gamer would
have to have some sort of interest in the time period and setting since even
after turning off all the realism, GPL will never have the exaggerated physics
that arcade racers like.
A fitting gaffe to reward with kill-file. No one's killing anyone here, no
one's into genocide. Nazism was real, ***y, and evil--& you just applied
it to computer gamers. How pathetic. Too stupid for words.
So I'll stop.
Quoted text (10 lines)
>>> Hi Christer >>> It would seem that critisizing GPL in this NG isn't just blasphemy, it's >>> heresy. >Lawerence, >i prefer to refer to it as GPL-nazism. >Z.Christer, have you got the front and rear ride height the same? If not, the angling of
the car slows you in the top end. I have noticed that the AI is about 1 mph faster than me
in the Lotus ie prettywell spot on!
If your doing low 28s at Monza then you are surely not struggling too much. Something
I have found that has a profound effect on the basic behaviour of the car is ramp angles
and clutchs.
As usual, it's a tradeoff between stability and speed. For eg, the lower the second
ramp angle and the greater the clutchs, the more stable the car is under braking. However,
the car will not turn well into and thru corners while your off throttle. So far I have
found the exact opposite to be true for on throttle behaviour ie higher 1st ramp angle and
lower clutchs = more stability under power, with the accompanying lack of turning power
once again.
So what's required is to find the optimum compromise between drivability and speed. It
looks to me that this is by far the most *** adjustment in the setup options with
reguards to the handling of the car. Those who fail to master this will be stuck in the
wilderness until they do :)
--
Byron Forbes
Captain of Team Lightning Bolt
http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
[link lost in import: /~godsoe/bolt/home.htm]
Quoted text (21 lines)
> Is GPL too unrealistic? I think it's unrealisticly hard to drive in GPL as you > probably already figured out :o). I also think the AI is a bit unrealistic. I've > been starting to fiddle with the npt_override in gpl_ai.ini and when I set it > too 1.0 Mr Clark are always qualifying in the low 1:29's. I've done a couple of > laps in the Ferrari and also studied the other AI's driving the Ferrari. I can > only do around 305 - 306 kph in the Ferrari on the straights, but the AI are > hitting 312 every time, so I'm guessing they must have a more powerful engine > than mine, thus unrealistic. They also almost always outbrake me into the first > Lesmo and Parabolica, they probably have better brakes. If I brake perfectly I > can brake as good as they, but never better, not when the npt_override is at 1.0 > anyway. I also see them do some fast side to side movements on the straights and > in corners that I cant possibly do without loosing the rear and I have my cars > as far from oversteer as possible. > Papyrus has their physics engine running at around 300 Hz, thus they are > sampling the reality 300 times per second. Imagine recording sound with a > sampling frequency at 300 Hz :o). The comparison is not completely fair, but I'm > hoping it puts a finger on a little problem. When sampling you miss information. > The problem here is that you have to dampening your physics engine no matter how > fast it's running. This dampening is probably a science in itself, thus very > hard to get right. I dont think Papy got it quite right.ROFL! There's always one.
Andrew McP
Heh. Walked into that one :-)
Andrew McP
Wouldn't that be superb? Given the ridiculous price of bottom end hardware, a couple of low
spec PCs networked to give low res peripheral vision would be amazing. Mind you, it'd need
a lot of tweaking to get right (the view angle might totally***up your perspective is it
wasn't right).
I doubt Win98's multiple monitor support could ever be much use for this... not unless you
could run under NT and utilise a dual CPU machine and persuade three gfx accelerators to
use different monitors. The 3 PC solution's probably cheaper and simpler!
Always wanted something like this for Quake (when I played a lot). I believe the guys at ID
had Doom set up like this at some point, so it's not beyond the ability of coders.
Still, it'd be for a fairly small number of people, so it wouldn't really justify the development
time. I still want it though :-)
Andrew McP
> Great feedback, John. You'll find my setup and lap here -
> http://www.bhmotorsports.com/gpl/hotlap/ -. By jump I mean two spots on the Ring
> and one spot at Mosport where the car leaves the track for a short moment, cause
> you pass a crest at high speed. Was it as hard in real life jumping as it is in
> GPL :o)?
> From your post it seems as if braking in reality was easier than in GPL?
I wasn't the original poster, but I here's my two cents worth:
I think that not having the feedback of weight transfer, roll, and
acceleration/deceleration makes braking (and judging when you are
"balanced" to take a jump) much harder than it would be with that
feedback.
PS. This is not to say that I would drive a '67 F1 car better than I do
the ones in GPL.
--
Anssi Lehtinen
Great! Did he ever take you with him on shoots? I went recently to the Coy's
Festival at Silverstone and they had a Klemantaski exhibition. My favourite
is the high shot of Fangio rounding Mirabeau in Monaco GP practice. I'm
going to order one of the prints when I can afford it.
I'll see if I can get it - I think it's called the Eye of Klemantaski?
- Michael
>A fitting gaffe to reward with kill-file. No one's killing anyone here, no
>one's into genocide. Nazism was real, ***y, and evil--& you just applied
>it to computer gamers. How pathetic. Too stupid for words.
>So I'll stop.
A core feature of Nazism was about excepted *truths* and programming of them.
The large number of People on this ng who can't accept that some find a lot
wrong with GPL, and must insist on degrading them, or rubbishing them are
guilty of the above
Z.
justify the >development time. I still want it though :-)
I'm sure it will happen - apparently Microsoft's Combat Flight Sim has
multiple monitor support under Win98. I've got no room for 3 monitors
though:-(
- Michael
What we really need is good VR Glasses. Imagine a helmet type setup with the VR Glasses
and built in 3D Headphones. Now there's the future - the not too distant future I hope :))
--
Byron Forbes
Captain of Team Lightning Bolt
http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
[link lost in import: /~godsoe/bolt/home.htm]
Quoted text (19 lines)
> > Perhaps lookleft/lookright > > running on satellite monitors? > Wouldn't that be superb? Given the ridiculous price of bottom end hardware, a couple of low > spec PCs networked to give low res peripheral vision would be amazing. Mind you, it'd need > a lot of tweaking to get right (the view angle might totally***up your perspective is it > wasn't right). > I doubt Win98's multiple monitor support could ever be much use for this... not unless you > could run under NT and utilise a dual CPU machine and persuade three gfx accelerators to > use different monitors. The 3 PC solution's probably cheaper and simpler! > Always wanted something like this for Quake (when I played a lot). I believe the guys at ID > had Doom set up like this at some point, so it's not beyond the ability of coders. > Still, it'd be for a fairly small number of people, so it wouldn't really justify the development > time. I still want it though :-) > Andrew McPI have a SB 16 and no worries here. Isn't it the same as GP2? Sorry, it's been a while
:) In any case, I can't see how this is different from real life anyway.
--
Byron Forbes
Captain of Team Lightning Bolt
http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Yes, I'm not very slow and I can make very consistent lap times, but I cant > brake consistently, not even close. I get no feedback to tell me when I'm at > optimum braking or have passed it or is not even close. It's even worse trying > to brake side by side with an AI, cause then I cant even hear the little tire > squealing there usually is, not knowing even if I'm way beyond the optimum > braking until one of the fronts lock up, but then it's way too late. It could be > something wrong with my Soundblaster 16, though???Must say i'm sad to see that GPL didn't take advanatge of A3D/DirectSound3D.
If you have one, you'll know what i'm talking about.
Z.
Hi Zonker
I think perhaps we all need to take a step back and think about what effect
our language has on people. There are real people in this NG with real
feelings, which can get hurt. Often this is unintentional, or things are
said in the heat of the moment which one regrets later.
I think using "nazi" as an insult is too strong, although I know what you
are getting at.
I've 'lurked' in this NG for a long time (years) and only a few times been
brave (or foolish) enough to put my opinions forward. I find that every time
I do they get twisted and thrown back at me. I suppose this is to be
expected, but it still upsets me every time.
There is a definite trend to "follow the crowd" in this newsgroup. People
who express opinions contrary to the accepted ones inevitably receive abuse
in return.
A good example is Destroy's message. He put forward some interesting
suggestions which didn't hurt anybody and got several abusive messages in
return. OK, so he was stirring the pot a bit, but then I suppose that is
what this NG is for!
All I can do is appeal to everybody to think before they post, make this a
friendly place to be and then we'll all benefit.
Here ends the lesson <g>.
>>A fitting gaffe to reward with kill-file. No one's killing anyone here, no
>>one's into genocide. Nazism was real, ***y, and evil--& you just applied
>>it to computer gamers. How pathetic. Too stupid for words.
>>So I'll stop.
>A core feature of Nazism was about excepted *truths* and programming of them.
>The large number of People on this ng who can't accept that some find a lot
>wrong with GPL, and must insist on degrading them, or rubbishing them are
>guilty of the above
>Z.
A Nazi was simply a member of the German National Party, and the name
implies nothing more than that. Propagation of disinformation and
distribution of propaganda was practised by all warring factions.
More germane to this discussion, exactly the same comment can be made
of people who dislike GPL and disparage any evidence presented to show
positive results. Your description Sound remarkably apt whether
applied to fan or anti-fan.
Cheers!
John
I'm not intending it as an insult- perhaps some people do not geniunely
relaise how extreme the advoacy of products in this group is. To the extent
that all other products must be destroyed!!!!
Oh, i';ve been here for a long time to :) and know what you mean.
i don't know if it will ever be a friendly place ;) but hopefully a place
where people are at least tolerente of people's likes and dislikes.....
Z
Neither can I :o)... Well, in a real race car you dont hear tire squeal at all
unless the car engine is dead, not even in a Formula Ford, which has a very
quite engine, relatively speaking.
/Christer
> In any case, I can't see how this is different from real life anyway.
You mean as in GP2 :o).
/Christer
> That way a
> true hard-core sim junkie can on turn all the options, crank the # of opponents
> up, and race with the smartest, fastest AI. A more Arcadie player can turn the
> AI speed down, turn off whatever features they don't like and voila! A
> re-warding experience for whatever gamer is playing! Sooooo simple, yet soooo
> over looked.......
No, by the time I was have been old enough (born 1951) his interest was
waning although I did go to a couple of GP qualifying days in Englend with
him in the sixties and some other memorable events. Attending the GPDA
showing of Grand Prix in (I think it was) 1967 was a real treat and, yes,
they were all there! The autobiog is called "Klemantaski Himself". Out three
or four months ago. Expensive (95 for the basic or three or four hundred
pounds for a limited edition including some very nice prints) but worth
every penny for the insight into motor racing between the wars and through
until the early seventies. He knew or knows just about everybody from those
years so . .. . . .
Christer
I need to come back to you re airborne. I'd be surprised if GPL hasn't got
that right. I've never done it in a single seater but I have in a road car
so more extrapolation I'm afraid! I need to go round Mosport to see what
you're describing. Yes, braking is/was easier than in GPL but I do think
that some form of resistance in the pedal would make a big difference to
being able to hold the brakes at the point of lockup. What controller are
you using? I'm off to see your Monza lap now. Back to you later.
>Great feedback, John. You'll find my setup and lap here -
>http://www.bhmotorsports.com/gpl/hotlap/Ring
>and one spot at Mosport where the car leaves the track for a short moment, cause
>you pass a crest at high speed. Was it as hard in real life jumping as it is in
>GPL :o)?
>From your post it seems as if braking in reality was easier than in GPL?
>I really dont think there are sim racers thinking they can be competitive in an
>F1 after a couple of days in one :o). I do believe that there are sim racers
>thinking that given the same possibilities as for example Micheal Schumacher has
400 -
>> top speed was around 130 mph not 190 so we're dealing with something very
>> like one of the trainers. In general the answer is yes, by modern road car
>> standards it needed a very high level of input and concentration. The GPL
>> cars are actually relatively forgiving by virtue of their tyres. Early
>> slick-shod cars were pigs to drive because the chassis designs were
>> basically unchanged. They had much more grip but gave no warning when they
>> let go. Straight-line stability is always an issue where aerodynamics aren't
>> used correctly (or at all, as in 1967). In a single seater (or anything
>> built for the track) the effects are exaggerated by the lack of compliance
>> in the steering and suspension, making the car respond to every input. In a
>> road car you can be driving at 90 mph and probably move the steering wheel
>> two or three inches off centre without getting much in the way of response
>> because the *** bushes in the steering rack and those in the suspension
>> take up the slack. Not so in a race car. Back in the late '60s at 130mph or
>> so, things were twitchy and the GPL cars feel right to me bearing in mind
>> their much higher top speed. Braking consistency wasn't difficult - there
>> was always a marker point somewhere - but brake fade was a problem. I don't
>> know what you mean by "jump". Explain please.
>> Obviously there's an issue with the controllers that we all use. They don't
>> do a good job, particularly in as demanding environment as GPL (no feel at
>> all in the brake pedal) and you have to compensate for that. The biggest
>> issue though is that of people's expectations. People really do think that
>> they can jump into a Formula One car and be competitive within a couple of
>> days (or is that hours?). It's sad. Track driving is more different than
>> anyone who hasn't done it can possibly imagine. Nothing looks or feels the
>> way you thought it would and, from personal experience as a ***ager who
>> enjoyed power-sliding his parents' cars on the public roads and thought he
>> could step into a race car, it's chastening to find out just how slow you
>> really are at first. Then you start learning.
>> I have very fond memories of this period of racing. In 1968 I was taken to
>> the Grand Prix Drivers' Association showing of "Grand Prix" - which as you
>> might imagine made a BIG impression so I'm biased in that sense; but I spent
>> a lot of time at race tracks as spectator and competitor and, as much as any
>> game can, GPL has captured the driving experience of that era wonderfully.
or
>> is it
>> >harder? Was it really that hard to go straight back then? Was it that hard
raced
>> >> (by very happy coincidence!) a 1967 F3 car in Monoposto and saloons in
>> >> Production Saloons in the early 70's but if you think that I'm lying go
>> talk
>> >> to Alison Hine, whose excellent "Eagle Woman" web site has been so much
>> help
>> >> to so many people, who has recent experience in single seater racing in
>> the
>> >> US and who was a very active member of the beta testing team and let her
>> >> explain just how realistic GPL is.
>> >> But then maybe everyone is lying to you. Maybe GPL is unrealistically
>> >> difficult. If that's the case, then there are more than a few people
>> >> delivering competitive times in GPL who could have given Jim Clark, Dan
>> >> Gurney, Lorenzo Bandini et al a very hard time. Well maybe but I don't
>> think
>> >> so.
>> >> In the end, the loser is you. Continue to insist that it's the game not
>> you
>> >> that's at fault and you'll learn nothing and miss out on one of the great
to
>> >> >know if you have? If you have driven in a 1960's formula 1 car in a race
>> >> >then OK, you would be in a better position to judge......
>> >> >>I imagine you haven't driven anything with
>> >> >>400bhp - let alone weighing 1200 lbs, nor any single seater nor indeed
cause
>> noone
>> >has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
>--
>[link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online
>racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
>has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
Quoted text (10 lines)
>had in his life, they would be competitive :o). >/Christer >> I think he just wants attention! I'm amazed at the patience that so many >> people have showed when replying to him.Re your questions, I have to >> extrapolate to answer them. My F3 Macon had around 150bhp rather thanQuoted text (12 lines)
>> Nice Monza time. You must send me your setup - I'm still in the high 28s. >> John Klemantaski >> about >> >GPL. Is the GP car in GPL as hard to drive as the '67 F3 car you droveQuoted text (13 lines)
>> to >> >brake consistently? Was it that hard to survive a jump? >> >/Christer, 1:28.04 at Monza and a curious little fellow, isnt' he :o)? >> >> Lawrence >> >> The simple fact is that I and many others have found GPL to be an >> immensely >> >> satisfying experience. Some of us have raced cars, some haven't. IQuoted text (8 lines)
>> >> sim experiences. Take the time to learn and it'll be you taking that >> >> chequered flag. >> >> John Klemantaski >> >> >You're right, I haven't driven a single seater. I would be interestedQuoted text (9 lines)
>> >> >>anything at all on a race track. What you have done is to read and >> >> possibly >> >> >>misunderstand a book on racing in the '50s and draw some quite >> unwarranted >> >> >>conclusions. >> >-- >> >http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online >> >racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times,Thanks, I'll see if I can get hold of it.
- Michael
At first I thought placing the car was very difficult. But after about 1000
laps at Monza - no longer a problem.
I also drove single seater race cars. I started with a Formula Vee in the
middle seventies. GPL is actually pretty close to that experience
(especially the novice trainer). I wasn't competitive the first time out.
I guess the whole thread about how difficult GPL is could be answered by
the articule I read at Eagle Woman's site when I first started driving GPL -
"I never feel really comfortable at a track until I've done about 1000
laps", so sayth Alison, so I believe.
You're right, but this seems to be the Holy Grail of ***. The thing about multiple
monitor/PC support is it could work today, not the day after tomorrow :-)
Also, there's something spooky about the sight of someone using 3d specs/headsets.
Whenever you see them on the TV they look...well, a bit sad, locked in their own little world.
Somehow having the monitor means you can at least -- in theory -- share the experience a
little...even if no-one else in the house wants to, at least they can see what you're up to.
I'm also biased because my left eye's pretty useless (all peripheral vision, no focus) and VR
specs and anything stereoscopic are pretty much wasted on me :-)
Andrew McP
There's a lot of crowd-followers, I'll grant you that. Flocking is an instinctive part of human
nature though... safety in numbers etc, just like being the underdog has a similar attraction
to certain personality types. Usenet psychology isn't all that different to that of any other form
of human interaction.
I haven't had much to say around here until GPL because, to be quite frank, I didn't enjoy
any of the competition very much. I still had ICR2, GP2, and Nascar2, but they didn't satisfy
me the way controlling an Su27 did, so that's where my attention was focused. But the GPL
demo changed that and the full release -- while not perfect -- has met Su27's level of
simulation and raises the bar several notches.
The main split wrt GPL seems to be between those for whom the negative factors are a big
deal, and those who are so busy having the best sim time of their lives that they can't be
bothered to worry about the flaws too much.
Neither side is entirely right. But one side seems to be having a lot more fun!
Andrew McP... having fun ;-)
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > Perhaps lookleft/lookright > > running on satellite monitors? > Wouldn't that be superb? Given the ridiculous price of bottom end hardware, a couple of low > spec PCs networked to give low res peripheral vision would be amazing. Mind you, it'd need > a lot of tweaking to get right (the view angle might totally***up your perspective is it > wasn't right). > I doubt Win98's multiple monitor support could ever be much use for this... not unless you > could run under NT and utilise a dual CPU machine and persuade three gfx accelerators to > use different monitors. The 3 PC solution's probably cheaper and simpler!% Neither side is entirely right. But one side seems to be having a lot more fun!
Count me in as one of those thoroughly having FUN!
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
says...
-snip-
If only!!!
I was watching a tape some in car footage of Jackie Stewart the other day
driving a March in 1970. This car had little front wings and a rear wing
(not a large high one but one kind of moulded out of the rear body work).
It was unreal he was driving on a road circuit that was quite twisty,
don't know which one. He was driving the thing like it was a rally car.
Lots and Lots of wheel work. His wheel work was quite incredible to watch
yet the car was very stable, straight and smooth on the track.
I thought my wheel work in GPL was excessive, but compared to Jackie
Stewart's it is childs play.
Rob Yates
Quoted text (9 lines)
>I was watching a tape some in car footage of Jackie Stewart the other day >driving a March in 1970. This car had little front wings and a rear wing >(not a large high one but one kind of moulded out of the rear body work). >It was unreal he was driving on a road circuit that was quite twisty, >don't know which one. He was driving the thing like it was a rally car. >Lots and Lots of wheel work. His wheel work was quite incredible to watch >yet the car was very stable, straight and smooth on the track. >I thought my wheel work in GPL was excessive, but compared to Jackie >Stewart's it is childs play.Well, lets have both then! :)
--
Byron Forbes
Captain of Team Lightning Bolt
http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
[link lost in import: /~godsoe/bolt/home.htm]
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > What we really need is good VR Glasses > You're right, but this seems to be the Holy Grail of ***. The thing about multiple > monitor/PC support is it could work today, not the day after tomorrow :-) > Also, there's something spooky about the sight of someone using 3d specs/headsets. > Whenever you see them on the TV they look...well, a bit sad, locked in their own little world. > Somehow having the monitor means you can at least -- in theory -- share the experience a > little...even if no-one else in the house wants to, at least they can see what you're up to. > I'm also biased because my left eye's pretty useless (all peripheral vision, no focus) and VR > specs and anything stereoscopic are pretty much wasted on me :-) > Andrew McPQuoted text (9 lines)
> Hi Zonker > I think perhaps we all need to take a step back and think about what effect > our language has on people. There are real people in this NG with real > feelings, which can get hurt. Often this is unintentional, or things are > said in the heat of the moment which one regrets later. > I think using "nazi" as an insult is too strong, although I know what you > are getting at.Hoi,
Well, i usually keep out of NG discussions but this one...
can't resist.
I'm not the slowest on the track...gettin a 29 at monza and a 28 at
zandvoort(loooooooove zandvoort..but then i'm dutch:)
I do it with a sidewinder pro(the stick) which has everything on it,
(no pedals/rudders yet:( )
I guess with a wheel, or pedals i could get a bit faster.
Thing with drivin cars...and tihs goes most for GPL cause it's such a
realistic model...is you need feedback.
For example GP2 was nice...but if you knew the track you could set
times totally impossible in real life...IMO because the modelling
simply wasn't up to what GPL is giving.
In my view GPL would become 'easier' if you felt the car slide under
your butt...feel the wheels loosing grip...feel the pressure you put
on the brakes increase if you brake harder...feel the lockup thru the
brakepedal....and so on and so on...but i guess for now this is just a
dream of future technology.
I'm praying for a good force feedback patch...cause then i will get me
one of them funky wheels just for this sim.
to me GPL is both the ultimate frustration and the ultimate
satisfaction/fun in the carsim arena...truly great pece of work.
I do think the AI has some annoying things mentioned earlier in this
thread...they go thru the sandpit in the parabolica as if they were on
normal tarmac...they move left/right on straights very drastically and
don't loose grip when they do...their braking is always the same..as
someone said..can brake with them...but never outbrake them...they
always have the perfect non wheelspin start(at the top of the grid
that is)
Well...nothing is perfect but GPL is getting migty close.
Willem
>Lots of you in this forum have put in scores of hours with GPL (indeed some
>were involved from the very beginning with beta testing), not to count the
>hours on other sims. Real drivers did not put in this amount of practise.
>Hence my argument that it's not realistic.
But real drivers could feel the car in the small of their back. As
Christian Fittipaldi told me, that's what separates simulations from
real life. Dealing with GPL and practicing takes so much effort
because it takes a fair amount of time for you to develop an instinct
for something which you cannot physically feel, but which real drivers
could. They didn't have to "imagine" it. It was already there.
Your sales statistics are based upon...WHAT?
Randy
Randy Magruder
[link lost in import]
Am I the only one who finds it screamingly funny that some
people criticize GPL As unrealistically difficult because they think
_they_ could have raced Clark wheel to wheel in a 1967 F1 car?
I think it's unrealistic because so many people _can_ race
Clark wheel to wheel in the sim. It's gotta be too easy.
bob
I should think so too! You're too fast to take part in this discussion... Dutch git ;-)
Andrew McP... who's only ever seen the back of Willem's car
It does take time but it can be done - I find myself correcting slides with
steering input before there's any indication of the slide in the 3D view,
you can do this because you "know" certain behaviour takes place. For
example, if you are on the adhesion limit and you have to back off the
throttle because you're understeering towards the curb, you know that the
tail of the car will step out and you'll need opposite lock.
If you wait until you actually see it happen on the 3D view, its too late
and the tail of the car will go onto the grass and you've lost it.
- Michael
> Am I the only one who finds it screamingly funny that some
> people criticize GPL As unrealistically difficult because they think
> _they_ could have raced Clark wheel to wheel in a 1967 F1 car?
Nope. After about five weeks, I'm in the middle of the pack (qualifying
around 11th). I'm sure if I was teleported back to 1967, it would have
taken me at least six weeks to be this good.
Dave Ewing
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > Am I the only one who finds it screamingly funny that some > > people criticize GPL As unrealistically difficult because they think > > _they_ could have raced Clark wheel to wheel in a 1967 F1 car? > Nope. After about five weeks, I'm in the middle of the pack (qualifying > around 11th). I'm sure if I was teleported back to 1967, it would have > taken me at least six weeks to be this good. > Dave EwingAndrea de Cesaris had a lot more seat time than Ayrton Senna...
Cheers!
John
Good point, but.......
Many of us simmers have as much sim seat time as Clark ever had in any car. So we should
be as good and better **in sims**.
--
Byron Forbes
Captain of Team Lightning Bolt
http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Am I the only one who finds it screamingly funny that some > people criticize GPL As unrealistically difficult because they think > _they_ could have raced Clark wheel to wheel in a 1967 F1 car? > I think it's unrealistic because so many people _can_ race > Clark wheel to wheel in the sim. It's gotta be too easy. > bobI can see where you are coming from in saying that GPL is frustrating,
but too difficult, I don't think so. I have limited time to play my sims
so I still end up off the road as often as I can stay on the road.
Whenever I get frustrated with GPL I usually do one of two things. First
I may play another sim (one that I can drive), or I think about how I
started in sim racing. The very first sim I ever drove was World Circuit
Racing (GP1). I can remember that I spent several months and very long
hours using Auto Brakes and Gears, because the sim was very frustrating.
Once it was all said and done I was driving GP1 with manual shifting and
manual brakes and could lap the field (AI) at Phoenix twice. I think
that where most of the frustration comes from is that you have felt the
joy of victory (in another sim) and can't wait to taste it again in GPL,
only problem is, that taste is wanted right away, and not with the usual
learning curve. My opinion is that as time passes by and the simulators
become more and more 'realistic', the longer the learning curve will
become, and I happily look forward to it. Just think how someone like
Rusty Wallace, Gerhard Berger(?), or Bobby Rahal (before retirement)
felt when they had a long winless streak. Sure they were frustrated, but
instead of quiting they just tried harder. :)
writes:
Only 15 laps??? Uh oh, I've done WAAY more than that. And I'm STILL too slow.
:(
There's an option not to display the wheel and arms inside the***pit.
The traders on our trade floor have dual monitors with one special graphics card that gives them
2048x768 resolution spread across two 21 inch monitors. Not a big change to go to three. Of course
these are not game cards but not a big logical step to have a single graphics card that gives
3072x768 pluged into three monitors. Positioning would be tricky though - ideally these would be
alongside you rather than on your desk
Paul
Quoted text (29 lines)
> > > Perhaps lookleft/lookright > > > running on satellite monitors? > > Wouldn't that be superb? Given the ridiculous price of bottom end hardware, a couple of low > > spec PCs networked to give low res peripheral vision would be amazing. Mind you, it'd need > > a lot of tweaking to get right (the view angle might totally***up your perspective is it > > wasn't right). > > I doubt Win98's multiple monitor support could ever be much use for this... not unless you > > could run under NT and utilise a dual CPU machine and persuade three gfx accelerators to > > use different monitors. The 3 PC solution's probably cheaper and simpler! > oh, you don't need special win98 multimonitor support. that's for > windows multimonitor stuff. For *** purposes just stick in 3 > 3dfx cards - each one has it's own monitor output, the game just > has a look and sees all 3 cards, and uses them appropriately... > hell, if you had enough free PCI slots you could run Voodoo2 SLI on > a 21" monitor for your primary forward view, and then have 2 cheap > Voodoo1 cards to run your satellite displays on 15" monitors arranged > suitably, since the Glide library can support up to 4 3dfx cards in one > system. My desk is big enough to do this:) > Also the game would need a configuration ability where the user > can specify the exact locations and sizes of each monitor, the location > of the user's head too, so the game can then calculate all the correct > viewports and perspective levels to render the correct images to > the monitors. fairly straightforward to do :) > And the "gaps" between the edges of the adjacent monitors would > "simulate" the roof supports at the edge of the windscreen (only > applicable to non-open-wheeler sims, obviously)> No matter how good GPL or N3 are, N3 is going to sell a lot more
> copies on the strength of the NASCAR name. GPL just won't show up on
> the radar for a lot of NASCAR fans. So this did give them some
> latitude in how they did the sim.
Maybe, maybe not. Nascar (and Indycar for that matter) aren't at all big outside
the US. Formula 1 is big right across the globe - in fact almost everywhere
except in the US. If N3 has arcade options then it will outsell GPL, but if they
follow up GPL with a 1976 F1 version with equivalent arcade options then I think
it will outsell Nascar 3. GPL is pretty much the first major Papyrus title that
is not US focused.
Paul
That's one fact I really hated when I first read it. I don't see Michael
Schumacher with a joystick installed in his Ferrari. I've never used a joystick
for a racing sim or any other game for that matter but can't imagine it would be
half as much fun as with a wheel and certainly nowhere near as realistic.
Which brings another thing I hate to mind - why do GPL and some other sims have
to do the graphics of the wheel and drivers arms when I'm sitting here with a
wheel and a pair of arms of my own. What I see are two wheels and two pairs of
arms. I'd like to see one set of these taken out in future releases (not mine,
of course :-) ).
Paul
Quoted text (14 lines)
> I believe Dave Kaemmer uses a joystick and also other Papyrus employees. > Some of the fastest GPL drivers are using a joystick as well. > David G Fisher > >And up until I go GPL I was always able to do > >well, and win races with a Joystick. No can do with GPL. You have to have > >some type of throttle and braking that isn't ON or OFF (like a button on a > >joystick). I have been able to do better (and have fun) with the Wheel and > >Pedals. > >DeanAnd is it also how come JV can't hold a candle up to Michael Schumacher :-)
Paul
Quoted text (11 lines)
> >Good point, but....... > > Many of us simmers have as much sim seat time as Clark ever had in any car. So we should > >be as good and better **in sims**. > What about all the people over the decades that had as much seat time as Clark > but couldn't even come close to him? > And how is it that Jacques Villeneuve is able to beat drivers that are older > than he is with more racing experience? > glenI stand corrected
Paul
What is NFS3???
Quoted text (12 lines)
> I like GPL and yes it is difficult. But, that's why it is my favorite > sim. Following the thread here, I should be complaining that NFS3 isn't > "realistic" enough and EA should add more difficulty to it, it's just to > damn arcadish! But, then I like NFS3, too. Just not as much as GPL. > If EA, wants me to enjoy NFS3 more and expect me to buy NFS4, they > better make it more realistic and harder to play. ;-) > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=% What is NFS3???
Electronic Arts' Need For Speed III (an arcade driving game).
% >
% > I like GPL and yes it is difficult. But, that's why it is my favorite
% > sim. Following the thread here, I should be complaining that NFS3 isn't
% > "realistic" enough and EA should add more difficulty to it, it's just to
% > damn arcadish! But, then I like NFS3, too. Just not as much as GPL.
% > If EA, wants me to enjoy NFS3 more and expect me to buy NFS4, they
% > better make it more realistic and harder to play. ;-)
% >
% > --
% > **************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
% > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
% > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
