TSW problems

Digital sensors verses analogue?

Quoted text (18 lines)

>My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not >steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm >of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of >about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the >accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake >full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with >conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power >splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any >problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. >Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. >(I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an >advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. >I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that >this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the >track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be >super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to >eliminate it. >Paul

My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. (I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to eliminate it. Paul

I don't understand your answer. Are you suggesting using optical pots? These are analogue variable resistors (potentiometers) the same as in the other wheels I've tried (an F1 Sim and a Thrustmaster F1). I've tried plugging into two different ports a Soundblaster 16 MIDI port and a thrustmaster ACM port with the same results on both. I've also tried configuring with the window 98 standard joy.cpl as well as Thrustmaster propanel. With all these configurations, neither the F1 Sim nor the Thustmaster F1 give any bounce at all but the TSW Sport does. Paul

Quoted text (22 lines)

> Digital sensors verses analogue? > >My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not > >steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm > >of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of > >about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the > >accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake > >full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with > >conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power > >splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any > >problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. > >Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. > >(I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an > >advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. > >I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that > >this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the > >track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be > >super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to > >eliminate it. > >Paul

I too have had the problem with bounce and the TSW the problem appears to be in the value of the pots used ( 100k ). I fixed the problem with bounce and the pedals by taking an ohm meter and adjusting the pots on the pedals so that they use the lower resistance half of the pot ( 0 - 50k) and it made a big difference. The only way to improve the steering would be to replace the pot with a lower resistance value ( 50k or less ) because it uses the entire range of the pot. On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:28:43 +0000, Paul Jones

Quoted text (18 lines)

>My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not >steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm >of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of >about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the >accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake >full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with >conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power >splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any >problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. >Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. >(I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an >advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. >I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that >this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the >track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be >super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to >eliminate it. >Paul

Guys... Some info that I have accumulated since Friday on this. I just bought the TSW and it arrived Friday. I bought the expensive 50k pots and the PDPI L4. I installed the PDPI first and tried it out with my Nascar Pro and everything seemed ok after I got around the quirky way of with-holding some of the pedal to keep it from maxxing out the Y axis. I ran a few laps in Nascar2 and was satisfied that the gamecard was working properly since my lap times were the slightly better than before. I then installed the TSW. I selected the Two axis two button joystick as the controller and calibrated it. I then went into GPL and noticed that I had some fluctuation on the Y axis when moving my steering wheel. It was slight but I was concerned. I called PDPI for help and the guy there (Mike Pelkey) tried several things to get rid of the jitter. One of them was his suggestion to use the 50k pots. I installed them on the brake and gas since they were a combined axis, and they were causing me the most grief (100k- combined ?) ... the numbers I got were ok, but we were still having the jitter. We changed the digital settings on the PDPI L4 in the registry. We made incremental adjustments starting from the default value of 3B to 50 ... still no luck. Mike finally stated that he was mystified and didnt know why it was behaving this way. He felt that Thomas should try and split the axis to make it cleaner and didnt really have anything left to try. I decided to go back to my original gamecard (CH Gamecard3) ... but now I had the same problem only worse. I installed the third 50k pot on my steering wheel and decided to tackle this myself. I removed the CH card. I used my existing gamecard from my soundcard TBS A3D and noticed that this was infinitely better. I decided to try GPL again... this time it was jittery but not as bad... i tried generic and also sliding the steering bias to the right but still had slight jitters. I then decided to have another look at the PDPI card. I read somewhere on their web-page that mini-drivers caused problems and I was unsure exactly what constituted a mini-driver so I removed all the things that I had installed for gameport devices. I un-installed Pro-Panel by TM. I then un-installed Microsoft Sidewinder Device Software version3. I then went back into the control panel and noticed that there was now absolutley no jitter. I have a feeling that the Sidewinder Game profiler was doing something somewhere and that may have been causing me some grief. I dont know if this helps but I would be happy to hear from any of you that may know if this was truly the culprit. I spent a whole day with this problem and this was the only thing that worked.

Quoted text (55 lines)

>First off I don't have much to say in the way of practual help - >sorry. >Many of us have these kinds of problems. The only fix I've tried that >actualy works is the PDPI L4 game digital card which has jitter >filters in its drivers, ( ***y expensive though ). I think jitter >filters could be implmented into just about anyones' gamecard drivers >if only the makers would bother. Strange that they don't. >I've also gone the route of putting in very high quality pots. These >have had some effect but not as much as hopped. >So what else could be the base cause here ? I'm not sure. >It occurs to me that perhaps its the voltage regulators at fault. If I >bought a high quality power supply maybe that'd have better voltage >regulators and therefore the voltage to the gamecard/joystick would be >more steady - resulting in a steadier control. ( The way joysticks >produce positional information, by charging capacitors, can be readily >and much affected by even small voltage movements ). I haven't >addressed this possiable cause yet but will be sure to try to buy a >high quality case/power supply when I move to a ATX form system. >Meanwhile I still have a slight jitter that I can't get rid of and >which I'm resigned to live with ATM. >I think you're right when you say in GPL you need to be >super accurate with your control input. The problem certainly takes on >an added demention in this sim. >Just dicussion really. No answers. FWIW. >Phillip McNelley >On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:28:43 +0000, Paul Jones >>My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not >>steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm >>of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of >>about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the >>accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake >>full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with >>conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power >>splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any >>problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. >>Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. >>(I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an >>advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. >>I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that >>this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the >>track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be >>super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to >>eliminate it. >>Paul

First off I don't have much to say in the way of practual help - sorry. Many of us have these kinds of problems. The only fix I've tried that actualy works is the PDPI L4 game digital card which has jitter filters in its drivers, ( ***y expensive though ). I think jitter filters could be implmented into just about anyones' gamecard drivers if only the makers would bother. Strange that they don't. I've also gone the route of putting in very high quality pots. These have had some effect but not as much as hopped. So what else could be the base cause here ? I'm not sure. It occurs to me that perhaps its the voltage regulators at fault. If I bought a high quality power supply maybe that'd have better voltage regulators and therefore the voltage to the gamecard/joystick would be more steady - resulting in a steadier control. ( The way joysticks produce positional information, by charging capacitors, can be readily and much affected by even small voltage movements ). I haven't addressed this possiable cause yet but will be sure to try to buy a high quality case/power supply when I move to a ATX form system. Meanwhile I still have a slight jitter that I can't get rid of and which I'm resigned to live with ATM. I think you're right when you say in GPL you need to be super accurate with your control input. The problem certainly takes on an added demention in this sim. Just dicussion really. No answers. FWIW. Phillip McNelley On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:28:43 +0000, Paul Jones

Quoted text (18 lines)

>My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not >steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm >of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of >about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the >accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake >full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with >conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power >splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any >problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. >Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. >(I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an >advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. >I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that >this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the >track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be >super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to >eliminate it. >Paul

Do you know if the Microsoft Sidewinder Device Software version3 can be downloaded from anywhere and if so where? Paul

Quoted text (105 lines)

> Guys... > Some info that I have accumulated since Friday on this. I just bought the > TSW and it arrived Friday. I bought the expensive 50k pots and the PDPI L4. > I installed the PDPI first and tried it out with my Nascar Pro and > everything seemed ok after I got around the quirky way of with-holding some > of the pedal to keep it from maxxing out the Y axis. > I ran a few laps in Nascar2 and was satisfied that the gamecard was working > properly since my lap times were the slightly better than before. > I then installed the TSW. I selected the Two axis two button joystick as the > controller and calibrated it. I then went into GPL and noticed that I had > some fluctuation on the Y axis when moving my steering wheel. It was slight > but I was concerned. I called PDPI for help and the guy there (Mike Pelkey) > tried several things to get rid of the jitter. > One of them was his suggestion to use the 50k pots. I installed them on the > brake and gas since they were a combined axis, and they were causing me the > most grief (100k- combined ?) ... the numbers I got were ok, but we were > still having the jitter. We changed the digital settings on the PDPI L4 in > the registry. We made incremental adjustments starting from the default > value of 3B to 50 ... still no luck. Mike finally stated that he was > mystified and didnt know why it was behaving this way. He felt that Thomas > should try and split the axis to make it cleaner and didnt really have > anything left to try. > I decided to go back to my original gamecard (CH Gamecard3) ... but now I > had the same problem only worse. I installed the third 50k pot on my > steering wheel and decided to tackle this myself. I removed the CH card. I > used my existing gamecard from my soundcard TBS A3D and noticed that this > was infinitely better. I decided to try GPL again... this time it was > jittery but not as bad... i tried generic and also sliding the steering bias > to the right but still had slight jitters. I then decided to have another > look at the PDPI card. > I read somewhere on their web-page that mini-drivers caused problems and I > was unsure exactly what constituted a mini-driver so I removed all the > things that I had installed for gameport devices. I un-installed Pro-Panel > by TM. I then un-installed Microsoft Sidewinder Device Software version3. I > then went back into the control panel and noticed that there was now > absolutley no jitter. > I have a feeling that the Sidewinder Game profiler was doing something > somewhere and that may have been causing me some grief. I dont know if this > helps but I would be happy to hear from any of you that may know if this was > truly the culprit. I spent a whole day with this problem and this was the > only thing that worked. > >First off I don't have much to say in the way of practual help - > >sorry. > >Many of us have these kinds of problems. The only fix I've tried that > >actualy works is the PDPI L4 game digital card which has jitter > >filters in its drivers, ( ***y expensive though ). I think jitter > >filters could be implmented into just about anyones' gamecard drivers > >if only the makers would bother. Strange that they don't. > >I've also gone the route of putting in very high quality pots. These > >have had some effect but not as much as hopped. > >So what else could be the base cause here ? I'm not sure. > >It occurs to me that perhaps its the voltage regulators at fault. If I > >bought a high quality power supply maybe that'd have better voltage > >regulators and therefore the voltage to the gamecard/joystick would be > >more steady - resulting in a steadier control. ( The way joysticks > >produce positional information, by charging capacitors, can be readily > >and much affected by even small voltage movements ). I haven't > >addressed this possiable cause yet but will be sure to try to buy a > >high quality case/power supply when I move to a ATX form system. > >Meanwhile I still have a slight jitter that I can't get rid of and > >which I'm resigned to live with ATM. > >I think you're right when you say in GPL you need to be > >super accurate with your control input. The problem certainly takes on > >an added demention in this sim. > >Just dicussion really. No answers. FWIW. > >Phillip McNelley > >On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:28:43 +0000, Paul Jones > >>My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not > >>steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm > >>of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of > >>about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the > >>accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake > >>full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with > >>conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power > >>splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any > >>problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. > >>Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. > >>(I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an > >>advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. > >>I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that > >>this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the > >>track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be > >>super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to > >>eliminate it. > >>Paul

Here's some more info plus a working solution: I read this from Thrustmaster - "Racing console troubleshooting The control response is jerky or uneven during game play. What kind of game port are you using, and how fast is your computer? This problem usually comes up on faster systems. Are you using a game port on a multi-function card (like a multi-I/O card or sound card)? If so, the card may not be able to keep up with the speed of your computer during game play. And there isnt a control on the market that can make a slow game port faster. If you want to take advantage of your systems speed, get a real game card. A speed-adjustable card (such as ThrustMasters ACM card) is the best choice, permitting calibration to your computers speed." I have an ACM card and I turned the speed right up to the top (way beyond the centre point) and recalibrated. The bounce has now almost completely gone :-) Paul

Quoted text (18 lines)

> My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not > steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about 3mm > of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of > about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the > accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake > full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with > conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power > splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any > problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. > Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. > (I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an > advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. > I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that > this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the > track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be > super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to > eliminate it. > Paul

... I was referring to the Microsoft Sidewinder as a possible cause of my troubles. If you do not have it installed.. do not install it. Also if you have Thrustmasters Pro Panel installed remove it also. After I removed both of these items it removed some of the available devices from my list of controllers. According to the readme.txt file from PDPI anything in the device list using version 1.41 can be considered a mini-driver. In other words dont use em.

Quoted text (10 lines)

>Do you know if the Microsoft Sidewinder Device Software version3 can be >downloaded from anywhere and if so where? >Paul >> Guys... >> Some info that I have accumulated since Friday on this. I just bought

the >> TSW and it arrived Friday. I bought the expensive 50k pots and the PDPI L4. >> I installed the PDPI first and tried it out with my Nascar Pro and >> everything seemed ok after I got around the quirky way of with-holding some >> of the pedal to keep it from maxxing out the Y axis. >> I ran a few laps in Nascar2 and was satisfied that the gamecard was working >> properly since my lap times were the slightly better than before. >> I then installed the TSW. I selected the Two axis two button joystick as the >> controller and calibrated it. I then went into GPL and noticed that I had >> some fluctuation on the Y axis when moving my steering wheel. It was slight >> but I was concerned. I called PDPI for help and the guy there (Mike Pelkey) >> tried several things to get rid of the jitter. >> One of them was his suggestion to use the 50k pots. I installed them on the >> brake and gas since they were a combined axis, and they were causing me the >> most grief (100k- combined ?) ... the numbers I got were ok, but we were >> still having the jitter. We changed the digital settings on the PDPI L4 in >> the registry. We made incremental adjustments starting from the default >> value of 3B to 50 ... still no luck. Mike finally stated that he was >> mystified and didnt know why it was behaving this way. He felt that Thomas >> should try and split the axis to make it cleaner and didnt really have >> anything left to try. >> I decided to go back to my original gamecard (CH Gamecard3) ... but now I >> had the same problem only worse. I installed the third 50k pot on my >> steering wheel and decided to tackle this myself. I removed the CH card. I >> used my existing gamecard from my soundcard TBS A3D and noticed that this >> was infinitely better. I decided to try GPL again... this time it was >> jittery but not as bad... i tried generic and also sliding the steering bias >> to the right but still had slight jitters. I then decided to have another >> look at the PDPI card. >> I read somewhere on their web-page that mini-drivers caused problems and I >> was unsure exactly what constituted a mini-driver so I removed all the >> things that I had installed for gameport devices. I un-installed Pro-Panel >> by TM. I then un-installed Microsoft Sidewinder Device Software version3. I >> then went back into the control panel and noticed that there was now >> absolutley no jitter. >> I have a feeling that the Sidewinder Game profiler was doing something >> somewhere and that may have been causing me some grief. I dont know if this >> helps but I would be happy to hear from any of you that may know if this was >> truly the culprit. I spent a whole day with this problem and this was the

Quoted text (46 lines)

>> only thing that worked. >> >sorry. >> >Many of us have these kinds of problems. The only fix I've tried that >> >actualy works is the PDPI L4 game digital card which has jitter >> >filters in its drivers, ( ***y expensive though ). I think jitter >> >filters could be implmented into just about anyones' gamecard drivers >> >if only the makers would bother. Strange that they don't. >> >I've also gone the route of putting in very high quality pots. These >> >have had some effect but not as much as hopped. >> >So what else could be the base cause here ? I'm not sure. >> >It occurs to me that perhaps its the voltage regulators at fault. If I >> >bought a high quality power supply maybe that'd have better voltage >> >regulators and therefore the voltage to the gamecard/joystick would be >> >more steady - resulting in a steadier control. ( The way joysticks >> >produce positional information, by charging capacitors, can be readily >> >and much affected by even small voltage movements ). I haven't >> >addressed this possiable cause yet but will be sure to try to buy a >> >high quality case/power supply when I move to a ATX form system. >> >Meanwhile I still have a slight jitter that I can't get rid of and >> >which I'm resigned to live with ATM. >> >I think you're right when you say in GPL you need to be >> >super accurate with your control input. The problem certainly takes on >> >an added demention in this sim. >> >Just dicussion really. No answers. FWIW. >> >Phillip McNelley >> >On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:28:43 +0000, Paul Jones >> >>My TSW Sport has a lot of bounce in the pots (ie the signal is not >> >>steady). The bounce wavers from nothing at all to quite a lot (about

3mm >> >>of the Windows98 control panel) in a regular sin wave with a period of >> >>about 4 secs (I haven't timed it). There is no bounce when I got the >> >>accelerator flat down (with no brakes) and there is a lot with the brake >> >>full down (with no throttle). I've tried replacing the pots with >> >>conductive plastic ones to no avail. I've got a 4-way 240 volt power >> >>splitter about 6 inches from the pedal unit but I don't experience any >> >>problem with any other controller I've tried in the exact same position. >> >>Has anyone else experienced this and does anyone know of a fix for it. >> >>(I have wondered whether the slight ABS effect this gives me is an >> >>advantage - but overall the effect is definitely negative. >> >>I explained these problems to Thomas Enterprises and they explained that >> >>this was a normal problem and doesn't really have much effect on the >> >>track. While this is probably true in other sims, in GPL you need to be >> >>super accurate with your braking and acceleration and I would love to >> >>eliminate it. >> >>Paul

Well after reading your post i deceived to try the adjustable game card i used in my old computer which never helped in it and low and behold it is now as smooth as can be. Sometimes computers want to make you SCREAM! Harley

Quoted text (17 lines)

>Here's some more info plus a working solution: >I read this from Thrustmaster - >"Racing console troubleshooting >The control response is jerky or uneven during game play. >What kind of game port are you using, and how fast is your computer? This >problem usually comes up on faster systems. >Are you using a game port on a multi-function card (like a multi-I/O card or >sound card)? If so, the card may not be able to keep up with the speed of >your computer during game play. And there isnt a control on the market that >can make a slow game port faster. If you want to take advantage of your >systems speed, get a real game card. A speed-adjustable card (such as >ThrustMasters ACM card) is the best choice, permitting calibration to your >computers speed." >I have an ACM card and I turned the speed right up to the top (way beyond >the centre point) and recalibrated. The bounce has now almost completely >gone :-) >Paul