Why GT blows chunks.... (was Re: F**k GPL, there is only one good racing game !)

> WAY off topic, but didn't the old CanAm racers all use American big blocks? > Remember reading many an article detailing the utter brilliance of American > blocks. Sure it's ancient history in racing time, but you can't knock > 1500hp roadracing machines! Yep, at least the major teams, perhaps all. I remember the Chaparral had a 427 cu. in. Chevrolet. Chevys and Fords were the big players. Dave Ewing

On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:07:48 -0500, "Erik Frechette" >WAY off topic, but didn't the old CanAm racers all use American big blocks? >Remember reading many an article detailing the utter brilliance of American >blocks. Sure it's ancient history in racing time, but you can't knock >1500hp roadracing machines! Not all Can Am entires used American engines. Notable exceptions include Ferrari and Porsche. More on-topic now... Did anyone read Car magazine's head-to-head comparison of the Porsche Carrera (996) and the Subaru Impreza homologation? Martin Nigel Mansell RIP!

The lack of respect for American engineering troubles me a bit. To write it all off as "a laugh" is a big mistake. Sure, we produce our share of bad cars - but so do the Japanese, and so do the Europeans. Don't forget we're responsible for the greatest engineering feat ever - putting a man on the moon, so if it came down to it I'm sure the US could put together a car to compete with anything else the world has to offer. At least that's my 2-cents. CHRIS

>production vehicle currently for sale in the USA. It also has the >highest grip and will simply blow the doors off of anything Japan >imports into this country for street use. Strangely enough the Dodge Viper was the car used in a recent test over here - it was LAST out of all the cars tested around a circuit in the UK. Two of the cars which beat it were Japanese, the others being European. As long as you define "fast" as being "in a straight line" then you may be correct, but stick a couple of corners in and all it would see of a 2 litre Renault Clio Williams would be the tail lights disappearing over the horizon. You obviously have never seen the 1,000bhp Supras or 1,300bhp Skylines that can be seen in Tokyo. If your car starts with huge power then if only a slight modification is allowed it will always be faster. Still, going quickly in a straight line is not a good definition of fast - you can't go anywhere by driving your car in a straight line. Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. Try doing that on the Tokyo-Yokohama expressway - your car wouldn't even be considered worthy of their attention. Each car is designed to appeal to it's market, and you can't compare the power of a U.S. muscle car with a car designed to appeal to Japanese youth and claim it to be better. When comparing like with like I can guarantee you that while several U.S. cars are easily superior to, say, the Skyline in outright acceleration (mainly due to the Skyline's 280bhp government imposed limit), there is _nothing_ which compares to a Skyline on a point to point drive along normal roads (that's roads with corners). That's tough for me to say since I would like the European pedigree of Ferrari, Porsche etc to reign supreme, but the Skyline is the most awesome car I've tried, with immense confidence inspiring poise and grip. I've never been lucky enough to try a Ferrari, but even fans of the Ferrari F355 who've driven both say the Skyline is at least the equal in performance (although it is massively inferior in the looks department!). :-) Don't knock the "silly Japanese cars", they're a hell of a lot better than you think. You don't dominate the World Rally Championship by building gutless, poor-handling cars. Cheers! John

Quoted text (9 lines)

>>Not meaning to troll.. but the problem is the rest of the world laughs >quite >>openly at American cars. >The lack of respect for American engineering troubles me a bit. To write it >all off as "a laugh" is a big mistake. Sure, we produce our share of bad >cars - but so do the Japanese, and so do the Europeans. Don't forget we're >responsible for the greatest engineering feat ever - putting a man on the >moon,

Thanks to the german rocket scientists 8) The Guardian has a quite interesting piece today, FYI. (www.guardian.co.uk) so if it came down to it I'm sure the US could put together a car to Perhaps, but why don't they? Z.

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >Not meaning to troll.. but the problem is the rest of the world laughs > quite > >openly at American cars. > The lack of respect for American engineering troubles me a bit. To write it > all off as "a laugh" is a big mistake. Sure, we produce our share of bad > cars - but so do the Japanese, and so do the Europeans. Don't forget we're > responsible for the greatest engineering feat ever - putting a man on the > moon, so if it came down to it I'm sure the US could put together a car to > compete with anything else the world has to offer. > At least that's my 2-cents.

Isn't that a strange generalization? US technology put a man on the moon, so we should be the best everywhere? I will never forget when I saw the kitchen appliances in my first appartment the first time. Wow, I thought I stepped into a time machine that took me back 20 years... ;^) ...and this was a brandnew kitchen! It's just what the market needs and wants, I guess. Cars for the US market only need to be comfortable at low speeds, that's what I realize every time I drive my US built Nissan Sentra on German country roads... ;^) l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>Not meaning to troll.. but the problem is the rest of the world laughs >quite >>openly at American cars. >The lack of respect for American engineering troubles me a bit. To write it >all off as "a laugh" is a big mistake. Sure, we produce our share of bad >cars - but so do the Japanese, and so do the Europeans. Don't forget we're >responsible for the greatest engineering feat ever - putting a man on the >moon, so if it came down to it I'm sure the US could put together a car to >compete with anything else the world has to offer. >At least that's my 2-cents.

Did you really just say that? M

Japanese cars are seen as small and tinny by a sizable portion of the U.S. market, U.S. cars are seen as powerful ill-handling hulks by Europeans. Japanese seem to like U.S. cars, with their "macho" image. Fact is that each car is matched to the market, and with U.S. roads generally being long, wide and very straight a big powerful car that can cruise effortlessly is ideal. Given the low speed limit the high-speed handling is not an important issue either. European cars drive on everything from tight twisty country or mountain roads in U.K. or Switzerland up to massive 150mph+ autobahns in Germany - an incredible range of road conditions. For that reason the handling is paramount along with ride quality and stability, and while power is important it cannot be achieved via huge engines due to the >$5 per gallon fuel prices. GT however represents racing those cars on a track, and in every test I've seen the Viper and Corvette fall far short of the point-to-point performance of Porsche, Nissan, Honda and the like. The reviewers have, in other tests, enormously enjoyed these cars, but on European roads and/or circuit racing they're just not designed to do that. That's not to say the U.S. couldn't make a car which was capable of that, but it wouldn't necessarily appeal to their market so the risk of a flop is high. All countries make very good cars, but targetted toward different markets and tastes - for that reason we laugh at each others :-) Cheers! John

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >spent be a big deal. Take a trip down to your local drag strip and > >check out what fast is. Or, just watch Le Mans next year and watch > >Porsche win for the 17th time even in the face of Toyota and Nissan's > >best efforts. > Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART.

Err..toyota *led* Le Mans, broke down and Porsche won..Mazda won in '91 :-) Matt K

Since when did GM or Ford make a good car???? GM said their nicest car is the C5, but they copied the front from the 3rd gen RX-7 and the side from the NSX. All Ford has is the Rustang, and oh please add some independent rear suspension will they. This is the 90's. As for Dodge, I wouldn't even say anything about their 3 ton cars.... Oh yeah the bad car that European car maker made was the 99 911, bad thing is that they look like a boxster.

Yeah US cars are really made for high speed driving, ever seen a Jeep wranglar going at 100 mph on the highway... >>The lack of respect for American engineering troubles me a bit. To write it

Quoted text (31 lines)

>>all off as "a laugh" is a big mistake. Sure, we produce our share of bad >>cars - but so do the Japanese, and so do the Europeans. >Japanese cars are seen as small and tinny by a sizable portion of the >U.S. market, U.S. cars are seen as powerful ill-handling hulks by >Europeans. Japanese seem to like U.S. cars, with their "macho" image. >Fact is that each car is matched to the market, and with U.S. roads >generally being long, wide and very straight a big powerful car that >can cruise effortlessly is ideal. Given the low speed limit the >high-speed handling is not an important issue either. European cars >drive on everything from tight twisty country or mountain roads in >U.K. or Switzerland up to massive 150mph+ autobahns in Germany - an >incredible range of road conditions. For that reason the handling is >paramount along with ride quality and stability, and while power is >important it cannot be achieved via huge engines due to the >$5 per >gallon fuel prices. >GT however represents racing those cars on a track, and in every test >I've seen the Viper and Corvette fall far short of the point-to-point >performance of Porsche, Nissan, Honda and the like. The reviewers >have, in other tests, enormously enjoyed these cars, but on European >roads and/or circuit racing they're just not designed to do that. >That's not to say the U.S. couldn't make a car which was capable of >that, but it wouldn't necessarily appeal to their market so the risk >of a flop is high. All countries make very good cars, but targetted >toward different markets and tastes - for that reason we laugh at each >others :-) >Cheers! >John

Quoted text (10 lines)

>> >spent be a big deal. Take a trip down to your local drag strip and >> >check out what fast is. Or, just watch Le Mans next year and watch >> >Porsche win for the 17th time even in the face of Toyota and Nissan's >> >best efforts. >> Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. >Err..toyota *led* Le Mans, broke down and Porsche won..Mazda won in '91 >:-)

ROTARY POWAH!

On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:57:56 +0100, Matthew Knutsen >Err..toyota *led* Le Mans, broke down and Porsche won..Mazda won in '91 Yep, twas Mazda I was thinking of. Cheers! John

Quoted text (8 lines)

>Path: >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:28:19 GMT, >>Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. >Ford won Lemans and Ford has far more world championships than Honda.

And in both Ford cases, these were european run operations ;) Z.

>Yeah US cars are really made for high speed driving, ever seen a Jeep >wranglar going at 100 mph on the highway... Outside of the U.S. 100mph isn't high speed driving. On my drive to work every morning a sizable percentage of cars on the highway are doing 100mph or thereabouts. Cheers! John

Quoted text (9 lines)

>>Yeah US cars are really made for high speed driving, ever seen a Jeep >>wranglar going at 100 mph on the highway... >Outside of the U.S. 100mph isn't high speed driving. On my drive to >work every morning a sizable percentage of cars on the highway are >doing 100mph or thereabouts. >Cheers! >John

i dare say you're not living near the M25 ;) Z.

Yeah rrrrright - ever driven real a car? >I think that GPL sucks big time.....there is only one racing game, and its >not a PC game >I am talking about PSX Gran Turismo; the best car game ever. >I wonder why they doesnt make a similar PC-car racinggame. >NFS 3 sucks as well, graphics are great but the feeling sucks compare to GT. >GT rules, imagine GT 2 ! Megacool

what like the all conquerring Viper, or the Panoz or..... :-)

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>I know it's probably a troll, but hey, who really cares. I think that >>Gran Turismo is a piece-o-crap. Played it only at a friends. Stupid >>Mad Catz wheel or whatever did not help at all, had to go back to the >>idiotic game pad. Besides for the slow low-res graphics, I hated the >>fact that only the Japanese cars could be made fast. Sure, add a >>turbo or whatever to your CRX, but heaven help you if you want a >>blower for your Camaro. Oh well, guess they had to make sure that >>those little rice burners were faster somehow. Oh, and where were the >>great fun to modify European cars. Who knows? >Not meaning to troll.. but the problem is the rest of the world laughs

quite >openly at American cars. >Sorry, >Z.

>>Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. >Ford won Lemans and Ford has far more world championships than Honda. "Ford" in that sense means "Cosworth" who are European (or were until Volkswagen sold them just recently). Cheers! John

>what like the all conquerring Viper, or the Panoz or..... :-) If you mean in the FIA Champ's, do you mean the european run vipers and the european run Panoz cars? Z.

I live in CT, home of SUVs and slow ass grandmas

Quoted text (9 lines)

>>Yeah US cars are really made for high speed driving, ever seen a Jeep >>wranglar going at 100 mph on the highway... >Outside of the U.S. 100mph isn't high speed driving. On my drive to >work every morning a sizable percentage of cars on the highway are >doing 100mph or thereabouts. >Cheers! >John

With a 2 to 3 tons boat (all the SUVs), 100 mph is very high

>If you mean in the FIA Champ's, do you mean the european run vipers and the >european run Panoz cars? I suspect Lindsay was taking the piss. Panoz don't win anything that Mercedes or, for that matter Porsche, don't give them by making mistakes. The Vipers are smooth tho... ORECA do well with them M

Quoted text (9 lines)

>>>Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. >>Ford won Lemans and Ford has far more world championships than Honda. >"Ford" in that sense means "Cosworth" who are European (or were until >Volkswagen sold them just recently). >Cheers! >John

Speaking of FIA, I don't see the Steward/Minardi come even close to Ferrari or Mercedes. And in rally who dominates? Audi, Mitsu and Subaru. If not for the Cosworth Escort Ford wouldn't be even on the chart

>so if it came down to it I'm sure the US could put together a car to >>compete with anything else the world has to offer. >>At least that's my 2-cents. >Perhaps, but why don't they? Money. If the car companies WANTED to, they could probably produce cars that wouldn't wear out after 5-6 years. But, if people kept their OLDER cars, the companies wouldn't sell NEW cars. As far as performance, it's probably because the laws wouldn't let you produce a 200mph car with about 10 mpg... Just an opinion. I'm sorta ANTI-establishment... ________ Eldred Pickett e-mail address altered to deter spammers - remove the '*' to reply Put your message in a modem - and throw it into the ***-sea...

Quoted text (14 lines)

>>>I have yet to see a comparison where a Viper >>>finished last in lap times. In fact, the Viper GTS was faster around >>>Willow Springs than an 1100 cc Suzuki motorcycle. As for sticking in >>>a couple of corners, does Hockenheim have enough corners for you? >>No, Hockenheim is an engine track, everyone knows that. The Viper was >>pitted alongside the Corvette in a "GT" showdown around a circuit in >>England, good mix of corners and straights. The Porsche Carrera GT was >>top, a fraction ahead of the Nissan Skyline GT-R. Behind that was >>Ferrari, Honda NSX, couple of others I don't recall and the Viper >>bringing up the rear. Comments - damn powerful, handles like a boat >>and the power is not delivered to the road well. >Good call, is sad that a little Geo Metro can out brake a 70K car

Oh yeah, like, for sure man. That Geo Metro is one fast car, able to strike fear into the hearts of Viper owners everywhere! Clark

ABS don't help braking distance in dry condition

Quoted text (20 lines)

>That's cause the viper doesn't have ABS....if it did....look out....in >MT's annual supercar shootout (last 2 years) the viper was just about >the best overall, falling behind only in braking and wet skidpad (it's >just too wide..:) >>>Geez dude, you quote a 175 line post then add only this? >>>> Stock Viper GTS - 1.01....that's from MT....R&T tested .98... >>>My thought on the Viper GTS is it looks real nice, but is too large, too >>>heavy, and has small brakes. >>>Kurt >> even if it is 1.01, it still didn't beat a car that is 30K cheaper and

you >>know what's sad? The R2 can out brake the Viper with no problem

>ABS don't help braking distance in dry condition It certainly prevents the wheels locking, even in the dry. the only time where ABS actually offers a disadvantage, is on gravel. Z.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Clark Archer) wrote:

Quoted text (20 lines)

>On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 05:29:51 GMT, Cossie <[email hidden]> wrote: >>In article <[email hidden]>, >> [email hidden] (Clark Archer) wrote: >>>On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:28:19 GMT, [email hidden] (John >>>Wallace) wrote: >>>>On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:02:10 GMT, [email hidden] >>>>(Clark Archer) wrote: >>Let see a stock viper can go what .94 or .96 G, a R2 RX-7 can go 1.00 G so >>thank you very much. Viper GTS is about 70K, back in 95, the 92 was like >>47500 >Yep, that Mazda should be faster around a parking lot. Too bad real >tracks aren't much like parking lots. How about Laguna Seca or even >Road America. I don't think the RX-7 is going to win either one of >those. Is the R2 option something like if you get a Viper GTS-R which >has even more power and better grip?

Dude ever been to auto x or any of the SCCA races, 3rd gen or even the first 2 gen of RX-7 kicks almost everyone's butt. In SS, even a C5 can't catch up. Also the R2 is like the sportier version of the RX-7. It has a tune suspension and a strut tower brace. stuff like that. Same power plant

Quoted text (22 lines)

>>ago in a full bodied, full interior Porsche 911. Some guy in a 3rd gen mod >>RX-7 ran a 10 something in a quarter mile. Oh and did I mention they both >>use independent suspension >Yes, and I am saying that locally we have cars that are much faster >than that. They of course would not be allowed to run in the battle >of the imports though because they are not imports. >>Corners don't go with American cars >Thank you for proving my point about stereotyping American cars as >unable to handle being the opinion of the majority of people. >>>It wouldn't really matter, I have seen Camaros turning high 6s in the >>>quarter mile. By "slightly" modified I meant nitrous oxide or a >>>supercharger setup. Believe what you want to, but displacement always >>>wins. It really is that simple. Take two motors. Modify both to >>>equal levels. The bigger one makes more torque and more power. There >>>is a great misconception that American cars do not and/or cannot be >>>made to handle well if not exceptionally. >>ahem HELLO DISPLACMENT DON'T MATTER. the Mazda that won in the 91 LeMans

was >>a 2.6 L NA engine. It was pumping out 655hp so thank you very much. And a >>twin turbo 93 RX-7 pumps out 255 stock in a 1.3L engine. What do you have to

Quoted text (10 lines)

>>say huh >You just don't get it. You are bragging about 9 and 10 second quarter >mile times with small displacement engines. I am pointing out that >large displacement engines turn faster quarter miles. The RX-7 stock >rotary 255 hp is very unimpressive when you realize that it is backed >up by only 210 lb/ft or so of torque at a sky high RPM. Compare that >to the stock LS1 motor available in the current Camaro. Much more >horsepower and much more torque for the Camaro. Yes, the Camaro has a >bigger motor. Duh.

Camaro SS has like 100 extra hp and torque on the RX-7, but guess what, they are still slower than the RX-7 in the drag strip stock to stock. Also you have to remember the RX-7 is 2650lbs, not a 3700lbs boat.

Quoted text (24 lines)

>>>>>check out what fast is. Or, just watch Le Mans next year and watch >>>>>Porsche win for the 17th time even in the face of Toyota and Nissan's >>>>>best efforts. >>>>Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. >>>Bzzzt! Wrong! Porsche won the '98 race at Le Mans. Toyota may have >>>won the race before, but when they have won it 16 times, please come >>>back and say so. Yes, Honda (a favorite company of mine as far as >>>racing goes) have done their share of dominating the racing world at >>>one point or another. Let me ask you, who built the motor which >>>dominated F1 before Honda entered? (I'll give you a hint: it's a >>>German manufacturer whose name starts with the letter 'P'). Luckily >>>for Honda, they did not have their engine penalized in CART for having >>>too much power. Honda, I would claim, is the exception rather than >>>the rule for Japanese companies in racing. >>Honduh?? racing?? in reverse maybe, since when did real race cars become >>FWD? >Well, now you are just being ignorant. Honda engines are at the >forefront of racing, having won the CART Manufacturer's Championship 2 >out of the last three engines. And unlike Ford and Mercedes, they >don't hire out the work.

Mugen help produce their engine, not Honda alone

Quoted text (16 lines)

>>>>>cars roll up next to me on the highway and try to start a "race". >>Dude Honduhs are maden't to be raced. NA 4 bangers aren't going to beat a >>turbocharged engine >Yes, I agree. That is why I laugh when that occurs instead of >"racing" them. >>You need to visit this guy in FL, he has a 10 sec drag car with full body >>and full interior, no nitrous. and should i repeat again it is a 1.3 LITER >>TWIN TURBO. Dynoed at like 400 some horses at the rear wheel >Wow, not a whole 400 hp to the wheels. There are over a dozen V8 >powered cars owned by people whom I personally know with more power >than that. I would not be too interested in driving or flying to FL >to see a 10 second car when there are much faster ones locally.

Yes it is 400 hp to the rear wheels, he has it somewhere in his webpage. But you have to remember the big V8s with bunch of power are a LOT heavier than a 3rd gen RX-7. The Rustangs are like 4000 lbs if u have like 400 hp on it. The RX-7 is still 2800 lbs with all the upgrades to get 400 hp

Quoted text (8 lines)

>>>>>The rest of the world really laughs at modified little Japanese cars >>>>>with stickers and the like. If Gran Turismo let you do anything >>>>>decent to the American cars in the game they would be far faster than >>>>>the precious Skyline. >>I don't see a stock C4 beat anything out there >You must not get out much.

SCCA Autocross Racing, C4 always round out the bottom. RX-7, NSX and the 300 ZX TT are always on top of the C4.

Quoted text (18 lines)

>>>>the power of a U.S. muscle car with a car designed to appeal to >>>>Japanese youth and claim it to be better. When comparing like with >>>>like I can guarantee you that while several U.S. cars are easily >>>>superior to, say, the Skyline in outright acceleration (mainly due to >>>>the Skyline's 280bhp government imposed limit), there is _nothing_ >>>>which compares to a Skyline on a point to point drive along normal >>>>roads (that's roads with corners). That's tough for me to say since I >>>>would like the European pedigree of Ferrari, Porsche etc to reign >>>>supreme, but the Skyline is the most awesome car I've tried, with >>>>immense confidence inspiring poise and grip. I've never been lucky >>>>enough to try a Ferrari, but even fans of the Ferrari F355 who've >>>>driven both say the Skyline is at least the equal in performance >>>>(although it is massively inferior in the looks department!). :-) >>F355 is one of the slowest of the Ferrari bunch, wanna hop in a F40 or >>F50... >Nah, you take the F40, I'll take the Mercedes CLK GTR. Lots of luck.

Sure buy me one and we can race....

Quoted text (14 lines)

>>>>Don't knock the "silly Japanese cars", they're a hell of a lot better >>>>than you think. You don't dominate the World Rally Championship by >>>>building gutless, poor-handling cars. >>>What does a WRC car have in common with the local boy racer's Integra >>>with 400 sticker horsepower and 145 rear wheel horsepower? >>American car company are too slow to even try to run in WRC. The only >>American car brand in WRC is the Ford Escort RS 2000 (COSSIE), we all know >>Ford didn't make that car... >Americans for the most part don't give rat's *ss about WRC. And in >American racing, Honda has been whooping Cosworth for the past three >years.

Honda in Rally??? with what car??? Del SOL? LoL >Clark A. (PS. My internet connection is faster than yours too!) But my car is faster

Quoted text (19 lines)

>>>>I have yet to see a comparison where a Viper >>>>finished last in lap times. In fact, the Viper GTS was faster around >>>>Willow Springs than an 1100 cc Suzuki motorcycle. As for sticking in >>>>a couple of corners, does Hockenheim have enough corners for you? >>>No, Hockenheim is an engine track, everyone knows that. The Viper was >>>pitted alongside the Corvette in a "GT" showdown around a circuit in >>>England, good mix of corners and straights. The Porsche Carrera GT was >>>top, a fraction ahead of the Nissan Skyline GT-R. Behind that was >>>Ferrari, Honda NSX, couple of others I don't recall and the Viper >>>bringing up the rear. Comments - damn powerful, handles like a boat >>>and the power is not delivered to the road well. >>Good call, is sad that a little Geo Metro can out brake a 70K car >Oh yeah, like, for sure man. That Geo Metro is one fast car, able to >strike fear into the hearts of Viper owners everywhere! >Clark

At least they can carry 5 passengers and still get 50 mpg. Enviormental friendly :P

Quoted text (35 lines)

>>>>As long as you define "fast" as being "in a straight line" then you >>>>may be correct, but stick a couple of corners in and all it would see >>>>of a 2 litre Renault Clio Williams would be the tail lights >>>>disappearing over the horizon. >>>That is forever the battle cry of wimpy cars. Yeah, but I'll beat you >>>in the corners!!! What track was that comparo on? >>That comparison was done on _normal_roads_, you know those things that >>we all drive every day? You've never seen a Viper come last at Le >>Mans, but how many times do you drive Le Mans every year? The Clio is >>no slouch, <5s from 0-60, but it's forte is handling, and it flies >>around country roads like it's on rails. >>>I have yet to see a comparison where a Viper >>>finished last in lap times. In fact, the Viper GTS was faster around >>>Willow Springs than an 1100 cc Suzuki motorcycle. As for sticking in >>>a couple of corners, does Hockenheim have enough corners for you? >>No, Hockenheim is an engine track, everyone knows that. The Viper was >>pitted alongside the Corvette in a "GT" showdown around a circuit in >>England, good mix of corners and straights. The Porsche Carrera GT was >>top, a fraction ahead of the Nissan Skyline GT-R. Behind that was >>Ferrari, Honda NSX, couple of others I don't recall and the Viper >>bringing up the rear. Comments - damn powerful, handles like a boat >>and the power is not delivered to the road well. >That is really funny. Even though American magazines may not say the >Viper is the best handling, they consistently get the best lap times >in the Viper. Perhaps that comparison is a bit like the one I saw >where a 911 was being put against an RX-7, an NSX, and several other >Japanese cars, including the mighty Integra Type R. Basically in the >tape, the 911 just drove away, when suddenly on the last sap of the >race on the straightaway the driver suddenly "loses" it and plows into >a wall. The 911 ended up coming in last.

Well I have to agree with you on this one. Viper is the best car America has to offer. As for the brand new 911, is insane, not recommanded for rookie drivers. They are FAAASSSSTTT Well not really, if it is a good car company, they would push the car right to the limit. Apparently you have not driven a 2nd gen RX-7, 3rd gen RX-7, Miatas or the 300ZX TT

of course it does! if you're slamming the brake to the floor, the wheels are gonna lock w/out ABS...maybe in NORMAL braking (i.e. not finding out how fast it can absoultly stop from 60mph). With ABS, the pedal can be stomped into the floor (with some lock on lesser systems). But, without it, those wheels simply stop turing...

Quoted text (28 lines)

>ABS don't help braking distance in dry condition >>That's cause the viper doesn't have ABS....if it did....look out....in >>MT's annual supercar shootout (last 2 years) the viper was just about >>the best overall, falling behind only in braking and wet skidpad (it's >>just too wide..:) >>>>Geez dude, you quote a 175 line post then add only this? >>>>> Stock Viper GTS - 1.01....that's from MT....R&T tested .98... >>>>My thought on the Viper GTS is it looks real nice, but is too large, too >>>>heavy, and has small brakes. >>>>Kurt >>> even if it is 1.01, it still didn't beat a car that is 30K cheaper and >you >>>know what's sad? The R2 can out brake the Viper with no problem

>Mazda won the Le Mans race (my mistake), but "Ford's" wins, in engine >terms, came from Cosworth, not Ford. Not at Le Mans. Ford used the venerable 289 (like Shelby was using in the Cobras) in the GT-40 Mk. I which raced at Le Mans in '65. Other engines fitted were the 255cid "Indy" 4 cammer (the Cosworth Indy engine) and the 302 (in later years). The Indy engine was more powerful than the 289, but not reliable enough for 24 hr. racing. It is reported the 289's were tuned to produce 380~400 hp on Le Mans trim for reliability. Ford used the NASCAR spec 427 wedge (not the famous "cammer") both in the GT-40 Mk. II (1-2-3 in Le Mans in '66), and the Mk. IV which won in '67 with Foyt and Gurney driving, thus giving old man Ford what he wanted, a 100% American car with an American engine driven by Americans, this because the Mk I, Mk II, and Mk III GT-40s were English designed and built after Eric Broadley's Lola prototype. The Mk IV was designed and built by Kar Kraft in Michigan. Hope this helps, Doc phRed '95 - CSP #25 Team Monster Miata Stereo -- Never a late apex, never a dull moment.

> With a 2 to 3 tons boat (all the SUVs), 100 mph is very high The latest Aston Martin weighs 2 tonnes, is better equipped than the average living room and tops 170mph....in <5 seconds. Next! :-) Cheers! John PS - It costs more than the average living room as well, more than the average house too. Quite a lot more than the average house... :-)

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>ABS don't help braking distance in dry condition >It certainly prevents the wheels locking, even in the dry. >the only time where ABS actually offers a disadvantage, is on gravel. >Z.

Skidding will stop better in the dry

Quoted text (12 lines)

>> With a 2 to 3 tons boat (all the SUVs), 100 mph is very high >The latest Aston Martin weighs 2 tonnes, is better equipped than the >average living room and tops 170mph....in <5 seconds. >Next! :-) >Cheers! >John >PS - It costs more than the average living room as well, more than the >average house too. Quite a lot more than the average house... :-)

We are talking about automobiles under 150000 here

You are overstating the capabilities of the box-stock Clio Williams. It would be lucky to get under 6seconds to 60, mostly due to traction, let alone sub-5. But you are right that it has, several times, won out as best point-to-point car in certain *British* magazines. Why they should favour a French car is not clear to me. If you read some German magazines, you will see that the M3 (and now often the Herman Munster M-Coupe) gets the nod in similar comparisons, mostly for quality of steering. Once again, editorial bias usually surpasses objectivity. Don't get me wrong, I like the Clio and it is my kind of car, but any if these "country road" tests are no more objective or fair than those put forward by the Viper chest thumpers. I can find a nice piece of dirt track where I would easily beat the Clio on my mountain bike, to stretch the point. Hard to say. The most powerful engines of the Turbo era tended to go bang a lot. Perhaps I'm wrong, but 84-86 was TAG engined McLarens at the top at the end of the season, an from 87 onwards it was turbo and NA Honda engines. Sure Berger's BMW-Benetton had a hell of a lot of power, but it didn't always achieve much. Renault lacked consistency in the Renault and Lotus chassis. Besides, those years were so close it's hard to really say who "dominated". Stephen

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> >Let me ask you, who built the motor which >> >dominated F1 before Honda entered? (I'll give you a hint: it's a >> >German manufacturer whose name starts with the letter 'P'). >Heh. Nope. The germans called it a Porsche, when in fact it wass Swiss >made...Hell, they even call the McLarens "mercedes", just like the >saubers..

Hey, there's a lot of German material in the FO 110 engine. O.k., I admit most of the "material" is money, but anyway. :) And I'm sure Mr. Illien speaks also German. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

I don't know. I saw a race where a Viper GTS lost because their brakes were overheating. As I recall, a 911 ended up beating them, no doubt because of superior braking. Kurt

AAAHHH! No, no, no. Go sit in the corner for 10 minutes. ANY book or race driver will say that is flat out wrong.

More like the whole car, the 99 Turbo AWD 911 Carrerra are very very fast. The only bad thing they did to the car was the headlight design, it looks too much like a boxster

Quoted text (13 lines)

>I don't know. I saw a race where a Viper GTS lost because their brakes >were overheating. As I recall, a 911 ended up beating them, no doubt >because of superior braking. >Kurt >> That's cause the viper doesn't have ABS....if it did....look out....in >> MT's annual supercar shootout (last 2 years) the viper was just about >> the best overall, falling behind only in braking and wet skidpad (it's >> just too wide..:)

of course at 100 mph skidding is not as fast, but if u are talking about 50 or less to 0, regular brakes is better than ABS. Actually is the best to slam on the brakes hard, release it when it is about to lock and hit it hard again

Quoted text (7 lines)

>AAAHHH! No, no, no. Go sit in the corner for 10 minutes. ANY book or race >driver will say that is flat out wrong. >> Skidding will stop better in the dry

>Actually, in a perverse twist of logic, the Swiss and Germans pay a huge >premium for American SUVs and Minivans. They can't get enough of them. >I've seen Grand Cherokees listing for the same as Audi S4s, and they are >selling like hotcakes. Yeah...and even over here, it's said that they make something like 30% pure profit on each of those tarted-up trucks.

>>I have yet to see a comparison where a Viper >>finished last in lap times. In fact, the Viper GTS was faster around >>Willow Springs than an 1100 cc Suzuki motorcycle. As for sticking in >>a couple of corners, does Hockenheim have enough corners for you? OK, motorcycle guy here to further muddle this mess. =8^P Is this the test that one of the the car mags did (R&T?), and gave the Viper the victory in spite of the fact that it blew up? That was laughable. The Suzuki would easily turn laps like it was doing for as long as you had a crew to put fuel, fresh *** and brakes on it. Suzuki themselves set 24 hour lap records with GSXR's. I also saw the top speed test on Motor Trend TV a couple of weeks ago. Sure enough, the Viper won, beating Porsche and Ferrari, but guess what? They drove out of there, and the Viper went home on the back of a rollback... again. I like the Viper, and I like Chrsyler for having the balls to make it. It's brutally fast, and the GTS is a stunning in-your-face to computer styling, but it's definitely no world class car. The fact that it siezes or at least expunges oil or coolant all over itself and the road every time it's pressed hard is plenty proof of that. -- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 [address restored] http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

well the GP cars maybe but the GT40 had nothing to do with cosworth..... good honest American cubic inches (not that I'm into Fords you understand!!! Chevvies rule!! :-D )

Quoted text (9 lines)

>>>Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. >>Ford won Lemans and Ford has far more world championships than Honda. >"Ford" in that sense means "Cosworth" who are European (or were until >Volkswagen sold them just recently). >Cheers! >John

that depends on whether you lock the brakes or not - for that average schmo it does...

no it won't...... if it did ALL racers would blast up to a corner, lock the brakes - hey presto, no overtaking under braking and shortest braking distance....

that's called cadence braking and is what was taught in all advance driving courses before ABS - and requires skill, knowledge (coeffecients of friction etc) and finess to do properly and, when done in certain situations by VERY experienced drivers non AS can _just_ outperform ABS, but for the average schmo (and that includes me and probably you :-) ) ABS out performes non-ABS evry time. Its a "no brainer" - need to stop - just stomp on the pedal! :-)

They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at least 100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company

Jacques did it last here in Jerez when he jumped the grass

>>a wall. The 911 ended up coming in last. >Well I have to agree with you on this one. Viper is the best car America has >to offer. As for the brand new 911, is insane, not recommanded for rookie >drivers. They are FAAASSSSTTT The latest 911s are also uncrashable, or the nearest thing you'll get to it. Full throttle, full lock on a wet road and it doesn't break traction. Technology manages to keep even rich idiots on the road :-) Cheers! John

>>PS - It costs more than the average living room as well, more than the >>average house too. Quite a lot more than the average house... :-) > We are talking about automobiles under 150000 here So did I miss the "rules" discussion then, or do people not like the big, butch, bad-boy Viper being trumped ;-) Cheers! John

On 28 Oct 1998 19:33:16 GMT, "Stephen Ferguson" >But you are right that it has, several times, won out as best >point-to-point car in certain *British* magazines. Why they should favour >a French car is not clear to me. If you read some German magazines, you >will see that the M3 (and now often the Herman Munster M-Coupe) gets the >nod in similar comparisons, mostly for quality of steering. Having driven both I'd go for the Clio, but the M3 is a damn fine car. Perhaps just a shade "too" refined to be really fun though. I'm surprised the Germans would go for the M3 as tops given that the Nissan Skyline holds the Nurburgring all-time lap record for production cars (or did until recently when it was beaten by the Caterham 7R - yet another "silly little car" which has no torque to craps all over the Viper 0-60 (3.7s....) and which the Viper couldn't even get close to around the Nurburgring - who was that saying that "torque is everything"? I guess that explains why the track records on circuits resembling real roads are held by Japanese or European cars...). Skylines in Japan are doing <10s for the standing quarter mile (over a second quicker than a McLaren F1....) and 0-60 times which would put many bikes to shame. 1.3 seconds 0-30mph, 3.5 seconds 0-60mph. Not only that, but the power is _usable_. It doesn't arrive in massive gouts requiring you to back off, and in corners it is massively confidence inspiring. Where a 911 starts to bite the Skyline's chassis and computer control balance out the traction, acceleration and braking leaving you to get on with where it's headed. Not one for the purists, but the purists are still left in your wake :-) I just wish they'd let someone else design the body - yuck! :-) On team *** McLaren reliability won through (and having Prost and Lauda helped more than a little!). On purely engine performance the Brabham-BMW was developing 1300hp and was king of the hill (this is early eighties remember) but had a *** habit of grenading (or being speared by Eliseo Salazar...). Cheers! John

>They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at least >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them made by a certain Bavarian outfit... Cheers! John

>>They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at least

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company >AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them >made by a certain Bavarian outfit... >Cheers! >John

BMW made one, Ferrari has a few if I am not wrong, Mazda has 3 already.

Quoted text (10 lines)

>>>PS - It costs more than the average living room as well, more than the >>>average house too. Quite a lot more than the average house... :-) >> We are talking about automobiles under 150000 here >So did I miss the "rules" discussion then, or do people not like the >big, butch, bad-boy Viper being trumped ;-) >Cheers! >John

For the price of the Viper, you can get the 911 Turbo RWD or even AWD if you're lucky. So why spend the money on a sports car when you can spend it on a super car

> BMW made one, Ferrari has a few if I am not wrong, Mazda has 3 already. BMW made two - the engine in the M3 Evo produced 320hp from 3.2 litres (European spec of course...!) and the BMW engined McLaren F1 produced 100bhp/litre also. Which were the Ferrari and Mazda production cars? Cheers! John

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at least > >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company > AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them > made by a certain Bavarian outfit... > Cheers! > John

And a couple of Honda VTEC/VTI engines, the 1.6 and 1.8`s ? Actually, some of the "limited" edition Mitsubishi`s will do that too, only available in Japan though :-( Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy

> >They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at least > >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company > AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them > made by a certain Bavarian outfit... The Escort Cosworth engine? The one in Nissan Skyline GT-R? A non-turbo might be a tougher call. -- Anssi Lehtinen

Quoted text (20 lines)

>Path: >> >They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at > least >> >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company >> AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them >> made by a certain Bavarian outfit... >> Cheers! >> John >And a couple of Honda VTEC/VTI engines, the 1.6 and 1.8`s ? >Actually, some of the "limited" edition Mitsubishi`s will do that too, >only available in Japan though :-(

Whn Honda withdrew from F1 in the 90's saying the lack of turbo technology was a downder, one guy said: They'd like to stay, and see engine regs move to 1.5L Turbo's. Honda hoped to get 1 Hp for every CC. %) Z.

there isn't anything in the Viper's class that can touch it - not German, not Japanese, not European...... and don't they just look great!! :-D

Quoted text (7 lines)

>>what like the all conquerring Viper, or the Panoz or..... :-) >The same Viper and Panoz that are being whipped by the McLaren and >Mercedes...? ;-) >Cheers! >John

> >They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at least > >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company > AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them > made by a certain Bavarian outfit... And V-TEC Honda motors, but the power isn't very flexible Stephen

I hope you are talking about drag racing. In road racing, no. Of course it can beat a C5, but who couldn't.

Quoted text (16 lines)

>there isn't anything in the Viper's class that can touch it - not German, >not Japanese, not European...... and don't they just look great!! :-D >>>what like the all conquerring Viper, or the Panoz or..... :-) >>The same Viper and Panoz that are being whipped by the McLaren and >>Mercedes...? ;-) >>Cheers! >>John

Quoted text (10 lines)

>> >They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at >least >> >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company >> AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them >> made by a certain Bavarian outfit... >And V-TEC Honda motors, but the power isn't very flexible >Stephen

They have lots of RPM to works with, if i am not wrong about 8500

> > BMW made one, Ferrari has a few if I am not wrong, Mazda has 3 already. > BMW made two - the engine in the M3 Evo produced 320hp from 3.2 litres > (European spec of course...!) and the BMW engined McLaren F1 produced > 100bhp/litre also. Are we talking normally aspirated here? If not...a stock Volvo 850/S70 Turbo, at 2.3 litres, produces a claimed 222 horsepower, which is damn close to the magic formula. With any one of several simple upgrades ($400-$1200 US) you can easily exceed the 100hp/litre ratio. Combine a couple of upgrades and you can get over 300hp. -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Does that make it an orphan? Just kidding. Kurt

>If you get an NSX I'll just bring my street driven daily driver, no >need for a Viper. Then you're even more deluded than you appear. An advertisment quotes "Power is nothing without control" - one of the truisms of racing. You talk about power, everyone else is blending the two. Cheers! John

>Americans for the most part don't give rat's *ss about WRC. And in >American racing, Honda has been whooping Cosworth for the past three >years. And that proves the quality of American GT cars.....how? I think we need to call a halt to this before you start gettin' your *** on the table or telling us your dad is bigger than anyone else's... Bye, John

>That is really funny. Even though American magazines may not say the >Viper is the best handling, they consistently get the best lap times >in the Viper. The only way that will happen is if they "lap" at the local drag strip. How many seconds are you going to lose cumulatively through poor cornerning when the straights are short and the corners plentiful? Hint, a lot more than you will gain on the straights. As tested out of the box cars like the Clio do not handle badly at all. Yeah, before they equal Cosworth. Drive the Subaru Impreza if you can, preferably the WRC, McRae or 22B versions. I'm not sure how well it is suited to U.S. highway driving (the 22B in particular is very stiffly sprung) but in terms of bang for the buck there's little to touch it. I'd love to take it on a jaunt down Highway 101 through Oregon, that was a nice road in places. Cheers! John

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>If you get an NSX I'll just bring my street driven daily driver, no >>need for a Viper. >Then you're even more deluded than you appear. >An advertisment quotes "Power is nothing without control" - one of the >truisms of racing. You talk about power, everyone else is blending the >two. >Cheers! >John

Remember in good ol` Need for Speed 1 Video, the guy said "It is almost impossible to break loose a NSX unless you do stupid things"

<Gulp!> So why did the gits stop then? My Accord should have 1,800hp :-) Cheers! John

Ah...I understand. You meant to write "would want to touch it..." ;-) Cheers! John PS - The Viper was LAST in it's class, and I think the Porsche that came first looks a hell of a lot better as well even setting aside the name and heritage.

ouch.

Hah Hah !!! :-)...no I really did mean nothing could touch it - in all the reports/races I've seem the Vipers are king of the GT2 class - In all the races I've watched and been to (admittedly not all the GT races around!!) the Vipers have pasted the Porkers. I was at Le Mans this year when they came home 11th overall (1st in gt2) - the only non GT1 car infront of them was a Ferrari SP333, and in a recent GT race at Donnington in the UK a Viper came third overall, behind a McLaren and Porker - beating many GT1 cars in the process - not sure where you got the last in class thing..... -Lindsay

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>there isn't anything in the Viper's class that can touch it - not German, >>not Japanese, not European...... and don't they just look great!! :-D >Ah...I understand. You meant to write "would want to touch it..." ;-) >Cheers! >John >PS - The Viper was LAST in it's class, and I think the Porsche that >came first looks a hell of a lot better as well even setting aside the >name and heritage.

The comparison was based on road cars, where the Viper is last in it's class against equivalent GT models from other manufacturers. When you RACE a car it's a whole different ballgame, and what appears on the track will bear no relation to what's on the road. What really lets down the road car is the barge-like handling and auto 'box, and I'm sure you'll agree those will be first kicked out of any race car. The racecars come down to who best prepares them, not how good the road car is. Cheers! John

Hey John, I'll agree to a certains extent that the preparation has a lot to do with it - but you have to have something good to start off with.... that doesn't mean a good road car, it just means the basis of a good race car. I've been talking race cars all along here - so we may hav been talking at cross purposes througout this post !! :-) I still think its a great road car though - and much less common than a Porker - and with its engine in the right place!!! Hah hah :-D cheers -Lindsay >>In all the races I've watched and been to (admittedly not all the GT races >>around!!) the Vipers have pasted the Porkers. I was at Le Mans this year >>when they came home 11th overall (1st in gt2) - the only non GT1 car infront

Quoted text (17 lines)

>>of them was a Ferrari SP333, and in a recent GT race at Donnington in the >>UK a Viper came third overall, behind a McLaren and Porker - beating many >>GT1 cars in the process - not sure where you got the last in class >>thing..... >The comparison was based on road cars, where the Viper is last in it's >class against equivalent GT models from other manufacturers. When you >RACE a car it's a whole different ballgame, and what appears on the >track will bear no relation to what's on the road. >What really lets down the road car is the barge-like handling and auto >'box, and I'm sure you'll agree those will be first kicked out of any >race car. The racecars come down to who best prepares them, not how >good the road car is. >Cheers! >John

What did the Toyota Tacoma have in common with a race car? look what Rod Millen did to it. Same thing with the Swift

Yeah, but those were pure "silhouette" racers, that have very liveral rules as to what "prduction based" means. Much of the Viper (and many other good production based racers - including Prokers!! :-)) is very production based and the regs are no where near as liberal as those for "silhouette" cars.. -Lindsay

dude look at the taurus in NASCAR, do they look anything like the ones on the road. no i don't think so...

Auto box? Don't know which Viper they were testing with an automatic, but even if it is available (I'm not the kind of guy to memorize option sheets) I doubt many leave the factory with an auto box. Not that I like the Viper much, since it is basically a beautiful concept car with a truck engine and sub-standard chassis. Stephen

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at least > >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company > AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them > made by a certain Bavarian outfit... > Cheers! > John

Geez, you guys completely ignored Lotus! Even the little Elise they put into production get 190 bhp from a 1.8L NA engine. I would have to check to be absolutely sure but I believe the Esprit Turbo put out 142 bhp/L from a 2.0L engine. That engine held the bhp/L record until recent years excepting of course the 1.3L, 255bhp Mazda rotary. Some have been tuned to well over 600bhp (still 1.3L). -- Tim Schuh ***el.net

..and your point is? Nascar cars (and NHRA funny cars for that matter) , became far from production cars a very long time ago (when they started busting the wheel centres out of the standard production wheels due to cornereing forces they were starting to generate in the fifties, if I remember correctly) The piont I was making was that the Tacoma was made to very liberal (not liveral - my typing never has been good -much better with a spanner than a keyboard!! :-)) interpretation of what "production based" means - so are Nascar cars. In GT2, where the Viper dominates, there is very much more of the original production car left in the race car. cheers -Lindsay

wrong..the chassis are pretty much different. The thing that remains the smae is the body. 80% of the chassis is different than the one on the street

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > >They can get like 1 hp per cubic inch hehe that's sad..... Try having at > least > > >100 hp per liter before you call them a good car company > > AFAIK only two production engines ever managed this - both of them > > made by a certain Bavarian outfit... > > Cheers! > > John > And a couple of Honda VTEC/VTI engines, the 1.6 and 1.8`s ? > Actually, some of the "limited" edition Mitsubishi`s will do that too, > only available in Japan though :-( > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy

The relatively new Volvo T4 engine gives out 200hp/1800cc. That counts? /petern

street I think you'll find that under the fia gt2 rules there is a lot of modification allowed but not change - and the chassis has to remain intact and original to that which is homologated Appendix J Articles 251 & 258.... "Chassis: The overall structure of the car around which are assembled the mechanical components and the bodywork including any structural part of the said structure." "1.5 Original: As fitted to the road registered FIA homologated car." "3.6.1 - Strengthening of the chassis and bodywork is allowed provided that the material used follows the _original_ shape and is in direct contact with it." - i.e the ORIGINAL MUST REMAIN "10.3 Suspension type and mounting (Class 2): 10.3.1 - All suspension components, with the exception of parts specifically mentioned, must be _original_ equipment supplied by the manufacturer or homologated. These parts may be strengthened provided the original part can still be identified." "10.7 Steering (Class 2): 10.7.1 - All steering components, with the exception of the steering ratio, must be _original_ equipment supplied by the manufacturer. These parts may be strengthened provided the original part can still be identified." transmissons are free as long as they are of the same type as original (2 wheel,rear wheel drive etc) and engine mods are free, but orignal engine must be retained in the same orientation and possition as original. so..... whilst 80% of the car may be modified, substantially more than 20% of the _original_ must remain, and be identifiable as such. Returning to my original argument - I never claimed that the bog standard road car was a good race car, what I did say was that it formed the _basis_ of a good race car. What is a good road car is far to subjective a discussion to enter into! :-D later -Lindsay

>>spent be a big deal. Take a trip down to your local drag strip and >>check out what fast is. Or, just watch Le Mans next year and watch >>Porsche win for the 17th time even in the face of Toyota and Nissan's >>best efforts. >Toyota won Le Mans and Honda have dominated both F1 and CART. ..............not to mention, the "made in the USA" entries kept the LeMans fire teams pretty busy. Oh yea, then there is the GM powerd Marcos.................

>ABS don't help braking distance in dry condition .....or wet for that matter.

I'm a truck man, so I guess I'd dig it :) -Larry > Auto box? Don't know which Viper they were testing with an automatic, but > even if it is available (I'm not the kind of guy to memorize option sheets) > I doubt many leave the factory with an auto box. Not that I like the Viper > much, since it is basically a beautiful concept car with a truck engine and > sub-standard chassis.