WOW! GPL at 1280 resolution

GPL is absolutely AMAZING at 1280 resolution on my CL Graphics Blaster TNT with an average 30 fps outside of the***pit. Try doing that with your Voodoo! I have also not experienced any of the menu problems people have reported with their TNT. And also I noticed the fps doesn't change much from 800 resolution to 1280 resolution. There's only a +5 to +8 fps increase at the lower resolution. I am definitely buying GPL now. Way to go Papy! GTIracer

Two things, 1. I run GPL with one voodoo II (8mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks great,all graphics on at 30fps(in car)more with two in SLI. 2.The colours on my voodoo don`t look washed out like people keep saying?( I don`t want that f1rs arcade look),it looks great,very realistic. The in car fps are what really count and with two voodoo II`s that is better than TNT,so why pay for a TNT when GPL in SLI is better. After all,you won`t see much difference from 1024 to 1280 and if the fps is worse why bother with TNT?

. >>GPL is absolutely AMAZING at 1280 resolution on my CL Graphics >Blaster TNT

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>>with an average 30 fps outside of the***pit. Try doing that with >your >>Voodoo! >>I have also not experienced any of the menu problems people have >reported >>with their TNT. And also I noticed the fps doesn't change much from >800 >>resolution to 1280 resolution. There's only a +5 to +8 fps increase at >>the >>lower resolution. >Two things, >1. I run GPL with one voodoo II (8mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks >great,all graphics on at 30fps(in car)more with two in SLI. >2.The colours on my voodoo don`t look washed out like people keep

aying?( I >don`t want that f1rs arcade look),it looks great,very realistic. >The in car fps are what really count and with two voodoo II`s that is better >than TNT,so why pay for a TNT when GPL in SLI is better. >After all,you won`t see much difference from 1024 to 1280 and if the fps is >worse why bother with TNT?

>Two things, >1. I run GPL with one voodoo II (8mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks >great,all graphics on at 30fps(in car)more with two in SLI. I can run GPL with one Voodoo II (12mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks good, frame rate is great. The colors on my Voodo look like the contrast has been turned way up. ( Is this what is refered to as " Washed out " ?) I cannot stay on the road with the inside car view, I HAVE to use the arcade view. From there, the frame rates are simular ( 34> ). Why pay more for one card when you can pay the same for three? Well, usually, this would sound like a good thing. Except that PCI slots are at a priemiem these days, so why use an additional 2 slots when I can use just one AGP slot and get comparible frame rates and deeper color? Made sense to me. Question : If you were just purchasing a new system, and you had to choose between buying one card that did an excellent job of both 2 & 3D, or purchasing 1 card for 2d, and another 2 for 3d, which way would you go? You will be graded for honesty... :-) BTW: In order to "test" GPL on my new system, I yanked the CL VD2 out of my old P200 to see how it worked. Impressive. So I ordered a STB Black Magic to sit alongside my STB TNT, to have the best of both worlds. Then Papy released the OGL patch for GPL. I almost wish they hadn't did that. Now I have to come up with a reason to install the Black Magic when it arrives. Decisions, decisions...

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>>Two things, >>1. I run GPL with one voodoo II (8mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks >>great,all graphics on at 30fps(in car)more with two in SLI. >I can run GPL with one Voodoo II (12mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks good, >frame rate is great. >>2.The colours on my voodoo don`t look washed out like people keep >aying?( I >>don`t want that f1rs arcade look),it looks great,very realistic. >The colors on my Voodo look like the contrast has been turned way up. ( Is >this what is refered to as " Washed out " ?)

Probably. The V2 looks very good until you have the opportunity to compare it directly with what the TNT is doing. The V2 then suffers mightily by comparison, IMO. And that's the key word--"opinion". And that's not to say that the V2 looks "bad". It doesn't. Times change, and so do ideas of what's good. There was a time when I believed it couldn't get any better than my 16-color EGA Wonder. Again, that's a matter of opinion as to what's "better". And us hard-core types rarely make decisions based on economy or "value". If we were greatly concerned about that, we'd run away from flying and driving sims and take up chess and cards. :-) I'd get whatever I thought would give me the best performance for the games I liked best. That's why I have a V2 paired to a Viper550, and that's why I was ready to get another V2 card for SLI. Until I saw GPL running on the TNT compliments of the drivers Papy so graciously provided. Does that make sense? See earlier statement. For right now, I think the V2/TNT combo's just fine. But ask me again this time next week. :-) Jerry Morelock

Try 1280x1024.. something voodoo SLI can never do. They do.. try a side by side comparison and it will really look like it is. Kinda like seeing the world through dirty glasses, then finally being able to see without glasses all together. Because with one TNT you get an awesome 2D card... an awesome 3D card.. and an awesome AGP card. With Voodoo 2 SLI you get.. alot of boards in your computer generating too much heat for us overclockers... you get a big dent in your wallet (as much as 400 bucks for 2 voodoos).. and you get the best GLIDE only support. But that's just one API... You'll never know the difference no matter how many voodoo 2's you put in your 'puter. You see a major difference.. if you didn't, Papyrus wouldn't have wasted their time with the OpenGL patch for the TNT cards.. THEY see a difference, that's why they made the patch for us TNT owners.. so we could see the difference too. Be lucky that their aren't 2 AGP ports in my 'puter, otherwise Nvidia may just set up TNT cards in SLI mode!!! now THAT WOULD ROCK!!!!

>The colors on my Voodo look like the contrast has been turned way up. ( Is >this what is refered to as " Washed out " ?) Try setting the gamma for GLIDE at 0.95 This should get rid of the washed out look.

>GPL is absolutely AMAZING at 1280 resolution on my CL Graphics Blaster TNT >with an average 30 fps outside of the***pit. Try doing that with your >Voodoo! ahem....OUTSIDE the***pit??? What are you NUTS??? if you want outside the***pit views, the spend 129 on a freakin' Playstation and play Ridge Racer. outside-the-cockpit oh now I've heard it all. just for my info..does anyone REALLY use those tailgunner views for sim racing?

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>I have also not experienced any of the menu problems people have reported >with their TNT. And also I noticed the fps doesn't change much from 800 >resolution to 1280 resolution. There's only a +5 to +8 fps increase at the >lower resolution. >I am definitely buying GPL now. Way to go Papy! >GTIracer

I could care less about 2d performance, about the only 2d stuff I do anymore is reading news groups. Fer shure any new purchase will include a vid card combo that runs the Sims I enjoy(flight and racing) over desktop considerations. And since I'm not a Quaker or Unrealist...those geegaws won't influence my purchasing considerations either. Now for the real brutal honesty ain't got enough money for either choice....;( dave henrie

If you read the included readme you'd see that the mirrors have a large impact on framerate due to the current NVidia OpenGL drivers. The external view doesn't need to draw the mirrors, but once NVidia fixes their drivers this should no longer be an issue. - Eric

Yes I did as a matter of fact. And I even got a reply from them when I asked some questions about that Comparison... I didn't think it was fair.. and the 'numbers' they give are not a direct side by side comparison of quality.. only numbers... and also, it is a GameGauge benchmark.. not a 'this is how fast Quake 2 is with voodoo2 SLI and this is how fast TNT is both at 1024x768" Here is what they responded: <<<<snip>>>> I'll respond to your concerns point by point, but will say you seemed to completely misunderstood the benchmarks. The numbers are high for the Voodoo2 because it was tested with 2 cards in SLI mode. Plus, a Pentium II 450 was used. As for 3Dfx coming to us to do the tests, it's not unfair. 3Dfx is a client of ours and initially just wanted us to bless their own testing, but we decided that it would have been best to do the testing ourselves. In fact, I did the testing myself and can assure that no tweaking was done. By the way, NVIDIA and others are our clients too, and they could ask us to do the same testing for them, or doing something else. As for the Glide API comparison, I totally agree and that's why we only published the results on the detailed pages and not the main page. Since 3Dfx commissioned the test they decided they wanted to show Glide scores. I can understand why they would want to ,but I agree that comparing Glide to Direct3D is not really fair. That's why we also tested the Direct3D version and posted the scores those next to each other. Check out the benchmark pages on their site to see what they have to say about Glide being used in GameGauge benchmark testing. As for us being unfair in our benchmark testing, I totally disagree. We made sure that each cards' latest drivers and bios were used for each card. I downloaded them the day of the test myself. Also, as stated on our Benchmark Platform and Testing Procedures page I partitioned, formatted, and installed Win98 and the benchmark apps myself. After that I made an image of the drive and restored that image after each board was installed into the machine. I don't 3Dfx would have went through all this trouble if they did it themselves. So I think we made the testing much more fair. Voodoo2 SLI not using DirectX? Seems you're very confused about the GameGauge testing programs. They all require DirectX 5 to run. Only one of them actually supports the Glide API(which we already discussed above). I used the latest DirectX 5 drivers off 3Dfx' own site to run the test. And then I ran the tests again using their new DirectX 6 drivers. So the Voodoo2 SLI was using DirectX. As for a TNT being faster than a Voodoo2 SLI, that's just not possible. Now I could see a TNT being faster than one Voodoo2 card, but not 2 Voodoo2 cards in SLI. Even NVIDIA has stated that they're not faster than Vodoo2 SLI. You don't what a GameGauge benchmark is? Now, I think I know why you're having such hard problems understanding the testing. GameGauge benchmark testing is a suite of games that Computer *** World came up with. They thought that testing actual game performance is much better than relying on benchmarks like ZDBOp's 3D WinBench and with to regards to current games I would have to agree. So anyway, CGW got special versions of Turok, Forsaken, Incoming and F22 from the game developers that would output an average frame rate after the application was run. Then used the demos of GL Quake and Quake 2 and ran timedemo on them. All the scores outputted are in frame-per-second (FPS) and you total all the scores to get the final GameGauge score. I was under the impression everybody knew what GameGauge was and that the scores were in FPS. Evidently that's not case, but I do think you're in the minority or I would have received a lot more email. <<<<snip>>>> The point is.. at 1024x768 resolution.. a voodoo 2 SLI is faster than a TNT card.. BUT... these are tested on games that are orginally programmed FOR the voodoo cards.. and any resolution higher than that leaves voodoo 2 SLI out!!! They were not originally intended for a TNT card... games that are coming out now run better than even voodoo 2 SLI cards.. such as SHOGO (at least for me) and most likely Trespasser as well. Because they are built using DirectX 6 which runs awesome on a TNT card. Basically.. I'm getting tired of seeing tests done on games built around GLIDE APIs. Who in the hell started using Quake/ Forsaken/ Turok as test bases anyways???? Why not do a test on FlightSim 98... or SHOGO?? Oh gee.. maybe because a friggin Voodoo 2 in DUAL SLI mode will STILL suck eggs against anything with DirectX 6? QUIT TESTING GLIDE GAMES AGAINST TNT CARDS!!!! IT'S NOT ACCURATE!!! hear.. lemme test my 4x4 in the desert against your ferrari in the desert... gee.. looks like the ferrari didn't make it. the 4x4 is a faster vehicle than a ferrari. The desert tests prove it. YEAH... RIGHT!! That's what GameGauge is doing. get you through times of no woman better

You will be surprised how many of the fastest hot lappers use arcade view and joystick. For my part, the feeling of realism is more important than being the fastest lapper. But since the option is there, it is a personal preference I suppose. Nafi Coker > ahem....OUTSIDE the***pit??? What are you NUTS??? if you want outside >the***pit views, the spend 129 on a freakin' Playstation and play Ridge >Racer. >outside-the-cockpit oh now I've heard it all. > just for my info..does anyone REALLY use those tailgunner views for sim >racing?

<SNIP> Ok, but it IS ENTIRELY ACCURATE. If a game has BOTH Glide and Direct 3D support, then the point is what card runs it better, Voodoo or something else? Why cripple the Voodoo cards by forcing them to use D3D? You're missing THE advantage of the Voodoo cards, that they have a native programming capability and can do things better than Direct 3D can on the same card. On games that have only D3D support, then some other card may very well run it better. But if it's like, for example, F1RS that has both D3D and Glide modes, with a Voodoo 2 I'm gonna pick Glide. And with that one Glide is better than the D3D version, so a test on that game would be ENTIRELY ACCURATE to use the Glide mode on Voodoo 2 and D3D for everything else, you're finding out which card runs the game better, the API used isn't the point. Forcing the Voodoo 2 to use the D3D version in that test would be crippling it unfairly, since their is a way to get better performance on that card. Flightsim 98 only uses D3D, so the benchmark will also tell you which card runs it better. And if it's Jane's F15, then it's entirely accurate to note that there just isn't a D3D version, so the Glide mode is all there is. The thing is, your other analogy (other than trying to belittle the Voodoo cards while making the TNT the end-all be-all) is also demonstrating the the validity of the GameGauge and refuting your argument. If you take the 4x4 and the Ferrari to the desert, and take both to the racetrack, you'll notice that the Ferrari outperforms the 4x4 at the track, BUT the 4x4 can still run at the racetrack. This is D3D, TNT runs it but so does the Voodoo 2 (ditto with Open GL). But take both to the desert, and the Ferrari is unable to perform at all. This is Glide. If I want to play a Glide only game, then the "Ferrari" is really nice and pretty, but totally useless. Grasp this concept and you'll figure out why people own Voodoo 2's, and aren't impressed by a bunch of benchmarks saying card XYZ is 10% faster etc. etc. What you want is benchmarks rigging the tests so that the advantages of the Voodoo 2 aren't used, not a fair fight. Ken

>Try setting the gamma for GLIDE at 0.95 This should get rid of the washed >out look. Thanks, will give it a shot.

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> I could care less about 2d performance, about the only 2d stuff I do >anymore is >reading news groups. Fer shure any new purchase will include a vid card >combo >that runs the Sims I enjoy(flight and racing) over desktop considerations. >And >since I'm not a Quaker or Unrealist...those geegaws won't influence my >purchasing >considerations either. Now for the real brutal honesty > ain't got enough money for either choice....;( >dave henrie

But the problem there is that you HAVE to have some sort of 2d card. What else you going to hook the VD2 into? And since money is a concern, surely one card that did all would be less expensive than 3 cards. As to your game choices, I quite agree. If I can't fly it or drive it, forget it!

I do not race from the outside view. I only used the outside view for fps readings. Sorry I wasn't MORE EXPLICIT. --GTIracer

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>>GPL is absolutely AMAZING at 1280 resolution on my CL Graphics Blaster TNT >>with an average 30 fps outside of the***pit. Try doing that with your >>Voodoo! > ahem....OUTSIDE the***pit??? What are you NUTS??? if you want outside >the***pit views, the spend 129 on a freakin' Playstation and play Ridge >Racer. >outside-the-cockpit oh now I've heard it all. > just for my info..does anyone REALLY use those tailgunner views for sim >racing?

Let's not start a religious war :)

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>. >>>GPL is absolutely AMAZING at 1280 resolution on my CL Graphics >Blaster >TNT >>>with an average 30 fps outside of the***pit. Try doing that with >your >>>Voodoo! >>>I have also not experienced any of the menu problems people have >reported >>>with their TNT. And also I noticed the fps doesn't change much from >800 >>>resolution to 1280 resolution. There's only a +5 to +8 fps increase at >>>the >>>lower resolution. >>Two things, >>1. I run GPL with one voodoo II (8mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks >>great,all graphics on at 30fps(in car)more with two in SLI. >>2.The colours on my voodoo don`t look washed out like people keep >aying?( I >>don`t want that f1rs arcade look),it looks great,very realistic. >>The in car fps are what really count and with two voodoo II`s that is >better >>than TNT,so why pay for a TNT when GPL in SLI is better. >>After all,you won`t see much difference from 1024 to 1280 and if the fps

is >>worse why bother with TNT?

I didn't know there was an arcade view. I remember there was one in the demo but I thought they'd removed it for the full version. Is there one in the full version? Paul

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> >Two things, > >1. I run GPL with one voodoo II (8mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks > >great,all graphics on at 30fps(in car)more with two in SLI. > I can run GPL with one Voodoo II (12mb) at 1024x768 res and it looks good, > frame rate is great. > >2.The colours on my voodoo don`t look washed out like people keep > aying?( I > >don`t want that f1rs arcade look),it looks great,very realistic. > The colors on my Voodo look like the contrast has been turned way up. ( Is > this what is refered to as " Washed out " ?) > >The in car fps are what really count and with two voodoo II`s that is > better > >than TNT,so why pay for a TNT when GPL in SLI is better. > I cannot stay on the road with the inside car view, I HAVE to use the > arcade view. From there, the frame rates are simular ( 34> ). > Why pay more for one card when you can pay the same for three? Well, > usually, this would sound like a good thing. Except that PCI slots are at a > priemiem these days, so why use an additional 2 slots when I can use just > one AGP slot and get comparible frame rates and deeper color? Made sense to > me. > >After all,you won`t see much difference from 1024 to 1280 and if the fps is > >worse why bother with TNT? > Question : If you were just purchasing a new system, and you had to choose > between buying one card that did an excellent job of both 2 & 3D, or > purchasing 1 card for 2d, and another 2 for 3d, which way would you go? You > will be graded for honesty... :-) > BTW: In order to "test" GPL on my new system, I yanked the CL VD2 out of my > old P200 to see how it worked. Impressive. So I ordered a STB Black Magic > to sit alongside my STB TNT, to have the best of both worlds. Then Papy > released the OGL patch for GPL. I almost wish they hadn't did that. Now I > have to come up with a reason to install the Black Magic when it arrives. > Decisions, decisions...

MY GOD !!! That Ferrari sound, is it just me or is that the most spine tingling sound ever heard from PC speakers !! ( make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end , I LOVE IT ) Regards, Paul

says...

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>>>If you read the included readme you'd see that the mirrors >>>have a large impact on framerate due to the current NVidia >>>OpenGL drivers. The external view doesn't need to draw >>>the mirrors, but once NVidia fixes their drivers this >>>should no longer be an issue. >>I'd also like NVidia (or Papyrus) to fix the inability of the >>reference drivers to play at a resolution above 640x480. >There were NVidia fans raving here, in the last 2 or 3 days, >about running GPL at 1280x1024 at screaming framerates. I >guess you aren't one of them?

For me, the sim sometimes GPF's in nv4ogl.dll (part of the nvidia driver set), or sometimes goes to a black screen and simultaneously freezes my system, requiring a reboot, or allows me into the sim to race, but freezes after a minute or two. Unrelated to the TNT, sometimes the sim freezes when I use my Voodoo2 card - the image freezes, but the sound continues on. -- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Dont confuse him with reason. He is on a mission from god...Life will suck for him when Rampage comes out and he is again left out in the cold because of Glide apps. PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Pink Flamingo Pilot... http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm