Microsoft's Force Feedback Wheel

I'm seriously considering buying one of these, and I'd appreciate some feedback from anyone that has already taken the plunge. Why am I considering the Microsoft product?? 1) Optical/Digital accuracy. I have owned joysticks from just about every manufacturer, and the dead-on/never-drift accuracy of the Sidewinder 3D Pro makes it my favorite stick. 2) Force Feedback. If even some of the claims are true, I think I want this feature on my next wheel. 3) F'n tired of Thrustmaster. I owned a T2, and then a Nascar Pro from this company. Even though their support was top notch, I found myself in contact with them WAY WAY WAY too often. Also, neither TM product got along with Win95 very well. So, before I buy ... I have some questions: How do you like its feel when using it with non-force-feedback driving games? How is it while using the force feedback? Have you found a racing game that uses the feedback to simulate a loose wheel when entering a skid/slide? Is the wheel dead-on-accurate, like my Sidewinder Joystick? After having purchased one, would you recommend it to a friend? Or do you wish you had bought something else? Thx, EugOre *********************************************** In order to respond by email, expand the "pdx" to "portland" in my address.

Bought one; tried it; hate it. The wheel is fine, but the pedals are useless and can't be replaced or substituted for. I posted a longer rant elsewhere. Michael. > I'm seriously considering buying one of these, and I'd appreciate some > feedback from anyone that has already taken the plunge. ... > After having purchased one, would you recommend it to a friend? Or do > you wish you had bought something else?

Then you will love this aspect of the MS wheel. It's well done for what it is, but I'm not a big FF nut. I had the same experience with my T2 (broken springs all the time). Time will tell with the MS wheel, but it doesn't *seem* like the kind of product that will have as many problems as the T2. And naturally, the MS wheel integrates with W95 and DirectInput perfectly. Good, but it takes some getting used it. You can set it for self-centering (where FF provides turning resistance, making the wheel want to return to center -- my setting) or non-self-centering (FF off) where you can move the wheel to any position and it will stay there. Fun with MTM2. With GPL and other sims, I just use the FF to return the wheel to center (turning resistance, see above). No. I wish GPL did, but that may be beyond the current state of FF technology. Yes. I'm happy with it. It feels different than the T2 and so takes some getting used to. But I'm acclimated now and consider it a good purchase. See more detailed comments in my other post tonight in this newsgroup. (Sorry, but I'm too tired now to repeat them -- gotta get some sleep). Jim

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>>1) Optical/Digital accuracy. I have owned joysticks from just about >>every manufacturer, and the dead-on/never-drift accuracy of the >>Sidewinder 3D Pro makes it my favorite stick. >Then you will love this aspect of the MS wheel. >>2) Force Feedback. If even some of the claims are true, I think I >>want this feature on my next wheel. >It's well done for what it is, but I'm not a big FF nut. >>3) F'n tired of Thrustmaster. I owned a T2, and then a Nascar Pro >>from this company. Even though their support was top notch, I found >>myself in contact with them WAY WAY WAY too often. Also, neither TM >>product got along with Win95 very well. >I had the same experience with my T2 (broken springs all the time). Time >will tell with the MS wheel, but it doesn't *seem* like the kind of product >that will have as many problems as the T2. And naturally, the MS wheel >integrates with W95 and DirectInput perfectly. >>So, before I buy ... I have some questions: >>How do you like its feel when using it with non-force-feedback driving >>games? >Good, but it takes some getting used it. You can set it for self-centering >(where FF provides turning resistance, making the wheel want to return to >center -- my setting) or non-self-centering (FF off) where you can move the >wheel to any position and it will stay there. >>How is it while using the force feedback? >Fun with MTM2. With GPL and other sims, I just use the FF to return the >wheel to center (turning resistance, see above). >>Have you found a racing game that uses the feedback to simulate a >>loose wheel when entering a skid/slide? >No. I wish GPL did, but that may be beyond the current state of FF >technology. >>Is the wheel dead-on-accurate, like my Sidewinder Joystick? >Yes. >>After having purchased one, would you recommend it to a friend? Or do >>you wish you had bought something else? >I'm happy with it. It feels different than the T2 and so takes some getting >used to. But I'm acclimated now and consider it a good purchase. See more >detailed comments in my other post tonight in this newsgroup. (Sorry, but >I'm too tired now to repeat them -- gotta get some sleep). >Jim

Thanks Jim for the feedback, I saw one in the store today and wanted it but I got a SCSI CD-RW instead ;). I might go back from your post though... Tim ___ Remove the .spamstopper from e-mail address to send reply. ....and hold the Garden, topped, in the ring.... ---

Wait for Thrustmaster's new FF wheel. It will support both DirectX AND IForce, which is absolutely ace!!!

>I think it's great. The wheel itself is very well designed. They fixed the >Force Feedback stuff from the joystick so the fan doesn't turn on unless it >needs to (at least that's what I think - it certainly isn't on most of the >time). I LOVE the paddles for shifting. Grip and thumb grips are excellent. >The mounting system is nice and easy. No calibration. Force feedback is >cool, but the games (cart precision racing specifically) needs to improve the >algorithms now so that you can feel push & looseness, plus the feel of losing I thought you could do some of that with the software that came with the wheel. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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> > I'm seriously considering buying one of these, and I'd appreciate some > > feedback from anyone that has already taken the plunge. > I got it on Friday, and spent the weekend using racing with my brother (2 > computers, his with my old T2) and nephews. > I think it's great. The wheel itself is very well designed. They fixed the > Force Feedback stuff from the joystick so the fan doesn't turn on unless it > needs to (at least that's what I think - it certainly isn't on most of the > time). I LOVE the paddles for shifting. Grip and thumb grips are excellent. > The mounting system is nice and easy. No calibration. Force feedback is > cool, but the games (cart precision racing specifically) needs to improve the > algorithms now so that you can feel push & looseness, plus the feel of losing > grip. But that's just a software thing - it has nothing to do with the > wheel. > Overall - a good buy.

Yep. You're totally right. The wheel itself is a great piece of hardware capable of great feedback. Just use the "test forces" to see what it can do. Unfortuantely, the games that are around at the moment absolutely suck in the way they support it. Monster Truck Madness 2 is the only game I found that was really enhanced by the Force Feedback. Motorcross Madness, Cart, and Monaco GP, all had VERY minor feedback effects. It all a software (the games) problem, that should hopefully be sorted in the new batch coming!

> Yep. You're totally right. The wheel itself is a great piece of hardware >capable of great feedback. Just use the "test forces" to see what it can do. >Unfortuantely, the games that are around at the moment absolutely suck in the way >they support it. Monster Truck Madness 2 is the only game I found that was really >enhanced by the Force Feedback. Motorcross Madness, Cart, and Monaco GP, all had >VERY minor feedback effects. > It all a software (the games) problem, that should hopefully be sorted in the >new batch coming! Well I just want to use it with F1RS. I don't supposed you thied that game? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Why would you insult me like this? It's not my fault EB sells it for $50 more, ripping people off in the process!

> Why would you insult me like this? It's not my fault EB sells it for > $50 more, ripping people off in the process! Unless they force you to buy it from them, they're not ripping anyone off. You can choose to shop wherever you like for the best price. If you don't think EB's prices are reasonable, shop somewhere else, but buying from them to try things out then returning and buying somewhere else for price is pretty unethical behavior. Trips

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> > Yep. You're totally right. The wheel itself is a great piece of > hardware > >capable of great feedback. Just use the "test forces" to see what it can > do. > >Unfortuantely, the games that are around at the moment absolutely suck in > the way > >they support it. Monster Truck Madness 2 is the only game I found that was > really > >enhanced by the Force Feedback. Motorcross Madness, Cart, and Monaco GP, > all had > >VERY minor feedback effects. > > It all a software (the games) problem, that should hopefully be sorted > in the > >new batch coming! > Well I just want to use it with F1RS. I don't supposed you thied that game?

Well, I played Monaco GP with it, which is basically F1RS 2, and the feedback effect was minimal at best. Just a little twitch when you go off the track was all....

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>> Why would you insult me like this? It's not my fault EB sells it for >> $50 more, ripping people off in the process! >Unless they force you to buy it from them, they're not ripping anyone >off. You can choose to shop wherever you like for the best price. >If you don't think EB's prices are reasonable, shop somewhere else, but >buying from them to try things out then returning and buying somewhere >else for price is pretty unethical behavior.

Any more questions manny? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

>> Well I just want to use it with F1RS. I don't supposed you thied that game? > Well, I played Monaco GP with it, which is basically F1RS 2, and the >feedback effect was minimal at best. Just a little twitch when you go off the >track was all.... There was nothing when you crash or bump someone? Or any other subtle effects? Since I will be buying primarily for F1RS, I guess the MS FF or Saitek will not be suitable. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

It takes two to tango. A force feedback product relies on the game to tell it to produce forces. F1RS, with patch 1.09 had some forces built-in, but nothing as intense as Monster Truck Madness 2. NFS3 has decent forces as well. Both of these are more "arcadish" sims than what you'd expect out of F1RS or GPL. Certainly FF needs to be fine-tuned in high-end sim games for it to be realistic. See if you can push Ubisoft (and Papyrus) to get FF implemented (or improved) in their game...

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> >> Well I just want to use it with F1RS. I don't supposed you thied that > game? > > Well, I played Monaco GP with it, which is basically F1RS 2, and the > >feedback effect was minimal at best. Just a little twitch when you go off > the > >track was all.... > There was nothing when you crash or bump someone? Or any other > subtle effects? Since I will be buying primarily for F1RS, I guess the > MS FF or Saitek will not be suitable. > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. > cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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> >> Well I just want to use it with F1RS. I don't supposed you thied that > game? > > Well, I played Monaco GP with it, which is basically F1RS 2, and the > >feedback effect was minimal at best. Just a little twitch when you go off > the > >track was all.... > There was nothing when you crash or bump someone? Or any other > subtle effects? Since I will be buying primarily for F1RS, I guess the > MS FF or Saitek will not be suitable.

Yeah, I think I noticed a slight "tick" when I charged up the arse of someone instead of using my brakes, but it was still woefully pitifull. NFS3 is another good one with FF, if you like the game, except there's no response from the wheel when you crash into someone....

Best racing FF game to date= Viper Racing

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> > >> Well I just want to use it with F1RS. I don't supposed you thied that > > game? > > > Well, I played Monaco GP with it, which is basically F1RS 2, and the > > >feedback effect was minimal at best. Just a little twitch when you go off > > the > > >track was all.... > > There was nothing when you crash or bump someone? Or any other > > subtle effects? Since I will be buying primarily for F1RS, I guess the > > MS FF or Saitek will not be suitable. > Yeah, I think I noticed a slight "tick" when I charged up the arse of > someone instead of using my brakes, but it was still woefully pitifull. NFS3 > is another good one with FF, if you like the game, except there's no response > from the wheel when you crash into someone....

>I actually have Nascar 2, but haven't tried it - I didn't think it supported >force-feedback - I'll have to check it out. It won't support FF so I'm not worried about that, but there is a chance you may not even get the wheel & pedals recognized. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

I just wanted to point something out. I-Force 2 is IN direct-x 5 itself so any device that supports direct-x 5 also support I-force 2.0. Now, I-force 1.0, and I-force 2.0 are totally different since a I-force 1.0 device doesn't support ALL of the I-Force 2.0 effects in DX5. About the only I-F 1.0 joystick that has a patch to support I-Force 2.0 in DX5 is the CH products Force-FX but it only gives limited functionality. Just thought you people would like to know. -YUBS > Wait for Thrustmaster's new FF wheel. It will support both DirectX AND > IForce, which is absolutely ace!!!

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>>I actually have Nascar 2, but haven't tried it - I didn't think it >supported >>force-feedback - I'll have to check it out. >It won't support FF so I'm not worried about that, but there is a chance >you may not even get the wheel & pedals recognized. >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

In each new Thrustmaster steering wheel box is a bright pink sheet of paper notifying the purchaser that they may have a problem with Nascar2 and that a patch is available from the Papy website. According the the sheet, the problem is in Nascar2, not in the Thrustmaster wheels. Steve

Umm... Thrustmaster??? We are discussing MS FF wheels. How did you think TM wheels are relavant to the discussion? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >>>I actually have Nascar 2, but haven't tried it - I didn't think it >>supported >>>force-feedback - I'll have to check it out. >>It won't support FF so I'm not worried about that, but there is a chance >>you may not even get the wheel & pedals recognized. >>-- >>Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >>cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >In each new Thrustmaster steering wheel box is a bright pink sheet of paper >notifying the purchaser that they may have a problem with Nascar2 and that a >patch is available from the Papy website. According the the sheet, the >problem is in Nascar2, not in the Thrustmaster wheels. >Steve

>Umm... Thrustmaster??? We are discussing MS FF wheels. How did >you think TM wheels are relavant to the discussion? Whoops!! Reading too many threads at one time may lead to stupid posts (especially after a long day at work).