GPL, where's D3D and FFB?

Does this game do D3D and Force-Feedback? It doesn't say on the box. If it doesn't than that's a serious design snafu, especially in this day and age. -- Kevin "Q" Quattro VFX Animator Foundation Imaging

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> Does this game do D3D and Force-Feedback? It doesn't say on the >box. If it doesn't than that's a serious design snafu, especially in >this day and age. >-- >Kevin "Q" Quattro >VFX Animator >Foundation Imaging

Don't open this can of worms again, please.....D3D wasn't implemented because when GPL went into development, it was crap(and isn't all that great now). FFB wasn't included because, as David Kaemmer(I believe) says" It is not up to our standards at this time", or something very similar. My thoughts on the issue of 3D support are simple- this is not a sim for the masses. It's aimed at the *** sim fan, and the vast majority of those already own a 3Dfx or Rendition card, and those who don't will buy one in order to experience this great sim. -- Scott Moore Hoosier MotorSports [link lost in import] Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com]

Kevin 'Q' Quattro wrote Nope. No need to, IMHO. "not a big deal", for us serious hard-core SimRacers. But for casual racers... that's a different question. Remember to buy Hardware in function of the Hardware you want to support it. GPL was announced since years that it wouldn't be in D3D. FF isn't supported also presently. I don't see the need, since all those FF wheels on the market are nothing more than "bumps and grunt" feedback. Nothing realistic _for the moment_. And is it worth the working hours of XYZ programmers to do a patch for it if the number of FF drivers is not that high... Those FF drivers can still drive GPL without a problem. Still, it's a must-have to anybody that has even little interest in racing. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Actually, D3D 6 is quite good....but nonetheless, Scott is right as when GPL was doing production of its 3D engine Direct3D was horrid...

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>Kevin 'Q' Quattro wrote >> Does this game do D3D >Nope. No need to, IMHO. "not a big deal", for us serious hard-core >SimRacers. But for casual racers... that's a different question. Remember >to buy Hardware in function of the Hardware you want to support it. GPL was >announced since years that it wouldn't be in D3D.

I've been hearing this mentality over and over in r.a.s and i must stop to point out it's absolute stupidity. People will not buy hardware to support this product or another, they will simply not buy the product. You may console yourselves beleiving that just seperates the "***" from the casual, but in reality it is just making the game unavaliable to a huge bass of high spec PC owners, who simply won't bother, becuase their 3Dfx & Rendtion beaters, will not run the product. It's not even a "high-tech" issue. it's a issue of two (now) old API's that can't compete against OpenGl or D3D in terms of userbase, and that is the mistake Papy has made, and they're going to end up paying for it in sales. boo hoo. I'm not in as so much sorry for Papy, as i am amazed at the arguments that papy fans will come up with to jusitfy a idea which has turned one of the best sale potential titles of the year into a mid range seller. Is it any wonder Cendant want to bail out of their software interests? Z.

Wanna Bet? I've spoken with several people who have purchased Thriller 3Ds or Voodoo- based cards for this particular product. Most people who are not "hard core sim fans", even if GPL supported their hardware, would try it for a day or two and return it-the learning curve is just too steep for the casual gamer. I don't think the lack of wider hardware support is going to hurt in the intended market. It's never a mistake to forego compatability for quality- do you want Papyrus to become another Microprose, who are so concerned about running on all the latest hardware that they never ship a product? -- Scott Moore Hoosier MotorSports [link lost in import] Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com]

Peruse this N.G. for all the people who've bought CPU's, motherboards, Thomas $uper Wheels, and the lot, just so they can use them for GPL, or some other game. How significant their numbers are relative to the whole market, I can't say. I can say, however, that I bought a Voodoo II card for the software; not for one product, but for access to a number of them. I'd rather not have had to, but it was worth it. And regardless of whether it's game-oriented or not, at some point, EVERY computer user will have to buy hardware to keep pace with the software. There are countless perfectly functional 386's out there, but who's using one? My guess is that N3, or whatever they decide to call it, will likely support D3D, and FF as well. It just makes for a larger target-market. Steve B.

> >I've been hearing this mentality over and over in r.a.s and i must stop to > >point out it's absolute stupidity. People will not buy hardware to support > >this product or another, they will simply not buy the product. > Wanna Bet? I've spoken with several people who have purchased Thriller 3Ds > or Voodoo- based cards for this particular product. You may be right about a few people buying cards specifically for this game. I think he is correct about not having the game ported for D3D or OpenGL. Big mistake that WILL be felt in the bottom line which FOR US means FUTURE games. If GPL and other sim games are a "Loser" to the bottom line... We will NOT see future releases. This is what cracks me up. The idea that the "learning curve" is too steep. GPL is NOTHING compared to some of Janes Simulations and with braking and throttle help it isn't that tough. I don't think he is concerned about running on the LATEST hardware. OpenGL and D3D are not THAT new. Bottom line it is a mistake by Papy/Sierra not to have Direct3d or OpenGL support. BTW - Another mistake that hasn't been fully realized YET is why they didn't have massive multiplayer support at like MPlayer, WON, IGZ or TEN built into the game. The game OBVIOUSLY plays well multiplayer now, WHY are we having to make things like VROC ourselves? Makes me wonder if N2000 will actually have massively multiplayer built into it? Bill / Amish on TEN

>This is what cracks me up. The idea that the "learning curve" is too >steep. GPL is NOTHING compared to some of Janes Simulations and with >braking and throttle help it isn't that tough. But you'll never get competitive using driver aids- and without them, it is extremely tough for a casual gamer to drive. BTW, I own several of Jane's sims, and with the aids available in those, they aren't too tough either......apples and oranges. -- Scott Moore Hoosier MotorSports [link lost in import] Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com]

I know GPL was developed back when D3D was lame, but I think quite odd that there is no clue or hint of an upcoming D3D 'patch' or OpenGL. These are very common and standard API's in the *** business. Just odd that they cut a large market out of potential buyers who rid there systems of aging Voodoo cards or never bought one in the first place. I don't play games in software mode, no way, never. -- Kevin "Q" Quattro VFX Animator Foundation Imaging

Sorry if that comes across wrong, but it gets old hearing this about every new sim that comes out. When LB2 and F-15 came out, it was the same thing- someone busts their ass to make a terrific piece of software, and all some people can do is *** that their hardware won't run it. They can't please everyone, and anybody familiar with Papyrus titles should have expected exactly what we got. -- Scott Moore Hoosier MotorSports [link lost in import] Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com] >>This is what cracks me up. The idea that the "learning curve" is too >>steep. GPL is NOTHING compared to some of Janes Simulations and with >>braking and throttle help it isn't that tough. >But you'll never get competitive using driver aids- and without them, it is >extremely tough for a casual gamer to drive. BTW, I own several of Jane's >sims, and with the aids available in those, they aren't too tough >either......apples and oranges. >-- >Scott Moore >Hoosier MotorSports >[link lost in import] >Sports *** Network >[link lost in import: /***.com]

If this were the case do you think Papyrus would have released ICR2 as Rendition, followed it up with N2, then SODA and capped it all with GPL? Would Sierra have allowed that if people were "simply not buying the product"? No, of course not. People _will_ buy hardware to support the software, and if you don't understand that then you fail to grasp the market GPL is selling into. The arguments you make are valid if GPL were to be looking at the more mainstream market, but without various learning modes and arcade features I think D3D or OpenGL support wouldn't help anyway. Papy understand their market well, and GPL addresses that market. To branch out or reach beyond that would require an investigation into the items you mention. No, IMO it's not, but I'm equally sure it has nothing to do with API support in one product from one subsidiary of one company that they own. If you ever look at the FT you'll understand their reasons all too well. Cheers! John

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>> Wanna Bet? I've spoken with several people who have purchased Thriller 3Ds >> or Voodoo- based cards for this particular product. >You may be right about a few people buying cards specifically for this >game. I think he is correct about not having the game ported for D3D or >OpenGL. Big mistake that WILL be felt in the bottom line which FOR US >means FUTURE games. If GPL and other sim games are a "Loser" to the >bottom line... We will NOT see future releases. >Bill / Amish on TEN

Bill, thanks for restoring my faith in the intelligence of the group and the impact of sales. If people think GPL was written to sell to hardcroe sim only fans, they're out of their tiny little minds. Z.

Uh, 2 years ago Quake and Tomb Raider helped to sell thousands of 3DFX cards alone. People definitely bought the hardware because of the software.Oh, and by the way, when id software(they sure make lots of mistakes) first released 3D patches for Quake, only 3DFX and Rendition based cards could support it. Even Activision's and Lucasarts' D3D patches for Interstate 76 and X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter were only recommended for 3DFX cards. id software has still not written a D3D patch for Quake or Quake II and I do not think one is planned for Quake III(even with the supposed improvements of Direct X 6). Only in the past year have their been other non-3DFX cards that were really capable of running the opengl version of Quake/Quake 2. I may be an idiot(or "absolutely stupid" as you point out), but I have bought hardware to support software all my life. In fact, it is usually what dictates my upgrading. I have been into console and computer *** since the late 1970's. I wanted to play Donkey Kong so I upgraded from Atari 2600 to ColecoVision. I wanted to play MS Flight Simulator so I upgraded(if you want to call it that) from an Apple II to an IBM 8088 PC. I wanted to play Super Mario so I upgraded from NES to SNES. I wanted to play DOOM so I upgraded from 386 to 486. I wanted to play Indycar better so I purchased a steering wheel. I wanted to play Tekken so I upgraded from Genesis to Playstation. I wanted to play Nascar so I upgraded from 486 to Pentium. I wanted to play Grand Prix 2, so I upgraded to a Pentium 166. I wanted to play Rendition Indycar 2 and Nascar 2 so I upgraded to Rendition Verite based card. I wanted to play 3D Quake and Tomb Raider so I added a 3DFX Voodoo card. I wanted to play Quake 2 and Unreal better, so I upgraded to a Pentium II. I wanted to play as many games as possible(Glide, D3D, openGL) at upwards of 1024x768 resolutions, so I upgraded to 2 Pure 3D II's in SLI mode. If the software is good, people will buy the necessary hardware. I sometimes wish that was not the case, but that is how the industry works, it has always been that way and always will be. Don't buy *** hardware just because the specs are good, that may amount to nothing. The S3 Virge, Sega Saturn, Atari Jaguar, and NEC PowerVR may have had decent specs but the software was never there so why bother. If a really good game comes out that supports nVidia TNT only, or provides really superior performance to the setup I already have, then I will probably purchase that card as well. Rendition and 3DFX API's may be old(if 2 years is considered old), but they still can provide superior performance and faster development time than the improved Direct X 6. The 3D world is constantly changing, and given how long games are in development, companies have to make decisions based on what is available at that time and guess on the future. P.S. What 3DFX & Rendition beaters are you referring to? I do not think that there is anything that will currently beat my 2 Pure 3D II SLI setup. Are you referring to the TNT? It may be a little faster on some benchmarks, but overall the 3DFX Voodoo 2 wins out in *** performance and support, and that is what matters to me. I really do not believe that Papyrus will lose sales because of only 3DFX and Rendition support. Besides, Grand Prix legends is not going to be a Quake 2, Tomb Raider, or Myst in terms of sales. It is in no way "one of the best sale potential titles of the year". It was not intended to be. Papyrus knows there sales. Indcyar II (now out for 3 years and extremely cheap) was available out of the box to a huge number of users because it had good SVGA performance and ran very well even on low-end pentiums. It was and still is a great game, but its sales have been no where near Papyrus own Nascar and Nascar 2, let alone a best seller title. Grand Prix Legends is for a very niche group and Papyrus tried to support that group and as many others as possible. As far as 3D accelerators go, 3DFX has by far the largest install base, and the majority of people into Papyrus sims probably have some kind of Rendition board as well. This whole things sounds like alot of sour grapes. Well, anyway my "absolutely stupid" self is going to go back to playing some stupid sim called Grand Prix Legends. I guess your superior wisdom is what is keeping you from enjoying it. As you state below: boo hoo Don Chapman

>I may be an idiot(or "absolutely stupid" as you point out), but I have >bought hardware to support software all my life. In fact, it is usually what >dictates my upgrading. I have been into console and computer *** since >the late 1970's. I wanted to play Donkey Kong so I upgraded from Atari 2600 >to ColecoVision. Granted, but you are talking about Upgrading, not downgrading, or stepping to one side, becuase the product in question GPL is simply outdated as far as 3D API support stands. (The G200 Raterizer is a welcome addition, but more, please more!) Owners of the Savage S3, Riva TNT, Riva 128's Intel i740's are all beign denided access to GPL- and GPL alone, in reality. It's not as if Sierra are pushing the limit's with exciting new stuff either- just things that have been aroudn a long long time- and thats the problem. I could unsderstand if it was exciting bold and new, but it's old and tired API's- (it's not even glide 3.0, is it?) are being used. And i for one would welcome the news that they are going to wake up, and realise this, and work on an opengl or D3D Raterizer. Z.

> Uh, 2 years ago Quake and Tomb Raider helped to sell thousands of 3DFX cards > alone. People definitely bought the hardware because of the software.Oh, and snip > Well, anyway my "absolutely stupid" self is going to go back to playing some > stupid sim called Grand Prix Legends. I guess your superior wisdom is what > is keeping you from enjoying it. As you state below: > boo hoo Well said! If there ever was a post for direct inclusion into the ras FAQ, this is it... l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

snip > It's not as if Sierra are pushing the limit's with exciting new stuff either- > just things that have been aroudn a long long time- and thats the problem. > I could unsderstand if it was exciting bold and new, but it's old and tired > API's- (it's not even glide 3.0, is it?) are being used. Oh my, I rather have an exciting bold and new SIM instead of an exciting bold and new API...and if GPL is not this kind of sim to you, well... l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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>Granted, but you are talking about Upgrading, not downgrading, or stepping to >one side, becuase the product in question GPL is simply outdated as far as 3D >API support stands. (The G200 Raterizer is a welcome addition, but more, >please more!) >Owners of the Savage S3, Riva TNT, Riva 128's Intel i740's are all beign >denided access to GPL- and GPL alone, in reality.

Interesting point, but I don't think I know many people with one of the above cards without a 3dfx-made card of some description. However that said, I don't think the comments that people will buy one just to play GPL are right. I know of many people who got a 3dfx card to enable them to play GLQuake but I know more people who waited until there were more games around that supported it before laying out their cash. The point is that where some people can, and will, spend money on new hardware when others won't. The issue here though is not upgrading or downgrading but whether or not Papyrus/Sierra should have pushed D3D. The answer, really is yes but they didn't so why the stress?

> But you'll never get competitive using driver aids- and without them, it is > extremely tough for a casual gamer to drive. I think everyone would agree NO ONE would be "competitive" with GPL the very 1st day they bought the game. Everyone has to learn the game to some extent. If that takes "aids" then I would recommend it. After awhile and "if" that person has the desire to be more competitive then they can take the "aids" off. Bottom line, the games isn't that hard for someone who actually WANTS to race a sim-race car. Causual Arcade Gamer --- Naaaa, but they would understand that fact about 10 mins of playing the game. Explain more... Not exactly sure why it is apples and oranges. Bill / Amish on TEN

Defining "intelligence" as being people who agree with you is one sure way to stunt intellectual development. Being abusive has a similar effect... Cheers! John

I really disagree with you on this, I have tried other sims and have always gotten frustrated after the first couple weeks, with GPL it is very different, the way you can start out with novice training cars really helps you to learn the game before moving up to the cars with more horsepower. I am enjoying this game more than I would have imagined. I loved F1GP on the Amiga and this game reminds me of the fun I had with that game. Cyriel

>Granted, but you are talking about Upgrading, not downgrading, or stepping to >one side, becuase the product in question GPL is simply outdated as far as 3D >API support stands. (The G200 Raterizer is a welcome addition, but more, >please more!) >Owners of the Savage S3, Riva TNT, Riva 128's Intel i740's are all beign >denided access to GPL- and GPL alone, in reality. Are you even listening? The S3 Savage3D is not even available yet, the Riva TNT just came out a couple months ago, and the Riva 128 and i740 are renowned for two things - SPEED and POOR IMAGE QUALITY, particularly the i740. They also did not exist for most of GPL's development cycle. It's like your entire mentality is driven by the latest buzzwords - D3Dv6! OpenGL! TNT! - with no awareness of the reality of developing a game like GPL. It's not like GPL was thought up in March, developed in April-August, and released to the world in October. We're talking two years here, and trying to hit the graphics accelerator market's moving target is a fool's game. You develop for the *** hardware in your target market - stuff that's available to the people who will want to play your game - and that's 3dfx and Rendition. The quality of the game is NOT determined by which brand-spanking-new 3d API it supports - it's in the gameplay, and if you'd stop whining about which cards GPL doesn't support and play the game on one that it does, you'd realize how silly your arguments sound. Rick

>Granted, but you are talking about Upgrading, not downgrading, or stepping to >one side, becuase the product in question GPL is simply outdated as far as 3D >API support stands. (The G200 Raterizer is a welcome addition, but more, >please more!) Simply outdated as far as the 3D API? Is my 12mb Voodoo 2 only purchased 6 months ago outdated? Is my Rendition Verite 2200, also purchased this year already outdated? Damn! I guess that month old TNT will probably be outdated by Christmas! You can question Papyrus decision to not provide wider platform support, but to say that the API's are outdated is just not true. It all has to do with programming anyway. The Rendition version of GPL runs much better on my P233mmx machine with Hercules Rendition Verite 2200 and Canopus Pure 3D 3DFX Voodoo 1 than the 3DFX glide version does. Does that mean Rendition's API is better than Glide or less obsolete? On my PII with 2 Pure 3D II's in SLI, the Glide version smokes the Rendition. I guarantee that a D3D version would not run better than the Glide version, even with Direct X 6. On the last 3DFX confernece call, an analyst asked 3DFX if Glide was becoming obsolete because of Direct X. Their answer was that Glide allows developers immediate acess to the new features of the 3DFX cards. If developers had to wait for Direct X to support some of the new features(ie multi-texturing) then only with the recent release of Direct X 6 would Quake 2/Unreal be able to take advantage of these new features. As of this date Unreal's D3D patch is still not out of beta and in limited support. However, I have been enjoying it on my Voodoo 2 for months. When a newer 3DFX card becomes available(1999?), Glide will be the only gateway to these new features. 3DFX also pointed out that there will still be many Glide only games released for this Christmas season. So if Papyrus is banking on obsolete technology then so are alot of other companies. AND, amazingly enough, if you go to the Planet Unreal files site http://www.planetunreal.com/index.asp?files/index.shtm it states the following: "If you are using an OpenGL based 3D card then you'll definitely want try out the beta Open GL patch (278 KB). Currently the only cards that are supported are the Rendition cards. Be sure to check the readme file before trying it out" What!! Only cards supported are Rendition? Apparently Epic MegaGames does not think they are obsolete. Sure its opengl, but guess what? You have to have a specific video card to be able to run it! GPL has been in development for at least 3 years. Two years ago, when the first viable 3D cards were appearing on the consumer market, D3D was absolutely terrible and true opengl(not minigl) was only running on extremely high-end, expensive, professional video cards. One year ago, D3D was still terrible(check out CART Precision Racing for the proof) and Quake/Quake II engine games had opengl support for a few select cards. Only in the last several months have consumer cards been made available that run opengl and D3D at frame rates that match what is achievable by 3DFX's Glide or Rendition's API. Not true. There are alot of other games that will not run, or not run as well as the 3DFX Glide version. Also, my 12mb Voodoo 2 beats every one of these cards hands down except for Riva TNT(only available for less than a month), and it still holds its own against the TNT depending on the game, the API, and the benchmark. Two years is not a long time in the development cycle of a game. I obviously don't have proof of this, but I would assume that only coding for Rendition and 3DFX greatly speed up the devolopment cycle. D3D was probably not a viable option for most of the develpment cycle(especially when the engine itself was created), and there were still precious few cards that could really handle true opengl very well. So, its really not so shocking that Papyrus would have made these API decisions. Given Papyrus' history, I am sure that if an opengl or D3D version is possible and will greatly benefit the sim community, they will release a patch. They made a 3DFX patch for Nascar 2 after many denials that they ever would. But the consumer won out because 3DFX quickly became a viable hardware platform. When they were developing the original Nascar 2, Rendition was the best solution for them at that time. Its that same type of situation now with Grand Prix Legends. Maybe there will be a D3D or opengl patch in the future. If so, that would be great. But if the choice was release the game this year with Rendition and 3DFX support, or release the game next year with D3D or opengl, I'm glad they picked the former. The Nascar 2 3DFX patch finally came out over a year after the release of the game. Fortunately, I had been playing the extremely outdated and obsolete but totally kick-ass Rendition version of Nascar 2 for that prior year. And now I am enjoying the extremely outdated and obsolete Grand Prix Legends. But hey, these are extremely outdated and obsolete cars, drivers, and tracks, so maybe that's just what Papyrus intended! ;) Don Chapman

The 3DFX API *is* outdated.(there's a long list that it can't do) Not the damn card. D3D will be here forever and keep getting better and better. Why? MICROSOFT. These butt-munchers own and control everything and we just half to live with it. 3DFX will fall the same way Netscape is and will. That's life. Luckily your Voodoo2 card handles D3D! And, yes, my TNT *will* be out of date in 6 months. It already is on paper. NVIDIA's already working on another chip set! Wooohhaaaaa!!! -- Kevin "Q" Quattro VFX Animator Foundation Imaging

> The 3DFX API *is* outdated.(there's a long list that it can't do) > Not the damn card. Duh! You are missing the point of my statements. 3DFX's API(Glide) is NOT outdated for the development of a game that is being released today. I'm trying to point out that given development timelines for games, Papyrus has not done anything foolish or "absolutley stupid", which was suggested in the original post I responded to, by choosing Glide and Rendition support only. Glide will constantly be updated by 3DFX to take advantage of their current cards features. Rendition does the same with theirs. Name one D3D or opengl game currently available that does something that the Glide version of the game cannot do.(P.S. I'm not trying to antagonize you with these questions, I really want to know if you have the info). What is this long list that Glide cannot do? What can D3D or opengl do that Glide cannot? Where is this evidenced in any 3D accelerated games available today? The 3DFX API is outdated compared to what? Direct X 6.0 that has been available for only a few months? Opengl that is only supported properly by a few cards, and even then it is scketchy? Please give me a list of currently available D3D games that run better than their Glide counterparts. I know of maybe one - Madden 99. Please give me a list of currently available and working opengl games. Quake/Quake2/Hexen 2? Unreal is still in beta for opengl, right? Does it currently work with TNT, Matrox, Riva128, i740? Any other opengl games? Are there any not programmed by id software or running on some version of the Quake/Quake 2 engine? Could be, but that's not the way things have been going for Microsoft and D3D up until recently. D3D sucked in performance and ease of programming compared to Glide. Two years ago there is no way Papyrus would have chosen to go with D3D, not even one year ago given the performance at the time. Whew! What are all those must have D3D only games? Motoracer(over a year old), Jedi Knight(over a year old), Flight Sim 98? Any others? I've yet to see a game that gives a good reason to run a D3D version instead of a Glide version, if both are available. And if it is D3D only, which ones are the really good ones again? And unfortunately, as soon as you unpacked it out of the box there were many games that you are unable to play with it at all. And, unfortunately, there are still more on the horizon. Fair - no. Good for the industry - probably not. Fact - YES! With my 3DFX card there are only 2 3D accelerated games released in the last 2 years that I cannot play: (1) Indycar II(CART Racing) by Papyrus (2) SODA Off Road Racing by Papyrus. Both of these games are Rendition enhanced only. That is why I also have a Rendition Verite 2D/3D card. When a game that I am interested in comes out that I am unable to play to my satisfaction on my current setup, then I will have to consider upgrading. Is this good for my marriage? No. Is it reality? Yes. Is it a sick obsession? Yes. What I'm trying to point out, obviously to no avail, is that Papyrus' choosing to support native 3DFX and Rendition is not some crazy, stupid, narrow-minded scheme to keep all matrox, s3, nVidia, and Intel i740 users in the dark. They were looking for the best performance for the largest number of users, given the state of the industry at that point in time. Hey, if Papyrus release a TNT patch for Grand Prix Legends that will allow for full details and a full field of cars at 1024x768 resolution at constant 36fps, then I will be the first in line to buy one. However, until then I am happy with my 3DFX. Don Chapman

So, there is a long list of stuff it can't do. Is there hardware out there that will do these things? There is no reason to have an API that does something if the hardware doesn't. Glide has the advantage of supporting all the features of a just released card. If you are banking on D3D, you have to wait for microsoft to get off their but and add the support for the features you are mentioning. Then you still have to have a driver by the card manufacturer that will take the d3d calls and route them to the appropriate hardware. If you go the way of glide, then the API does everything the card does, if you go the way of D3D, you have to wait for microsoft to add the support for things, even if the card you are using supports the features. Example: multi-texturing. Glide could do it as soon as the card was available that did it. D3D couldn't do it until just recently. Am I wrong? -- Paul

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> The 3DFX API *is* outdated.(there's a long list that it can't do) > Not the damn card. D3D will be here forever and keep getting better and > better. Why? MICROSOFT. These butt-munchers own and control everything > and we just half to live with it. 3DFX will fall the same way Netscape > is and will. That's life. Luckily your Voodoo2 card handles D3D! And, > yes, my TNT *will* be out of date in 6 months. It already is on paper. > NVIDIA's already working on another chip set! > Wooohhaaaaa!!! > -- > Kevin "Q" Quattro > VFX Animator > Foundation Imaging

>Are you even listening? The S3 Savage3D is not even available yet, the Riva >TNT just came out a couple months ago, and the Riva 128 and i740 are >renowned for two things - SPEED and POOR IMAGE QUALITY, particularly the >i740. They also did not exist for most of GPL's development cycle. Would you be amazed to learn the an average development cycle for a game based on a new engine is around the 2 year mark? Z.

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>>Granted, but you are talking about Upgrading, not downgrading, or stepping >to >>one side, becuase the product in question GPL is simply outdated as far as >3D >>API support stands. (The G200 Raterizer is a welcome addition, but more, >>please more!) >Simply outdated as far as the 3D API? Is my 12mb Voodoo 2 only purchased 6 >months ago outdated? Is my Rendition Verite 2200, also purchased this year >already outdated? Damn! I guess that month old TNT will probably be outdated >by Christmas!

Don, Simply, Yes, Yes, but a lot longer than a year ago, and probably by Xmas, yes. Which is rather why API's like D3D and OpenGl are so important, don;t you think? Z.

The flight sim guys have had a very gentle learning curve since many sims have gradually built them up to this level. Also flying a plane is a hell of a lot easier than driving a car in terms of coordinated movements. They need to remember a lot of buttons to push etc, but the controls of flying only become crucial when close to the ground. GPL is something that is superficially easy but actually not, simply because of what you are asked to do. Anyone can fly a plane in a sim, but ask them to fly through a tight series of hoops or within a certain time and it becomes difficult - precision of control is not at a premium. In an auto-sim it is at all times. That one mistake allows a fraction of a second to recover before disaster, not the several seconds in a plane. To be very good at each is probably equally difficult, but I think it's far easier for someone to fly a plane than to drive a car (sim-wise). I'm happy to keep a plane in the air and mess around looking at the scenery, whereas in a car I'm at 190mph toward Curva Grande almost before the box is open! :-) Cheers! John

No, but I would wonder why you mentioned it when the discussion was about GPL - not an average game. Cheers! John

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> >Are you even listening? The S3 Savage3D is not even available yet, the Riva > >TNT just came out a couple months ago, and the Riva 128 and i740 are > >renowned for two things - SPEED and POOR IMAGE QUALITY, particularly the > >i740. They also did not exist for most of GPL's development cycle. > Would you be amazed to learn the an average development cycle for a game based > on a new engine is around the 2 year mark?

We would be more amazed if you ever even bothered to read his post! This was clipped out of your response: > It's not like GPL was thought up in March, developed in April-August, and > released to the world in October. We're talking two years here, and trying > to hit the graphics accelerator market's moving target is a fool's game.

> To be very good at each is probably equally difficult, but I think > it's far easier for someone to fly a plane than to drive a car > (sim-wise). I'm happy to keep a plane in the air and mess around > looking at the scenery, whereas in a car I'm at 190mph toward Curva > Grande almost before the box is open! :-) I think it is easier for you because you WANT to race a sim-car. For a serious sim-flyer, just "Flying" and looking at the scenery is probably not what they are looking to do. Bill / Amish on TEN

What?!? So if GPL was programmed for D3D(which was much inferior at time of development to Glide or Redline), my Voodoo 2 and Rendition cards would not be obsolete? Poor performance but available to more users? That does not sound like a good decision to me. You are completely missing the points of my posts. As I have already stated in previous posts: What are all those must have D3D only games? Motoracer(over a year old), Jedi Knight(over a year old), Flight Sim 98? Any others? I've yet to see a game that gives a good reason to run a D3D version instead of a Glide version, if both are available. I know of maybe one - Madden 99. And if you are talking about D3D only, which ones are the really good ones again? Please, please, please tell me one other D3D game that performs better on more available video cards than its Glide counterpart. And as for opengl: Please give me a list of currently available and working opengl games. Quake/Quake2/Hexen 2? Unreal is still in beta for opengl, right? Does it currently work with TNT, Matrox, Riva128, i740? Any other opengl games? Are there any not programmed by id software or running on some version of the Quake/Quake 2 engine? While opengl is a much better solution than D3D, at the time of GPL's development, there very very few cards that could run true opengl or even have official opengl drivers for that matter. And this is still the case as of today! And by the way, guess which cards will currently run the opengl Unreal beta? My outdated, obsolete Rendition. But why would I run it when the Glide multi-texture version is so kick-ass! Bottom-line(and this will be my last post on this subject - I hope): D3D would have been a poor decision given the development cycle of GPL. Papyrus wanted the best performance for their super intensive engine. D3D would not have been able to handle it, I doubt it could even handle it now. Opengl may have been a better than D3D performance wise, but its available for alot fewer cards than 3DFX and Rendition would be. Name the currently available consumer 3D cards(not professional Intergraph types) with true, working, non-beta opengl drivers, that are running true, working, non-beta opengl games. I believe there are a very select few, if any, but I could be wrong. Don Chapman

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>>>Simply outdated as far as the 3D API? Is my 12mb Voodoo 2 only purchased 6 >>>months ago outdated? Is my Rendition Verite 2200, also purchased this year >>>already outdated? Damn! I guess that month old TNT will probably be >outdated >>>by Christmas! >>Don, >>Simply, Yes, Yes, but a lot longer than a year ago, and probably by Xmas, >yes. >>Which is rather why API's like D3D and OpenGl are so important, don;t you >>think? >What?!? So if GPL was programmed for D3D(which was much inferior at time of >development to Glide or Redline), my Voodoo 2 and Rendition cards would not >be obsolete? Poor performance but available to more users? That does not >sound like a good decision to me. You are completely missing the points of >my posts.

In the case of the Randition card, yes, still obsolete, and in the case of V2, passed on by now. But you know, they and all the others would be supported. Run any D3D game on TNT over V2/Glide and you will see. Spec Ops, X-Plane. you're quite right in saying that the FPS thinks Open GL is 3D at it's coolest, but the huge market has ensured that there is qide card support. What you are talkign about is Epic, who still can't make OpenGl, D3D or network play work. TNT, Riva128, Permedia 2. 3Dfx opengl full (not the mini-driver) is still in beta, btw. >Don Chapman Z.