Reviews of FF wheels?

Have there bee nany comparative reviews of FF wheels? I know that the MSFT product is very new and the Thrustmaster product isn't quite on shelves yet, but I'm getting ready to build a Sim and wanted to do research before buying a wheel. Marc Plante

I just bought the MS wheel, and will return it tomorrow. It's ***y awful! The wheel itself works well enough, I suppose. The pedals, though, are light and slide all over, and don't support separating gas from brake. The pedals plug into the back of the wheel housing, and so can't be replaced with proper pedals. In GPL, the wheel is not readable in Generic mode; you need DI to see the wheel at all. There's no hope of getting a usable setup in GPL. On the positive side, the wheel felt precise. It calibrated in GPL without the high-freq jittering at center I have with my other sticks. I tried for all of an hour, and never got to used to it. One other problem: I had to remove my desk center drawer to find a place to clamp the wheel. However, the s***tie pedals, more than anything else, make this unusable. I can live with most of the other deficiencies. Giving up in disgust, I dusted off the old TM GP1. In generic mode, I find the paddles usable as a clutch. With the CH pedals, brake and gas are separated with a flip of a switch, and all is well again. (Use a TM dongle thingee between the GP1 and the pedals.) Except I'm now back where I started 3 weeks ago: the GP1 is mechanically sloppy around center, leading to the original gyrations with an UltraRacer, and most recently, a relic CH Mach III. (I think that's the model number. Do they still make them? Would love to pick up a fresh one.) I'm thinking of butchering a Futaba RC car transmitter next. I have a 3PJ that works great on the real thing, but the rf interface I have doesn't support buttons (2 channel interface; don't expect buttons). The combo works with the pedals, and the trigger would make a nice clutch. The lack of buttons for shifting is the most vexing problem with that setup. Michael. > Have there bee nany comparative reviews of FF wheels? I know that the > MSFT product is very new and the Thrustmaster product isn't quite on > shelves yet, but I'm getting ready to build a Sim and wanted to do > research before buying a wheel. > Marc Plante

actually you can seperate the gas and break with the sidewinder software.

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>I just bought the MS wheel, and will return it tomorrow. It's ***y >awful! The wheel itself works well enough, I suppose. The pedals, >though, are light and slide all over, and don't support separating gas >from brake. The pedals plug into the back of the wheel housing, and so >can't be replaced with proper pedals. In GPL, the wheel is not readable >in Generic mode; you need DI to see the wheel at all. There's no hope of >getting a usable setup in GPL. >On the positive side, the wheel felt precise. It calibrated in GPL >without the high-freq jittering at center I have with my other sticks. I >tried for all of an hour, and never got to used to it. One other >problem: I had to remove my desk center drawer to find a place to clamp >the wheel. However, the s***tie pedals, more than anything else, make >this unusable. I can live with most of the other deficiencies. >Giving up in disgust, I dusted off the old TM GP1. In generic mode, I >find the paddles usable as a clutch. With the CH pedals, brake and gas >are separated with a flip of a switch, and all is well again. (Use a TM >dongle thingee between the GP1 and the pedals.) Except I'm now back >where I started 3 weeks ago: the GP1 is mechanically sloppy around >center, leading to the original gyrations with an UltraRacer, and most >recently, a relic CH Mach III. (I think that's the model number. Do they >still make them? Would love to pick up a fresh one.) >I'm thinking of butchering a Futaba RC car transmitter next. I have a >3PJ that works great on the real thing, but the rf interface I have >doesn't support buttons (2 channel interface; don't expect buttons). The >combo works with the pedals, and the trigger would make a nice clutch. >The lack of buttons for shifting is the most vexing problem with that >setup. >Michael. >> Have there bee nany comparative reviews of FF wheels? I know that the >> MSFT product is very new and the Thrustmaster product isn't quite on >> shelves yet, but I'm getting ready to build a Sim and wanted to do >> research before buying a wheel. >> Marc Plante

>I'm thinking of butchering a Futaba RC car transmitter next. I have a >3PJ that works great on the real thing, but the rf interface I have >doesn't support buttons (2 channel interface; don't expect buttons). The >combo works with the pedals, and the trigger would make a nice clutch. >The lack of buttons for shifting is the most vexing problem with that >setup. Hey, try http://www.traxxas.com/. I used to work at a hobby store, and we carried an RC-car-like PC controller that worked quite well. I didn't really like the small amount of tension in the trigger, so I am now clocking fast laps in GPL with my InterAct UltraRacer PC (no room for a wheel - and I need a trim control - long story). I really like its strong wheel-centering, but it's not as bad as the V3 wheel, with the big "notch" when the wheel is centered. Now you have my $0.02... - John P. Wilson :|: - Downshift http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/1123/index.html - Ten Cylinders, Six Gears, Four Wheels, Two Wings, and one Brave Heart.

How about the trigger to shift, assuming it has "out" for braking at the moment. I had thought of using my old RC control....but I think I'll save for a real wheel Ben

>I just bought the MS wheel, and will return it tomorrow. It's ***y >awful! The wheel itself works well enough, I suppose. The pedals, >though, are light and slide all over, and don't support separating gas >from brake. The MS wheel does support separate gas and brake. Set up a "profile" using the Sidewinder software and make sure you hit the "settings" button in the profile editor. Voila, separate gas and brake is one of the options along with dead zone and range. As to the pedals sliding on the floor, I had the same problem with the T2 pedals (actually the T2 was worse). I solved it by placing a piece of wood (8 to 10 inches wide by maybe 18 inches long) between the back of the pedal unit and the wall. Works like a charm, but only if your computer backs up to a wall of course. What's wrong with DirectInput? Works great for me. What do you mean by "no hope of getting a usable setup"? For what it's worth, I really like the MS wheel. It took some getting used to since I was ingrained with the feel of the T2, but I love it now. The MS wheel feels slightly "grainy" in its movement (due interior gears I suppose), but that didn't bother me for long. Also, the pedals don't have as large of a range of movement as the T2 pedals, but again, I adjusted pretty quickly. Optical readings mean no calibration or drift (thank God), and I like the convenient buttons. The Sidewinder software is dynamite. I'm not much into force feedback, although I tried it with MTM2 and it was kind of fun. The only problem I've had is getting the wheel to work with N2 (DOS in W95 shell). This is being addressed by MS, but I don't know what the outcome will be. Apparently, some people have gotten it to work without a hitch. Jim

>What's wrong with DirectInput? Works great for me. DirectInput sucks for sims for non-optical devices - lots of "jittery reads". But for digital/optical devices like the MS ones it works fine. Joe

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>For what it's worth, I really like the MS wheel. It took some getting used >to since I was ingrained with the feel of the T2, but I love it now. The MS >wheel feels slightly "grainy" in its movement (due interior gears I >suppose), but that didn't bother me for long. Also, the pedals don't have as >large of a range of movement as the T2 pedals, but again, I adjusted pretty >quickly. Optical readings mean no calibration or drift (thank God), and I >like the convenient buttons. The Sidewinder software is dynamite. I'm not >much into force feedback, although I tried it with MTM2 and it was kind of >fun.

I may seriously consider the Saitek wheel. They will have a non-force-feedback version based on the MS digital/optical technology. Joe

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>>I just bought the MS wheel, and will return it tomorrow. It's ***y >>awful! The wheel itself works well enough, I suppose. The pedals, >>though, are light and slide all over, and don't support separating gas >>from brake. >The MS wheel does support separate gas and brake. Set up a "profile" using >the Sidewinder software and make sure you hit the "settings" button in the >profile editor. Voila, separate gas and brake is one of the options along >with dead zone and range. >As to the pedals sliding on the floor, I had the same problem with the T2 >pedals (actually the T2 was worse). I solved it by placing a piece of wood >(8 to 10 inches wide by maybe 18 inches long) between the back of the pedal >unit and the wall. Works like a charm, but only if your computer backs up to >a wall of course.

Alison Hines site has a solution to the sliding pedals. The url for this is: http://www.simracing.com/~alison/gpl/ [address restored] and just look for the T2 tweaking guide. I haven't had a chance to implement it yet but it seems like it would work great. Now, all I need to do is find a comfortable chair. My tilting office chair just tilts back when I press on the pedals. Maybe I'll buy one of those Recaro office chairs....

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>>The pedals plug into the back of the wheel housing, and so >>can't be replaced with proper pedals. In GPL, the wheel is not readable >>in Generic mode; you need DI to see the wheel at all. There's no hope of >>getting a usable setup in GPL. >What's wrong with DirectInput? Works great for me. >What do you mean by "no hope of getting a usable setup"? >For what it's worth, I really like the MS wheel. It took some getting used >to since I was ingrained with the feel of the T2, but I love it now. The MS >wheel feels slightly "grainy" in its movement (due interior gears I >suppose), but that didn't bother me for long. Also, the pedals don't have as >large of a range of movement as the T2 pedals, but again, I adjusted pretty >quickly. Optical readings mean no calibration or drift (thank God), and I >like the convenient buttons. The Sidewinder software is dynamite. I'm not >much into force feedback, although I tried it with MTM2 and it was kind of >fun. >The only problem I've had is getting the wheel to work with N2 (DOS in W95 >shell). This is being addressed by MS, but I don't know what the outcome >will be. Apparently, some people have gotten it to work without a hitch. >Jim

> The only problem I've had is getting the wheel to work with N2 (DOS in W95 > shell). This is being addressed by MS, but I don't know what the outcome > will be. Apparently, some people have gotten it to work without a hitch. > Jim If the MS Wheel could work with TEN/NROS I would buy it immediately. Have you heard if this is a possibility? Bill / Amish on TEN

I don't know the in's and out's of it, but from what I understand, some people are not having any problems with N2 while others are. I don't think NROS would be any different than plain N2. It is a nebulous issue, but I think it has something to do with the type of gameport/sound card you have. I know MS is working on it. My particular issue seems to stem from the fact that I have two sound/gameport sources: an integrated sound chip and my new Monster Sound MX200. My advice: if having the wheel work with DOS games within W95 is important to you, make sure you buy it from a place that accepts returns. Jim

> As to the pedals sliding on the floor, I had the same problem with the T2 > pedals (actually the T2 was worse). I solved it by placing a piece of wood I hear you on that one! I was thinking of just filling the bottom with lead or sand to make it heavier to see if that would help. Also, I'm sure no-slip *** or somthing might also help.

>The only problem I've had is getting the wheel to work with N2 (DOS in W95 >shell). This is being addressed by MS, but I don't know what the outcome >will be. Apparently, some people have gotten it to work without a hitch. Well it says on the box that it will work as a normal wheel from a W95/W98 DOS box. As I said earlier I probably gonna get one of these (maybe tonight) but it sure as hell better work with N2... I hook up with a friend during the fall/winter to race. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >Jim

But does the Saitek work in DOS? I saw one at a local best buy, and it did look nice. However, their flight controller (X36) sucked in DOS and the setting would get lost in W95 on my PC. So I am a little hesitant to run right out and get one. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com >>For what it's worth, I really like the MS wheel. It took some getting used >>to since I was ingrained with the feel of the T2, but I love it now. The MS >>wheel feels slightly "grainy" in its movement (due interior gears I >>suppose), but that didn't bother me for long. Also, the pedals don't have as >>large of a range of movement as the T2 pedals, but again, I adjusted pretty >>quickly. Optical readings mean no calibration or drift (thank God), and I >>like the convenient buttons. The Sidewinder software is dynamite. I'm not >>much into force feedback, although I tried it with MTM2 and it was kind of >>fun. >I may seriously consider the Saitek wheel. They will have a >non-force-feedback version based on the MS digital/optical technology. >Joe

It's pedals are better than the Saitek's,(they actually don't slide all over) the wheel's grip is better and it feels better, and finally the buttons are better(especially the pads behind the wheel) -- Kevin "Q" Quattro VFX Animator Foundation Imaging

In addition to what I wrote earlier: The MS Wheel doesn't hog all your desk space! -- Kevin "Q" Quattro VFX Animator Foundation Imaging

OK one last question. Does it or does it not work in DOS (like for Nascar2). The box does indeed say the unit will act as a normal wheel in a DOS box. Does that include the buttons for joystick #1 and the pedals on the second axis? That is a normal wheel in my book. I fear that in the usual bullshit advertising lingo that it really means only the wheel will work and you are screwed if you want pedal and button action. And what is the deal with the apparent limited FF support in F1RS? I read others with the SC&T wheel claiming all sorts of subtle FF effects. What doesn't the MS wheel apparently do this? Also, I went back and looked at both wheels again. The pedal unit for the Saitek looks like a cheap piece of shit. The pedals themselves look like very soft plastic which would get scratched and mangled very easily. And the pedal unit connected to the wheel via a telephone type of chord. I figure at that point there is very little chance of DOS support on that unit. The box also says that the Saitek wheel uses the MS FF technology. So how are the 2 different? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > It's pedals are better than the Saitek's,(they actually don't slide >all over) the wheel's grip is better and it feels better, and finally >the buttons are better(especially the pads behind the wheel) >-- >Kevin "Q" Quattro >VFX Animator >Foundation Imaging

I stand corrected; gas and brake can be separated. I'm giving it a second chance. Propped up the back about 3" off the floor with a cardboard box, and blocked the front against my CH pedals. (A standalone unit would be nicer.) I still don't like the long throw, but I suppose that's a matter of getting used to. There's a setting on the setup util to change the pedal range of motion. I'll try that in a few minutes to see what it does. I suppose the pedals wouldn't be too bad with a big wedge shaped chunk of***supporting it. It would grip the floor better, and the pedals would be angled right for my sitting position. Michael.

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> >I just bought the MS wheel, and will return it tomorrow. It's ***y > >awful! The wheel itself works well enough, I suppose. The pedals, > >though, are light and slide all over, and don't support separating gas > >from brake. > The MS wheel does support separate gas and brake. Set up a "profile" using > the Sidewinder software and make sure you hit the "settings" button in the > profile editor. Voila, separate gas and brake is one of the options along > with dead zone and range. > As to the pedals sliding on the floor, I had the same problem with the T2 > pedals (actually the T2 was worse). I solved it by placing a piece of wood > (8 to 10 inches wide by maybe 18 inches long) between the back of the pedal > unit and the wall. Works like a charm, but only if your computer backs up to > a wall of course. > >The pedals plug into the back of the wheel housing, and so > >can't be replaced with proper pedals. In GPL, the wheel is not readable > >in Generic mode; you need DI to see the wheel at all. There's no hope of > >getting a usable setup in GPL. > What's wrong with DirectInput? Works great for me. > What do you mean by "no hope of getting a usable setup"? > For what it's worth, I really like the MS wheel. It took some getting used > to since I was ingrained with the feel of the T2, but I love it now. The MS > wheel feels slightly "grainy" in its movement (due interior gears I > suppose), but that didn't bother me for long. Also, the pedals don't have as > large of a range of movement as the T2 pedals, but again, I adjusted pretty > quickly. Optical readings mean no calibration or drift (thank God), and I > like the convenient buttons. The Sidewinder software is dynamite. I'm not > much into force feedback, although I tried it with MTM2 and it was kind of > fun. > The only problem I've had is getting the wheel to work with N2 (DOS in W95 > shell). This is being addressed by MS, but I don't know what the outcome > will be. Apparently, some people have gotten it to work without a hitch. > Jim

I stand corrected; gas and brake can be separated. I'm giving it a second chance. Propped up the back about 3" off the floor with a cardboard box, and blocked the front against my CH pedals. (A standalone unit would be nicer.) I still don't like the long throw, but I suppose that's a matter of getting used to. There's a setting on the setup util to change the pedal range of motion. I'll try that in a few minutes to see what it does. I suppose the pedals wouldn't be too bad with a big wedge shaped chunk of***supporting it. It would grip the floor better, and the pedals would be angled right for my sitting position. Michael.

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> >I just bought the MS wheel, and will return it tomorrow. It's ***y > >awful! The wheel itself works well enough, I suppose. The pedals, > >though, are light and slide all over, and don't support separating gas > >from brake. > The MS wheel does support separate gas and brake. Set up a "profile" using > the Sidewinder software and make sure you hit the "settings" button in the > profile editor. Voila, separate gas and brake is one of the options along > with dead zone and range.

Depends on your desk. I had to remove the center drawer to get the wheel clamp to go on. It doesn't suck, but it's also far from perfect. I'll allow it until the weekend to prove itself. Michael. > In addition to what I wrote earlier: > The MS Wheel doesn't hog all your desk space!

The Saitek wheel is a piece of mickey mouse junk. I saw it at Best Buy and laughed my ass off. What a joke when compared to the MS Wheel!

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>>For what it's worth, I really like the MS wheel. It took some getting used >>to since I was ingrained with the feel of the T2, but I love it now. The MS >>wheel feels slightly "grainy" in its movement (due interior gears I >>suppose), but that didn't bother me for long. Also, the pedals don't have as >>large of a range of movement as the T2 pedals, but again, I adjusted pretty >>quickly. Optical readings mean no calibration or drift (thank God), and I >>like the convenient buttons. The Sidewinder software is dynamite. I'm not >>much into force feedback, although I tried it with MTM2 and it was kind of >>fun. >I may seriously consider the Saitek wheel. They will have a >non-force-feedback version based on the MS digital/optical technology. >Joe

To answer a few questions: The R4 Force wheel requires Win 95 or 98 to operate. Programs, running in a dos box, will get Normal wheel, 4 buttons and pedal support, along with the base forces for centering. In our testing, with F1RS, and the FF patch, the forces were varied and pretty good. Re the pedals: They are very durable. After a week at ECTS, they look like near new, and they do not break. There seems to be some thinking that because they are not attached to a huge base, they are inferior. Rather than brute base weight, which will never withstand the forces of a seated player, we used the pedal forces to advantage. Pressing on the brake, or the gas, presses the base firmly into the floor, not away. This is because the pivot point is well back under your foot. The base is shaped so that ridges grip carpeting. There are *** feet as well, for smooth floors. We used a telephone style jack for the pedals, so that it can be extended easily. The cord quality is good, and that style jack works well in 1/2 a billion telephones. We route the cable out either side of the pedals, so it can be pushed up against a desk back or wall with no damage. Under the hood, they are the same chip, motor, gears, etc. It is a fully licensed product. Our differences are in the design. The wheel has 3 different angle positions, a stronger clamping mechanism, choice of paddle shift or stick (6 button switches are independent) dual pedal axis choice in controller setup. Mark "Specter" Starrett \ / Application Specialist _______\_(^)_/________ Saitek Industries Ltd + + *[_|Y|_]* + + http://www.saitekusa.com

Dude, wake up. Why would anyone spend the money on this cheesy attempt to compete with the MS wheel, when they can go buy the real thing. Trust me folks, stick to Bill Gate's product. It's far superior. Open the Saitek box at Best Buy and look at the contents, you'll see what I mean when you compare it to the MS wheel. Plain and simple, it should be labeled "Mattel Toys" on the box.

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>To answer a few questions: >The R4 Force wheel requires Win 95 or 98 to operate. Programs, running in a >dos box, will get Normal wheel, 4 buttons and pedal support, along with the >base forces for centering. >>And what is the deal with the apparent limited FF support in F1RS? >>I read others with the SC&T wheel claiming all sorts of subtle FF >>effects. What doesn't the MS wheel apparently do this? >In our testing, with F1RS, and the FF patch, the forces were varied and >pretty good. >Re the pedals: They are very durable. After a week at ECTS, they look like >near new, and they do not break. There seems to be some thinking that >because they are not attached to a huge base, they are inferior. Rather >than brute base weight, which will never withstand the forces of a seated >player, we used the pedal forces to advantage. Pressing on the brake, or the >gas, presses the base firmly into the floor, not away. This is because the >pivot point is well back under your foot. The base is shaped so that ridges >grip carpeting. There are *** feet as well, for smooth floors. We used a >telephone style jack for the pedals, so that it can be extended easily. The >cord quality is good, and that style jack works well in 1/2 a billion >telephones. We route the cable out either side of the pedals, so it can be >pushed up against a desk back or wall with no damage. >> The box also says that the Saitek wheel uses the >>MS FF technology. So how are the 2 different? >Under the hood, they are the same chip, motor, gears, etc. It is a fully >licensed product. Our differences are in the design. The wheel has 3 >different angle positions, a stronger clamping mechanism, choice of paddle >shift or stick (6 button switches are independent) dual pedal axis choice in >controller setup. >Mark "Specter" Starrett \ / >Application Specialist _______\_(^)_/________ >Saitek Industries Ltd + + *[_|Y|_]* + + >http://www.saitekusa.com

>But does the Saitek work in DOS? I saw one at a local best buy, >and it did look nice. However, their flight controller (X36) sucked >in DOS and the setting would get lost in W95 on my PC. So I >am a little hesitant to run right out and get one. I really don't know; I don't actually play any DOS games anymore. Joe

>The Saitek wheel is a piece of mickey mouse junk. I saw it at Best >Buy and laughed my ass off. What a joke when compared to the MS >Wheel! That's too bad. I like the MS digital/optical software, but don't really want to pay for FF at this point as I don't feel the software is ready to really take advantage of it (not sure if the hardware is ready either). Joe

I have owned both. I bought the Saitek first, because I always have drooled over their X36 flight system (even though I'm not a flight simmer). I figured their wheel would be excellent. I was horribly wrong. I bought the Saitek late last week and it really is crap. You have to put it together yourself, using a cheap plastic Allen/hex wrench tool, which is included. Of course, being plastic trying to turn metal screws, it shredded long before the wheel was tight. I had to use a real Allen wrench to finish the job. The pedals, in spite of what they tell you, are awful and do not stay down. The steering wheel is uncomfortable to drive. The resistance sucks. It takes up a HUGE amount of desktop space. The one I had would not center and tech support couldn't figure out why. I could go on and on. Rather than do that, I returned it yesterday. Today, I bought the MS Wheel. Man, what a world of difference. The pedals stay down (they have an elongated base which your heels rest on). The software is excellent. The wheel feels great in my hands (although the shifting paddles could be longer!). Easy to configure buttons. No stupid gearshift, taking up space and making two of the buttons hard to reach. The software made the wheel incredibly configurable--and you can save settings for various games. As I mentioned, I just got the wheel today, but it is incredibly better than the Saitek. Try it and see what you think. They are the same price, but I wouldn't spend $50 on the Saitek. I think the MS Wheel is actually worth the $199 it cost. I'll post more as I use the wheel more. Oh, I haven't tried N2 yet. I've read some people have problems with it, some people have it work perfectly. I'll tell you it works great in GPL. The Saitek was no fun to drive--the MS is great fun.

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>Dude, wake up. Why would anyone spend the money on this cheesy >attempt to compete with the MS wheel, when they can go buy the real >thing. Trust me folks, stick to Bill Gate's product. It's far >superior. Open the Saitek box at Best Buy and look at the contents, >you'll see what I mean when you compare it to the MS wheel. Plain and >simple, it should be labeled "Mattel Toys" on the box. >>To answer a few questions: >>The R4 Force wheel requires Win 95 or 98 to operate. Programs, running in a >>dos box, will get Normal wheel, 4 buttons and pedal support, along with the >>base forces for centering. >>>And what is the deal with the apparent limited FF support in F1RS? >>>I read others with the SC&T wheel claiming all sorts of subtle FF >>>effects. What doesn't the MS wheel apparently do this? >>In our testing, with F1RS, and the FF patch, the forces were varied and >>pretty good. >>Re the pedals: They are very durable. After a week at ECTS, they look like >>near new, and they do not break. There seems to be some thinking that >>because they are not attached to a huge base, they are inferior. Rather >>than brute base weight, which will never withstand the forces of a seated >>player, we used the pedal forces to advantage. Pressing on the brake, or the >>gas, presses the base firmly into the floor, not away. This is because the >>pivot point is well back under your foot. The base is shaped so that ridges >>grip carpeting. There are *** feet as well, for smooth floors. We used a >>telephone style jack for the pedals, so that it can be extended easily. The >>cord quality is good, and that style jack works well in 1/2 a billion >>telephones. We route the cable out either side of the pedals, so it can be >>pushed up against a desk back or wall with no damage. >>> The box also says that the Saitek wheel uses the >>>MS FF technology. So how are the 2 different? >>Under the hood, they are the same chip, motor, gears, etc. It is a fully >>licensed product. Our differences are in the design. The wheel has 3 >>different angle positions, a stronger clamping mechanism, choice of paddle >>shift or stick (6 button switches are independent) dual pedal axis choice in >>controller setup. >>Mark "Specter" Starrett \ / >>Application Specialist _______\_(^)_/________ >>Saitek Industries Ltd + + *[_|Y|_]* + + >>http://www.saitekusa.com

-- Rick Worrell Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com]

> The Saitek wheel is a piece of mickey mouse junk. I saw it at Best > Buy and laughed my ass off. What a joke when compared to the MS > Wheel! I just saw it at a fair in Stuttgart and I didn't even wait in line to try it. One look and three pulls on the wheel were enough to agree with you. Although it was not the FF version, maybe that's a little more rugged... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Saitek Responds This wheel requires less assembly than a T2 or Nascar, and is a 2 minute job. The tool is designed to protect against overtightening. When used as directed (not extended) it will not strip, unless excess force is used. The extended mode is for tightening resistance of the R4 Racing wheel, our non-force-feedback variant. The resistance is IDENTICAL to the Microsoft. Same motor, same drivers, same gears. Technical support hadn't encountered this. We were able to duplicate it by doing things I won't publish, because there's no point, but it was easy to resolve by powering the unit down, disconnecting the power supply, and reconnecting. The unit re-centered. The same issue was duplicated with the MS wheel. We responded to you the same day, but you had already exchanged the unit. Many users want the realism of a stick. The majority of racing vehicles have a separate shifter. The design is based on what gamer surveys asked for. Mark "Specter" Starrett \ / Application Specialist _______\_(^)_/________ Saitek Industries Ltd + + *[_|Y|_]* + + http://www.saitekusa.com

You call that little knob a realistic stick shift? Who are you trying to kid? Go look at the stick shift found on the arcade Daytona USA and Sega Rally machines. THOSE are realistically sized sticks. Can't you see, you're constantly having to defend your product because everyone is realizing how poor it is.

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>Many users want the realism of a stick. The majority of racing vehicles have >a separate shifter. The design is based on what gamer surveys asked for. >Mark "Specter" Starrett \ / >Application Specialist _______\_(^)_/________ >Saitek Industries Ltd + + *[_|Y|_]* + + >http://www.saitekusa.com

There's absolutely no reason to go through all this hassle. Just point your browser to www.provantage.com and order yourself a Microsoft Force Feedback Wheel for $149.95 plus $13.20 for shipping. At this price, the MS wheel is THE choice for everyone.

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>I was not overtightening the screws--they were not even halfway in >when the tool started shredding. Maybe I got a bad one, but there was >no way to put them in fully with the included tool. >Also, compare apples to apples--I don't care how much assembly it >takes compared to a T2 or a Nascar. Why not mention how much it takes >compared to the MS wheel? No attaching the wheel, no screwing in the >clamp, no height adjustment (might be a benefit for some, but I didn't >like that part--just my opinion). >>> The resistance sucks. >>The resistance is IDENTICAL to the Microsoft. Same motor, same drivers, same >>gears. >Feels different when I'm driving in a non-FF game. With the Saitek >with FF off, the wheel was way too loose. With FF on, the resitance >didn't feel correct and seemed to be dragging, or something. I can't >put it into words. The wheel was definitely not as configurable >through the control panel software as the MS one is, and that may be >part of the problem. >>> The one I had would not center and tech support couldn't figure out why. >>Technical support hadn't encountered this. We were able to duplicate it by >>doing things I won't publish, because there's no point, but it was easy to >>resolve by powering the unit down, disconnecting the power supply, and >>reconnecting. The unit re-centered. The same issue was duplicated with the >>MS wheel. We responded to you the same day, but you had already exchanged >>the unit. >You responded several days later to my original email. If you want to >make accusations that I was impatient, you had better have your facts >straight: >My first email was sent on Friday, October 16th with a clear >description of the problem. >Your first reply was on Tuesday, October 18th, asking a question. I >replied that evening. >Your next reply was the next day, Wednesday, October 19th. That is >when I returned the wheel, BEFORE I had received your reply. >I received another email from you guys later that day with the >suggested fix you list above. I had already tried that and it didn't >fix the problem. The MS wheel doesn't have this problem, nor can I >duplicate it. >Mark, I am not implying that your tech support handled this poorly. >On the contrary, I think they did a great job. I just didn't like the >implication that "you responded the same day but I was too impatient >and just dumped the wheel." >Basically, even if the suggested fix had worked, the wheel was too >uncomfortable, the pedals too light, and the deskspace required was >too great for me to keep the wheel. In other words, the parts of my >original post which you chose not to respond to. >>> No stupid gearshift, taking up space and making two of the >>> buttons hard to reach. >>Many users want the realism of a stick. The majority of racing vehicles have >>a separate shifter. The design is based on what gamer surveys asked for. >Point granted. I shouldn't have referred to it as "stupid" just >because I preferred having the buttons on the wheel. >>Mark "Specter" Starrett \ / >>Application Specialist _______\_(^)_/________ >>Saitek Industries Ltd + + *[_|Y|_]* + + >>http://www.saitekusa.com >-- >Rick Worrell >Sports *** Network >[link lost in import: /***.com]

Mark: I was not overtightening the screws--they were not even halfway in when the tool started shredding. Maybe I got a bad one, but there was no way to put them in fully with the included tool. Also, compare apples to apples--I don't care how much assembly it takes compared to a T2 or a Nascar. Why not mention how much it takes compared to the MS wheel? No attaching the wheel, no screwing in the clamp, no height adjustment (might be a benefit for some, but I didn't like that part--just my opinion). Feels different when I'm driving in a non-FF game. With the Saitek with FF off, the wheel was way too loose. With FF on, the resitance didn't feel correct and seemed to be dragging, or something. I can't put it into words. The wheel was definitely not as configurable through the control panel software as the MS one is, and that may be part of the problem. You responded several days later to my original email. If you want to make accusations that I was impatient, you had better have your facts straight: My first email was sent on Friday, October 16th with a clear description of the problem. Your first reply was on Tuesday, October 18th, asking a question. I replied that evening. Your next reply was the next day, Wednesday, October 19th. That is when I returned the wheel, BEFORE I had received your reply. I received another email from you guys later that day with the suggested fix you list above. I had already tried that and it didn't fix the problem. The MS wheel doesn't have this problem, nor can I duplicate it. Mark, I am not implying that your tech support handled this poorly. On the contrary, I think they did a great job. I just didn't like the implication that "you responded the same day but I was too impatient and just dumped the wheel." Basically, even if the suggested fix had worked, the wheel was too uncomfortable, the pedals too light, and the deskspace required was too great for me to keep the wheel. In other words, the parts of my original post which you chose not to respond to. Point granted. I shouldn't have referred to it as "stupid" just because I preferred having the buttons on the wheel. >Mark "Specter" Starrett \ / >Application Specialist _______\_(^)_/________ >Saitek Industries Ltd + + *[_|Y|_]* + + >http://www.saitekusa.com -- Rick Worrell Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com]