Shock: Joystick better than Wheel for GPL!

Aiming to get my lap times down in GPL, I went down to the store and bought one of Thrustmaster's F1 wheels (I think its called Nascar Pro in the US). I couldn't get on with it! I went back to my trusty old CH tiny joystick. This one looks like a radio control stick, and you operate it with your finger and thumb - left/right and throttle/brake. I found the main disadvantage with the wheel is I simply couldn't apply the opposite lock as fast as with the stick. Also the pedals didn't have the feel that I thought they would have, especially for braking. Does anyone else think the same, or is everybody a wheel fan? - Michael

I think it depends on what you are used to and how much you are willing to "retrain" yourself. I'm so used to my CH sticks and Pro Pedals that wheels just seem wrong. After quite a few laps, I managed to get about as quick in some sims with the TM GP1, but I went back to my trusty ol stick. I never liked the GP1's poor centering.

Try a GP1 wheel without modifying the as-shipped lock. At 180 degrees lock-to-lock, it's much quicker than a wheel with a 270 degree rotation. I modified mine for more, but that's just preference. I do run the linearity slider almost full left, though. What do you use with the joystick, and did you change that for the wheel? You're right about the Nascar Pro pedals. I use CH pedals, which you can use with your joystick as well. MUCH better than the TM ones. Apparently, some of the development people at Papyrus use a stick/pedal setup also. Steve B.

Hi Michael, I like my racing to be as realistic as possible. The wheel/pedal combo can't be beat (for realism). I like the wheels -- won't go back to joysticks for a racing sim, no matter how much quicker it is. > Aiming to get my lap times down in GPL, I went down to the store and bought > one of Thrustmaster's F1 wheels (I think its called Nascar Pro in the US). > I couldn't get on with it! How much time did you take to learn it? When I bought my first wheel itwas for N2. I had to alter my steering lock and such .. and did get better times -- especially on the long turns. You just have better control. All the stuff I learn about correcting slides and stuff can be applied to my daily driving (with a wheel). Do you find your self shifting from Neutral to 5th to correct a slide (in winter of course -- I don't drive like a manic -- thats saved the for sims ;) True, but not worth scrapping the wheel. Hmm.. Force-Feed Back brakes might help. Still its justanother controlling device to get used to. Once you have the hang of it, there is nothing like it. Jason. -------- Jason Monds (a.k.a. Clapper on GPL!) (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

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> Aiming to get my lap times down in GPL, I went down to the store and bought > one of Thrustmaster's F1 wheels (I think its called Nascar Pro in the US). > I couldn't get on with it! I went back to my trusty old CH tiny joystick. > This one looks like a radio control stick, and you operate it with your > finger and thumb - left/right and throttle/brake. > I found the main disadvantage with the wheel is I simply couldn't apply the > opposite lock as fast as with the stick. Also the pedals didn't have the > feel that I thought they would have, especially for braking. > Does anyone else think the same, or is everybody a wheel fan?

I wouldn't use a joystick for racing sims, even if I could cut lap times in half! I really prefer to simulate driving a car and using a joystick would ruin the experience for me... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

I still miss my old CH joystick - just like the one mentioned - but Win95 refuses to recognize it any more. The stick may have gone bad. If not for that, I probably wouldn't have bought my Formula T1 - I can't drive with my CH Flightstick Pro, it's far too large for fine control. Of course, the reason I like the small joystick was that the first decent racing sim I played was GP1 (World Circuit, actually) on the Amiga, with a small DIGITAL joystick. How they achieved the illusion of feel with a digital stick is beyond me, but I had blast with that game. Rick

Supposedly some people at Papyrus use joysticks for GPL. It's been questioned if this affected the way they set up the steering settings in GPL. Who knows for sure? I don't. :-) David G Fisher DmndDave

Gotta say it works for me. I'm loathe to go back to a wheel now, although I'd been thinking about an ACTLabs FF for some time. Michael.

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> >I couldn't get on with it! I went back to my trusty old CH tiny joystick. > Supposedly some people at Papyrus use joysticks for GPL. It's been > questioned if this affected the way they set up the steering settings in > GPL. Who knows for sure? I don't. :-) > David G Fisher > DmndDave

control. I know what you mean - the advantage of the little one is that your thumb and finger have much finer control than your whole hand. - Michael

I use the middle position for the stick, and I modified it to about 1/4 along from the left for the wheel setup also. Now that's something I haven't tried! - Michael

Hi, I always find joystick best. Dont have pedals but I use keyboard for gas & brakes bye Tapani

>The key is to *not* need to throw the steering from side to side! Why's that then? <g> Mike.

That Spa lap you sent me was definitely the best I've seen yet. Awesome. But, like I think I mentioned in my letter to you (maybe not), I'm still not sure about most of the other GPL tracks (shorter, tighter turns) and the ability to be smooth and also very fast. I'm going to set up a joystick and do some experimenting. It would be strange if people were actually faster with joysticks. After all this time, there's no way I could ever feel comfortable using a stick instead of my wheel. David G Fisher DmndDave

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>It's indeed possible, but as you've seen GPL can be driven very >smoothly - >and fast - with a wheel. The key is to *not* need to throw the steering >from side to side! >Cheers, >Richard >-- >We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our

opinions >whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

>There might be a slight tradeoff of immersiveness but I feel much more in >control of the car. With the joystick, I can slide into a turn much better >because I can catch the tail if it kicks out much easier. And I can dive into >a turn with more confidence. Did you try calibrating the wheel with less steering input? That is only turn it half or less of its travel side to side when calibrating it. The steering will be a lot quicker. Lutrell, Dsr#74 :-) http://www2.scca.com/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/photogal/dsr-74.jpg

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>>Supposedly some people at Papyrus use joysticks for GPL. It's been >>questioned if this affected the way they set up the steering settings in >>GPL. Who knows for sure? I don't. :-) >It's indeed possible, but as you've seen GPL can be driven very smoothly - >and fast - with a wheel. The key is to *not* need to throw the steering >from side to side!

I agree Richard, the key it seems is to be able to drive smoothly which is pretty hard with the CH Mach series, but with the advantage of being able to snap on some opposite lock when you really need it. I am in the same position it seems as Michael in the original message. I used my CH Mach3 for the demo, getting a 1:06:90 and 1:31:4x. Since getting the full thing I felt I could go a little faster at both these places with the default setups... I'm not exactly sure what happened some days ago but the controls went all wierd on me.. Braking was just about impossible. Only took me a few hours this morning running different calibs to figure out it had all been reset, and the settings I had got used to.. Therefore it *really* helps to have the thing calibrated properly.. ;-) Now I have a very strange problem that I don't trust the car. :) Thanks, -:http://www.simproject.com/ccg/

That would be nice - but I have not yet reached that state of GPL nirvana:-) - Michael

% Aiming to get my lap times down in GPL, I went down to the store and bought % one of Thrustmaster's F1 wheels (I think its called Nascar Pro in the US). % I couldn't get on with it! I went back to my trusty old CH tiny joystick. % This one looks like a radio control stick, and you operate it with your % finger and thumb - left/right and throttle/brake. % I found the main disadvantage with the wheel is I simply couldn't apply the % opposite lock as fast as with the stick. Also the pedals didn't have the % feel that I thought they would have, especially for braking. % Does anyone else think the same, or is everybody a wheel fan? Yep, not being able to flick the wheel from left to right as quickly as one can throw the stick left to right is a disadvantage (the same one real race car drivers have by the way <G>). When I switched from my T1 (totally different steering feel and pedals). It took me quite some time to adjust to my NASCAR Pro. I think if you give it some time you will adjust. The same goes from changing from one type of real car to another (say front wheel vs. rear wheel drive). While it may be a disadvantage to have to move a wheel its full motion to apply opposite lock, it's more realistic. Once you learn to drive in a manner suiting your controller (be it wheel or joystick), I personally believe you will find that you can go just as fast with either. It just takes time and some mental/physical adjusting. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Dave Kaemmer appears to have a peculiar control setup. If you watch any of his replays (included with GPL) you'll see he has amazing control over the wheel, and is able to apply opposite lock easily and efficiently, and go from lock to lock at incredible speed. Contrast this with Alison Hine's replay, where she appears to have a similar degree of control over the wheel as myself and most other racers I've seen who use a wheel. To me it looks reminiscent of drivers using slomo in GP2, where they could move the wheel from lock to lock easily and retain total control and confidence. I'd like to know what controller Kaemmer used for these laps. -- Spudgun

It's not so strange... a joystick is simply a better controller. This is not lost on the auto industry, at least Mercedes-Benz are seriously looking into using a joystick instead of a wheel in production cars. I wouldn't be surprised if there are production cars with joysticks in 5-10 years. Take a look at http://www.mercedes.com/e/innovation/rd/forschung_apr97.htm /Jan

While a joystick has some advantages, it also has some disadvantages. Being able to rapidly steer from lock to lock is actually a disadvantage for the average Joe. There are lots of accidents today caused by oversteering and this would exacerbate that problem. Secondly people have a tendency to use the wheel as a leverage point to slide themselves around in the seat (or to hold themselves from sliding in the seat.) Can you imagine how many crashes there would be as people made hard turns, then slid in the seat immediately applying opposite lock to their wheels. They work much better when a person's ***is fimly secured, like with a jetfighter pilot. Further, because slip angle and maintaining a certain static coeficient of friction aren't as important to a pilot, he is less concerned with steady input. One big advantage to a joystick is you have feedback of which way the wheels are pointed as opposed to a low ratio wheel. >It's not so strange... a joystick is simply a better controller. This is not

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>lost >on the auto industry, at least Mercedes-Benz are seriously looking into >using a joystick instead of a wheel in production cars. >I wouldn't be surprised if there are production cars with joysticks in 5-10 >years. >Take a look at [link lost in import] >/Jan

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> >Apparently, some of > >the development people at Papyrus use a stick/pedal setup also. > Dave Kaemmer appears to have a peculiar control setup. If you watch any > of his replays (included with GPL) you'll see he has amazing control > over the wheel, and is able to apply opposite lock easily and > efficiently, and go from lock to lock at incredible speed. > Contrast this with Alison Hine's replay, where she appears to have a > similar degree of control over the wheel as myself and most other racers > I've seen who use a wheel. > To me it looks reminiscent of drivers using slomo in GP2, where they > could move the wheel from lock to lock easily and retain total control > and confidence. I'd like to know what controller Kaemmer used for these > laps.

he uses a joystick to steer with, hence the incredible speed of going lock to lock. but i'm amazed at how precisely he can steer with a stick!

There's a guy by the name of "Wolfgang" at the APEX forum who claims that he's done a 1:04 with a stick at Watkin's Glen. He said the steering in GPL feels awful to him with a wheel, but with a stick he loves it. David G Fisher DmndDave >he uses a joystick to steer with, hence the incredible speed of >going lock to lock. but i'm amazed at how precisely he can steer >with a stick!

I also use the CH-stick. I'm absolutely not happy with it, because it's to sensible. 2. Problem: when breaking suddenly, I'm usually not able to maintain direction because of influencing the steering function. Today I buy a wheel. Jens On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:54:08 +0100, "Michael Powell"

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>Aiming to get my lap times down in GPL, I went down to the store and bought >one of Thrustmaster's F1 wheels (I think its called Nascar Pro in the US). >I couldn't get on with it! I went back to my trusty old CH tiny joystick. >This one looks like a radio control stick, and you operate it with your >finger and thumb - left/right and throttle/brake. >I found the main disadvantage with the wheel is I simply couldn't apply the >opposite lock as fast as with the stick. Also the pedals didn't have the >feel that I thought they would have, especially for braking. >Does anyone else think the same, or is everybody a wheel fan? >- Michael

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Also had this problem - already solved. Forget the 2-joysticks option in Win95. Configure the joysticks (I have two) as CH-flightstick pro. Works fine for me with Win95 and Win98. Jens On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:27:38 -0400, "Rick Baumhauer"

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>I still miss my old CH joystick - just like the one mentioned - but Win95 >refuses to recognize it any more. The stick may have gone bad. If not for >that, I probably wouldn't have bought my Formula T1 - I can't drive with my >CH Flightstick Pro, it's far too large for fine control. >Of course, the reason I like the small joystick was that the first decent >racing sim I played was GP1 (World Circuit, actually) on the Amiga, with a >small DIGITAL joystick. How they achieved the illusion of feel with a >digital stick is beyond me, but I had blast with that game. >Rick

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> applying opposite lock to their wheels. They work much better when a > person's ***is fimly secured, like with a jetfighter pilot. Further, > because slip angle and maintaining a certain static coeficient of friction > aren't as important to a pilot, he is less concerned with steady input. One > big advantage to a joystick is you have feedback of which way the wheels are > pointed as opposed to a low ratio wheel. While I like a joystick for sim driving, I've got to disagree with you about using it in real cars. The wheel has an advantage (in real life) because it is mechanically connected to the wheels, and channels important information back to the driver this way. The theory is that humans sense force much more accurately than displacement. That is, it's easier to gauge how strongly the wheel fights you, rather than noting how far you've turned the wheel. At one extreme, the premier fly-by-wire fighter, the F-16, has a fixed, stationary control stick. The pilot pulls or pushes against it, but it doesn't move. Also, knowing a little about flying airplanes, control feedback is just as important to a pilot as it is to you driving a car. I imagine a fighter pilot flying at the edge of high speed stall is much more interested in tactile feedback than you or I driving in traffic. Michael.

Hi David, I'm not sure how much memory you have, but if you have 128 megs RAM and take part in some of these online races you can record a replay which will contain pretty much practice + the whole race for a full field of 20 online cars. You can then play the replay through the different drivers***pit view to see their style and how they achieve their times. Highly recommended. I hosted VROC sessions pretty much the whole weekend and played back some of the replays I got, and looking at other drivers you can definitely see variation in the styles. Personally, I drive "smooth", stay on the black marks for most of the time <G> and have gotten pretty decent results. Then again I don't care if I'm ever "the fastest GPL driver", and I would never consider giving up the immersion of my wheel for the added speed of a joystick. Give that replay thing a try if you have enough memory, warning though, I started watching the replays and spent 2 hours before I noticed that it was time for bed... Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>That Spa lap you sent me was definitely the best I've seen yet. Awesome. >But, like I think I mentioned in my letter to you (maybe not), I'm still not >sure about most of the other GPL tracks (shorter, tighter turns) and the >ability to be smooth and also very fast. I'm going to set up a joystick and >do some experimenting. It would be strange if people were actually faster >with joysticks. After all this time, there's no way I could ever feel >comfortable using a stick instead of my wheel. >David G Fisher >DmndDave >>It's indeed possible, but as you've seen GPL can be driven very >smoothly - >>and fast - with a wheel. The key is to *not* need to throw the steering >>from side to side! >>Cheers, >>Richard >>-- >>We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our >opinions >>whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

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> Hi David, > I'm not sure how much memory you have, but if you have 128 megs RAM and > take part in some of these online races you can record a replay which > will contain pretty much practice + the whole race for a full field of 20 > online cars. You can then play the replay through the different drivers***pit > view to see their style and how they achieve their times. Highly recommended.

If you have less than 128 and would like longer replays, adding the following to CORE.INI allows you to save as much replay as you want. The value I have here allows for 20 meg worth. This is more than enough for a short race and practice seession, or a medium race and most of the practice. I think the default value is 2000. [ Replay ] replayMemoryOverride = 20000 And a mighty fine host you were, too.. :) -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Neat tip! I upgraded to 128megs RAM just for GPL, but it has helped out win98 too, especially since I've been hosting race a lot. If with that setting you can save 20megs worth of replays then that should work out fine for most people with 64 megs RAM, the replays I've saved from 20 car online races include practice + race, come out at the largest to 29-30megs, so 20 megs should get you most if not all of the race. Also thanks for the kinds words, I had a blast hosting VROC races this weekend, especially since I hosted a bunch of races on some of the tracks that aren't as common for online races, and so I forced myself to learn these tracks. Finally I can turn a lap or two at the 'ring without shift-r and also found out what fun Mexico and Kyalami are. Amazing to be following a train of 4-5 cars through those German hills. Thanks to all the great drivers who dropped by and added to the nice learning atmosphere at those online sessions. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva