Trans-Am sim?

Thought I saw something in here referring to the above, could someone enlighten me? Feel free to e-mail. Regards, Rik. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Remove SPAMKILL from Return Address to reply via e-mail /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Work on Trans Am Racing '68-'72 is progressing and we are hoping to reach our beta milestone soon. Like many projects, it is taking us longer than we had hoped to reach this milestone but we're getting close, believe me. We want this to be a top-notch sim and GT is looking for a AAA title to launch their 'GT Racing' franchise so it'll be done when it's done. I know I've promised more information in the past and it appears that quite a few of you are keenly interested in the details; I just need to make sure that things are nailed down before we start announcing tracks and drivers and such. Just to bring everybody up to date, Trans Am Racing '68-'72 is a racing simulation that attempts to capture the e***ment of one of the most glorious periods in American sedan racing, the SCCA's Trans Am Manufacturer's Championship between 1968 and 1972. The sim focuses on the raucous V-8 powered pony cars raced in the O-2 (over 2-liter) class, including the Ford Mustang Boss 302, Chevy Camaro Z28, Pontiac Firebird TransAm, Plymouth AAR Barracuda and 8 others with roughly 30 total car/team variations. Tracks have not been completely nailed down but will definitely include most of the major ones (with the exception of two Northern California venues, unfortunately). Features will include extensive car setup options, full pit-stops with animated pit workers, a comprehensive damage model, and a full multi-player career mode. While the sim will feature an optional "relaxed-realism" (i.e. arcade) driving model the focus will be on the simulation, historically and realistically speaking. We hope to have a demo out soon so that we can garner feedback on the handling and performance of the sim. Please bear with us while we work the kinks out on what is sure to be a fun and exciting title! Todd Heckel Lead Programmer

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>Thought I saw something in here referring to the above, could someone >enlighten me? Feel free to e-mail. >Regards, Rik. >-- >\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > Remove SPAMKILL from Return > Address to reply via e-mail >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

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> PCGamer has an article on Trans Am Racing and the cars are at > Riverside. I > passed up a chance to race at Riverside just before it closed so now > maybe I > can try it in a sim. > Lutrell, > Dsr#74 :-) > http://www2.scca.com/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/photogal/dsr-74.jpg

I ran the last SCCA race in July, 1988 at Riverside in GT1. Lost the motor in qualifying but got some in car video of the long cource. Really looking forward to the Trans Am sim. Hope GPL hasn't spoiled me too much. Marty

Hi Todd, I say, take your time :o). IMO it's more important to get it right, but not to right, cause then you'll never be finished :o). The hype around GPL will perhaps be a little less later on too. GPL is certainly a good product but I miss some things. First the simulation of g-forces I still think is best done with sounds. The moving***pit in GPL is probably to subtle and I only hear tyre squelling when I've already lost traction (could be my sound card acting up?). A use of 3D sound to hear the four wheels from where they should be could be a better solution than just a moving***pit and tyre squelling when traction is already lost. I also believe the tyre squelling should start before the loss of traction would be a good substitute for the lack of g-forces. The fisheye view from the***pit is IMO too much in GPL. It definetely adds to the sense of speed but it also makes the car look bigger than it really is. I think Geoff Crammond did this better in GP2. If GP2 had a letter box screen it would have had a very good***pit view where you probably had seen parts of the front wheels as well. Hopefully we'll see this in GP3 :o). The AI in GPL, okay it's very good that they act natural, but if we never see them why bother :o)? What I miss in GPL is an easy way of setting the strength of the AI. Take Monza for example. There should be an easy way to make the AI lap in the 1:35's as well as the 1:28's, so you can develop with the AI. Say you start at 1:38's at Monza and drive at the back of the pack to learn the track. I think the way to make the AI go slower should be done in the following way :o); For slower AI make them brake earlier, drive slower through the turns and start to accelerate later. This probably sounds obvious, but I've seen many racing sims lowering the top speed of the AI and even if you're incredibly slow out of corners you whosh past them on the straight. IMO, everybody can accelerate at, or very close to otimal, but braking, cornering and the start of acceleration is another matter. It's very easy to go straight in a real racing car, it's not easy in racing sims, unless you have some "reduce steering with speed" function. This is missing in GPL, but working very well in GP2. Sure, after a lot of practice in GPL you have no trouble going straight, but that's too unrealistic in my opinion. /Christer, entered the 1:29's at Monza this evening (retail version), slowly getting there :o) -- [link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

Hi Christer! Nice to hear from you havent seen much in the newsgroup from you lately. Well, I know what you mean about not too right. Were not there yet. I know what you mean, I have the same problem locking up the tires going into the first Lesmo and Parabolica. Unfortunately, 3D sound takes up CPU cycles. We do have more***pit motion than GPL. Im experimenting with different sounds for different portions of the tire slip range. Ill have to take a look again at GP2; were having a bit of a problem with the sense of speed ourselves. I do like the letterbox thing though. Im still working on how to slow down our AI cars. I agree that just limiting top speed doesnt work very well. Itll probably end up having to do with cornering look-ahead and monitoring of tire slip. Speed-sensitive steering might help, but I think its really a dynamics problem. Things are just happening a lot faster (obviously), so in one pass through the simulation loop a lot more ground is covered. I still have trouble running next to the grass in GPL without slipping off. Im running consistent mid 1:32s with an occasional dip into the 1:31s (I qualified on the front row the other day but couldnt keep up once the race started). We re getting some TSWs soon so hopefully thatll help my lap times. I thought the lap record for Monza was in the 1:30s? Sounds like youre doing pretty good! Todd

Hmmm, Laguna Seca and Sears Point, right? Cheers, Harald

Christer Andersson heeft geschreven in bericht The Interesting post. I had a long thought about this. How can you model G-forces with sound? One can have a lot of tire squeal at low speeds without a lot of G-forces and drive flatout through a fast bend without a tire squeal. So how would you model this? IMHO it can only be done with a moving ***pit. And I think GPL is just right. Another (arcade)sim with a moving ***pit is TOCA and that one is totally unrealistic. The head-panning of CPR another idea but I don't like this, so I hope Trans-Am will stick within GPL boundaries! Another thing is that with TOCA I suffer from motion sickness after some driving. Please not too much moving***pit! Btw, a tire doesn't squeal before loss of traction. I think you forget that in '67 the drivers had a lot more car in front of their eyes. They were lying in the cars as opposed to the '90 where they are sitting in the car. So, yeah, you have a much larger***pit area in front of you. Alison Hines made an AI-tweak. You can race in the middle of the action with this! You're 100% correct and I hope that the Trans-Am developers will have a good at this subject! These cars were just undrivable and IMHO this has nothing to do with the "reduce steering with speed" option. Cheers, Harald

Greetings, I believe that The Need For Speed SE (original release) was the best example of using sound to simulate the realism of losing traction (I think they lost this feature in successive releases). It would be a good reference in my opinion. I'm really glad to hear that you guys are still working on this Todd. I've been anxiously anticipating the release of this title, or at least a demo, since I heard of it. I hope you don't focus too much on moving***pits as I find this approach a bit disorienting. Thanks for the info, and good luck in your programming efforts. Later... Tony Long http://home.att.net/~tonylong [address restored] <Snip>

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> >First the simulation of g-forces I still think is best done with sounds. > The > >moving***pit in GPL is probably to subtle and I only hear tyre squelling > when > >I've already lost traction (could be my sound card acting up?). A use of 3D > >sound to hear the four wheels from where they should be could be a better > >solution than just a moving***pit and tyre squelling when traction is > already > >lost. I also believe the tyre squelling should start before the loss of > traction > >would be a good substitute for the lack of g-forces.

I'm also starting to be a bit sceptic about moving***pits. I remember in GP2 I was actually thinking the***pit was tilting a bit in the corners, but at a closer look it wasn't :o). /Christer

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> Greetings, > I believe that The Need For Speed SE > (original release) was the best example of > using sound to simulate the realism of losing > traction (I think they lost this feature in > successive releases). It would be a good > reference in my opinion. I'm really glad to > hear that you guys are still working on this > Todd. I've been anxiously anticipating the > release of this title, or at least a demo, > since I heard of it. I hope you don't focus > too much on moving***pits as I find this > approach a bit disorienting. Thanks for the > info, and good luck in your programming > efforts. > Later... > Tony Long > http://home.att.net/~tonylong [address restored] > <Snip> > > >First the simulation of g-forces I still think is best done with sounds. > > The > > >moving***pit in GPL is probably to subtle and I only hear tyre squelling > > when > > >I've already lost traction (could be my sound card acting up?). A use of 3D > > >sound to hear the four wheels from where they should be could be a better > > >solution than just a moving***pit and tyre squelling when traction is > > already > > >lost. I also believe the tyre squelling should start before the loss of > > traction > > >would be a good substitute for the lack of g-forces.

-- [link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

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> Christer Andersson heeft geschreven in bericht > >First the simulation of g-forces I still think is best done with sounds. > The > >moving***pit in GPL is probably to subtle and I only hear tyre squelling > when > >I've already lost traction (could be my sound card acting up?). A use of 3D > >sound to hear the four wheels from where they should be could be a better > >solution than just a moving***pit and tyre squelling when traction is > already > >lost. I also believe the tyre squelling should start before the loss of > traction > >would be a good substitute for the lack of g-forces. > Interesting post. I had a long thought about this. How can you model > G-forces with sound? One can have a lot of tire squeal at low speeds without > a lot of G-forces and drive flatout through a fast bend without a tire > squeal. So how would you model this? IMHO it can only be done with a moving >***pit. And I think GPL is just right. Another (arcade)sim with a moving >***pit is TOCA and that one is totally unrealistic. The head-panning of CPR > another idea but I don't like this, so I hope Trans-Am will stick within GPL > boundaries! Another thing is that with TOCA I suffer from motion sickness > after some driving. Please not too much moving***pit! Btw, a tire doesn't > squeal before loss of traction.

Geoff Crammond did it beautifully in GP2 :o). The problem we have in racing sims is we dont feel g-forces. G-forces tell you if you're accelerating at maximum without loosing it, braking at maximum without loosing it and cornering at maximum without loosing it. Geoff used sound as a substitute for g-forces. If you know the expression "Hollywood tyres", this is what you get in GP2. When the stress on a tyre reaches a certain level it starts too squeal, thus you can hear how stressed it is. The squealling in GP2 started before you loost the grip and then increased in volume the closer you got to the maximum of traction. With a little practice you could feel the car. Your brain translated the squealling info into information on how close the car was to the limit. It's the perfect way to substitute g-forces, in my own opinion, of course :o). I've driven a lot in GP2, F1RS and some hours in N2, NFS2SE, ICR1, ICR2, and only in N2 and GPL I get the feeling the***pit view is enlarging the car, making it look like the car is taken up more road than it really is. I realize that a fisheye view is needed in racing sims, but IMO it's exaggerated in N2 and GPL. I would prefer to chose the level in GPL, as you did in N2. I believe the ini-files are to complicated for anyone to start fiddle with, just to set the AI to a user prefered level. Noone would drive them if they were undrivable ;o). Remember they didn't use seat belts those days. Do you believe anyone would go 300+ kph if they had trouble keeping it straight? As you probably know if you let go off the steering wheel in a corner the car would want go straight instead of turning, it worked like this in '67 F1's too. If a driver back then noticed his car was pulling to the left or to the right, he would probably pit and say "It's pulling to the ...". If we let go off hour steering wheel in a sim, it would center itself, but the car would probably pull to the left one time and to the right next time, so until we get force feedback, the reduce steering with speed is IMO the best solution :o). /Christer -- [link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

> Hi Christer! Nice to hear from you havent seen much in the newsgroup > from you lately. Been GPLing :o). I had a very frustrating session racing against the AI today at Monza. I started from 12:th grid position over and over again. The AI brakes later than me and when ever I hear tyre squealling and are along side an AI, the AI brakes better, sometimes I brake without any tyre squealling at all and then I'm at the same braking power as the AI. This means I have to remember the angle of my foot to brake correctly. I need a***pit to sit in where my feet are placed the same every time I sit in it. Now I have a pedal unit standing on the floor, never the same distance from the chair, never the same foot angle were the perfect braking power is. Please, Todd, give us sound feedback when we're close to the optimum. In other words give us Hollywood tyres :o). I guess this is a big problem, since most sim racers almost demand the speed sensation. I never thought about this during my 800 hours in GP2. I've driven some Formula Ford for real at 200+ kph and believe me there's no speed sensation :o). Just dont make the fisheye view as large as the car will look much bigger than it really is. IMO GP2 got it spot on. I never felt as if there were no room for me inside another car entering a corner when there was in the replay. N2 had me fooled big time in this department. The record is 1:28.1 by Dave Mansell and it's a very smooth lap. I've just listened to it and there are no tyre squealling when he brakes. Not on my Soundblaster 16 anyway. Dave uses a Hyper Stimulator - [link lost in import] -. /Christer -- [link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

Christer Andersson heeft geschreven in bericht Really? I also spent a lot of time with GP2, it is a great sim, but never ever got that feeling of the tire-squeal-sound..... I think it just comes down to personal preferences, at least to me;-) Ah, I understand now what you mean. Personal preferences again, I think.<g> Tthat's perfectly OK with me. I think you are always comparing with GP2 (as a standard). I don't, because I take Papy's sims as a standard. Personal preferences again. I also prefer the N2 way of level control. It's the best IMHO, and the fact that there is already an AI tweak for GPL is prove that this was a wrong decision by the GPL team. But I can live with it. >Noone would drive them if they were undrivable ;o). Sorry. I didn't mean it this way. I used it in a figurative way (as opposed to modern F1 cars). I thought you were blaming the lack of grip to the absence of the reduce steering with speed option. Ah, never mind....... Harald

Thank you all for the great response to my post, particularly to Todd; nice to see the developers keeping an eye on the NG. Looking forward to the sim esp. as a one time owner of a '70 Mustang and a '70 Camaro. Heh-heh, that noise just sends shivers up my spine... Best Regards, Rik. >Work on Trans Am Racing '68-'72 is progressing and we are hoping to reach >our beta milestone soon.<<<Loads of great info snipped>>>

Have a look at The Extinct Track Archive: [link lost in import] The main gig is RIR, and I have a few pics of the race you speak of. The updated shots will be available this weekend (busy bee lately), but the pics there now are quite good, and should get those memories flowing! I currently have well over 100 pics of various events at RIR, and a few dozen from OMS (Ontario), most of which were provided by a friend who once marshaled both tracks, and who is also a professional photographer...Not quick with the updates, but I hope you enjoy the site nonetheless. =) Cheers! Marc

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> > PCGamer has an article on Trans Am Racing and the cars are at > > Riverside. I > > passed up a chance to race at Riverside just before it closed so now > > maybe I > > can try it in a sim. > > Lutrell, > > Dsr#74 :-) > > [link lost in import] > I ran the last SCCA race in July, 1988 at Riverside in GT1. Lost the > motor in qualifying but got some in car video of the long cource. > Really looking forward to the Trans Am sim. Hope GPL hasn't spoiled me > too much. > Marty

-- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

>Thank you all for the great response to my post, particularly to Todd; nice >to see the developers keeping an eye on the NG. You're quite welcome. I'm trying to spend as much time as possible staying up to date with the newsgroup. Things are pretty hectic right now so please excuse the occasional lapses. Feel free to send me e-mail directly if anybody has specific questions; I'll do my best to respond as quickly as possible. As a current owner of a '70 Boss 302 and a '69 Grande with the factory 351W 4bbl (vinyl roof and all, what a sleeper), not to mention past ownership of at least four other Mustangs (including a '70 Mach 1 351C 4bbl) I know EXACTLY what noise you're talking about. To be honest, give me the raspy, throaty rumble of an American V8 at full song, or even at idle (especially with a nice rumpity-rump) over that sewing-machine Ferrari sound any day. Now, about that Camaro... ;^) Todd

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> On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:54:26 -0500, > >To be honest, give me the raspy, > >throaty rumble of an American V8 at full song, or even at idle > (especially > >with a nice rumpity-rump) over that sewing-machine Ferrari sound any > day. > Sewing machine Ferrari sound? Let me tell you a story. I was at the > 1969 Daytona 24 hours. I was on a pit crew and was down in the pit > area > inside the tri-oval. When the P3 Ferrari's would come by, (about 40 > yards away), > it would take the breath out of your lungs. You would be talking to > someone and > it suddenly would be like your breath couldn't get any traction.. :) > It would make you sputter and cough.... Your ears didn't fare any > better.. :) > I was also at the next-to last U.S. GP at Phoenix. When any of the > F1's would come by, the sound was like an icepick in your ear. > Particularly > the Ferrari's which were driven that year by Mansell and Prost. It was > *impossible* to not use earplugs IMO. They were selling them for $1 > walking > through the stands just like a coca-cola vendor. > For what its worth, I have been around racecars of *all* kinds, all of > my 55 years and the two most *painful* sounds are funny cars/top fuel > and those G*D DAMN Ferraris............ > -- > // rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com //

I remember being at the U.S. G.P.s at Long Beach and Phoenix and there was one car with a sound worse than the Ferrari. I think it was the V12 Matra. Marty

>For what its worth, I have been around racecars of *all* kinds, all of >my 55 years and the two most *painful* sounds are funny cars/top fuel >and those G*D DAMN Ferraris............ Great story! To be honest, I love the sound of any kind of high-performance machinery - painful or not. I'll admit I was trolling a bit with that statement, but it was worth the result. I'm a bit biased - I've been around V8's all my life. I promise to do 50 laps in the Ferrari at Monaco as punishment! :o) Todd

I know exactly how you felt...The one sound that really gets my hair on end is the Rolls Royce powered P51 Mustangs! =) > Sewing machine Ferrari sound? Let me tell you a story. I was at the > 1969 Daytona 24 hours. I was on a pit crew and was down in the pit area > inside the tri-oval. When the P3 Ferrari's would come by, (about 40 yards away), > it would take the breath out of your lungs. You would be talking to someone and > it suddenly would be like your breath couldn't get any traction.. :) -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

Hi all, Sometime ago I made a homepage (just for the fun of it) with MP3 motorsports sound. I never announced it publicly, because I was allowed a homepage there if it caused not too much strain. Anyway if ya wanna hear a 1994 Ferrari V12 and others sounds like a Ford GT40 or Lola T70 go here: http://www.boers.com cheers, Harald

Internal combustion (as well as steam) engines are called exactly that..."engines". "Motors" are operated by electricity. > but if you love the sound of motors, it is > incredible. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

> For what its worth, I have been around racecars of *all* kinds, all of > my 55 years and the two most *painful* sounds are funny cars/top fuel > and those G*D DAMN Ferraris............ When I was younger and stupider I was in the paddock of Road Atlanta for the SCCA Runoffs and standing right next to Jeff Miller's Kohler-powered CSR or DSR car as they were firing it up and getting it up to temperature. I think that probably did as much damage to my hearing as any other racing car or venue before or since. Ob Trans-Am Sim requests: Please please please (and I don't beg often) include Lime Rock Park, and as a less important suggestion, don't forget the small-bore racers even if they have to be included as a later expansion pack. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "aclaffie" on TEN/NROS Alleged racing writer for "The Racin Paper" BGNN Online's Busch Grand National North coverage: www.bgnn.com "We cover Busch North cause, well, nobody else wants to"

> Internal combustion (as well as steam) engines are called exactly > that..."engines". > "Motors" are operated by electricity. Yea, as in General Motors. We only make electric cars. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

No, any device that converts energy into mechanical energy is a motor. > Internal combustion (as well as steam) engines are called exactly > that..."engines". > "Motors" are operated by electricity. Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

Websters definition of motor: motor, n. 1. a comparatively small and powerful engine, esp. an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like. 2. any self-powered vehicle. 3. a person or thing that imparts motion, esp. a contrivance, as a steam engine, that receives and modifies energy from some natural source in order to utilize it in driving machinery. 4. Also called electric motor. Elect. a machine that converts electrical energy into mechanical energy, as an induction motor. 5. motors, stocks or bonds in automobile companies. adj. 6. pertaining to or operated by a motor. 7. of, for, by, or pertaining to motor vehicles: motor freight. 8. designed or for automobiles, their drivers, or their passengers: The hotel has a motor lobby in its parking garage for picking up and discharging passengers. 9. causing or producing motion. 10. Physiol. conveying an impulse that results or tends to result in motion, as a nerve. 11. Psychol., Physiol. Also, motoric. of, pertaining to, or involving muscular movement: a motor response; motor images. v.i. 12. to ride or travel in an automobile; drive: They motored up the coast. v.t. Paul

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> Internal combustion (as well as steam) engines are called exactly > that..."engines". > "Motors" are operated by electricity. > > but if you love the sound of motors, it is > > incredible. > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ----------

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>On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:54:26 -0500, >>To be honest, give me the raspy, >>throaty rumble of an American V8 at full song, or even at idle (especially >>with a nice rumpity-rump) over that sewing-machine Ferrari sound any day. >Sewing machine Ferrari sound? Let me tell you a story. I was at the >1969 Daytona 24 hours. I was on a pit crew and was down in the pit area >inside the tri-oval. When the P3 Ferrari's would come by, (about 40 yards away), >it would take the breath out of your lungs. You would be talking to someone and >it suddenly would be like your breath couldn't get any traction.. :) >It would make you sputter and cough.... Your ears didn't fare any better.. :) >I was also at the next-to last U.S. GP at Phoenix. When any of the >F1's would come by, the sound was like an icepick in your ear. Particularly >the Ferrari's which were driven that year by Mansell and Prost. It was >*impossible* to not use earplugs IMO. They were selling them for $1 walking >through the stands just like a coca-cola vendor. >For what its worth, I have been around racecars of *all* kinds, all of >my 55 years and the two most *painful* sounds are funny cars/top fuel >and those G*D DAMN Ferraris............

BUT the real music was the big block V8 Can Am cars of the late 60 and in early 70. The ground shook when they went by you at Road America.....They were something else like I have never seen or heard since then! John

Heh-heh! Small potatoes or large potatoes? Owned a '70 Mach1 myself; had a Doug Nash 5 speed in it mated to a, erm, "warm" 351C. Unfortunately, It argued with a tree coming in the opposite direction :-( I guess it's a Trans-Atlantic thing, but I've never been too bothered about the whole Ford/GM thing; great cars are great cars regardless of the badge they wear ;-) The Camaro was originally a six-pot stocker but wound up as a road-race spec animal with 355cu in of tightly-wound small block and another Doug Nash box. This kiddy had every trick bit of kit Guldstrand and Moog could come up with together with a set of 18" rims and sticky Yokohama ***. Man, how those Porsche drivers hated being blasted by Detroit iron! I also spent about two years as "NOS-man" crewing a Pro-Mod Olds Cutlass which had a 640-something (it kept getting bigger!) cu-in motor and vast quantities of N2O. We set the European record in it at one point with a 6.98; man that was fun. That beast had an /awesome/ idle sound breathing in through a pair of split, highly modified Dominators and out through the 6" collector headers! :-) Best Regards, Rik. <<<Snip>>>

I've seen these cars a couple of times at Zandvoort (1995/1997) in the International Supersport Series. When those cars took of with a rolling start, it's the most amazing thing I've ever heard. The whole grandstand seems to be shaking of that *** thunder! Those exhaust are that big, you can put your arms in! They have also incredible rear tires and huge inlets. If these boys ever comes to a track in your area go and see it!!! Cheers, Harald

> Really? I also spent a lot of time with GP2, it is a great sim, but never > ever got that feeling of the tire-squeal-sound..... I think it just comes > down to personal preferences, at least to me;-) Well a little of both is my guess, because if you dont ever notice that the tyre squealling is giving you that information, your brain will never use it. In a real race car you never hear tyre squealling, at least not in an openwheeler, so to have tyre squealling is in that sense not realistic. I've driven an FFord on the edge and inspite of it's relatively quite engine, I have never heard the tyres squeal, and believe me I've been sideways in a couple of corners :o), loving it of course :o). Give me the benefit of doubt and spend two hours in GP2 knowing that the tyre squeal is high volume when you lost traction, medium volym when you're on the edge and low volume when you're not yet on the edge, and between those states it either increases or decreases. In GP2 you must have tyre squealling during braking and tyre squealling during cornering to make the fastest lap, that's the only reason you hear tyre squealling in GP2, cause if it were realistic, you wouldn't hear it at all, only the screaming V10's :o). GPL is the first time for Papy to simulate locking up the brakes, and the solution they provided were that you have to remember the foot angle. I dont find that realistic at all. It makes it for example very hard to compensate for worn tyres, cold tyres or hot tyres. Then you have to guess the different angles of your foot. When you're braking during elevation shifts you have to memorize all the different angles during that braking. In real life you feel how much you're braking, you're not guessing the foot angle or the foot pressure. /Christer -- [link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).

hi Christer:)

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> GPL is the first time for Papy to simulate locking up the brakes, and the > solution they provided were that you have to remember the foot angle. I dont > find that realistic at all. It makes it for example very hard to compensate for > worn tyres, cold tyres or hot tyres. Then you have to guess the different angles > of your foot. When you're braking during elevation shifts you have to memorize > all the different angles during that braking. In real life you feel how much > you're braking, you're not guessing the foot angle or the foot pressure.

I've noticed you bringing up this point a few thousand times over the last few weeks (ok, not *quite* that many times!) :) I only just got GPL earlier this week, and have spent a few days getting a handle on the new handling of the Lotus (it's so much better than the demo), and now i'm beginning to find that I don't agree with your opinion on this. I am finding that i can drive by feel much better now, paying attention to what the car is doing in response to my input rather than paying any attention to tyre squeal. When i power out of corners, i use *just* enough throttle for the rear to begin coming around but not enough to actually make any tyre noises. When I brake i just brake at a level where the car isn't squirming at all and that's pretty good braking. cornering i just go for feel of under or oversteer, no need to listen to tyre squeal, and i'm not at all far off the pace of the tracks i so far know reasonably well. and this form of driving does promote care and caution and patience and makes my consistancy go *way* up! In a race i've heard people complain about cold tyres... i actually don't really even notice! i just drive the car as it is by feel and run away by like 4 seconds on the first lap of the few online races i've had where i got a clear start to the lead. of course, this is just my view of it:) For some people there is no issue here. for others there is. human beings are weird creatures:) I don't think this helped in any way! but never mind:) Grant.

> some *** ok just did some driving at Monza and decided to see if i really did listen to tyre squeal while driving after all - and i do:) i just do it mostly subconsciously. i get best cornering, braking, etc when i am only *just* hearing the slightest bit of squeal. still trying to figure out good braking methods and turn in techniques, especially for the Lesmos. the car handles much better and is much more drivable than in the demo, but i did do a particularly clean 1:28.61 during testing. except for one minor mistake at the first lesmo i pretty much drove just the sort of really clean realistic lap that was it David Fisher? was bemoaning a lack of amongst fast human drivers:) ok enough spouting. i'll shut up now!

What the hell does this have to do with the Trans-Am sim?

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> > some *** > ok just did some driving at Monza and decided to see if i really > did listen to tyre squeal while driving after all - and i do:) i > just do it mostly subconsciously. i get best cornering, braking, etc > when i am only *just* hearing the slightest bit of squeal. > still trying to figure out good braking methods and turn in techniques, > especially for the Lesmos. the car handles much better and is much more > drivable than in the demo, but i did do a particularly clean 1:28.61 > during testing. except for one minor mistake at the first lesmo i > pretty much drove just the sort of really clean realistic lap that > was it David Fisher? was bemoaning a lack of amongst fast human > drivers:) > ok enough spouting. i'll shut up now!

Hi Grant :o)

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> hi Christer:) > > GPL is the first time for Papy to simulate locking up the brakes, and the > > solution they provided were that you have to remember the foot angle. I dont > > find that realistic at all. It makes it for example very hard to compensate for > > worn tyres, cold tyres or hot tyres. Then you have to guess the different angles > > of your foot. When you're braking during elevation shifts you have to memorize > > all the different angles during that braking. In real life you feel how much > > you're braking, you're not guessing the foot angle or the foot pressure. > I've noticed you bringing up this point a few thousand times over the > last few weeks (ok, not *quite* that many times!) :) I only just > got GPL earlier this week, and have spent a few days getting a handle > on the new handling of the Lotus (it's so much better than the demo), > and now i'm beginning to find that I don't agree with your opinion > on this.

Oh, oh... :o). I've always found your posts inspiring and educational to read and because of that I will give Papys way of simulating g-forces a second thought :o). Out of corner I have no trouble either, except when I'm on my way out of Parabolica and know that I have a good time coming :o). This could just be a setup question, cause I've slowly went into lock ups without the car ever squirming??? I really have no trouble the first lap either, on the contrary I'm amazed how good the brakes work with cold tyres??? I will reevaluate my opinion, I promise :o) /Christer -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).

That's a very fast time, Grant, send it to Jean Claudes fastlap board - [link lost in import: /*t] you're going faster than me :o). /Christer, a slow learner... I hope :o)

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> > some *** > ok just did some driving at Monza and decided to see if i really > did listen to tyre squeal while driving after all - and i do:) i > just do it mostly subconsciously. i get best cornering, braking, etc > when i am only *just* hearing the slightest bit of squeal. > still trying to figure out good braking methods and turn in techniques, > especially for the Lesmos. the car handles much better and is much more > drivable than in the demo, but i did do a particularly clean 1:28.61 > during testing. except for one minor mistake at the first lesmo i > pretty much drove just the sort of really clean realistic lap that > was it David Fisher? was bemoaning a lack of amongst fast human > drivers:) > ok enough spouting. i'll shut up now!

-- [link lost in import: /~w-41236/] (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).

>Heh-heh! Small potatoes or large potatoes? Large, of course! Ouch! Funny thing, that's what happened to mine! Right after I swapped in a top-loader 4 speed and had the body primed and ready for paint :o( iron! I don't necessarily have anything against the cars, it's mainly the "Chevy Rules" mentality here in the states the gets me. 'Course, I'd give my left nut for a '67 Corvette 427 convertible. Then again, don't even get me started about 427 Cobras... As Tim Taylor would say, "Argh argh argh!" Jeez, gives me goose bumpgs just reading about it. Thanks for the tingles! Todd

> Oh, oh... :o). I've always found your posts inspiring and educational to read > and because of that I will give Papys way of simulating g-forces a second > thought :o). thanks :) i reckon exchanging views is a cool thing, i might have ideas that help others drive better, or i might read something that helps me improve too. for me it's just that in the week i've been driving the full GPL my feel of the car has improved to the point where i can genuinely just do what i want with it. drive fast but carefully and consistantly in a race mode, or if i'm trying to keep up with someone like George Sandman i find i can actually start pushing a bit harder - driving on the ragged edge we could say, with the knowledge that if i overcook it slightly anywhere i still have enough spare to just back off to keep under control. this is the first sim where i've found that "edge" so well:) hmm, abbreviate that whole paragraph a bit more: the trick is to really learn the limits of your car control. ok, now i can't quite figure out what the point was to that paragraph! ah, i have that problem too ;) but i am getting better at controlling myself. it may help from doing some online races - if i'm in a good position in a race against other fast or faster drivers, i get really nervous and i'm really fighting to not make mistakes from being all shakey:) I almost swear i can hear the engine pitch vibrating in time to my foot being shakey on the accelerator! that's a good way to learn to keep your car under control under pressure, for sure!:) hmm. maybe it is setup and/or braking technique. i downshift very early and use a lot of engine braking to help slow down when in straight line braking zones. this makes the rear of the car a little squirmey when braking real hard:) i have to be very alert to what my left foot is doing, if i don't react fast enough the back comes around. sometimes i get into the habit of predicting how much braking to use instead - but after a few laps i find that i'm no longer pushing the brake pedal far enough and fall off a turn :( hehe:) yeah i think the car handles better than people make out on cold tyres - the trick is to drive by feel rather than memorising certain speeds and turning patterns for a track. you don't need to:) just keep on working on car control and see what happens. even if you still think there's something lacking, at least you'll improve, still:) the key point is that the sim's the most fun thing to do since sex was invented. cheerio, Grant.

There have been some good points here about Ford vs. Chevy, and I too fall into the "if it's a good enough car I don't care who built it" category. But generally speaking, I'm a Mustang fan, which is handy, since I'll be doing data acquistion for the Autocon Engineering team in next year's Trans Am series. But as far as that sim goes, I'll be driving the #42 AAR Baracuda. Dan Gurney for President!