TomsHardware says Voodoo II Dead!!

Just to throw Brian Hook's $.02 in: I was reading the QuakeIII piece in this month's PCGamer and there was a quote from Brian Hook (ex-3dfx employee) in there I found interesting. It was particularly interesting because of what he says about the Hercules... "The best consumer-level card for GL is the Rendition v2200 in the Hercules Thriller3D, or possible the Intel i740. They are both comprehensive 2D/3D boards, they have a lot of RAM. Now, in the next two months (like..now -j.), we're going to see the advent of Banshee, Savage3D and Riva TNI. Out of those, I think Riva TNT is going to be the best, hands down. I think the Savage3D is going to be a great low cost board." -Brian Hook id Software

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>On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:01:38 -0700, >>> Well. I guess Tom can forget about playing GPL, RB2, LB2 and F15 then. >>That's true...but...we all know that both Sierra and Papyrus have VERY >>poor track records in regards to the decisions they've made with 3D. >Well, Phil, I beg to differ. *Without* D3D, Nascar2 is, by far, one >of the all-time top-selling sims/sports titles. Currently, GPL is

backordered >on lots of sites. EBWorld sold their initial allotment prior to ship. I picked up >my copy from the local EB on release day, and ALL copies were allocated >within 1 hour of store opening. I live in the South. This is Nascar country.

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>That didn't matter in this case, since Papyrus' reputation is well-known >and lots of people here are thrashing thru the Eiffel forest, as I write >this. >Doesn't sound, to me, as if they are making lots of bad decisions at >Papyrus. I wish I had a nickel for every copy of Nascar* they sold, >how about you? >>Sierra will lose many sales of GPL due to the lack of up-to-date D3D >>support and the extended DX6 feature sets. >Why would they want to worsen the graphics in GPL, and place more >work on a D3D *software* graphics solution when the AI is occupying so >much of the CPU already? I, for one, am REAL glad they chose to write >DIRECTLY to the 3DFX and Rendition chips, to unburden the CPU. >I like lots of AI goodness and I wouldn't want the cpu spinning its >tiny wheels in a swamp of D3D .DLLS. >Thanks PAPY! >>It's a shame that Sierra can >>not tap into the huge market that it is failing to address with such a >>great product...and don't tell me they "can't" program it because "D3D is >>too hard" to program for. I'm testing software now that in both cases the >>D3D performance is superior to GLIDE, using D3D/DX6. >Phil, since you're a tester of some upcoming D3D sims, I assume that you

know >that individual software titles can be optimized for *anything*. I could write a >piece of software that would shriek on Voodoo, at say 100fps and get 10fps on D3D, >*or* vice-versa. Can you dig it? It's all a matter of where you put your priorities >in development. >Believe me, I understand the goodness of having an all-encompassing API, like >D3D. The problem is, like anything in life that is general in nature, rather than

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>specialized, the results can be lessened vs. a tailored solution. >>I have a V2 and a >>TNT and test the software in as many combinations of API's and chipsets >>as possible. >>I'm convinced that for now, owning a 12 meg V2 card such in a PCI slot, >>and a 16 meg TNT AGP_2 card, is the way to go. You're covered for D3D and >>GLIDE. >>-Surfer >I agree *totally*, but to imply that somehow Glide (direct to metal) API is >somehow inferior to a software based, general purpose API, like D3D, is a >bit misleading, dontcha think? What if tomorrow, 3DFX announced a <$200 >card that was, say, 5X the speed of a VoodooII? Would you still tout >the value of D3D vs. Glide? I bet they are working on one. How much you >want to bet? >-- >// rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com //

D3D was poor soultion in the past. It IS MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to program under DX6 and supports MANY advanced features. Times change. Don't assume because it sucked in the past, it will in the future. Dave

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>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:18:40 -0400, >>Just to throw Brian Hook's $.02 in: >>I was reading the QuakeIII piece in this month's PCGamer and there was a >>quote from Brian Hook (ex-3dfx employee) in there I found interesting. It >>was particularly interesting because of what he says about the Hercules... >>"The best consumer-level card for GL is the Rendition v2200 in the

Hercules >>Thriller3D, or possible the Intel i740. They are both comprehensive 2D/3D >>boards, they have a lot of RAM. Now, in the next two months >>(like..now -j.), we're going to see the advent of Banshee, Savage3D and Riva >>TNI. Out of those, I think Riva TNT is going to be the best, hands down. I

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>>think the Savage3D is going to be a great low cost board." >>-Brian Hook >>id Software >Hey Jeffrey, ask Brian one question: > "Which combat sims or racing simulators now use or > plan to use OpenGL?" >Let us know what he says. >Thanks for your time. >>>On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:01:38 -0700, >>>>> Well. I guess Tom can forget about playing GPL, RB2, LB2 and F15 then. >>>>That's true...but...we all know that both Sierra and Papyrus have VERY >>>>poor track records in regards to the decisions they've made with 3D. >>>Well, Phil, I beg to differ. *Without* D3D, Nascar2 is, by far, one >>>of the all-time top-selling sims/sports titles. Currently, GPL is >>backordered >>>on lots of sites. EBWorld sold their initial allotment prior to ship. I >>picked up >>>my copy from the local EB on release day, and ALL copies were allocated >>>within 1 hour of store opening. I live in the South. This is Nascar >>country. >>>That didn't matter in this case, since Papyrus' reputation is well-known >>>and lots of people here are thrashing thru the Eiffel forest, as I write >>>this. >>>Doesn't sound, to me, as if they are making lots of bad decisions at >>>Papyrus. I wish I had a nickel for every copy of Nascar* they sold, >>>how about you? >>>>Sierra will lose many sales of GPL due to the lack of up-to-date D3D >>>>support and the extended DX6 feature sets. >>>Why would they want to worsen the graphics in GPL, and place more >>>work on a D3D *software* graphics solution when the AI is occupying so >>>much of the CPU already? I, for one, am REAL glad they chose to write >>>DIRECTLY to the 3DFX and Rendition chips, to unburden the CPU. >>>I like lots of AI goodness and I wouldn't want the cpu spinning its >>>tiny wheels in a swamp of D3D .DLLS. >>>Thanks PAPY! >>>>It's a shame that Sierra can >>>>not tap into the huge market that it is failing to address with such a >>>>great product...and don't tell me they "can't" program it because "D3D

is >>>>too hard" to program for. I'm testing software now that in both cases the

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>>>>D3D performance is superior to GLIDE, using D3D/DX6. >>>Phil, since you're a tester of some upcoming D3D sims, I assume that you >>know >>>that individual software titles can be optimized for *anything*. I could >>write a >>>piece of software that would shriek on Voodoo, at say 100fps and get

10fps

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>>on D3D, >>>*or* vice-versa. Can you dig it? It's all a matter of where you put your >>priorities >>>in development. >>>Believe me, I understand the goodness of having an all-encompassing API, >>like >>>D3D. The problem is, like anything in life that is general in nature, >>rather than >>>specialized, the results can be lessened vs. a tailored solution. >>>>I have a V2 and a >>>>TNT and test the software in as many combinations of API's and chipsets >>>>as possible. >>>>I'm convinced that for now, owning a 12 meg V2 card such in a PCI slot, >>>>and a 16 meg TNT AGP_2 card, is the way to go. You're covered for D3D

and >>>>GLIDE. >>>>-Surfer >>>I agree *totally*, but to imply that somehow Glide (direct to metal) API is

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>>>somehow inferior to a software based, general purpose API, like D3D, is a >>>bit misleading, dontcha think? What if tomorrow, 3DFX announced a <$200 >>>card that was, say, 5X the speed of a VoodooII? Would you still tout >>>the value of D3D vs. Glide? I bet they are working on one. How much you >>>want to bet? >-- >// rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com //

He was asking about OpenGL...and the answer is none. (I think, just maybe, it was a rhetorical question.)

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>D3D was poor soultion in the past. It IS MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to program >under DX6 and supports MANY advanced features. Times change. Don't assume >because it sucked in the past, it will in the future. >Dave >>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:18:40 -0400, >>>Just to throw Brian Hook's $.02 in: >>>I was reading the QuakeIII piece in this month's PCGamer and there was a >>>quote from Brian Hook (ex-3dfx employee) in there I found interesting.

It >>>was particularly interesting because of what he says about the Hercules... >>>"The best consumer-level card for GL is the Rendition v2200 in the >Hercules >>>Thriller3D, or possible the Intel i740. They are both comprehensive 2D/3D

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>>>boards, they have a lot of RAM. Now, in the next two months >>>(like..now -j.), we're going to see the advent of Banshee, Savage3D and >Riva >>>TNI. Out of those, I think Riva TNT is going to be the best, hands down. >I >>>think the Savage3D is going to be a great low cost board." >>>-Brian Hook >>>id Software >>Hey Jeffrey, ask Brian one question: >> "Which combat sims or racing simulators now use or >> plan to use OpenGL?" >>Let us know what he says. >>Thanks for your time. >>>>On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:01:38 -0700, >>>>>> Well. I guess Tom can forget about playing GPL, RB2, LB2 and F15

then.

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>>>>>That's true...but...we all know that both Sierra and Papyrus have VERY >>>>>poor track records in regards to the decisions they've made with 3D. >>>>Well, Phil, I beg to differ. *Without* D3D, Nascar2 is, by far, one >>>>of the all-time top-selling sims/sports titles. Currently, GPL is >>>backordered >>>>on lots of sites. EBWorld sold their initial allotment prior to ship. I >>>picked up >>>>my copy from the local EB on release day, and ALL copies were allocated >>>>within 1 hour of store opening. I live in the South. This is Nascar >>>country. >>>>That didn't matter in this case, since Papyrus' reputation is well-known >>>>and lots of people here are thrashing thru the Eiffel forest, as I write >>>>this. >>>>Doesn't sound, to me, as if they are making lots of bad decisions at >>>>Papyrus. I wish I had a nickel for every copy of Nascar* they sold, >>>>how about you? >>>>>Sierra will lose many sales of GPL due to the lack of up-to-date D3D >>>>>support and the extended DX6 feature sets. >>>>Why would they want to worsen the graphics in GPL, and place more >>>>work on a D3D *software* graphics solution when the AI is occupying so >>>>much of the CPU already? I, for one, am REAL glad they chose to write >>>>DIRECTLY to the 3DFX and Rendition chips, to unburden the CPU. >>>>I like lots of AI goodness and I wouldn't want the cpu spinning its >>>>tiny wheels in a swamp of D3D .DLLS. >>>>Thanks PAPY! >>>>>It's a shame that Sierra can >>>>>not tap into the huge market that it is failing to address with such a >>>>>great product...and don't tell me they "can't" program it because "D3D >is >>>>>too hard" to program for. I'm testing software now that in both cases >the >>>>>D3D performance is superior to GLIDE, using D3D/DX6. >>>>Phil, since you're a tester of some upcoming D3D sims, I assume that you >>>know >>>>that individual software titles can be optimized for *anything*. I could >>>write a >>>>piece of software that would shriek on Voodoo, at say 100fps and get >10fps >>>on D3D, >>>>*or* vice-versa. Can you dig it? It's all a matter of where you put your >>>priorities >>>>in development. >>>>Believe me, I understand the goodness of having an all-encompassing API, >>>like >>>>D3D. The problem is, like anything in life that is general in nature, >>>rather than >>>>specialized, the results can be lessened vs. a tailored solution. >>>>>I have a V2 and a >>>>>TNT and test the software in as many combinations of API's and chipsets >>>>>as possible. >>>>>I'm convinced that for now, owning a 12 meg V2 card such in a PCI slot, >>>>>and a 16 meg TNT AGP_2 card, is the way to go. You're covered for D3D >and >>>>>GLIDE. >>>>>-Surfer >>>>I agree *totally*, but to imply that somehow Glide (direct to metal) API >is >>>>somehow inferior to a software based, general purpose API, like D3D, is

a

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>>>>bit misleading, dontcha think? What if tomorrow, 3DFX announced a <$200 >>>>card that was, say, 5X the speed of a VoodooII? Would you still tout >>>>the value of D3D vs. Glide? I bet they are working on one. How much you >>>>want to bet? >>-- >>// rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com //

says... First, nice reply and you make some very good points. Let me say that I was, and still am, a big fan of GLIDE. GLIDE done well, running on V2 hardware flat out rocks. No question. I guess I put myself into a software developers CEO shoes, and want to see as many graphics options made available within the ROI spectrum. In a perfect world, I'd insist my programmers did D3D, GLIDE and possibly OpenGL versions. But for the next 12 months, D3D and GLIDE at the minimum. I'd consider NOT doing software versions if it would cripple the sim/graphics engine, BTW. Either way, things are looking prettier and faster than every...we all win in the end. -Surfer -- Phil "Surfer" Worthen 510th TFW_VMFA-333 Tres Equis ----------------------------- "If you're not having fun...you're doing something wrong"

Hey Rrevved dont confuse a good rant with facts....hehehe. Buy the Hardware for the Software, knuckleheads, not the other way around....sheesh. PAPA DOC

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>Hey Jeffrey, ask Brian one question: > "Which combat sims or racing simulators now use or > plan to use OpenGL?" >Let us know what he says. >Thanks for your time.

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Pink Flamingo Pilot... http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

% Just to throw Brian Hook's $.02 in: % I was reading the QuakeIII piece in this month's PCGamer and there was a % quote from Brian Hook (ex-3dfx employee) in there I found interesting. It % was particularly interesting because of what he says about the Hercules... % "The best consumer-level card for GL is the Rendition v2200 in the Hercules % Thriller3D, or possible the Intel i740. They are both comprehensive 2D/3D % boards, they have a lot of RAM. Now, in the next two months % (like..now -j.), we're going to see the advent of Banshee, Savage3D and Riva % TNI. Out of those, I think Riva TNT is going to be the best, hands down. I % think the Savage3D is going to be a great low cost board." I would stay away from the Intel i740 until Intel decides to not "cripple" it. And from what I have read the TNT will certainly begin to bring the 3DFX down more than a notch or two (if it gets the support it needs from the industry). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% D3D was poor soultion in the past. It IS MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to program % under DX6 and supports MANY advanced features. Times change. Don't assume % because it sucked in the past, it will in the future. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So you are admitting that it still sucks? <G> -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>% D3D was poor soultion in the past. It IS MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to program >% under DX6 and supports MANY advanced features. Times change. Don't assume >% because it sucked in the past, it will in the future. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >So you are admitting that it still sucks? <G> Michael for the life of me I think I wrote the sentence right. READ IT AGAIN.... <G> David

I replied to the wrong level of post, I was answering a question about how hard D3D is to program with DX. Sorry. Dave >He was asking about OpenGL...and the answer is none. (I think, just maybe, >it was a rhetorical question.) >>D3D was poor soultion in the past. It IS MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to program

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>>under DX6 and supports MANY advanced features. Times change. Don't assume >>because it sucked in the past, it will in the future. >>Dave >>>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:18:40 -0400, >>>>Just to throw Brian Hook's $.02 in: >>>>I was reading the QuakeIII piece in this month's PCGamer and there was a >>>>quote from Brian Hook (ex-3dfx employee) in there I found interesting. >It >>>>was particularly interesting because of what he says about the >Hercules... >>>>"The best consumer-level card for GL is the Rendition v2200 in the >>Hercules >>>>Thriller3D, or possible the Intel i740. They are both comprehensive >2D/3D >>>>boards, they have a lot of RAM. Now, in the next two months >>>>(like..now -j.), we're going to see the advent of Banshee, Savage3D and >>Riva >>>>TNI. Out of those, I think Riva TNT is going to be the best, hands

down.

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>>I >>>>think the Savage3D is going to be a great low cost board." >>>>-Brian Hook >>>>id Software >>>Hey Jeffrey, ask Brian one question: >>> "Which combat sims or racing simulators now use or >>> plan to use OpenGL?" >>>Let us know what he says. >>>Thanks for your time. >>>>>On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:01:38 -0700, >>>>>>> Well. I guess Tom can forget about playing GPL, RB2, LB2 and F15 >then. >>>>>>That's true...but...we all know that both Sierra and Papyrus have VERY >>>>>>poor track records in regards to the decisions they've made with 3D. >>>>>Well, Phil, I beg to differ. *Without* D3D, Nascar2 is, by far, one >>>>>of the all-time top-selling sims/sports titles. Currently, GPL is >>>>backordered >>>>>on lots of sites. EBWorld sold their initial allotment prior to ship. I >>>>picked up >>>>>my copy from the local EB on release day, and ALL copies were allocated >>>>>within 1 hour of store opening. I live in the South. This is Nascar >>>>country. >>>>>That didn't matter in this case, since Papyrus' reputation is

well-known >>>>>and lots of people here are thrashing thru the Eiffel forest, as I write

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>>>>>this. >>>>>Doesn't sound, to me, as if they are making lots of bad decisions at >>>>>Papyrus. I wish I had a nickel for every copy of Nascar* they sold, >>>>>how about you? >>>>>>Sierra will lose many sales of GPL due to the lack of up-to-date D3D >>>>>>support and the extended DX6 feature sets. >>>>>Why would they want to worsen the graphics in GPL, and place more >>>>>work on a D3D *software* graphics solution when the AI is occupying so >>>>>much of the CPU already? I, for one, am REAL glad they chose to write >>>>>DIRECTLY to the 3DFX and Rendition chips, to unburden the CPU. >>>>>I like lots of AI goodness and I wouldn't want the cpu spinning its >>>>>tiny wheels in a swamp of D3D .DLLS. >>>>>Thanks PAPY! >>>>>>It's a shame that Sierra can >>>>>>not tap into the huge market that it is failing to address with such a >>>>>>great product...and don't tell me they "can't" program it because "D3D >>is >>>>>>too hard" to program for. I'm testing software now that in both cases >>the >>>>>>D3D performance is superior to GLIDE, using D3D/DX6. >>>>>Phil, since you're a tester of some upcoming D3D sims, I assume that

you >>>>know >>>>>that individual software titles can be optimized for *anything*. I could >>>>write a >>>>>piece of software that would shriek on Voodoo, at say 100fps and get >>10fps >>>>on D3D, >>>>>*or* vice-versa. Can you dig it? It's all a matter of where you put your >>>>priorities >>>>>in development. >>>>>Believe me, I understand the goodness of having an all-encompassing API,

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>>>>like >>>>>D3D. The problem is, like anything in life that is general in nature, >>>>rather than >>>>>specialized, the results can be lessened vs. a tailored solution. >>>>>>I have a V2 and a >>>>>>TNT and test the software in as many combinations of API's and

chipsets >>>>>>as possible. >>>>>>I'm convinced that for now, owning a 12 meg V2 card such in a PCI slot,

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>>>>>>and a 16 meg TNT AGP_2 card, is the way to go. You're covered for D3D >>and >>>>>>GLIDE. >>>>>>-Surfer >>>>>I agree *totally*, but to imply that somehow Glide (direct to metal)

API >>is >>>>>somehow inferior to a software based, general purpose API, like D3D, is >a >>>>>bit misleading, dontcha think? What if tomorrow, 3DFX announced a <$200 >>>>>card that was, say, 5X the speed of a VoodooII? Would you still tout >>>>>the value of D3D vs. Glide? I bet they are working on one. How much you >>>>>want to bet? >>>-- >>>// rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com //

Aaah!, another one of those priceless pieces of advise. This gem is a fine example of why I regularly and meticulously finecomb this newsgroup. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We are not worthy. Yours truly, knucklehead

We all get what we came for....because Im forever cruising the newsgroups looking for new ways of using Caps... PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G> http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

That advice only makes sense for older games. It makes no sense at all for just about everything coming out in the next few months and beyond. Glide only is history and 3DFX currently has no solution other than dropping V2 prices and promoting SLI. I think they should optimize the V2 with faster memory and release 1024X768 drivers for single V2's. -Terry says...

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> Hey Rrevved dont confuse a good rant with facts....hehehe. > Buy the Hardware for the Software, knuckleheads, not the other way > around....sheesh. > PAPA DOC > >Hey Jeffrey, ask Brian one question: > > "Which combat sims or racing simulators now use or > > plan to use OpenGL?" > >Let us know what he says. > >Thanks for your time. > Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand > Pink Flamingo Pilot... > http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

actually, no. i don't agree completely. while the new DirectX cards are pretty to look at, and have come a _long_ way in performance against the Glide using Voodoo family, they still are _not_ as fast. I have the STB v4400 card, as well as a 12mb Creative Labs voodoo 2 card. while the STB does allow for much higher resolutions using the single card, has the agp ability going for it, etc, the voodoo 2 still has the ability to take in a full screen/room/area of action and display it at full speed. the TNT card chokes. my processor is a 333 that's been running at 400mhz from day 1, 64mb lgs PC100 sdram. i do stay current on all drivers (currently waiting on the posting of 3Dfx's new directX driver set.... dammit. d: ), making older drivers a non-issue. the TNT/directX cards, while being better than they used to be, are now screenshot champions. if you want to play the game, and be immersed in the action, 3Dfx is still the one. Glide isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Long Live the King. -jch

First, I'd be very careful about accepting any of "Tom's" summary/subjective remarks as gospel: (A) His priorities are probably not the same as yours and certainly aren't the same as mine (ie, I don't give a rat's a** about Quake, Quake2, Quake N...) (B) I've found on a few occasions that his numbers don't match his text/hyperbole. He has his own axe(s) to grind. I might have thought that, but lo and behold, I just bought a brand new game called...GPL. Yyou might have read a tad about it in one of the two ng's you posted to. I'd be really miffed if I couldn't play it due to following Tom's advice. Sure, I expect the sole-3dfx to wane. But I still see demos and new games that support only it. Or perform better with it. So I won't be without a 3dfx anytime soon. Maybe it is to the point where I'll get a TNT to accompany my aged Voodoo1, rather than a Banshee or Voodoo2 to replace it. Then again, if the V2 firesale continues... Competition is good for us all. Finally, 3dfx has it in spades. But again, it doesn't mean it is "Dead".

> i do stay current on all drivers (currently > waiting on the posting of 3Dfx's new directX driver set.... dammit. d: ), > making older drivers a non-issue. 3dfx have just released their DX6 beta drivers, go check them out. http://www.3dfx.com/docs/v2_sli_drivers/v2_sli_drivers.html Stu

This very much bears repeating. While Tom has done a pretty good job with his sight, please remember that it's just another personal web page. -dobe-

Yup....this goes as well for Sharky's, Anand, Voodoo Extreme and the others. Really seems as if they show what they want to show. PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Pink Flamingo Pilot... http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

dunno if i completely agree with this.... is it still "another personal web page" when every page has adverti***ts........and the person who runs the site gets hot off the press...not yet released hardware *for free* to test for them so they can evaluate and post on this "personal web page"? the Savage3D is in tom's doghouse. yes their product may be inferior to others out there (in its current state). he even seemed downright hostile when they didnt answer his questions or send him updated drivers etc..... hypothetically.....lets turn the tables......some company sends him updates of graphic boards on a regular basis.....answers his questions....some of them even fly out there to help him out. if this card does well and he praises them on his site......is it because it is a superior product......or have other things influenced his decision? i consider his site as a source for information to make an informed buying decision. i may or may not agree with his recommendations. i have walked into computer shops in town here and they ask me if i have read tom's site. they only see what he recommends.......and then they try to sway me in that direction. they dont read the site. (i had one salesperson trying to discourage me from buying a celeron 266 a couple of months ago......the first thing he said was "did you see what tom said"......he wanted me to buy a PII.....i said "yes i did read the site.......that is why i am buying a celeron"). a couple of months ago i would consider tom's site as a "personal web page". not anymore.....when one person has the power to sway a large portion of hardware buyers in one direction or another....and when recommendations may (or may not) be influenced by what and how much developers give them......i cant call it personal anymore. -zAmboni > This very much bears repeating. While Tom has done a pretty good >job with his sight, please remember that it's just another personal >web page. > -dobe-

This was exactly what I was trying to say without disparaging Tom too much and starting a big broohaha. Everyone would be best served by not taking his word as gospel and just using his page as another source of input from which to make informed decisions. He's just a guy with an opinion. An opinon which I am less and less apt to trust the bigger his site becomes. -dobe-