GPL - beta tester skills

I agree with you completely regarding all of your points (how's that for a non-flame!!). I thought Alison's driving was closest to mine in style (although her skill level is double mine), mostly because she seemed to be the only one driving with the idea that the car would need to last more than two laps. I played the Kyalami clip first (the one with the flat-out shifting as you call it) and my only thought was "Oh my God...if you have to drive like that to get a good lap time, maybe this isn't such a great sim. after all." Fortunately, there is a good mix throughout the 11 sessions. Marc.

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>Watching the replays of the GPL beta testers, and looking at Allison >Hine's excellent site, I found it a bit amusing that their (the beta >testers) comments were, indeed, very good. They all had impressive >understanding and knowledge of race car dynamics! >However, I find their driving manners a bit arcadish for people who know >so much - comparing them to those of other people who race in real life. >Perhaps the replays were a bit misleading, and from earlier versions of >the sim.. >Nearly all the replays included: >- Flat out shifting >- Shifting while in a turn , or at an extreme yaw angle(not recommended >if it was in real life...) >- Using more than the track surface on purpose >- Keeping the car at very high revs all the time >The thought just occured to me; If my dad (who saw these guys in action, >and has been a racer for quite some time) saw the replays, he would be a >bit disappointed; the sim looks fantastic, or IS, fantastic, and my >point is; instead of providing us with "hotlaps", the replays should >have been of more "realistic" type driving. As you can guess, I felt >that the replays were a bit off, although I was amazed at the precison >and speed of all of them. >(My hat is off to all of you guys, great driving!) >IMO, Allisons lap of Silverstone was most resemblant to a "real" lap. >I hope I get some proper views on this, please do not flame - I respect >and give my thanks to all of the beta testers! >See you online:)) >Best, >Matthew

Watching the replays of the GPL beta testers, and looking at Allison Hine's excellent site, I found it a bit amusing that their (the beta testers) comments were, indeed, very good. They all had impressive understanding and knowledge of race car dynamics! However, I find their driving manners a bit arcadish for people who know so much - comparing them to those of other people who race in real life. Perhaps the replays were a bit misleading, and from earlier versions of the sim.. Nearly all the replays included: - Flat out shifting - Shifting while in a turn , or at an extreme yaw angle(not recommended if it was in real life...) - Using more than the track surface on purpose - Keeping the car at very high revs all the time The thought just occured to me; If my dad (who saw these guys in action, and has been a racer for quite some time) saw the replays, he would be a bit disappointed; the sim looks fantastic, or IS, fantastic, and my point is; instead of providing us with "hotlaps", the replays should have been of more "realistic" type driving. As you can guess, I felt that the replays were a bit off, although I was amazed at the precison and speed of all of them. (My hat is off to all of you guys, great driving!) IMO, Allisons lap of Silverstone was most resemblant to a "real" lap. I hope I get some proper views on this, please do not flame - I respect and give my thanks to all of the beta testers! See you online:)) Best, Matthew

I wrote a very, very, similiar post last week "GPL Handling". I also agree with your comments about the tester's skill and knowledge. They are full of talent both on the track and off. The one's that know me "online" (John W., John O'K, Alison), I hope they don't think I'm criticizing them in any way. Not at all. Just very curious about something that I'm about to spend a lot of hours of my life with. IMO, the AI looks very close to what I've seen in film of the real cars (what do you think Matthew?), but so far, any replay I've seen (not just tester's) looks very different from the smoothness and control exhibited by that AI. They still are loose at times, which is to be expected considering the car's that are modeled, but it's a controlled looseness. Watch the AI, and then watch a replay. Both from in cab, and in chase view. Use the drive line as a reference to see the smoothness of both. I was hoping that this game would finally reward smooth, controlled, realistic driving instead of the wild driving needed to be fast in most sims but I don't see it. At least not yet. I hope I do. In my post, I questioned whether it was even possible to drive the same way as the AI, and still match the AI times. Bandini did a 3:20.XX at Spa on my computer, and yet any replay close to that time that I've seen is very wild in comparison. Same situation with the other tracks. David G Fisher DmndDave >Watching the replays of the GPL beta testers, and looking at Allison >Hine's excellent site, I found it a bit amusing that their (the beta >testers) comments were, indeed, very good. They all had impressive >understanding and knowledge of race car dynamics! >However, I find their driving manners a bit arcadish for people who know >so much - comparing them to those of other people who race in real life.............

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> I wrote a very, very, similiar post last week "GPL Handling". I also > agree > with your comments about the tester's skill and knowledge. They are > full of > talent both on the track and off. The one's that know me "online" > (John W., > John O'K, Alison), I hope they don't think I'm criticizing them in any > way. > Not at all. Just very curious about something that I'm about to spend > a lot > of hours of my life with. > IMO, the AI looks very close to what I've seen in film of the real > cars > (what do you think Matthew?), but so far, any replay I've seen (not > just > tester's) looks very different from the smoothness and control > exhibited by > that AI. <snip>

I agree on that, but I also know that it is possible to go smoothly, or a bit more at least..The fact is also, like in real life, a lap feels so much wilder from the inside than the outside. I did a 1.29.0 lap at Monaco yesterday, and I felt as if I was going to explode all the way around:) When I looked at it, yes I had one truly wild moment, but otherwise, it looks quite normal. Anyway,( from what I've told..hehehe), "powershifting" is penalized, your engine will expire. I still haven't blown one......:)) I am quite certain that the guys who learn to go smoothly at 95% will beat the guys who hang out at 110%! Matthew

Matt, I to have been racing for several years (16). I hadn't really thought about the realism to the degree that you had. It is a game after all. Although I'd have to agree with your comments, however it is a diffucult judgement to make not ever having driven one of these old cars. They have very different characteristics than a modern open wheel car. I do believe that the simulation lets you get away with things that you could never do in a real car (heavy crashes for one) but more importantly, for me, I'm amazed at what it does allow me to do that looks extremely realistic. I whole heartedly agree with your comments about Alisons lap. Were it reality, her driving style would hold up very nicely. From what I've read on her site she has considerable experience in real race cars. It will be very interesting to see if the fastest laps in GPL will require the driver to do the "more realistic" things in the***pit. At any rate, I love the game and can drive it in a way that makes it feel realistic to me. I think they've raised the bar quite a bit and are very close to the type of realism you mentioned. Rich

possible to go smoothly, or I watch the cars in replay from the chase view and that's where you can see the weaving. I definitely agree about the 95%/110%. Smooth, controlled, AND NO CRASHES, :-) at 95% is my goal. I'm hoping I can prove myself wrong eventually about the ability or inability to be able to drive like the AI in GPL. If anyone has a 3:20 at Spa that looks like an AI driver did it, send it to me. David G Fisher DmndDave

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> Matt, > I to have been racing for several years (16). I hadn't really thought > about > the realism to the degree that you had. It is a game after all. > Although I'd > have to agree with your comments, however it is a diffucult judgement > to > make not ever having driven one of these old cars.

The sim does remind me very much of driving a Formula Ford 1600 (euro-spec, threaded tires) ...although there is quite more grunt:) I am with you 100% here. Agree again, it will be very interesting to see what driving GPL will do for my real life racingskills, a mate of mine (Edwin of "the paddock" [link lost in import] and I drove an endurance series a few years back, and I would be lying if I said N2 didn't create a lot of discussion; we found easier ways to understand our separate needs for setting up the car to suit our driving styles. And we got to race each other! I have never seen as good a sim as GPL, it will probably rob me of all my spare time, and make my dad mad because I spend too little time at the workshop! I'll do my best to make sure it sells over here:)) Cheers, Matt

I agree with most of this. I think in the novice mode you can get away with harder shifting and higher revs than in the Pro or GP race. Also in a real car you have to shift an H pattern and that can lead to more missed shifts. I watched my lap in replay and it looked like I was oversteering in some turns when I thought I was more neutral or even a little had push. I am trying out different AI and driver setting so that I can drive the way I think I should and race the AI and not worry about how fast I am compared to the fastest laps. Lutrell, Dsr#74 :-) http://www2.scca.com/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/photogal/dsr-74.jpg

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>Watching the replays of the GPL beta testers, and looking at Allison >Hine's excellent site, I found it a bit amusing that their (the beta >testers) comments were, indeed, very good. T >Perhaps the replays were a bit misleading, and from earlier versions of >the sim.. >Nearly all the replays included: >- Flat out shifting >- Shifting while in a turn , or at an extreme yaw angle(not recommended >if it was in real life...) >- Using more than the track surface on purpose >- Keeping the car at very high revs all the time >Best, >Matthew

I was just watching the replays again a few minutes ago. While watching them I was thinking.....man, I bet Papyrus could make an awesome rally game. Just take a look at the way Dave is driving at Zandvoort. Eric

I totally agree with your post as several others seem to do. I've been a bit worried since I heard way back that some of the developers at Papyrus use a joystick for steering and pedals for gas and brake. I think it would be hard to be smooth with a joystick. If so the risk is that the modelling of the car physics is towards a joystick steering device instead of a wheel??? I also agree Alison's lap being the most beautiful. I just saw Dave Mansell's 1:28.1 at Monza and it was very smooth, so hopefully the model caters for smooth driving :o). /Christer -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

I went off road at Zandvort and rode the hills and thought this would make a great off road game. Maybe SODA 2? Lutrell, Dsr#74 :-) http://www2.scca.com/amateur/club_racing/runoffs/photogal/dsr-74.jpg >I was just watching the replays again a few minutes ago. While watching >them I was thinking.....man, I bet Papyrus could make an awesome rally >game. Just take a look at the way Dave is driving at Zandvoort.

>I totally agree with your post as several others seem to do. I've been a bit >worried since I heard way back that some of the developers at Papyrus use a >joystick for steering and pedals for gas and brake. I think it would be hard to >be smooth with a joystick. If so the risk is that the modelling of the car >physics is towards a joystick steering device instead of a wheel??? FWIW, I've always used a joystick for GPL. I think one of my replays is included with the game and I don't believe it features abuse of the engine or track, but it depends which replay is there - I had quite a few a while ago :) Mike.

Well, being one of the beta testers I felt I should reply to this posting! ;-) Thanks! Ack!!! I don't know if I like that comment. I'm also not sure if Alison has any replays of me driving so I'm not sure which ones you looked at. They may have been misleading even if you watched current versions. A replay looses a little bit of quality. I can guarantee you I do not do flat out shifting. If you do so the engine will be sure to blow in a short amount of time. The only time that I would ever consider flat out shifting might be on a Qualifying lap and I would only do that for one lap. The truth is that I don't even do that though for fear of popping the motor before the lap is finished. Over time I have been able to develop my shifts such that the lifting of the gas and the shift are so quick that it appears that it is a flat out shift. Hrmm, well I usually do not shift while in a turn but there are some long corners where you have to shift because of gearing considerations. For example at Monza's Parabolica you need to shift while exiting the corner. I think if you watch real life racing at Monza you will find others shifting at the exit of this corner also. When shifting while cornering you must do a few things all in a fraction of a second. First you must slightly counter steer when lifting off the gas to shift. The counter-steer is to catch the lift throttle oversteer. When engaging the new gear and getting back on the gas you must be very gentle as to not suddenly brake the rear tires loose do to too low revs (engine braking) or too high revs (spining tires). The whole action of the shift needs to be smooth so that you do not upset a car on the edge. The one thing I can say is that while watching a replay from an external view the cars look like they have a larger yaw angle than what it feels like when in the***pit. I'm not sure what replay you are talking about here or what part of the track but I always keep my tires on the track. The only time tires will slip off is usally at the exit of the corrner and it was not done on purpose. If you look at a real life track you will usually see dirt ruts at the exit of corners. The reason for those dirt ruts is people running wide out of the corner. I don't know how many times I have run two tires off at the exit of a corner when racing in real life! Anyway to make a long story short in GPL I NEVER go off course on purpose! The cars are too delicate to go off course without upsetting them. Hrmm, first most of the power in a F1 car (even a 1967 or 68 one) is in the high revs. I try to keep my car in the power band at all times. Now if you mean at the very top edge where the redline is the only time I keep it there is usally when I'm in 5th gear at the end of a long straight. Even if I geared my 5th gear real short and ran on the rev limiter the rev limiter is there for a purpose. A car should be able to run on the rev-limeter for awhile (not forever). The rev-limeter prevents the engine from going to high where it would be damaged. Well, I have raced in karts and cars in real life, set a lap record at Sears Point in my class, won two regional championships, raced in 24 hour Endurance semi-pro race. I would say my real life skill and experiences are quite extensive. Now with that all said my replays (again I'm not sure which ones you are talking about) follow real life lines and techniques as much as possible. Of course there may be some small differences due to how the sim reacts to you. For example if you are used to driving a Sedan while racing and all of a sudden you hoped into a Formula 1 car you are not going to drive it the same. You will use much of the same techniques with some adjustments for the differences in the car. The same goes for GPL and real life racing. I use many of the same techniques when I race in GPL as I would use in real life. Becasue GPL is a sim though there will be some differences between real life and GPL and you naturally adjust your driving style to match what works best for the sim. Thanks!!!! Thanks! Well that is my view. I would be interested to hear your reply to my answers. Thanks, John [link lost in import]

Isn't there a rev limiter on the engine? My system started acting up this evening -- sporadic disk access and subsequent 2 fps spurts (Yes, I know how to fix it. Thanks.) -- causing me much angst. Anyway, I spun out during one of these acid flashbacks, and finally gave up and spent the remainder of the evening trying to blow up the engine. After more than a half hour doing holeshots and slipping the clutch, my starts are almost respectable, but the engine still had not blown. If you're blowing the engine regularly, I suspect it may be more due to "hopeful" downshifts coming into corners. I say this only because I catch myself clicking that downshift button quicker than I know can be good when I overshoot my braking points. Anyway, I couldn't get the Lotus over 9854 rpm with the clutch out, and as I said, did this with much malice at first, and continued the abuse for the better part of an hour. Michael. > It's a 1:20 at Kyalami. You don't abuse the track but I can't see the > engine lasting a full race with the over-revving on the upshifts ;-)

Oh yeah. :) Forgot I put the damage model on None when I started dorking around with the setup again. Beats heck out of restarting with cold tires after every off. Couldn't even blow up the engine right when I wanted to... talk about frustrating. I used to get about four laps on the engine at the Ring before the collective jumps and early downshifts got it. This was on realistic damage. Michael. > >Isn't there a rev limiter on the engine? > It can't protect against revving in neutral though. Powershifting up > through the box will quickly damage the engine with realistic damage - most > noticable in the Lotus.