GPL Observation/Question on CPU cache, Voodoo2 and Thriller 3d frame rates

All, I am running a CeleronA overclocked to 450 mhz and have both an 8 meg Thriller 3d card and an SLI configuration of Monster3d2 cards. I am running at 800x600 with the detail slider at 3/4 detail and all graphic options on. I am running a full field of 19 AI. The interesting thing is that the Thriller 3-d outperforms the SLI voodoos! The thriller gives me 36 fps almost all of the time while the voodoo2's can only crank out 30 most of the time and vary a great deal between the 20's and 36. It appears that the extra workload the cpu has to do draw stuff for the voodoos (as noted somewhere in the documentatiion, I think) kills it and appears to thrash the 128k secondary cache. I do have the triple buffering turned off, actually every one of the voodoo2 options is turned off. QUESTION: Is anyone seeing better frame rates with a voodoo2 with a Pentium II cpu that has the 256k secondary cache? If so it would be interesting to know where the trade-off point is in CPU speed. By the way at 1024x768 the dual voodoos pull ahead. but the frame rate is not fast enough to race. I'd rather use the 800x600 with full detail. Thanks. Jeff Haas

Thanks for letting us know this!! You have confirmed that once again Papyrus' support for non-Rendition chips is abysmal. If you can't get consistent high frame rates on your set-up, then the rest of us can forget it....unless we are willing to buy a special video card just for GPL, since the rest of industry ignores the Rendition chipset. Marc.

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>All, >I am running a CeleronA overclocked to 450 mhz and have both an 8 meg >Thriller 3d card and an SLI configuration of Monster3d2 cards. I am >running at 800x600 with the detail slider at 3/4 detail and all >graphic options on. I am running a full field of 19 AI. >The interesting thing is that the Thriller 3-d outperforms the SLI >voodoos! The thriller gives me 36 fps almost all of the time while >the voodoo2's can only crank out 30 most of the time and vary a great >deal between the 20's and 36. It appears that the extra workload the >cpu has to do draw stuff for the voodoos (as noted somewhere in the >documentatiion, I think) kills it and appears to thrash the 128k >secondary cache. I do have the triple buffering turned off, actually >every one of the voodoo2 options is turned off. >QUESTION: Is anyone seeing better frame rates with a voodoo2 with a >Pentium II cpu that has the 256k secondary cache? If so it would be >interesting to know where the trade-off point is in CPU speed. >By the way at 1024x768 the dual voodoos pull ahead. but the frame rate >is not fast enough to race. I'd rather use the 800x600 with full >detail. >Thanks. >Jeff Haas

I have a V1000 rendition card and a Voodoo2 in a P2/333 with 128mb ram. My observations follow... Rendition V1000 (Intergraph Reactor, about a year old): 640x480 - In-car, 12fps (19 AI cars), 20fps alone 640x480 - Chase, 20fps all the time 800x600 - In-car, 8fps (19 AI cars), 13fps alone 800x600 - Chase, 13 fps all the time 1024x768 - 4fps - period Voodoo2/12mb (Creative Labs, about 6 months old): 640x480 - In-car, 28fps (19 AI cars), 36fps alone 640x480 - Chase, 36fps all the time 800x600 - In-car, 23fps (19 AI cars), 36fps alone 800x600 - Chase, 36 fps all the time 1024x768 - Chase, 34 fps all the time Looks to me like they support 3dfx pretty damn well. The rendition chipset is only usefull if you're running a Papy driving simulator. If you're doing ANYTHING else, you may as well s***the rendition card as far as 3d games go, and invest in Voodo2 cards. says...

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>Thanks for letting us know this!! You have confirmed that once again >Papyrus' support for non-Rendition chips is abysmal. If you can't get >consistent high frame rates on your set-up, then the rest of us can >forget it....unless we are willing to buy a special video card just >for GPL, since the rest of industry ignores the Rendition chipset. >>I am running a CeleronA overclocked to 450 mhz and have both an 8 meg >>Thriller 3d card and an SLI configuration of Monster3d2 cards. I am >>running at 800x600 with the detail slider at 3/4 detail and all >>graphic options on. I am running a full field of 19 AI. >>The interesting thing is that the Thriller 3-d outperforms the SLI >>voodoos! The thriller gives me 36 fps almost all of the time while >>the voodoo2's can only crank out 30 most of the time and vary a great >>deal between the 20's and 36. It appears that the extra workload the >>cpu has to do draw stuff for the voodoos (as noted somewhere in the >>documentatiion, I think) kills it and appears to thrash the 128k >>secondary cache. I do have the triple buffering turned off, actually >>every one of the voodoo2 options is turned off. >>QUESTION: Is anyone seeing better frame rates with a voodoo2 with a >>Pentium II cpu that has the 256k secondary cache? If so it would be >>interesting to know where the trade-off point is in CPU speed. >>By the way at 1024x768 the dual voodoos pull ahead. but the frame rate >>is not fast enough to race. I'd rather use the 800x600 with full >>detail.

-- ========================================================= John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

Have you read the Hardware FAQ at this sight ? http://nh.ultranet.com/~alison/gpl/ I think the L2 cache and 100Mhz FSB make a difference with the V2's.

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>All, >QUESTION: Is anyone seeing better frame rates with a voodoo2 with a >Pentium II cpu that has the 256k secondary cache? If so it would be >interesting to know where the trade-off point is in CPU speed. >By the way at 1024x768 the dual voodoos pull ahead. but the frame rate >is not fast enough to race. I'd rather use the 800x600 with full >detail. >Thanks. >Jeff Haas

You better check your hardware...sounds like something is broken. PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G> http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

You may be able to overclock a CeleronA to 450, but that doesn't mean it's a p2-450... I have a p2-450 with a Diamond M3D2 (just one), and I get 36fps... Also, remember: If you have an older system, Rendition will probably out perform 3dfx2 If you have a P2/???, 3dfx2 will blow away Rendition Mike

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>All, >I am running a CeleronA overclocked to 450 mhz and have both an 8 meg >Thriller 3d card and an SLI configuration of Monster3d2 cards. I am >running at 800x600 with the detail slider at 3/4 detail and all >graphic options on. I am running a full field of 19 AI. >The interesting thing is that the Thriller 3-d outperforms the SLI >voodoos! The thriller gives me 36 fps almost all of the time while >the voodoo2's can only crank out 30 most of the time and vary a great >deal between the 20's and 36. It appears that the extra workload the >cpu has to do draw stuff for the voodoos (as noted somewhere in the >documentatiion, I think) kills it and appears to thrash the 128k >secondary cache. I do have the triple buffering turned off, actually >every one of the voodoo2 options is turned off. >QUESTION: Is anyone seeing better frame rates with a voodoo2 with a >Pentium II cpu that has the 256k secondary cache? If so it would be >interesting to know where the trade-off point is in CPU speed. >By the way at 1024x768 the dual voodoos pull ahead. but the frame rate >is not fast enough to race. I'd rather use the 800x600 with full

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>All, >I am running a CeleronA overclocked to 450 mhz and have both an 8 meg >Thriller 3d card and an SLI configuration of Monster3d2 cards. I am >running at 800x600 with the detail slider at 3/4 detail and all >graphic options on. I am running a full field of 19 AI. >The interesting thing is that the Thriller 3-d outperforms the SLI >voodoos! The thriller gives me 36 fps almost all of the time while >the voodoo2's can only crank out 30 most of the time and vary a great >deal between the 20's and 36. It appears that the extra workload the >cpu has to do draw stuff for the voodoos (as noted somewhere in the >documentatiion, I think) kills it and appears to thrash the 128k >secondary cache. I do have the triple buffering turned off, actually >every one of the voodoo2 options is turned off. >QUESTION: Is anyone seeing better frame rates with a voodoo2 with a >Pentium II cpu that has the 256k secondary cache? If so it would be >interesting to know where the trade-off point is in CPU speed. >By the way at 1024x768 the dual voodoos pull ahead. but the frame rate >is not fast enough to race. I'd rather use the 800x600 with full >detail. >Thanks. >Jeff Haas

How do you enable the frame rate counter. I just got the game last night and I haven't had time to read the manual so don't bite my head off. I had to just start playing as soon as I got the game. I have a Celeron without cache running at 448Mhz and SLI CL Voodoo 2 12MB cards. I was running at 800 x 600 with full field and max detail and it wasn't smooth, very hard to drive. I had played the demo with one 12MB Voodoo 2 and it was absolutely smooth at 800 x 600. Anyway I turned the detail slider back to the middle and turned off clouds and went to 640 x 480 and it was really smooth. Actually in my configuration one 12MB voodoo 2 is just as fast as SLI at 640 x 480 in all the games I have benchmarked. With SLI you can get the same frame rate at 800 x 600 that you got at 640 x 480 with just one Voodoo 2. I love the game, but it's the hardest racing game I have ever played. Practice practice and practice some more. Jerry

Alt-F enables the frame rate counter. -- Don Burnette Palmetto Racing Dburn on Ten AOLL Iroc Series Administrator http://pages.southtech.net/palmetto/aoll.htm >How do you enable the frame rate counter. I just got the game last night and I >haven't had time to read the manual so don't bite my head off. I had to just >start playing as soon as I got the game. snip

Not all of us have the latest V2 12MB 3dfx cards.... People pointing out that they can get terrific frame rates on the most premium equipment isn't very helpful, at least to me (we can usually figure that out ourselves). I need to know how well more modest equipment performs.

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>I have a V1000 rendition card and a Voodoo2 in a P2/333 with 128mb ram. >My observations follow... >Rendition V1000 (Intergraph Reactor, about a year old): >640x480 - In-car, 12fps (19 AI cars), 20fps alone >640x480 - Chase, 20fps all the time >800x600 - In-car, 8fps (19 AI cars), 13fps alone >800x600 - Chase, 13 fps all the time >1024x768 - 4fps - period >Voodoo2/12mb (Creative Labs, about 6 months old): >640x480 - In-car, 28fps (19 AI cars), 36fps alone >640x480 - Chase, 36fps all the time >800x600 - In-car, 23fps (19 AI cars), 36fps alone >800x600 - Chase, 36 fps all the time >1024x768 - Chase, 34 fps all the time >Looks to me like they support 3dfx pretty damn well. The rendition >chipset is only usefull if you're running a Papy driving simulator. If >you're doing ANYTHING else, you may as well s***the rendition card as >far as 3d games go, and invest in Voodo2 cards. >says... >>Thanks for letting us know this!! You have confirmed that once again >>Papyrus' support for non-Rendition chips is abysmal. If you can't get >>consistent high frame rates on your set-up, then the rest of us can >>forget it....unless we are willing to buy a special video card just >>for GPL, since the rest of industry ignores the Rendition chipset. >>>I am running a CeleronA overclocked to 450 mhz and have both an 8 meg >>>Thriller 3d card and an SLI configuration of Monster3d2 cards. I am >>>running at 800x600 with the detail slider at 3/4 detail and all >>>graphic options on. I am running a full field of 19 AI. >>>The interesting thing is that the Thriller 3-d outperforms the SLI >>>voodoos! The thriller gives me 36 fps almost all of the time while >>>the voodoo2's can only crank out 30 most of the time and vary a great >>>deal between the 20's and 36. It appears that the extra workload the >>>cpu has to do draw stuff for the voodoos (as noted somewhere in the >>>documentatiion, I think) kills it and appears to thrash the 128k >>>secondary cache. I do have the triple buffering turned off, actually >>>every one of the voodoo2 options is turned off. >>>QUESTION: Is anyone seeing better frame rates with a voodoo2 with a >>>Pentium II cpu that has the 256k secondary cache? If so it would be >>>interesting to know where the trade-off point is in CPU speed. >>>By the way at 1024x768 the dual voodoos pull ahead. but the frame rate >>>is not fast enough to race. I'd rather use the 800x600 with full >>>detail. >-- >========================================================= >John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) >http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html >John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector >http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html >If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's >shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. >=========================================================

>You better check your hardware...sounds like something is broken. >PAPA DOC Thanks for the very useful post. Jeff

On Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:09:29 -0400, "Mike Petersen"

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>You may be able to overclock a CeleronA to 450, but that doesn't mean it's >a p2-450... >I have a p2-450 with a Diamond M3D2 (just one), and I get 36fps... >Also, remember: >If you have an older system, Rendition will probably out perform 3dfx2 >If you have a P2/???, 3dfx2 will blow away Rendition >Mike

Thanks for the info Mike, that confirms my thoughts about the lack of full cache on the celeronA. I'm well aware of what I have :) . given the cost, it's a great solution until the prices drop. Jeff

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>On Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:09:29 -0400, "Mike Petersen" >>You may be able to overclock a CeleronA to 450, but that doesn't mean it's >>a p2-450... >>I have a p2-450 with a Diamond M3D2 (just one), and I get 36fps... >>Also, remember: >>If you have an older system, Rendition will probably out perform 3dfx2 >>If you have a P2/???, 3dfx2 will blow away Rendition >Thanks for the info Mike, that confirms my thoughts about the lack of >full cache on the celeronA. I'm well aware of what I have :) . given >the cost, it's a great solution until the prices drop.

The Celeron A should be very comparable to the P2 at the same clock speed -- 128 KB of full-speed cache compares nicely to 512 KB of half-speed cache. Obviously some programs will be faster on one or the other depending on the core working set, but I really doubt you'd notice the difference in any game. (The old L2-cacheless Celerons are another story, but even they are good enough for many games, since the core working set often fits in L1 cache.) Increasing your cache size is good, but you get seriously diminishing returns in typical programs. (If your L1 cache has a 90% hit rate, and L1 plus the first 128 KB of L2 has a 95% hit rate, then all the additional cache in the world can only come into play 5% of the time.) Data point: P2-333 overclocked to 412 MHz. Voodoo 1 card. 640x480. 32-36 fps when hotlapping at the Glen, with all details on. Solid 36 fps with a few details turned off. 8 fps in the back of the pits behind 19 computer cars, rising to about 25 fps after the start. Looks like there's a ton of overdraw going on when a lot of cars are displayed, and a Voodoo 2's extra fill rate helps a lot in that situation. Given a fast CPU, the game is very playable with a Voodoo 1 at 640x480. (800x600 is noticably slower.) With the Celeron 300a at $143 and Voodoo 1 cards at $49, I don't think GPL's hardware requirements are out of line. It would be nice if the actual requirements were on the box, though. (The time spent on the unusable software renderer should have been spent on a D3D or OpenGL port, so the people with TNT, i740, G200, and future 3D cards could play, too.) -- spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

Your welcome... PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Pink Flamingo Pilot... http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

Is GPL runing faster with rendition card or voodoo?I think I read somewhere that is faster with rendition on systems up to PII300 and faster with voodoo II on systems over PII300. ________________________________________________________________________ | Marko Hadjina _ , ,----,Tehnicki fakultet| | F.la Guardia 23 _._ .___(_)|\===--,- _. | | Rijeka,CROATIA | | 51000 RIJEKA _./ _ \' ,----------,- / _ \'---' ---------------- | | CROATIA ,-=,( (_) ) | HAWK | ( (_) ) UNIVERSITY OF | |Phone-051/214830 '---'-\___/--'----------'--\___/ NAVAL ARHITECTURE | +----------------- The New Power in IndyCar Racing ----------------------+

I have been testing with both my V-Raptor 4MB AGP card (rendition V2200) and my voodoo 2 12MB SLI combination and came up with some suprises. At 640 x 480 , 19 cars, everything on and detail slider at 50% I ran both video cards at Monza. Celeron 266 cacheless (4 x 112MHz =448MHz ) Abit BH6 (Intel BX) 64MB ram MONZA Sitting in the pit (Ferrari) 3DFX Voodoo2 12MB (SLI) 12 fps Rendition V2200 4MB 21 fps back of full grid 3DFX Voodoo2 12MB (SLI) 15 fps Rendition V2200 4MB 20 fps Start of race 3DFX Voodoo2 12MB (SLI) 12 fps slowly climbs to 21 then max of 26 fps Rendition V2200 4MB 16 fps Immediatly back to 20 then 36 fps by the time you get to the fences . Stays at 36 fps for the rest of the race. Even four cars around me the frame rate stays at 36 fps. This is the only game that supports both the 3DFX and Rendition card that the Voodoo 2 has lost. I have two Voodoo 2 cards in SLI so it must be the CPU. To be fair the second Voodoo 2 card doesn't start adding fps unless your in 800 x 600 but that is always equal to or slower than 640 x 480. With this Combination I can get 35 FPS average, as good as Pentium II 450, on Unreal timedemo.02 at 1024 x 768 . In SODA OFF Road , another sierra papyrus auto sim, the rendition mode is the same framerate as the software mode (27-30 fps at 640x 480). Even in Monster Truck Madness 2 , which has both a glide and rendition mode, one Voodoo 2 12Mb is about 10 fps faster ( 55 fps vs. 45 fps). Jerry

I have a p2-266. Set to have 15 opponents, just cars and track in mirror, no textures, and no lighting effects, I get: Monza 1 Voodoo2 12mb 90mhz Rendition v2100 4mb (60mhz) Start 18 22 ~4 cars 26 24 no cars vis 36 28 I'm going to stick with the voodoo if I can purge the lockups. So far so good since I moved away another PCI card which was next to it.

That's weird.. you've somehow got MAJOR problems. I've got a P2-233, 64 MB Ram, Stealth II S220 (v2100 Rendition) .. I just tried your little test.. get 36 FPS all the way around (except for the start..dropped to 16fps). With all details on, 16 sounds, 19 opponents, I get a steady 28+ fps. You've got the better system.. so something's wrong with your system. Do you have any other applications running. Close everything. (Internet browsers, ICQ chat windows (although you can leave icq on the taskbar), I don't know.. try cntrl-alt-del and then close what ever isn't needed. You should be getting a lot better performance. You may want to overclock you video card, too (I haven't yet). There's plenty of utilities out there. Try www.bjorn32.com - its a great Rendition site with drivers, utilities, and lots more. If you haven't already done so, you might want to fill in my GPL System Performance Test on my website ( http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl ) The first set of results should be up in the next couple of days. I've got two tests: the first pushes your system to the max, the other goes easy and sees what graphic options you need on/off for your system to be capable of 36fps with 5 opponents and 4 sounds. doktorB http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl For the GPL demo track files(Watkins Glen AND Monza), FAQs,demo help, release date updates, preview pics, GPL box covers and more! new ** GPL System Performace Test ** Poll-of-the-Week: What is your favourite GPL track so far? ------

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>I have a p2-266. Set to have 15 opponents, just cars and track in mirror, >no textures, and no lighting effects, I get: >Monza 1 Voodoo2 12mb 90mhz Rendition v2100 4mb >(60mhz) >Start 18 >22 >~4 cars 26 24 >no cars vis 36 28 >I'm going to stick with the voodoo if I can purge the lockups. So far so >good since I moved away another PCI card which was next to it.

Oops. Did I mention this was 800x600? They both go pretty fast in 640, but I can't see as well.