I'm just going to keep this post to one topic because it could (will) get
long. I'm willing to say the game is a 10/10 if people can tell me I'm wrong
in the following post. I actually hope you guys can do just that, so I can
drop my concerns and just enjoy it, as is.
I really want to love this sim but I have some serious concerns as to the
accuracy of the handling of the cars. They just seem to be too wild. Even
for '67 F1. It is certainly possible to adapt and put up fast times in GPL,
but it's the way you have to drive the cars in order to get those times that
has me wondering. If you look at the replays by the beta testers and the
developers (including Kaemmer) which are included with the sim, the cars are
all over the track, criss-crossing the drive line (which is the fastest and
smoothest line around the track) instead of holding close to it. I watched
each one from the chase view. Then I checked the AI, and they straddle the
drive line and stay very, very, smooth through a race or practice session. I
didn't see one replay where the testers were able to hold the drive line for
very long through a lap. Not even close actually. The AI cars seem to drive
the way I'd expect the rest (or at least the more dedicated and talented) of
us should, yet even though the testers and developers have been racing this
sim almost every day (I'm guessing) for maybe 5 months, they can't do it.
Also, when I read the reports of the Papy Cup races, there is an awful lot
of crashing going on and Alison said that when they would run a race with
"shift-r" unavailable, it was not uncommon for no one (or few) to finish the
race. With all the experience those people have with the sim (and their
talent), why aren't the races more realistic in their results? I just don't
get the impression that anyone can run the same lap times as the AI, and do
it with the same smoothness and control (holding the race line which is the
fastest path around the track) that they do. Also, could anyone drive that
way for a full race (or even 5 laps?).
If not, then why? Either the AI is wrong or there is something wrong with
the drive model. They can't both be right or the most experienced drivers
(like Kaemmer) would look close to the same way on the track as the AI. The
cars react too much to the smallest steering input IMO. I've seen some film
of cars from that era and they looked to be fairly smooth around the course.
Even in the rain (which IMO would be a mess to try to drive in with GPL).
What I noticed about the real life drivers was that they really whipped the
wheel around. Even in F1 today, real life drivers wrench that wheel quite a
bit. In GPL, watch an in cab view of an available replay, or of yourself if
your fairly good, and look at how little the steering wheel moves. People
are driving by only moving the wheel a few degrees. There's about as much
arm movement as an 80 year old Sunday driver needs to drive his Caddy on the
open highway. There's even less movement by the AI drivers. I think someone
described the steering as "ultra power steering" in a post here at r.a.s. It
feels much too sensitive, especially compared to real life. The
linear/non-linear slider isn't the answer. I've heard these '67 cars
described as "overpowered, wooly handling, monsters" a million times. So why
is the steering SO delicate? Marc Collins has said that a speed sensitive
slider would be best good for this sim and I strongly agree.
If you just step back and try to approach the sim with a fresh view (even if
you love it), and look at the way the cars handle, and how the steering
responds to your input, something seems wrong. The way the best drivers'
cars look as they do a competitive lap looks wrong, or at the least,
considerably different from the AI. The results from races by people with
months of practice time, and more talent than the average sim driver, are
very surprising considering the amount of accidents that are still
occurring.
David G Fisher
DmndDave
Notable threadFlame warDebate over GPL car handling, AI lines and difficulty
David G Fisher questioned why human hotlaps in GPL looked wild and sideways while the AI drove smoothly at similar times. Respondents argued hotlaps differ from race driving, pointed to Dave Mansell's smooth Spa hotlap as proof that clean fast driving was possible, and debated whether GPL confused difficulty with realism. The thread degenerated when Jay Wolf declared the cars too twitchy and traded insults with several regulars, though he later conceded his skills were improving.
Automated summary.
Quoted text (11 lines)
> If you look at the replays by the beta testers and the > developers (including Kaemmer) which are included with the sim, the cars are > all over the track, criss-crossing the drive line (which is the fastest and > smoothest line around the track) instead of holding close to it. I watched > each one from the chase view. Then I checked the AI, and they straddle the > drive line and stay very, very, smooth through a race or practice session. I > didn't see one replay where the testers were able to hold the drive line for > very long through a lap. Not even close actually. The AI cars seem to drive > the way I'd expect the rest (or at least the more dedicated and talented) of > us should, yet even though the testers and developers have been racing this > sim almost every day (I'm guessing) for maybe 5 months, they can't do it.On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 05:27:21 -0400, "David G Fisher"
>talent), why aren't the races more realistic in their results? I just don't
>get the impression that anyone can run the same lap times as the AI, and do
>it with the same smoothness and control (holding the race line which is the
>fastest path around the track) that they do. Also, could anyone drive that
>way for a full race (or even 5 laps?).
A few comments...
- First of all the laps being driven are probably "hotlaps", which
mean the driver is on the limit and it becomes progressively more and
more difficult to follow the lines.
- Secondly, the lines are just "a line" around the circuit, not THE
line around the circuit. Take the run from Hugenholtzbocht at
Zandvoort - I've tried a number of lines through that right-left-right
section, brake late and late apex, smoothly drive through, drift
through on opposite lock, early apex and pitch the car through -
that's a number of variations even before you take into account
irregularities and errors in my driving. The line is there partly as
an indication of ideal line for new drivers, partly as an indication
of braking points and partly to enhance the realism and atmosphere -
it's not something that will necessarily benefit you by following it.
Also, in the real world this line is far less obvious and you don't
have the advantage of watching it from the angles you can in GPL. That
makes the difference more pronounced.
- Finally IMO it is possible to follow the lines and be that smooth,
but I can't do it and be quick. That's more down to a lack of ability
on my part, going in slightly too hot to corners and running wide on
exit etc.
This is from convenience I think. You can make the wheel move massive
amounts by adjusting the lock but small movements are quicker.
Maybe someone from Papy could stop by and explain what they can since
to comment on the internal workings of the game engine are not my
domain. GPL models a racecar in vastly more detail than anything that
has gone before, and I can assure you that is not marketing froth to
sell the game, the stuff Mike Lescault described was the mere tip of
the iceberg. Sometimes in testing Dave would describe a tweak or piece
of fine-tuning he had done within the game to a collective "You're
modelling THAT???" from the test team. What I'm getting at is that I
would be amazed if the game did feel similar to what we know, and
perhaps that is the issue? The last time I found GPL to be "funny" to
control was when I installed my PDPI-L4, and it took some messing with
linearity, lock and DirectInput to get it back to what I feel is a
smooth and accurate feel.
I believe that's because we suffer a lack of talent, a lack of
self-preservation, a lack of racecraft and a lack of patience. All of
the people you refer to can run many, many laps without incident, but
when you're following someone and faster an accident tends to happen
for the reasons outlined above. Moves are made based upon what is
succesful against the AI (who reflect the self-preservation instinct),
not what can be succesful against a human. This generates more
accidents than would otherwise be expected, since the precarious
balance between fear and the desire to win is totally lost. Practice
and respect for opponents will help I believe.
Cheers!
John
> The last time I found GPL to be "funny" to
> control was when I installed my PDPI-L4, and it took some messing with
> linearity, lock and DirectInput to get it back to what I feel is a
> smooth and accurate feel.
John, could you please describe what you did to get GPL to feel smooth
with your PDPI gameport? I've jsut installed one in my rig and the cars
seem very "nervous" around center now... I've moved the linearity slider
in GPL more toward non-linear than I normally run it, but that hasn't
completely restored the feel...
Before I go back to an analog gameport (CH Gamecard3), I'd like to try
whatever changes you've made...
Thanks in advance,
David
Quoted text (8 lines)
> If you just step back and try to approach the sim with a fresh view (even if > you love it), and look at the way the cars handle, and how the steering > responds to your input, something seems wrong. The way the best drivers' > cars look as they do a competitive lap looks wrong, or at the least, > considerably different from the AI. The results from races by people with > months of practice time, and more talent than the average sim driver, are > very surprising considering the amount of accidents that are still > occurring.Quoted text (8 lines)
>On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 05:27:21 -0400, "David G Fisher" >A few comments... >- First of all the laps being driven are probably "hotlaps", which >mean the driver is on the limit and it becomes progressively more and >more difficult to follow the lines.% > The last time I found GPL to be "funny" to
% > control was when I installed my PDPI-L4, and it took some messing with
% > linearity, lock and DirectInput to get it back to what I feel is a
% > smooth and accurate feel.
% John, could you please describe what you did to get GPL to feel smooth
% with your PDPI gameport? . . . <snip>
And while you are at it, can you please explain your experiences with
DirectInput vs. Generic (if any)?
Thanks.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Quoted text (61 lines)
> I'm just going to keep this post to one topic because it could (will) get > long. I'm willing to say the game is a 10/10 if people can tell me I'm wrong > in the following post. I actually hope you guys can do just that, so I can > drop my concerns and just enjoy it, as is. > I really want to love this sim but I have some serious concerns as to the > accuracy of the handling of the cars. They just seem to be too wild. Even > for '67 F1. It is certainly possible to adapt and put up fast times in GPL, > but it's the way you have to drive the cars in order to get those times that > has me wondering. If you look at the replays by the beta testers and the > developers (including Kaemmer) which are included with the sim, the cars are > all over the track, criss-crossing the drive line (which is the fastest and > smoothest line around the track) instead of holding close to it. I watched > each one from the chase view. Then I checked the AI, and they straddle the > drive line and stay very, very, smooth through a race or practice session. I > didn't see one replay where the testers were able to hold the drive line for > very long through a lap. Not even close actually. The AI cars seem to drive > the way I'd expect the rest (or at least the more dedicated and talented) of > us should, yet even though the testers and developers have been racing this > sim almost every day (I'm guessing) for maybe 5 months, they can't do it. > Also, when I read the reports of the Papy Cup races, there is an awful lot > of crashing going on and Alison said that when they would run a race with > "shift-r" unavailable, it was not uncommon for no one (or few) to finish the > race. With all the experience those people have with the sim (and their > talent), why aren't the races more realistic in their results? I just don't > get the impression that anyone can run the same lap times as the AI, and do > it with the same smoothness and control (holding the race line which is the > fastest path around the track) that they do. Also, could anyone drive that > way for a full race (or even 5 laps?). > If not, then why? Either the AI is wrong or there is something wrong with > the drive model. They can't both be right or the most experienced drivers > (like Kaemmer) would look close to the same way on the track as the AI. The > cars react too much to the smallest steering input IMO. I've seen some film > of cars from that era and they looked to be fairly smooth around the course. > Even in the rain (which IMO would be a mess to try to drive in with GPL). > What I noticed about the real life drivers was that they really whipped the > wheel around. Even in F1 today, real life drivers wrench that wheel quite a > bit. In GPL, watch an in cab view of an available replay, or of yourself if > your fairly good, and look at how little the steering wheel moves. People > are driving by only moving the wheel a few degrees. There's about as much > arm movement as an 80 year old Sunday driver needs to drive his Caddy on the > open highway. There's even less movement by the AI drivers. I think someone > described the steering as "ultra power steering" in a post here at r.a.s. It > feels much too sensitive, especially compared to real life. The > linear/non-linear slider isn't the answer. I've heard these '67 cars > described as "overpowered, wooly handling, monsters" a million times. So why > is the steering SO delicate? Marc Collins has said that a speed sensitive > slider would be best good for this sim and I strongly agree. > If you just step back and try to approach the sim with a fresh view (even if > you love it), and look at the way the cars handle, and how the steering > responds to your input, something seems wrong. The way the best drivers' > cars look as they do a competitive lap looks wrong, or at the least, > considerably different from the AI. The results from races by people with > months of practice time, and more talent than the average sim driver, are > very surprising considering the amount of accidents that are still > occurring. > David G Fisher > DmndDaveOn Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:20:33 -0400, "David G Fisher"
>They may be hotlaps, but the times are very close to that of the AI.
You miss the point. You compare a) the drivers b) the AI, and c) the
movie. The drivers are hotlapping, the AI have to be able to match
those times or they will not be competitive with the way humans drive,
and the people in the movie are trying to make a movie without killing
themselves.
The AI match the movie because that's how they're supposed to look and
drive. They do the same speeds we do because they need to match us. We
have no fear and fling the cars round like madmen. For that reason the
look differs.
There is no optimum line, just "a" line. The AI follow it because
that's what they do. If you watch a field of humans they will all take
slightly different lines due to errors and differing styles.
In real life racing a line appears _averaging_ the laps that the
drivers are following - it is not "one" line it is an amalgam of all
the lines driven which comes to resemble one wider line.
See above - that would not make sense.
What you see is not issues with the drive model but with
interpretation of what you see.
I've seen Schumacher drive off the track under no pressure - if he can
do then surely it's allowed for others who have less practice, lass
talent and lack the feel of the car under their butt? Whatever we may
think we are not racecar drivers, and we lack the physical and mental
ability to place a car, right line, every time. There are exceptions,
and if you see Matt Sentell and Dave Kaemmer driving you would see it
is certainly possible. I watched Doug Arnao's replays at the Ring of
all places and he wa doing laps within ONE second of each other - one
second after more than 8 minutes of driving! Consistency is certainly
possible but it takes practice, skill and dedication.
I don't agree at all that the human players should resemble the AI,
but they should be smooth, consistent and error free. The top drivers
are IMO.
I haven't seen the release version but I imagine the laps on there are
designed to be "Wow, look at that guy drive!" sort of stuff. That's
not comparable - it depends on style. Two of the beta-team were/are
hotlap afficionados, and had a little battle at Spa a while back. One
guy was sideways through the Masta Kink at 170mph+, driving the wheels
of the car and smoking tyres into every corner. The other guy was
controlled, precise, smooth, almost SLOW looking. The laptimes were as
near as dammit identical. It's not the game engine, it's the inputs
you give it.
I'm not sure if Alison's site has any hotlap replays for download but
you might want to look out for any by Doug Arnao. I'm always amazed by
his laps, how utterly in control they look, even almost slow, but the
laptimes are awesome. Doug is a car guy and races for a living, so
perhaps his approach is different to those of us weaned on sims?
Perhaps that's the difference?
Cheers!
John
Someone who disagrees with you is not flaming you.
Cheers!
John
Is there a sim where anyone drives identically to the AI? Take ICR2 for eg. If you wanna
be slow, drive like the AI. The AI is basically a moron and comparing it the the ever
changing and inconsistant (even in the case of the most consistant drivers) human drivers
is just nonsense. We are a LONG LONG way away from AI that is anything like true human
behaviour. The AI is like a train on a track that makes the odd random error. Again, no
comparison to human behaviour at all.
As far as consistancy goes, simmers need to up their game as we take yet another
glorious step toward the true sim and away from arcade! Also, here's a quote from Alison
from the Papy cup
"Monaco is a hell of a place to hold a motor race, expecially when the field is filled
out with NASCAR drivers in Formula 1 cars!"
--
Byron Forbes
Captain of Team Lightning Bolt
http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS
and
http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm
Quoted text (24 lines)
> > If you just step back and try to approach the sim with a fresh view (even if > > you love it), and look at the way the cars handle, and how the steering > > responds to your input, something seems wrong. The way the best drivers' > > cars look as they do a competitive lap looks wrong, or at the least, > > considerably different from the AI. The results from races by people with > > months of practice time, and more talent than the average sim driver, are > > very surprising considering the amount of accidents that are still > > occurring. > My thoughts exactly. My question would be this: With the right > combination of throttle/brakes/gear changes at the right times, would it > be possible to drive like the AI, and as fast? I've yet to see it done > by the "hotlappers". Maybe it's just easier to swing the backend out and > slide around the corners... > Myself, I have to say that last night at Kyalami (my first attempt) I > resolved to just make it around for a couple of laps during practice to > get my tires hot. Much to my amazement, my cornering improved > dramatically! My brakes didn't even lock up as much. I even managed to > qualify in the middle of the pack (albeit in novice mode). > My goal is to drive like the AI. Can it be done? > Devon> The AI is like a train on a track that makes the odd random error. Again, no
> comparison to human behaviour at all.
Not according to what I just read in my strategy guide for GPL. See
"Winning Isn't Everything. Yeah Right".
I quote: "In 'Grand Prix Legends', the AI drivers act like, well, human
beings. Sometimes they make mistakes. Sometimes they're on top of their
game. Sometimes they make Herculean efforts only to have their cars let
them down. Some days they're uncatchable. Other days they should have
stayed in bed. And that's just when they're racing the tracks and each
other. When a computer-driven car comes up behind you and you try to
prevent it from passing you, the AI car won't simply bull its way past;
it will tuck in behind you for a lap or more if necessary, analyzing the
way you drive. When the AI determines where on the track you're the
slowest, that's where your opponent will make his move."
I'd like to add that based on footage that I've seen in various
documentaries from the era (including the recent airing of "9 Day's in
Summer") my observation is that the AI in GPL is much closer to "real
life" drivers of the time than the "hotlappers" of today.
Devon
I've been saying this for years. I'm not here to tell the people that if
they like something not to like it. But to understand your view and my view
as more of a commoners view. This is why GPL won't be played as much as it
should. Nascar 2 sold well but there are a lot of people that bought it and
shelved it way to early.
I believe your logic is so correct that it can not be argued sanely. I
always watched replays as part of my handling review. The one that is by far
the best for realism is Nascar in arcade with heavily modified ai settings.
This was poetry. You could be mistaken easily for an Ai driver lap after
lap. No AA500 there. I also like Toca, but the bumping wasn't realistic
watching replays, but in all actuality really lends itself better that it is
the way it is. Otherwise you would have blow out races and races where only
a few would finish in. Toca in a GP enviroment is absolutley excellent since
they do things to keep the race close unlike all other GP racers I've tried.
Without some type of added control from GPL I simply will not be able to get
my local gang into this game. The learning curve can not be much higher than
it is to jump into their own auto and drive it fast down the road. They will
become frustrated and ask for N2, Toca, MTM or some other genre.
I do like the net options they threw in here that I wish N2 had.
I'm lucky to be blessed with cable modems. I'm setting up my gang with USB
sound (another problem with dos N2) so we can have several sound sources
going at once. There is a program called Honeynet which allows a group of 8
to talk live to one another with a headset across the net while they are
playing their favorite game (works great with CTF Quake). This is only
possible with usb sound unless you don't want game sounds. This is just a
tech. message to some out there that might want to take advantage of this
awesome feature. Having N2 using GPL's netwokring abilities this would be
the shi!.
But I agree if the replays show the absolute pro's driving insanely on the
track then there has to be someting wrong. I personally have a feeling that
the players who do love it enjoy the challange and find the groove the game
does create even though it isn't really realistic fun to drive even though
it's quite dangerous.
BH
Bravo, Devon!
You are extremely observant and 100% accurate in your summation.
> I'd like to add that based on footage that I've seen in various
> documentaries from the era (including the recent airing of "9 Day's in
> Summer") my observation is that the AI in GPL is much closer to "real
> life" drivers of the time than the "hotlappers" of today.
> Devon
--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
Quoted text (10 lines)
>>Accuracy in the drive model is >>what I want as much as anyone but it doesn't look like that accuracy is >>being seen on the track. >It may come as something of a shock to you, but none of us (including all >the beta testers, Dave Kaemmer, yourself & myself) are top class racing >drivers. If we were, we wouldn't be messing about with sims, now would we ><g> So if we have to drive right at our limits to get the sort of times >that Clark, Brabbham & co could do in their sleep then what is so >unrealistic about that?> I'm just going to keep this post to one topic because it could (will) get
> long. I'm willing to say the game is a 10/10 if people can tell me I'm wrong
> I really want to love this sim but I have some serious concerns as to the
> accuracy of the handling of the cars.
> The AI cars seem to drive
> the way I'd expect the rest (or at least the more dedicated and talented)
>of us should
Multi-part answer---------
A. Go to Dave Mansell's Skunk Racing page
B. Download his hotlap & setup for Spa
C. Watch 3:17! hotlap
D. Cry
E. Load setup
F. Drive
G. Say "Oh"
This is how you do it. Smooth and Faaaaasssst. No more slideways craziness.
The man's an artist.
Still slow, but less so
Steve B.
wrote...
I agree that the cars are extremely difficult to control as the drivers
of that era were able to do. I have yet to visit Mansell's page and see
his recent hotlaps that have been said to be closer to what we would
expect from good (no, great) drivers.
But - this is a "Racing Simulation" not a "Game". I knew what I was
getting into when I bought it. It's the challenge that keeps me coming
back.
Devon
<snip>
% Can they follow the lines, be as smooth as the AI, AND still match the AI's
% lap times, especially in qualifying? Can they do it lap after lap? I would
% expect after all these months that they could. If you just use the drive
% line as a reference point, it's easy to see people are drifting in turns,
% swirving along the straights, and basically loose all over the track. Even
% if the line wasn't there, you can see where mistakes are being made. They
% make up for the control mistakes by being quicker on the throttle, and with
% their braking.These are people who have been driving the game for 5 months
% already, and I know they have a high talent level.
<snip>
I hear where you are coming from and I understand. I was beginning to
wonder if I could ever hope to make these "high times" being posted and
still "drive" in a "sane" manner. After some minor tweaking of the
setup, I can now come within a second and a half of the AI's best times
at Monza. While I am not as "smooth" and "perfect" as the AI, their
method of attacking the track is what I am aiming for. I have always
found the "hotlap" replays to be rather NFS in approach and fine for
hotlaps, but nothing that could be used for racing. The keys I have
found to coming close to driving smooth is two-fold...
1) Maximum frame rate along with consitent frame rate. This is the
first key. I am running a PII 300 with a Voodoo2 12mb card and find
that it is necessary to drop down to 512x384 with a few graphics turned
off to keep my frame rate high and consitent enough to race with the AI.
2) Controller precision... Get the best you can get (along with
controller card). While I don't have the "cream of the crop"
(Thrustmaster NASCAR Pro w/ACM), it is vital to have acceleration and
braking on separate axes.
Now if I can only master the art of braking I would be that much closer
to my goal... While the brake on the TM NASCAR Pro is stiff, it doesn't
have the real feel of a real brake, but I am re-training my left foot
(but it is *** when I switch back to my street car <G>).
Also, one must realize that the AI are driving with the feedback of all
of the senses us humans are missing in the sim....
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
% I've been saying this for years. I'm not here to tell the people that if
% they like something not to like it. But to understand your view and my view
% as more of a commoners view. This is why GPL won't be played as much as it
% should. Nascar 2 sold well but there are a lot of people that bought it and
% shelved it way to early.
<other excellent observations and comments snipped>
I guess it boils down to, I don't give a ***that "average-joes"
"non-simmers" won't/can't enjoy the beauty of GPL. While I agree with
your observations (and to a lesser degree your comments), I enjoy the
the challenge presented to me by GPL. And my goal is to drive it
as smooth (and fast) as I can possibily can. Just because others want
to toss their car around and make the HotLap Top 10, doesn't deter me
from enjoying the shear beauty of GPL. And I am getting smoother (and
faster) now that I can tune the car to my driving style.
I actually believe that GPL offers the physics to drive the car smooth
and fast (one must develop the talent for it -- just like in real life
racing). This just raises the *sim* bar a few notches higher (which is
a damn good thing in my book).
Other software houses will continue to make "arcade/sim" racing sims, so
the "commoner" should feel too left out.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I looked at the replay and it's a GREAT bit of driving, I mean that
sincerely, but it's also the perfect example of looking nothing like the AI.
David G Fisher
DmndDave
craziness.
>The man's an artist.
>Still slow, but less so
>Steve B.
Quoted text (10 lines)
>Multi-part answer--------- >A. Go to Dave Mansell's Skunk Racing page >B. Download his hotlap & setup for Spa >C. Watch 3:17! hotlap >D. Cry >E. Load setup >F. Drive >G. Say "Oh" >This is how you do it. Smooth and Faaaaasssst. No more slideways> Now if I can only master the art of braking I would be that much closer
> to my goal... While the brake on the TM NASCAR Pro is stiff, it doesn't
> have the real feel of a real brake, but I am re-training my left foot
> (but it is *** when I switch back to my street car <G>).
I too use a TM NASCAR PRO and brake in GPL with my left foot. It scares
the hell out of me to think that my reflexes may get me screwed up on I75
doing 80mph in our little "Winston Cup" rush hour traffic (sometimes it
seems like everyone is flying but there's only about 5" between us).
If it gets real bad I break my engine because I jammed my car into gear
by just lifting off the accelerator and didn't push in the clutch.
Currently it's the other way around, though. I sometimes step on my
brake while lifting on the accelerator and shifting in GPL ;)
Devon
> If it gets real bad I break my engine because I jammed my car into gear
> by just lifting off the accelerator and didn't push in the clutch.
> Currently it's the other way around, though. I sometimes step on my
> brake while lifting on the accelerator and shifting in GPL ;)
hehe ;) i had a similar experience just a couple of days ago,
i was nailing it up a short stretch of road (this is a ***y little
car so "nailing it" doesn't really mean anything impressive) and
shifted into 3rd with a little bit of a graunch in an otherwise smooth
upshift and thought initially that the clutch was acting up - before
i realised that i had never even touched the clutch pedal at all
during the gearshift! that was definitely GPL influence leaking out
into my real driving there:) fortunately also due to GPL influence
the shift was timed well enough to minimise any potential damage.
Steve, could you post Dave's URL? I never have seen his site and hear it's
pretty good.
Thanks
-don
"To race is to live, everything else is just waiting." - Rudi Caracciola
Quoted text (7 lines)
>> While the brake on the TM NASCAR Pro is stiff, it doesn't >> have the real feel of a real brake, but I am re-training my left foot >> (but it is *** when I switch back to my street car <G>). >I too use a TM NASCAR PRO and brake in GPL with my left foot. It scares >the hell out of me to think that my reflexes may get me screwed up on I75 >doing 80mph in our little "Winston Cup" rush hour trafficGeez, I can see the lawsuits now "Injured driver sues sim manufacturer."
Kurt
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > If it gets real bad I break my engine because I jammed my car into gear > > by just lifting off the accelerator and didn't push in the clutch. > > Currently it's the other way around, though. I sometimes step on my > > brake while lifting on the accelerator and shifting in GPL ;) > hehe ;) i had a similar experience just a couple of days ago, > i was nailing it up a short stretch of road (this is a ***y little > car so "nailing it" doesn't really mean anything impressive) and > shifted into 3rd with a little bit of a graunch in an otherwise smooth > upshift and thought initially that the clutch was acting up - before > i realised that i had never even touched the clutch pedal at all > during the gearshift! that was definitely GPL influence leaking out > into my real driving there:) fortunately also due to GPL influence > the shift was timed well enough to minimise any potential damage.> Steve, could you post Dave's URL? I never have seen his site and hear it's
> pretty good.
It's at:
http://www.fan.net.au/~mansell/
have fun!
Trips
>It may come as something of a shock to you, but none of us (including all
>the beta testers, Dave Kaemmer, yourself & myself) are top class racing
>drivers. If we were, we wouldn't be messing about with sims, now would we
><g> So if we have to drive right at our limits to get the sort of times
>that Clark, Brabbham & co could do in their sleep then what is so
>unrealistic about that?
Sims will always be easier than real life. IMO, it's not even close no
matter how good the sim is. In the aviation industry, NASA, and the military
for example, they have incredible simulators which go much, much farther
than any PC sim because they also can subject you to g-forces and the
elements. People still master them. Even then, they still can't jump into a
jet with 200 passengers, a fighter jet, or the space shuttle, because the
simulators aren't anywhere near enough of a test to determine someone's
abilities. There's a long list of things that sims can't re-create, fear and
consequences being high on that list. So yes, I do expect after a certain
amount of time that the most dedicated and talented would be able to drive
GPL in a way as to resemble the AI which look very, very similiar to the
real life drivers of that era. I don't care how hard or easy GPL is for me
or anyone, I just want to know if it's possible, and if not, then why? I
actually don't see the learning curve (to be fast) for me in GPL to be much
different than the other sims I've run. Obviously, it's possible to be fast.
I'm just concerned about the accuracy of the WAY we are being fast.
Is it possible that GPL requires ff in order to drive the cars smooth? If
so, and the developers felt that current ff really wasn't good enough to be
included in the sim, then shouldn't they have fudged GPL in some way to
compensate until ff technology is advanced enough? Have other developers
done this? GPL's physics model can be absolutely perfect in it's accuracy,
but without the real world feedback necessary to drive a car, then what we
are experiencing is possibly more unrealistic than a physics model which has
been fudged.
It's not about "gameplay", it's about realism. Sims are supposed to be
realistic. So far, I haven't seen realistic driving, just fast. As a matter
of fact, I've seen some replays in the past few days which the driver is
very, very fast, and I'm surprised how the cars look because it would be
impossible for them to ever be driven that way in real life. Is that
accurate or realistic? I'm going to concentrate on being smooth and fast in
GPL, and I'm hoping I can do it (and see others do it as well). If not, I
think I'll be very disappointed sometime in the future.
David G Fisher
DmndDave
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:19:08 -0400, "David G Fisher"
>abilities. There's a long list of things that sims can't re-create, fear and
>consequences being high on that list. So yes, I do expect after a certain
>amount of time that the most dedicated and talented would be able to drive
>GPL in a way as to resemble the AI which look very, very similiar to the
>real life drivers of that era.
Pardon me if I've misunderstood you David but it seems there's a total
contradiction in what you are expecting. In one breath you say that
sims can't recreate fear and consequences, yet in the next you say
that the best drivers should resemble the AI. Yet the AI drive like
the real drivers (hence affected by fear and consequences) and within
the sim we are not. Surely then the best drivers would be expected to
drive like you imagine Clark and Hill would if they were unfussed by
trifling details like staying alive?
That seems to be what we see from the Achim Trensz's, Doug Arnao's and
Dave Mansell's of the world - fast, smooth, but taking risks that no
real-life driver would. A real world driving style is developed by
taking a corner slowly and building speed until you _feel_ that you
couldn't take it faster without too much risk. We develop a style
exactly the reverse of that - hurl the car into a corner and crash
massively, then slow down progressively until we KNOW that we are
taking that corner as fast as we can with that setup. Of course the
resultant speeds and styles will be different.
Unless a sim can address the above somehow (and even more difficult,
still be saleable) I don't think we can ever be fast in the same way
the real drivers were/are. I used to be ***y quick around Bristol in
an Indycar, but I doubt any real world driver would ever risk his life
in the oversteering twitchy car I used to do it.
As far as I can see the cars are already smooth, it's just the lines
taken that are different. FF would be really nice to have, but not
necessary in order to be smooth.
Sims are supposed to make money - that means it has to be about
gameplay. Focussing on realism alone could well guarantee a perfectly
accurate flop.
I disagree. I don't think anyone _would_ do that in real life, but
certainly people could. It's respect for life and limb that precludes
it. Look at Dave's 3:17 at Spa - how many times did he virtually die
before he achieved that? Even in a race I attack Masta at 170mph+ all
the way through - damned if I would do that if there was a chance I
would kill myself. Gilles Villeneuve once described qualifying - if
you need a fast time in the closing seconds of qualifying sometimes
you shut out the fear and push the boundaries of what you and the car
are capable of, and accept this huge risk. The real drivers know there
is a level of performance beyond what they are comfortably prepared to
reach for - we drive in this "forbidden zone" all the time.
I've always disliked this aspect of sim-racing since it brings
everything back to time - if you are prepared to try over, and over,
and over you will eventually set a totally unfeasible time. Not an
impossible time, because the physics of the car in both real world and
sim can achieve it. But an unrealistic time nevertheless, because no
driver would take the Masta Kink sideways, tyres smoking at 170mph+ as
I often see Achim Trensz doing! :-)
Cheers!
John
>I looked at the replay and it's a GREAT bit of driving, I mean that
>sincerely, but it's also the perfect example of looking nothing like the AI.
>DmndDave
I'd say it's a lot closer than most of the hotlaps you see(or attempt!). It's
much smoother and closer to the "true" line. It is, however, considerably
quicker. Think "qualifying lap" vs. "race laps". Watching the AI drivers in
race mode, they are indeed much more conservative. They know the tracks pretty
well, I think, but they DON'T know about "shift-R"! I can think of a few times
when that would have been handy in real life....would've saved me money on
plaster. How would Clark (or Senna) have gone if he'd had a reset key? I guess
we'd be able to ask him, huh? Too bad the FIA outlawed 'em.
Steve B.
End Thought: I wonder what the AI drivers would look like if you dialed their
speed up to DM's level? I'll have to give that one a whirl sometime.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> <snip> > % Can they follow the lines, be as smooth as the AI, AND still match the AI's > % lap times, especially in qualifying? Can they do it lap after lap? I would > <snip> > Also, one must realize that the AI are driving with the feedback of all > of the senses us humans are missing in the sim....Did you make that up, or were you paraphrasing the collective works of
Moss, Lauda, Prost, et al? I read their autobiographies, not critically
mind you, and missed all of that.
Michael.
...
Quoted text (9 lines)
> ... Surely then the best drivers would be expected to > drive like you imagine Clark and Hill would if they were unfussed by > trifling details like staying alive? > That seems to be what we see from the Achim Trensz's, Doug Arnao's and > Dave Mansell's of the world - fast, smooth, but taking risks that no > real-life driver would. A real world driving style is developed by > taking a corner slowly and building speed until you _feel_ that you > couldn't take it faster without too much risk. We develop a styleNo, I was writing from my own experiences chatting with other racers.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (15 lines)
> Fact is that this is the best simulator that has been made for the PC market > (there might be others for other OS's but I doubt it). That said, it takes > skill. Further, it would help if you were competent in a real race car. Some > have said the game is too hard...how many of these folks have ever tried to > race? Or even just *driven* a race car? (there is a *big* difference) Driving > a race car at reasonable speeds *is* hard, and racing the thing is *very > hard*. > The game is *not* too hard, it is realistic. For those that don't appreciate > it, go drive a brainless (no-real-skill-needed) game that you can drive using > the keyboard. This game is certainly not for everyone....but then again > neither is racing! > Use the game to practice up on your car control skills, and remember if you > can't handle a *simulator* then don't try the stuff on the road/track!says...
Gee Mr. Gurney. I didn't know you monitored this newsgroup...
Oooooh - that many...
As long as it's on a Playstation...
Gee, I don't know. The cars were actually designed to be "realistic",
not "twitchy". Perfect? Who the hell really knows. Most of us are
barely old enough to remember 1967, much less Grand prix race cars. And
I'd be willing lay big money on the bet than NOBODY here has any real
honest-to-god seat time in one of these cars to be able to comment.
Ferrari is *the* car at Nurburgring. Lotus is too tough on me - give me
an Eagle any time.
These cars were considered state-of-the-art in their day. Also, starting
in 1968, the began putting front wings and rear spoilers on them to get
them to handle the tremendous horsepower they carried around - probably
because the cars were such a handful without any aero enhancements.
If you lack the ability to drive the faster cars, maybe you should stick
with a Coventry or BRM an the Novice trainer level, and leave the real
men with the faster stuff...
Putz...
--
=========================================================
John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12)
http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html
John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector
http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html
If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's
shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================
Quoted text (15 lines)
>>Fact is that this is the best simulator that has been made >>for the PC market (there might be others for other OS's >>but I doubt it). That said, it takes skill. Further, it >>would help if you were competent in a real race car. Some >>have said the game is too hard...how many of these folks >>have ever tried to race? Or even just *driven* a race car? >>(there is a *big* difference) Driving a race car at >>reasonable speeds *is* hard, and racing the thing is *very >> hard*. >> snippage >this is horseshit! some of the goddam cars do not handle >well in GPL - PERIOD. they ARE too twitchy and they ARE >too unforgiving. this is a fact.Quoted text (40 lines)
> > Fact is that this is the best simulator that has been made for the PC market > > (there might be others for other OS's but I doubt it). That said, it takes > > skill. Further, it would help if you were competent in a real race car. Some > > have said the game is too hard...how many of these folks have ever tried to > > race? Or even just *driven* a race car? (there is a *big* difference) Driving > > a race car at reasonable speeds *is* hard, and racing the thing is *very > > hard*. > > The game is *not* too hard, it is realistic. For those that don't appreciate > > it, go drive a brainless (no-real-skill-needed) game that you can drive using > > the keyboard. This game is certainly not for everyone....but then again > > neither is racing! > > Use the game to practice up on your car control skills, and remember if you > > can't handle a *simulator* then don't try the stuff on the road/track! > this is horseshit! some of the goddam cars do not handle well in GPL - PERIOD. they > ARE too twitchy and they ARE too unforgiving. this is a fact. open our eyes and > notice all of the posts to this effect. i have done 100's of laps on this sim as > well as other sims. i can handle a SIM car just fine. the GPL cars were DESIGNED to > perform somewhat twitchy to simulate the real cars. this does not mean that they > are perfect, does it? in the real world, why would anybody drive a ferrari all over > the road if a lotus held a perfect driving line? not going to happen. > "but lord jay, this is the most accurate blah blah blah..." horseshit. IT IS NOT > REAL!!!! it does not mimic a real race car. it tries to come close, but fails > miserably in some respects. > "but lord jay, i've driven a real race car and blah blah blah..." horseshit. there > wouldn't be a single real-world driver who would volunteer to drive some of these > cars with the amount of spasticity in the handling the way it has been designed in > the computer simulation. a 1/8" turn of the handle makes you swing to the complete > opposite side of the track? c'mon, fellas. open your eyes. yes, GPL is much closer > than other simulations at attempting to mimic the true driving feel, but it is NOT > realistic. we will be scoffing at this sim in five years - hopefully. > "gee, lord jay, maybe you should try one of those arcady-type games that blah blah > blah..." bite me. your "holier-than-thou" small-dick posturing is getting > tiresome. > nutrasweet is simulated sugar, but i sure as hell can tell the difference. > INCOMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Jay,
It's a game. Get a life.
>> Fact is that this is the best simulator that has been made for the PC market
>> (there might be others for other OS's but I doubt it). That said, it takes
>> skill. Further, it would help if you were competent in a real race car. Some
>> have said the game is too hard...how many of these folks have ever tried to
>> race? Or even just *driven* a race car? (there is a *big* difference) Driving
>> a race car at reasonable speeds *is* hard, and racing the thing is *very
>> hard*.
>> The game is *not* too hard, it is realistic. For those that don't appreciate
>> it, go drive a brainless (no-real-skill-needed) game that you can drive using
>> the keyboard. This game is certainly not for everyone....but then again
>> neither is racing!
>> Use the game to practice up on your car control skills, and remember if you
>> can't handle a *simulator* then don't try the stuff on the road/track!
>this is horseshit! some of the goddam cars do not handle well in GPL - PERIOD. they
>ARE too twitchy and they ARE too unforgiving. this is a fact. open our eyes and
>notice all of the posts to this effect. i have done 100's of laps on this sim as
>well as other sims. i can handle a SIM car just fine. the GPL cars were DESIGNED to
>perform somewhat twitchy to simulate the real cars. this does not mean that they
>are perfect, does it? in the real world, why would anybody drive a ferrari all over
>the road if a lotus held a perfect driving line? not going to happen.
>"but lord jay, this is the most accurate blah blah blah..." horseshit. IT IS NOT
>REAL!!!! it does not mimic a real race car. it tries to come close, but fails
>miserably in some respects.
>"but lord jay, i've driven a real race car and blah blah blah..." horseshit. there
>wouldn't be a single real-world driver who would volunteer to drive some of these
>cars with the amount of spasticity in the handling the way it has been designed in
>the computer simulation. a 1/8" turn of the handle makes you swing to the complete
>opposite side of the track? c'mon, fellas. open your eyes. yes, GPL is much closer
>than other simulations at attempting to mimic the true driving feel, but it is NOT
>realistic. we will be scoffing at this sim in five years - hopefully.
>"gee, lord jay, maybe you should try one of those arcady-type games that blah blah
>blah..." bite me. your "holier-than-thou" small-dick posturing is getting
>tiresome.
>nutrasweet is simulated sugar, but i sure as hell can tell the difference.
>INCOMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You replied to "Lord Jay's" post:
Nicely put. Sounds like you actually realize that this is a game! Not
something to kill your neighbors over. I object to Jay's previous visceral
posting and his spleen venting.
-Kevin
> Jay,
> It's a game. Get a life.
my point exactly. some of these bozos are treating this like a religion or
something. it's some sort of***-measuring tool instead a racing simulator
game.
"i don't need to use a real blender, man. i have Blenderizer 2000 on CD-Rom.
it's in 3D and dices, splices and chops virtual radishes just like the real
thing. of course, i've never actually used a real blender, but i bet it would be
just like the Blenderizer 2000. thanks DorkCo for making my blrnderizing dreams
come true. i'm going to go puree some cabbage right now. i haven't even
attempted the carrots yet!"
for the record, in***-measuring terms, my 3:51 best at Spa definitely suggests
that i begin perusing the backs of men's magazines for a..."solution". ; -
)
j
Quoted text (8 lines)
> >bite me. your "holier-than-thou" small-dick posturing is getting > >tiresome. > If you lack the ability to drive the faster cars, maybe you should stick > with a Coventry or BRM an the Novice trainer level, and leave the real > men with the faster stuff... > Putz...Quoted text (9 lines)
> On Tue, 06 Oct 1998 19:52:27 -0700, > > some of these bozos are treating this like a religion or > >something. it's some sort of***-measuring tool instead a racing simulator > >game. > Too tough for ya, Jay?I've been sim racing since before Indianapolis 500 the Simulation and
GPL is the first sim product where I can actually drive consistent and
fast. It's the first sim that I have been able to tweak the setup and
see dramitic results. Last night I broke 1:30 at Monza and all I was
trying to do was better my approach to the Parabolica. I couldn't do
this with ICRI/II, NASCARI/II, GP1/2, or F1RS. While I could get decent
times, I always found it difficult to achieve top times and be
consistent. If GPL is too damn hard, Hallujah!
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>this is horseshit! some of the goddam cars do not handle well in GPL - PERIOD. they
>ARE too twitchy and they ARE too unforgiving. this is a fact. open our eyes and
>notice all of the posts to this effect. i have done 100's of laps on this sim as
>well as other sims. i can handle a SIM car just fine. the GPL cars were DESIGNED to
what a stupid piece of shit you are sir..
1967 GP cars handled EXACTLY like they do in GPL.. you think you know better
than 14+ engineers +all the others involved ? pfffffft
100's of laps you say.. err going 100m , crashing resetting and doing that
over and over DOES NOT COUNT ***HEAD.. the tyres of 67 lasted on average
2-3 RACES.. thats 5 or 6 hours of torture.. so try going easy for 3 minutes
at the startand you'll see the grip pick up dramatically.
THE POINT IS JUST THAT.. ITS REALISTIC..
you obviously have no idea of what the drivers of the time were up against..
you don't deserve GPL
Anyone for multiplay.. cant wait for the VROC
I don't know why but I have to reply to this non-sense... here we go :
Jay Wolfe wrote
And that's how they were in reality. This is the highest form of racing
possible (Formula1) and you had the best drivers in the world. Of course, we
aren't the best drivers in the world, and I trully understand that people
like you don't have the racing abilities or knowledge to drive this type of
car.
Hmmm... it applies to every racing series presently. Why would
Tyrell/Minardi and so teams uses their chassis/motor if a McLaren held a
perfect driving line?
In what respect can you please tell us ? Oh of course, you probably master
the knowledge of racing physics and so... Im awaiting for your explanation
Could I include those 20 drivers who risked their lives (and some perished)
during the 1967 year ?
There's setups adjustments for that. Oh and remember.... your wheel is quite
smaller than the wooden/metal they had at that era. *plonk*
Ah....
If --> no more arguments
Than --> use flaming
- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--
I too have done hundreds of laps but somehow _can_ manage to handle
the GPL cars just fine.
Could it be because the Ferrari _was_ like that but these guys had
this "contract" thing which meant they couldn't quit back to the menu
and load themselves up a Lotus? If you make the Ferrari like the Lotus
you lose all diversity and it's no longer realistic. You want Lotus
performance, drive a Lotus.
Or you could open your garage screen and do what the real drivers do -
adjust the car so it doesn't do that.
It is not real but it _is_ realistic.
Implying you expected to be able to detect no difference between GPL
and the real world? That takes optimism to new levels. If you want to
*** about something then have something to say. GPL isn't perfect?
Gee, I guess no-one noticed that. It's not exactly real world? Well I
never. You can tell the difference between it and the real world
despite it being the best sim yet? What a surprise.
Isn't possible to just enjoy it without trolling furiously?
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (7 lines)
> I don't know why but I have to reply to this non-sense... here we go : > Jay Wolfe wrote > >this is horseshit! some of the goddam cars do not handle well in GPL - > PERIOD. they > >ARE too twitchy and they ARE too unforgiving.And that's how they were in > reality.Scientist? How should we read that, "Domestic scientist" maybe? I
presume your degree course didn't include spelling or even basic
punctuation and capitalisation?
Seriously though, your argument should be sound enough to actually
stand up on it's own. When you start resorting to "I'm telling you I'm
a scientist so you have to believe me" it looks a bit transparent.
Cheers!
John
That's just not in Dave's nature.
I have no doubt that he could, but if you've ever been in an auto with
Dave or seen him driving, you'll know that he appreciates judicious
use of excess yaw. :-)
---Jim
> You've just answered your own problem. Handling a "sim car" is very
> different to handling a "simulated car". Judging GPL by what you know from
> previous sims is not particularly valid.
> btw - the Ferrari is great round Monaco!
i'm with you! nothing like slamming the red beast into a crowd. i prefer blazing around
Spa to maximize the whine. VROOOM!
> but, what do i know. i'm just a degreed scientist and former professional
> athlete (READ: superior hand/eye coordination).
Yeah, yeah... but how big is your***?
Trips
Quoted text (10 lines)
>> >bite me. your "holier-than-thou" small-dick posturing is getting >> >tiresome. >> If you lack the ability to drive the faster cars, maybe you should stick >> with a Coventry or BRM an the Novice trainer level, and leave the real >> men with the faster stuff... >> Putz... >ha ha ha! thanks for proving my point so well! you crack me up.> > but, what do i know. i'm just a degreed scientist and former professional
> > athlete (READ: superior hand/eye coordination).
> Yeah, yeah... but how big is your***?
why, trips, you silly boy. my johnson is short enough that i will be racing the
200HP car as soon as i can transfer the GP sounds to them. sigh. at least my
willie provides me with superior wind resistance. ; - )
is your real name "Horace Caulk"?
Quoted text (7 lines)
> too far. how can i say "too far"? simple. the volume of complaints in this > respect are testimony. i can handle "poor handling" just like the next guy, but > it is rediculous to think that a car would swerve completely from one side of > the track to the other. and many others also believe this. "hey, we have to > make these simulated cars appear as though they are tough to handle. let's make > them swerve at high RPM's, maybe that will work." papyrus missed the mark on > this one.Quoted text (11 lines)
> fortunately, it doesn't take a physicist to see the problems inherent in the > simulation. can you say "program flaw"? take a look at all of the post > regarding the overly poor handling. the compu-geeks at papyrus were obviously > trying to simulate poor-handling (since this is what was told to them) and went > too far. how can i say "too far"? simple. the volume of complaints in this > respect are testimony. i can handle "poor handling" just like the next guy, but > it is rediculous to think that a car would swerve completely from one side of > the track to the other. and many others also believe this. "hey, we have to > make these simulated cars appear as though they are tough to handle. let's make > them swerve at high RPM's, maybe that will work." papyrus missed the mark on > this one.Quoted text (10 lines)
> > > but, what do i know. i'm just a degreed scientist and former professional > > > athlete (READ: superior hand/eye coordination). > > Yeah, yeah... but how big is your***? > why, trips, you silly boy. my johnson is short enough that i will be racing the > 200HP car as soon as i can transfer the GP sounds to them. sigh. at least my > willie provides me with superior wind resistance. ; - ) > is your real name "Horace Caulk"?> Anyway, sounds like maybe you've fallen into the MS joystick setup/driver black hole.
> Use the generic calibration from within GPL's options and try again! Setup issues can lead
> to what your talking about also. And a lack of patience, hehehehehehehe. Having come close
> to mastering all ICR2 tracks, I felt like a rookie when I first began with GPL! How a true
> rookie would feel boggles the mind!
thanks for not bashing me TOO hard, byron. winky-wink. i would put it down to a possible
calibration problem, but the stability of a couple of the cars is in the manageable range. i
will, however, use scientific methodology and reset, retest and reinstall to rule out each
factor. i still maintain that the amount of negative feedback generated so far from others
supports a problem within the program itself. i'm not the only one - just the rudest.
by the way, i tried to stop buffing the german helmet for a few laps and actually drive with
both hands. that seemed to really help matters quite a bit.
Hell, my little Honda Accord has enough torque steer take to me from one side of the road to the
other under wide-open throttle-- if I let it. You can drive the GPL cars wide open all the time
like you could in other sims, you have to anticipate and compensate, and just generally back off
a little, to get reliable handling. Which, IMHO, is totally realistic.
Oh, and btw, I don't think the people who are posting lap times are trying to show how big their
***s are, I think they are trying to demonstrate that people can sort out the handling of these
cars. You made the proposition, don't criticize them for trying to refute it.
Ed Benson
Quoted text (13 lines)
> > Anyway, sounds like maybe you've fallen into the MS joystick setup/driver black hole. > > Use the generic calibration from within GPL's options and try again! Setup issues can lead > > to what your talking about also. And a lack of patience, hehehehehehehe. Having come close > > to mastering all ICR2 tracks, I felt like a rookie when I first began with GPL! How a true > > rookie would feel boggles the mind! > thanks for not bashing me TOO hard, byron. winky-wink. i would put it down to a possible > calibration problem, but the stability of a couple of the cars is in the manageable range. i > will, however, use scientific methodology and reset, retest and reinstall to rule out each > factor. i still maintain that the amount of negative feedback generated so far from others > supports a problem within the program itself. i'm not the only one - just the rudest. > by the way, i tried to stop buffing the german helmet for a few laps and actually drive with > both hands. that seemed to really help matters quite a bit.Whhops, that should have been, "You can't drive..."
Ed
You can drive the GPL cars wide open all the time
Sounds to me like he has a nine inch personality!
--
John Twitchell
>> but, what do i know. i'm just a degreed scientist and former professional
>> athlete (READ: superior hand/eye coordination).
>Yeah, yeah... but how big is your***?
>Trips
I think its fair to say that: Jay is a ***.
