GPL: Worst fears confirmed. It doesn't work

I bought GPL yesterday and installed it, filled with trepidation because the demos didn't work at all for me. My worst fears were confirmed. It doesn't work. Well, let me put it this way: it doesn't USUALLY work. Let me explain. First here are my system specs: P166 128mb RAM Monster 1 ACM Game Card Thrustmaster T1 AWE64 Value Win98 I installed GPL. It came up fine. I calibrated my wheel (Direct Input was the default for me). I turned down some detail (all mirror detail, clouds, crowds, Specular lighting, Dynamic lighting) and went to Training at Spa. I hit Alt-F and saw that my frames at Spa varied from 12 to 20 depending on my driving and where I was on the track. Despite that, it seemed smooth and I was liking it immensely. I drove for about an hour, trying different tracks, trying a race (frames dropped significantly here) etc and then shut down to do other things. I entered and reentered the game several times and drove for a while. Everything seemed cool and I was ecstatic. Then I had the game crash during a replay and I had to reboot. When I came back into GPL my frames were between 2 and 4 and I couldn't drive the car at all. Curiously, when I would go into the grass or onto the side of the track my FR would jump to 12-17. When I would reenter the track, all be messed up again. Another strange thing was that, even though my FR was abysmal while driving, my replays would be silky smooth as well as any of the other Saved Replays that came with the game. That perplexed me. I turned the sounds down to 3, I turned more detail off but nothing would affect it. When the game was paused the FR would read 30fps but as soon as I started driving the FR dove for the ba***t again. Then, I recalibrated my wheel in Generic mode and my frame rate jumped back to where it was when I installed. Yea! I though. Not. When I reentered the game again, the frame rate was 2-3 again. I thought it might be my controller. I unplugged it and tried a generic joystick. Same problem. I thought it might be my game card. I ripped it out, and plugged my wheel into my sound card. Same problem. I thought it might be joysticks in general, so I removed them all and reconfigured to use the keyboard. Same problem. It seems to be some sort of internal-to-the-sim clock timing problem but I have no answers as to how to fix it. At this point, about every 15-20th time I go into the game, I can run it with acceptable frame rate (yes, I have been patient...) but it does not seem to be based on any action on my part and I am giving up. I don't think I have anticipated the release of any sim more than this one and not being able to run has gotten me very, very bummed out. Please help!!! Jeff

Jeff- Just a wild guess, but have you tried the latest drivers for your Monster video card? Also, you might try removing the sound card temporarily to see if that makes any difference. Also, if you are using a nonstandard mouse driver, try de-installing the driver temporarily to see if that helps. Before you do anything, ensure you have at least 256k of L2 cache. Two other things to try, if you are willing to spend some money on hardware that will make GPL run better, assuming you are able to get it to work on your machine: 1. A faster CPU. P-233's and K6-233's are quite inexpensive these days, and these should make a noticeable improvement in GPL's frame rate over your P-166. It's also conceivable that the P-166 is running just slow enough that some kind of thrashing is getting started, and a faster CPU might cure this. 2. An 8 mb Hercules Thriller. The Rendition architecture is much more efficent in terms of CPU utilization than the Voodoo, so a Thriller will offload the CPU and let it concentrate more on the physics. If, by chance, some kind of thrashing is going on, the Thriller might help eliminate it. Check my GP Hardware FAQ for more info on hardware: http://www.simracing.com/~alison/gpl/ [address restored] Alison On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:34:15 GMT, Jeffrey Hunsberger

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>I bought GPL yesterday and installed it, filled with trepidation because >the demos didn't work at all for me. My worst fears were confirmed. It >doesn't work. Well, let me put it this way: it doesn't USUALLY work. >Let me explain. First here are my system specs: >P166 >128mb RAM >Monster 1 >ACM Game Card >Thrustmaster T1 >AWE64 Value >Win98 >I installed GPL. It came up fine. I calibrated my wheel (Direct Input was >the default for me). I turned down some detail (all mirror detail, >clouds, crowds, Specular lighting, Dynamic lighting) and went to Training >at Spa. I hit Alt-F and saw that my frames at Spa varied from 12 to 20 >depending on my driving and where I was on the track. Despite that, it >seemed smooth and I was liking it immensely. I drove for about an hour, >trying different tracks, trying a race (frames dropped significantly here) >etc and then shut down to do other things. I entered and reentered the >game several times and drove for a while. Everything seemed cool and I was >ecstatic. >Then I had the game crash during a replay and I had to reboot. When I >came back into GPL my frames were between 2 and 4 and I couldn't drive the >car at all. Curiously, when I would go into the grass or onto the side of >the track my FR would jump to 12-17. When I would reenter the track, all >be messed up again. Another strange thing was that, even though my FR was >abysmal while driving, my replays would be silky smooth as well as any of >the other Saved Replays that came with the game. That perplexed me. I >turned the sounds down to 3, I turned more detail off but nothing would >affect it. When the game was paused the FR would read 30fps but as soon >as I started driving the FR dove for the ba***t again. >Then, I recalibrated my wheel in Generic mode and my frame rate jumped >back to where it was when I installed. Yea! I though. Not. When I >reentered the game again, the frame rate was 2-3 again. >I thought it might be my controller. I unplugged it and tried a generic >joystick. Same problem. I thought it might be my game card. I ripped >it out, and plugged my wheel into my sound card. Same problem. I thought >it might be joysticks in general, so I removed them all and reconfigured >to use the keyboard. Same problem. >It seems to be some sort of internal-to-the-sim clock timing problem but I >have no answers as to how to fix it. >At this point, about every 15-20th time I go into the game, I can run it >with acceptable frame rate (yes, I have been patient...) but it does not >seem to be based on any action on my part and I am giving up. I don't >think I have anticipated the release of any sim more than this one and not >being able to run has gotten me very, very bummed out. Please help!!! >Jeff

Alison

Have you tried a fresh reinstall of the game? - Eric

<snipped> Perhaps I overlooked it but I saw no mention that you ever tried RE-installing the game itself. Also DirectX 6 plays a crucial part and that may need re-installing. If it worked once then you know it's not a hardware problem.

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>At this point, about every 15-20th time I go into the game, I can run it >with acceptable frame rate (yes, I have been patient...) but it does not >seem to be based on any action on my part and I am giving up. I don't >think I have anticipated the release of any sim more than this one and not >being able to run has gotten me very, very bummed out. Please help!!! >Jeff

: Jeff- : Just a wild guess, but have you tried the latest drivers for your : Monster video card? Also, you might try removing the sound card : temporarily to see if that makes any difference. Also, if you are using : a nonstandard mouse driver, try de-installing the driver temporarily to : see if that helps. Before you do anything, ensure you have at least : 256k of L2 cache. Thanks for the help. I got the latest Monster drivers in anticipation of this release. As far as the sound card goes: if I run it without the soundcard and it still does it, where does it leave me? Every other game I own works perfectly with it. The mouse driver is standard. I believe I do have the required amount of L2 cache. I will try as others suggested and reinstall but I don't think it will help. It really seems to be some sort of "clock crash" internal to the game. Sometimes it gets setup correctly, sometimes not... : Two other things to try, if you are willing to spend some money on : hardware that will make GPL run better, assuming you are able to get it : to work on your machine: I plan on buying a new computer sometime soon. A G6-450 from Gateway. That should solve the problems, but i want to race until that day comes! It is such a tease to be able to run it one minute and not the next. : 2. An 8 mb Hercules Thriller. The Rendition architecture is much more : efficent in terms of CPU utilization than the Voodoo, so a Thriller will : offload the CPU and let it concentrate more on the physics. If, by : chance, some kind of thrashing is going on, the Thriller might help : eliminate it. Do these cards do 2d as well? Thanks again, Jeff

On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 15:44:37 GMT, Jeffrey Hunsberger

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>: 2. An 8 mb Hercules Thriller. The Rendition architecture is much more >: efficent in terms of CPU utilization than the Voodoo, so a Thriller will >: offload the CPU and let it concentrate more on the physics. If, by >: chance, some kind of thrashing is going on, the Thriller might help >: eliminate it. >Do these cards do 2d as well?

Yes. They replace your regular 2D card. Alison Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. http://www.nh,ultranet.com/~alison

Take 64mb of RAM out of your system. Most, if not all, motherboards that one would have with a Pentium 166 are only capable of caching the first 64mb of physical RAM in the system. GPL has no control over where its different components are placed in physical memory. If anything important (like the compiled physics code, or DirectSound's software mixing code, or sound samples, or the AI code, or ... etc.) happen to be placed above the first 64mb of physical memory, access to this information by the processor will be extremely slow. This explains why sometimes the game runs OK (most of the important stuff happened to be placed in the first 64mb), and why sometimes it basically doesn't run at all (most of the important stuff happened to be placed above the first 64mb). Once you've reduced the amount of memory in your computer so that it can all be cached, you will have much more consistent performance. Randy

: Take 64mb of RAM out of your system. Most, if not all, motherboards that : one would have with a Pentium 166 are only capable of caching the first : 64mb of physical RAM in the system. : GPL has no control over where its different components are placed in : physical memory. If anything important (like the compiled physics code, or : DirectSound's software mixing code, or sound samples, or the AI code, or : ... etc.) happen to be placed above the first 64mb of physical memory, : access to this information by the processor will be extremely slow. This : explains why sometimes the game runs OK (most of the important stuff : happened to be placed in the first 64mb), and why sometimes it basically : doesn't run at all (most of the important stuff happened to be placed above : the first 64mb). Once you've reduced the amount of memory in your computer : so that it can all be cached, you will have much more consistent : performance. : Randy Randy, Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I will try this out when I get home. That sounds like the answer I needed. I had no idea there was a cache limitation on the MB. I will rip that RAM out right away and give it a shot. Thanks a million, Jeff

It all depends on the chipset that the MB uses. The 82430FX, 82430VX, and even the newer (relatively speaking) 82430TX chipset can all only cache 64MB of RAM. The 82430HX chipset (with the proper tag RAM) can cache up to 512MB. You don't mention the brand of system or if you built it yourself from parts, but most store bought 166's will likely be using the FX or VX chipsets. - Eric

Another strange thing was that, even though my FR was It isnt strange :o) It will happen to all. The reason why it is smooth is because most of the frames (like 90%) are taken away by the physics engine, not the graphics. You'll find that you can run it in 512x384 and 800x600 with little frame difference. But put 5 cars on the track and boom. The reason the replays are faster is because all the com[puter is doing is reading where the cars are, and what there doing. It doesnt have to calculate the physics of what effect the fly stuck on your right front wheel will do to you at 180mph. So bascially the replay feature doesnt use the main physics engine, which is the FR sucker. Happy ta help :) Juju

Hi Jeff, I know you said it failed without the soundcard; however, there is a SB AWE64 patch for Win95/98. Check the Creative Labs site: http://www.soundblaster.com/asp-scripts/download.asp?file=/creative/d... Wow! They put a new driver up today -- Oct 1st. Jason.

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> : Jeff- > : Just a wild guess, but have you tried the latest drivers for your > : Monster video card? Also, you might try removing the sound card > : temporarily to see if that makes any difference. Also, if you are using > : a nonstandard mouse driver, try de-installing the driver temporarily to > : see if that helps. Before you do anything, ensure you have at least > : 256k of L2 cache. > Thanks for the help. I got the latest Monster drivers in anticipation of > this release. As far as the sound card goes: if I run it without the > soundcard and it still does it, where does it leave me? Every other game > I own works perfectly with it. The mouse driver is standard. I believe I > do have the required amount of L2 cache. > I will try as others suggested and reinstall but I don't think it will > help. It really seems to be some sort of "clock crash" internal to the > game. Sometimes it gets setup correctly, sometimes not... > : Two other things to try, if you are willing to spend some money on > : hardware that will make GPL run better, assuming you are able to get it > : to work on your machine: > I plan on buying a new computer sometime soon. A G6-450 from Gateway. > That should solve the problems, but i want to race until that day comes! > It is such a tease to be able to run it one minute and not the next. > : 2. An 8 mb Hercules Thriller. The Rendition architecture is much more > : efficent in terms of CPU utilization than the Voodoo, so a Thriller will > : offload the CPU and let it concentrate more on the physics. If, by > : chance, some kind of thrashing is going on, the Thriller might help > : eliminate it. > Do these cards do 2d as well? > Thanks again, > Jeff

-- -------- Jason Monds (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

I took out the 64mb and now has a very steady and consistent frame rate. I get between 12-22 frames depending on traffic or how many trees I am currently flattening. I was even getting the same FR's with 5 other cars on the track which was great. I could watch them drive into distance while I spun... ;-) Thanks A LOT for your help. I can now enjoy this sim! NOW I have another problem however. After removing the 64mbRAM, the Replays crash and crash often, dumping me back to the desktop. It can be on long or short replays, or replays just playing in the little window after you exit the driving screen. It even crashes now during the saved replays that come with the game, which it didn't do last night. It doesn't crash EVERY time but it crashes about 80% of the time. I reinstalled the game in case something got screwed up with the previous problem but it still happens. I rebooted a couple of times in case something was*** around in memory but no dice. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

Is your memory SIMMs or DIMMs? How many and what sizes are they? Did you try swapping out the RAM you removed with the RAM that is still in the system? Have you tried installing it into the now vacant sockets? - Eric

>Is your memory SIMMs or DIMMs? How many and what sizes are they? Did >you try swapping out the RAM you removed with the RAM that is still in >the system? Have you tried installing it into the now vacant sockets? >- Eric That was the ticket. I swapped SIMM bays as you suggested. I just ran a race and watched the replay (see my latest post/race report) and it DIDN'T Crash! w00h00! Thanks, man. I didn't even think of doing that. Good thinkin' Thanks, Jeff

On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:34:15 GMT, Jeffrey Hunsberger >Then I had the game crash during a replay and I had to reboot. Mine crashes EVERY time I try to view a replay at 1024x768, requiring a reboot. I can drive or race at this resolution with no trouble, so that's odd. The replay WORKS fine at 800x600, just doesn't LOOK as fine. No troubles with FPS at any resolution, considering my equipment; generally 30's hotlapping and mid to upper 20's racing with 10 comp. cars, less at the start, of course. That's on a 200mmx, 32MB EDO Ram, 8MB Monster II, Ensoniq AudioPCI, new drivers all 'round. Haven't driven any but the Lotus yet, but has anyone noticed their sound being really gravelly? Mine's got a lot of static-like noise; really ***-sounding, and no - it's not the wind noise. The sound drops out entirely at times when braking and downshifting. Not just the engine, but the wind and everything - silence, if only for a moment. Kind of annoying. It seems unaffected by the # of sounds chosen; already tried that. Still light-years ahead of any other sim, though, and better than the demo led me to expect. Great job. Steve Blankenship

Oddly mine too crashes at higher RES REPLAYS ! But I found to get out without resetting is to click the top left button for the replay to roll to start of tape (only button actually that you can push as all the rest are locked up !!) then as soon as the tape is at the start press ESC quickly ...boot out you go. Other than that WOW...AMAZING....LOVE IT!!! PII 300 128 SDRAM Diamond V2-12 meg Win95 36 FPS except at race start (from the middle to back) mid 20's.......after a lap or two rates go back to 36. I've done about 100 laps at silverstone and I cannot seem to do better than 1:34:30 2 seconds off Hill's pace....do I suck ?????

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> On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:34:15 GMT, Jeffrey Hunsberger > >Then I had the game crash during a replay and I had to reboot. > Mine crashes EVERY time I try to view a replay at 1024x768, requiring a > reboot. I can drive or race at this resolution with no trouble, so that's odd. > The replay WORKS fine at 800x600, just doesn't LOOK as fine. No troubles with > FPS at any resolution, considering my equipment; generally 30's hotlapping and > mid to upper 20's racing with 10 comp. cars, less at the start, of course. > That's on a 200mmx, 32MB EDO Ram, 8MB Monster II, Ensoniq AudioPCI, new drivers > all 'round. > Haven't driven any but the Lotus yet, but has anyone noticed their sound > being really gravelly? Mine's got a lot of static-like noise; really > ***-sounding, and no - it's not the wind noise. The sound drops out entirely > at times when braking and downshifting. Not just the engine, but the wind and > everything - silence, if only for a moment. Kind of annoying. It seems > unaffected by the # of sounds chosen; already tried that. > Still light-years ahead of any other sim, though, and better than the demo > led me to expect. Great job. > Steve Blankenship

try using only 64 meg of RAM. Some pentiums can't handle more than that anyway.

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>I bought GPL yesterday and installed it, filled with trepidation because >the demos didn't work at all for me. My worst fears were confirmed. It >doesn't work. Well, let me put it this way: it doesn't USUALLY work. >Let me explain. First here are my system specs: >P166 >128mb RAM >Monster 1 >ACM Game Card >Thrustmaster T1 >AWE64 Value >Win98 >I installed GPL. It came up fine. I calibrated my wheel (Direct Input was >the default for me). I turned down some detail (all mirror detail, >clouds, crowds, Specular lighting, Dynamic lighting) and went to Training >at Spa. I hit Alt-F and saw that my frames at Spa varied from 12 to 20 >depending on my driving and where I was on the track. Despite that, it >seemed smooth and I was liking it immensely. I drove for about an hour, >trying different tracks, trying a race (frames dropped significantly here) >etc and then shut down to do other things. I entered and reentered the >game several times and drove for a while. Everything seemed cool and I was >ecstatic. >Then I had the game crash during a replay and I had to reboot. When I >came back into GPL my frames were between 2 and 4 and I couldn't drive the >car at all. Curiously, when I would go into the grass or onto the side of >the track my FR would jump to 12-17. When I would reenter the track, all >be messed up again. Another strange thing was that, even though my FR was >abysmal while driving, my replays would be silky smooth as well as any of >the other Saved Replays that came with the game. That perplexed me. I >turned the sounds down to 3, I turned more detail off but nothing would >affect it. When the game was paused the FR would read 30fps but as soon >as I started driving the FR dove for the ba***t again. >Then, I recalibrated my wheel in Generic mode and my frame rate jumped >back to where it was when I installed. Yea! I though. Not. When I >reentered the game again, the frame rate was 2-3 again. >I thought it might be my controller. I unplugged it and tried a generic >joystick. Same problem. I thought it might be my game card. I ripped >it out, and plugged my wheel into my sound card. Same problem. I thought >it might be joysticks in general, so I removed them all and reconfigured >to use the keyboard. Same problem. >It seems to be some sort of internal-to-the-sim clock timing problem but I >have no answers as to how to fix it. >At this point, about every 15-20th time I go into the game, I can run it >with acceptable frame rate (yes, I have been patient...) but it does not >seem to be based on any action on my part and I am giving up. I don't >think I have anticipated the release of any sim more than this one and not >being able to run has gotten me very, very bummed out. Please help!!! >Jeff

>try using only 64 meg of RAM. Some pentiums can't handle more than that >anyway. <snip> Yes, Big Dog. Randy Cassidy posted this as well. It solved the problem, it seems. I still have random crashes in GPL, usually in Replay mode or sometimes in race practice. It is intermittent but extremely annoying. The frame rate thing has been cured however! THanks, J>