What in the HELL?

How could they have made GPL such a computer hog? All I want to do is run full field races, and eventually start a full season.....but my FPS are HORRIBLE. I have a P200 with a Voodoo2 12mb card, and I average 5-6 fps at the starting line and about 12-18 while racing. If I dare scrape the side-rails or get a little into the grass, my FPS drops to 6-7. Unbelievable! I have ALL GRAPHICS OPTIONS unchecked, and I'm running it in 640x480. The friggin track looks like a blocky pixel-fest now, but hey, can I run at acceptable framerates now? NO!!! So even with the graphics turned off and everything looking like SHIT, it STILL is unacceptable to run full races. When I'm alone on the track, it's not too bad running at about 18 fps. But if I even try to pass someone, or vice-versa, it drops to around 10 or so. THIS IS WITH ALL GRAPHICS UNCHECKED! And dont even ask about the start of the race, I might as well count it as seconds per frame as opposed to frames per second. I mean how can you race this game for fun, if you can't even pass people? Isn't passing people part of racing? BTW, I have all graphics options unchecked and the game looks like pixelly, blocky crap. Thought I might add that again. I just couldnt wait to play this game, and experience the thrill of racing side-by-side with the legends of Grand Prix. But basically I ended up buying a $40.00 hot-lap simulator, as I can get upwards to 30 fps on hot-lap sessions. But even add any more then 5 or 6 cars to race against, and its unplayable. Oh, I know, I can race against 4 other cars for an hour, that will be fun!!! Too bad you have to have a P2-450 to race with all graphics on and a full field competition. Or has anyone with a P2-450 even tried that yet?.....it might be unplayable for them too. A great simulator, but hard to race at 10 fps. You would think with a P200 and a Voodoo2, that I would at least be able to run with ALL GRAPHICS OFF and a full field right??? Amazing. And they list the minimum system requirements as a P166. They didnt mention that with that P166, you would only be able to run hot-lap sessions. Anyone with the highest available computer on the market right now.....let us know if YOU can even run a full-field race with all the graphics on. Just curious. (and to think that games like F1RS you can get easily playable frame-rates, with better graphics then GPL) Is GPL's AI engine and physics engine so advanced, that it takes so much processing power to run it? Cya guys, I'm off to play my new Hot-Lap Simulator!!

Since it's the additional AI cars and not graphics options that cause the slow down your system I think you've answered your own question... - Eric

How much fun can it be when you can't race the AI cars? I exceed the minimum requirements to run the game.....or are those requirements (P166, etc.) just for navigating the menu system? How much fun can it be to race at 10 fps? >Since it's the additional AI cars and not graphics options that cause >the slow down your system I think you've answered your own question... >- Eric

Well, I hot-lapped all day long (at 30fps), then I *thought* I would be ready for my first race. So I was all psyched for my first race after a few hours of hot-lapping. That's when I found out that it can't be done. I'm sure most of you know the precision it takes to control these cars, and you just can't control the car at 10fps. I've gone back to hot-lapping for now. I love the 'Ring, it's like a nice Sunday drive in the country-side.....except at 150mph. =) I'm also pricing around for a new BX motherboard and P2 chip. You would at least think you could run HALF-field races with all graphics OFF on a P200 with a Voodoo2 card. Guess not. Oh well.

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>On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:41:49 -0400, >>How much fun can it be when you can't race the AI cars? I exceed the >>minimum requirements to run the game.....or are those requirements (P166, >>etc.) just for navigating the menu system? >>How much fun can it be to race at 10 fps? >Another way to look at it is, are you READY to actually race the field? >For me, I have a LOT of hotlapping to do before I am even close... >Try this. Set the field to 5 and race them. If they run off and hide >from you, then you also need some hot laps... :) >>>Since it's the additional AI cars and not graphics options that cause >>>the slow down your system I think you've answered your own question... >>>- Eric >-- >* rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com

Eric already posted that an hour ago. >Yep.

As per a previous thread, you can run at 800x600 with all graphics options and get the same fps as you get at 640x480 with nothing checked, fwiw. rob. <snip>

Would this be a good time to resume that thread about 'previewing' via warez? rob. <snip>

Buy an Abit BH6 motherboard and a Celeron 300A CPU. (this has 128k of of onboard secondary cache). Turn the buss speed up to 100 and you will have a high performing 450 mhz cpu at a fraction of the cost. I'd say your voodoo2 is sitting there with nothing to do right now. You don't have the cpu power to drive the card. I will post some benchmarks as I have both a thriller 3d and an SLI voodoo 2 setup. I have only run the Rendition graphics so far and I see 36 fps during practice with absolutely everything turned on at 800x600. Haven't run a race yet Jeff You would at

I was actually looking at the Abit BX6. I need the 3rd ISA slot (ACM game card, SB AWE64, and network card for cable modem). The BH6 only has 2 ISA slots. I was thinking along the same lines with the Celeron 300a though. =) Now I'm looking at 2d/3d cards to go with my Voodoo2.

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>>I'm also pricing around for a new BX motherboard and P2 chip. >Buy an Abit BH6 motherboard and a Celeron 300A CPU. (this has 128k of >of onboard secondary cache). Turn the buss speed up to 100 and you >will have a high performing 450 mhz cpu at a fraction of the cost. >I'd say your voodoo2 is sitting there with nothing to do right now. >You don't have the cpu power to drive the card. >I will post some benchmarks as I have both a thriller 3d and an SLI >voodoo 2 setup. I have only run the Rendition graphics so far and I >see 36 fps during practice with absolutely everything turned on at >800x600. Haven't run a race yet >Jeff >You would at >>least think you could run HALF-field races with all graphics OFF on a P200 >>with a Voodoo2 card. Guess not. Oh well.

At the very least I'd suggest upgrading to a PCI network card, but if you went with a PCI sound card you could ditch both the AWE64 as well as the ACM gamecard (most will have hardware acceleration for DirectInput). A system with no ISA devices will be a bit faster as well. - Eric though.

I know it would be faster.....but I just bought this AWE64 a month ago, and I hate to see the $99 bucks go to waste.

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>At the very least I'd suggest upgrading to a PCI network card, but if >you went with a PCI sound card you could ditch both the AWE64 as well as >the ACM gamecard (most will have hardware acceleration for DirectInput). >A system with no ISA devices will be a bit faster as well. >- Eric >>I was actually looking at the Abit BX6. I need the 3rd ISA slot (ACM >game >>card, SB AWE64, and network card for cable modem). The BH6 only has 2 >ISA >>slots. I was thinking along the same lines with the Celeron 300a >though.

Damn, really? Does Papy seriously think that we can have fun racing against 5 AI opponents for an hour? I mean, do they really think that? >What good is it to have super AI, when you can not race against any of them.

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>I have a PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2 and It still drop way down to less than >10 FPS with full field. What type of computer did they make this game on. >It must be something we can't get or else they knew the FPS sucked and >released it anyway. >>Would this be a good time to resume that thread about 'previewing' >>via warez? >>rob. >><snip> >>>not too bad running at about 18 fps. But if I even try to pass someone, >or >>>vice-versa, it drops to around 10 or so

And the cars still do wierd things like get stuck behind stopped cars (in a large crash, for example), and since they cant figure out how to back up and go around, they just withdraw... also, watch a AI car go around a really sharp hairpin (Monoco)... they cheat, watch closely and you'll see what I mean. Brian

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> On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:35:07 -0400, > >Is GPL's AI engine and physics engine so > >advanced, that it takes so much processing power to run it? > Yep. > -- > * rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com

What good is it to have super AI, when you can not race against any of them. I have a PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2 and It still drop way down to less than 10 FPS with full field. What type of computer did they make this game on. It must be something we can't get or else they knew the FPS sucked and released it anyway.

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>Would this be a good time to resume that thread about 'previewing' >via warez? >rob. ><snip> >>not too bad running at about 18 fps. But if I even try to pass someone,

or >>vice-versa, it drops to around 10 or so

You running with all graphics enabled?

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> What good is it to have super AI, when you can not race against any of them. > I have a PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2 and It still drop way down to less than > 10 FPS with full field. What type of computer did they make this game on. > It must be something we can't get or else they knew the FPS sucked and > released it anyway. > >Would this be a good time to resume that thread about 'previewing' > >via warez? > >rob. > ><snip> > >>not too bad running at about 18 fps. But if I even try to pass someone, > or > >>vice-versa, it drops to around 10 or so

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

> Eric already posted that an hour ago. You obviously have no idea how Usenet works, do you? ;^) l8er ronny > >Yep. -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Yes I am running with all the graphics on but changing the graphics options really have very little effect. I have a rendition card also (Stealth S220) but FPS seem better on Voodoo2. >You running with all graphics enabled? >> What good is it to have super AI, when you can not race against any of them. >> I have a PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2 and It still drop way down to less than >> 10 FPS with full field. What type of computer did they make this game on.

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>> It must be something we can't get or else they knew the FPS sucked and >> released it anyway. >> >Would this be a good time to resume that thread about 'previewing' >> >via warez? >> >rob. >> ><snip> >> >>not too bad running at about 18 fps. But if I even try to pass

someone,

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>> or >> >>vice-versa, it drops to around 10 or so >-- > Byron Forbes > Captain of Team Lightning Bolt > http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS > and > http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

This performance is considerably worse than I get with my AMD K6-200, which I run overclocked to 75x3=225. L2 cache is critical for running GPL on machines in this speed range. Have you checked to see if you have any? You've got to have at least 256k of L2 cache to get good performance with GPL (except on Celerons) and 512k is much better. Also, the terrific fill rate of your Voodoo 2 is wasted on a machine running at 200 mhz. Aside from the fill rate, the Voodoo architecture is not very efficient, and a Voodoo card places higher demands on CPU power than a Rendition card. Short of upgrading your CPU (and motherboard, if you haven't got any L2 cache), the most cost-effective hardware upgrade you can make is to purchase an 8 mb Hercules Thriller, which currently are available for under $140. If you can't afford the $300-400 that it would take to upgrade to a Celeron and Slot 1 motherboard, you might look into a faster processor, such as an AMD K6-2-300, or a Pentium 266, or even a 233, which are quite inexpensive these days. Also, some motherboards allow overclocking the bus, which increases the speed at which the critical L2 cache runs. My K6-225 with 8 mb Herc Thriller gets 36 fps when running with 5 to 8 AI cars and about half of GPL's graphics turned on, and 36 fps when running solo with most graphics turned on, both at 640x480. I find this quite acceptable. I have a P2-350 with 8 mb Hercules Thriller. I run at 800x600 with all graphics detail turned on and a full field of 19 AI cars. I get a solid 36 fps all the time, except when I come into a full pit lane, or at the start of a race. Worst case in that event is frame rate in the mid to high 20's. Yes, I can, and do so all the time. See above. Yes. F1RS is a very nice sim, but its physics are far, far less sophisticated than those of GPL. Once I spent a few hours in GPL, all other sims began to seem like toys to me, even F1RS. Now, someone has to twist my arm to get me to race in F1RS for even a little while. GPL is modeling the behavior of so many components of the car, in such meticulous detail, with such extreme precision, that it takes far, far more CPU power than any previous sim. However, the end result is incredible. On a machine capable of running it properly, GPL produces vehicle behavior of uncanny realism. If you are into racing sims, believe me, it's worth the relatively small investment to put together the hardware you need to run GPL well. For more details about hardware and GPL, see the hardware FAQ on my new GPL web site: http://nh.ultranet.com/~alison/gpl/ Alison Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. http://www.nh,ultranet.com/~alison

>Damn, really? Does Papy seriously think that we can have fun racing against >5 AI opponents for an hour? I mean, do they really think that? Do _YOU_ really think you can handle the hardware for it ? Geeze, it's soo funny.. People are like "The game doesn't run fast on my PC ! Oh the humanity !" Welcome to the *** world. Upgrade or they won't wait for you. It's the reality. It's not cheap to play games over a PC. We should all know that (Just spent over 500$ in 1 month for it, quite an expensive hobby !). Anyone remembers Gp2 here ?? It took 3years and it's EVEN not able to run full graphics + everything in SVGA at Monaco with 25fps everywhere (probably even not on PII 450 at the back of the grid using the side-car camera). Anyone remembers how PC hog Nascar Racing 1 was on your 486 ?? That those SVGA graphics really slowed it down when you used the grass/asphalt texture ?? I mean... <g> it's not like it's a new thing. It's the whole demand/offer economy. People want more realistic racing physics engines, but the hardware/software can't catch up for that. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

The date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 05:42:08 GMT; The message.....

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>>Would this be a good time to resume that thread about 'previewing' >>via warez? >Interesting point, considering that the warez version actually played >so much smoother than even the final beta or the legitimate demo did. >I'm off to buy the game tomorrow. Warez actually got Sierra a sale, >since the performance of the demo on my machine would never have >convinced me to buy the sim.

I think I'll save this post to disk then bring it out every time someone dumbs a pre-alpha release of any other product.

I am a huge GPL fan. You couldn't have designed a game that better suits what I would like to see in a racing sim. I have no problem with hardware requirements advancing over time--especially when the result is better sim. accuracy like we have with GPL. BUT DON'T LIE ABOUT WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ENJOY ALL THIS SOPHISTICATION. People deserve to know that your minimum requirements will run only the menus. People deserve to know that so long as they have a great 3dfx or Rendition card, running with full or almost full graphics options results in a very minimal frame rate hit. People deserve to know that to play the game as it is intended, advertised and described on the box (i.e., racing), you need a P2-450 or equivalent CPU to process the AI. I am disappointed that the requirement is so high, but we have seen this before with "latest" games. I am absolutely outraged that Papyrus has sunk to the level of many of your bald-faced lying software producing colleagues. I expected more and I guess we can both decide whether that was delusional on my part. Marc.

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>Since it's the additional AI cars and not graphics options that cause >the slow down your system I think you've answered your own question... >- Eric >>Is GPL's AI engine and physics engine so advanced, that it takes so >>much processing power to run it?

>Welcome to the *** world. Upgrade or they won't wait for you. Are you dense or what? (Don't bother answering that, rhetorical question). The guy complaining about 10 fps has a "PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2". If he's getting 10 fpf on that kind of powerhouse it really is a joke, no one will be able to run this game. Joe

The date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 19:41:00 GMT; The message.....

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>>Welcome to the *** world. Upgrade or they won't wait for you. >Are you dense or what? (Don't bother answering that, rhetorical >question). >The guy complaining about 10 fps has a "PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2". >If he's getting 10 fpf on that kind of powerhouse it really is a joke, >no one will be able to run this game. >Joe

If that is the case he probably built the system board himself! :o)

I have a p2 333 OC 400 100 ON A ABIT BX 6. 128 mg ram except some of the mirror stuff. I am seeing around 35 most of the time slows to around 24 with alot of other cars. I think the 100 mhz fs bus must help. Regards, Michael

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>On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 20:15:29 GMT, >>The date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 19:41:00 GMT; >>The message..... >>>>Welcome to the *** world. Upgrade or they won't wait for you. >>>Are you dense or what? (Don't bother answering that, rhetorical >>>question). >>>The guy complaining about 10 fps has a "PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2". >>>If he's getting 10 fpf on that kind of powerhouse it really is a joke, >>>no one will be able to run this game. >>>Joe >>If that is the case he probably built the system board himself! :o) >Not true. I have a PII-333 o/c 5x75=375, Voodoo II 8MB, 64MB, ABIT LX6 >on a well tuned system. With all details on and full field, the sim is

basically

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>unplayable. >I would suspect that 10fps would be the case if more than 2 or 3 cars were >in view while running a full field race. >I don't run full field races. >-- >* rrevved at some ISP which calls itself mindspring dot com *

>I have a p2 333 OC 400 100 ON A ABIT BX 6. 128 mg ram >except some of the mirror stuff. I am seeing around 35 most of the >time slows to around 24 with alot of other cars. >I think the 100 mhz fs bus must help. I don't think the 100 mhz bus is helping, (although it can't hurt) since I don't have one, and get about the same fps as you do. :-) I'm running a P2-333 (not OC) with 128 mb ram, and a single V2 card. I average 33 fps probably 95% of the time. I also turned off some of the mirror details as well. Granted I only have about 2hrs maybe a bit more into the game, so I might find a low spot along the way. Andy

rrevved, I've been following this frame-rate thread and thought I'd throw in my two. I cranked up a short intermediate race at Monaco just to see what transpired. Grand Prix model, realistic damage, full (and I mean full!) detail at 800x600 on an 8meg Monster2, Dell R400 w/128 megs, 19 AI cars. The rate dropped to 11-12fps at the start, during which time there was a brief backup of the field. Rate climbed to the low 20s after about 3-6 seconds and stayed there until the field untangled, at which point the rate climbed to the high 20s and up. There it stayed for the 5 laps I ran (maybe because most of the field was waaayy out of sight <g>), until I blew up. I did experience momentary drops in rate while being lapped, but nothing below about 25fps, and nothing that was really very noticeable. (Actually stayed in the low 30's most of the time no other cars were in sight, and sometimes even if 2-3 were.) GPL keeps the rate high enough on my rig for me to be able to say that it has the best feel by far of any racing sim I've ever experienced, including Ubi's F1RS--and that's saying a lot, especially since I don't have to sacrifice any of the "goodies". Looks like Sierra's become a player again. Great job. Jerry Morelock

Not really. While a full field and full detail pulls down my Dell R400 and Monster2 8meg down briefly at the start of Monaco at 800x600, it's quite playable--not anything like GP2, which I've tried on this same rig, BTW. Unlike several in this group, I thought GP2 sucked on the p133 outfit I had when I bought it due to it's wildly fluctuating frame rates---and it still sucks on this rig. GPL "feels" right, but without a top end machine I'd say one would have to sacrifice so much in the way of details to attain fluidity of motion that it's "feel" would probably then be lost. Simply, GPL on a machine able to run it is the best driving sim I've ever experienced. Jerry Morelock . >Ouch! It's starting to sound like GP2 when it was released - everyone >will have to wait 2-3 for hardware that can actually run GPL! >Joe

<snip> <snip> Man I love this whole 300A deal. It's just wierd! BTW, did you also get some RAM? Of course you did :) rob.

> BUT DON'T LIE ABOUT WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ENJOY ALL THIS SOPHISTICATION. > People deserve to know that your minimum requirements will run only the > menus. Hi Marc, I know where you're coming from, and I agree to a certain extent, but I can tell you that the game runs very smoothly (at max framerate with 19 AI opponents) on my PII-300. So it's not a 450...and that's not your point. Maybe Papy should state a P2 as a "recommended" platform...I don't know where the bottom end is...anybody with a Socket 7 Pentium able to run full AI with 36 fps? -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

>Not true. I have a PII-333 o/c 5x75=375, Voodoo II 8MB, 64MB, ABIT LX6 >on a well tuned system. With all details on and full field, the sim is basically >unplayable. Ouch! It's starting to sound like GP2 when it was released - everyone will have to wait 2-3 for hardware that can actually run GPL! Joe

You are right that wasn't my point, but just for comparison what set-up are you using? What graphics card(s) and graphics options? It never drops below 36 FPS? If it does, how low does it go? Thanks, Marc.

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>> BUT DON'T LIE ABOUT WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ENJOY ALL THIS SOPHISTICATION. >> People deserve to know that your minimum requirements will run only the >> menus. >Hi Marc, >I know where you're coming from, and I agree to a certain extent, but >I can tell you that the game runs very smoothly (at max framerate with >19 AI opponents) on my PII-300. >So it's not a 450...and that's not your point. Maybe Papy should state >a P2 as a "recommended" platform...I don't know where the bottom end >is...anybody with a Socket 7 Pentium able to run full AI with 36 fps? >-- >Neil Yeatman >Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

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>> BUT DON'T LIE ABOUT WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ENJOY ALL THIS SOPHISTICATION. >> People deserve to know that your minimum requirements will run only the >> menus. >Hi Marc, >I know where you're coming from, and I agree to a certain extent, but >I can tell you that the game runs very smoothly (at max framerate with >19 AI opponents) on my PII-300. >So it's not a 450...and that's not your point. Maybe Papy should state >a P2 as a "recommended" platform...

Actually, they do. On Papyrus' website, the specs for the recommended system include a PII-266. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Which you'll also find printed on the bottom of the box as well as in the readme. - Eric

I've got to second Alison's comments. See my own post on GPL performance on a K6-225. Last night I checked my frame rates, and with all graphics on except mirror textures, and cars and track only in mirrors, I got 16-23 fps with a full field, mainly around 18-19, dropping only slightly when other cars were around. In the pits, I got 10-12, and on the start, the frame rate began around 11 and climbed steadily as everyone approached the first turn. Turning more graphics off didn't affect the frame rate nearly as much as reducing the field - going down to 10 opponents, frame rates rose to the mid to high 20s. Still much more playable than GP2, which I still can't get to <100% CPU load without turning most of the graphics off. I also took Alison's advice and tried out the Coventry rather than the Lotus. The improvement in handling was quite noticeable, though I was slower than everyone else on the track :) Michael Knepher

Eric, The bottom of the box does not tell anyone what is required to race as opposed to drive in training mode. Everyone assumes that graphics options will affect framerate and will need to be adjusted accordingly. They may not be aware how little effect that has in GPL. I can set my graphics to look worse than ICR2 and it's the still the Ai that kills the framerate. Astonishingly, Steve Smith is bluntly honest about this and many other aspects of the game in the included Strategy Guide (I just got my official copy of the game today, so I had not yet seen this). All I am saying, and I won't keep repeating it, is that a precis of his hardware requirements should be on the outside of the box--where people can see it before they buy (usually unreturnable software). GPL is a racing game (although it also great as a hot lapper) and presumably people are buying it to race. You are advertising and promoting it as a racing game. A third category called hardware required to run a full field race should be added to the minimum and preferred requirements. Equally important is an explanation of what the "minimum" requirements will get someone. I think you know it is a lot more minimum than any typical consumer/purchaser would expect, if you want to be honest about this. No aspect of the game other than the menus would be recognisable (see box cover, as you pointed out) on a minimum system (unless you wanted 3-5 fps). Obviously I am big fan, have been eagerly awaiting this game, and have just purchased it. But I would buy it anyway because I am a nut. However, if you relied on people like me to keep you afloat, this game wouldn't have ever seen the light of day. GPL is a tough enough sell in a day and age where the playstation mentality seems to rule. Don't offend and mislead Joe and Jane Average or, to use a Steve Smith phrase, "they will come back and bite you." Marc.

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>Which you'll also find printed on the bottom of the box as well as in >the readme. >- Eric >>Actually, they do. On Papyrus' website, the specs for the recommended >>system include a PII-266.

> You are right that wasn't my point, but just for comparison what set-up are > you using? > What graphics card(s) and graphics options? It never drops below 36 FPS? > If it does, how low does it go? Well, for the real specs: 4 meg Rendition V2200 AGP 12 meg Voodoo2 I get slightly different results with the two rendering engines. The V2200 is very nearly locked at 35-36 fps. No major slowdows at all at 640x480. Pit lane and start/finish hardly cause a hiccup. 800x600 gives me a lower framerate, and I don't like it. I keep anti-aliasing off because it does wacky things to distant objects. There is also a graininess to the overall image - the tracks often appear to be made of gravel. No idea whether this would be better with an 8 meg card. The Pure 3D II gives me slightly higher peak fps...36-37 whether at 640x480 or 800x600...so I run at 800 all the time. Image quality is IMHO better than the V2200 (no graininess), but that's also due to the higher resolution I can run. FPS drops to about 28 when running in traffic, and I've seen (very briefly) it go as low as 22-24 through the pits. I seem to get faster laptimes with the Voodoo2 - no explanation, as framerates are pretty much the same...I suppose I can "see" better at 800x600...but the car seems to "feel" better with the Voodoo2. -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Hey Cool people are comparing my Homebuilt K6-2 333 to a PII -450 neato...my sim runs pretty much 32FPS all the time except during the start and near the pits. INCREDIBLE GAME....ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE.... FERRARI PAPA DOC

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>People deserve to know that to play the game as it is intended, advertised >and described on the box (i.e., racing), you need a P2-450 or equivalent CPU >to process the AI. I am disappointed that the requirement is so high, but >we have seen this before with "latest" games. I am absolutely outraged that >Papyrus has sunk to the level of many of your bald-faced lying software >producing colleagues. I expected more and I guess we can both decide >whether that was delusional on my part. >Marc. >>Since it's the additional AI cars and not graphics options that cause >>the slow down your system I think you've answered your own question... >>- Eric >>>Is GPL's AI engine and physics engine so advanced, that it takes so >>>much processing power to run it?

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G> http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

At least in my opinion, then, you have the minimum set-up to actually race...if low 20's is the lowest you get. Marc. >> You are right that wasn't my point, but just for comparison what set-up are

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>> you using? >> What graphics card(s) and graphics options? It never drops below 36 FPS? >> If it does, how low does it go? >Well, for the real specs: > 4 meg Rendition V2200 AGP >12 meg Voodoo2 >I get slightly different results with the two rendering engines. >The V2200 is very nearly locked at 35-36 fps. No major slowdows at all >at 640x480. Pit lane and start/finish hardly cause a hiccup. 800x600 >gives me a lower framerate, and I don't like it. I keep anti-aliasing off

because it does wacky things to distant objects. There is also a

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>The bottom of the box does not tell anyone what is required to race as >opposed to drive in training mode. Everyone assumes that graphics options >will affect framerate and will need to be adjusted accordingly. They may >not be aware how little effect that has in GPL. I can set my graphics to >look worse than ICR2 and it's the still the Ai that kills the framerate. >Astonishingly, Steve Smith is bluntly honest about this and many other >aspects of the game in the included Strategy Guide (I just got my official >copy of the game today, so I had not yet seen this). All I am saying, and I >won't keep repeating it, is that a precis of his hardware requirements >should be on the outside of the box--where people can see it before they buy >(usually unreturnable software).

I agree completely that companies need to be honest about hardware requirements. And that Steve Smith did a better job than Sierra's box at defining what GPL needs. However, good software stores in the US do allow returns. (Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.) And Sierra does have a 30-day direct return policy in the US. 90% of computer games are utter crap. Buy only after seeing favorable end-user reviews and/or playing a demo. Even then, buy only where you can return the game if it doesn't work. Semantics as to the distinction between what "minimum" and "recommended" requirements give you in an incredibly great product like GPL are a pretty minor problem, in an industry where outright fraud (features listed on the box but not in the product, rebates that are never honored) is rampant. -- spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

> At least in my opinion, then, you have the minimum set-up to actually > race...if low 20's is the lowest you get. Yes...but only for VERY short periods of time. Most of the time it flies along at max FPS. -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

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> > Well, for the real specs: > > 4 meg Rendition V2200 AGP > > 12 meg Voodoo2 > > I get slightly different results with the two rendering engines. > This is almost my spec identically, I'm still waiting for the release here in > the UK. > Is the performance you quote in race conditions or training mode ?

Sorry Dave, That was with a full field of 19 opponents. I shouldn't have left that part out.. :) -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

I agree that Papyrus'/Sierra's transgression on this one is minor compared to all the awful dishonest fraudulent activities out there... But I don't measure my "friends" against the lowest common denominator available and Papyrus has a long an honoured history with many of us that results in, for me at least, higher expectations. Marc.

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>>The bottom of the box does not tell anyone what is required to race as >>opposed to drive in training mode. Everyone assumes that graphics options >>will affect framerate and will need to be adjusted accordingly. They may >>not be aware how little effect that has in GPL. I can set my graphics to >>look worse than ICR2 and it's the still the Ai that kills the framerate. >>Astonishingly, Steve Smith is bluntly honest about this and many other >>aspects of the game in the included Strategy Guide (I just got my official >>copy of the game today, so I had not yet seen this). All I am saying, and

I >>won't keep repeating it, is that a precis of his hardware requirements >>should be on the outside of the box--where people can see it before they buy

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>>(usually unreturnable software). >I agree completely that companies need to be honest about hardware >requirements. And that Steve Smith did a better job than Sierra's >box at defining what GPL needs. >However, good software stores in the US do allow returns. (Friends >don't let friends shop at Best Buy.) And Sierra does have a 30-day >direct return policy in the US. >90% of computer games are utter crap. Buy only after seeing >favorable end-user reviews and/or playing a demo. Even then, buy >only where you can return the game if it doesn't work. Semantics >as to the distinction between what "minimum" and "recommended" >requirements give you in an incredibly great product like GPL are >a pretty minor problem, in an industry where outright fraud >(features listed on the box but not in the product, rebates that >are never honored) is rampant. >-- >spamgard(tm): To email me, put "geek" in your Subject line.

% What good is it to have super AI, when you can not race against any of them. % I have a PII 333 OC to 375, voodoo2 and It still drop way down to less than % 10 FPS with full field. What type of computer did they make this game on. % It must be something we can't get or else they knew the FPS sucked and % released it anyway. At what resolution? I never see it drop below 19 (except for major accidents) at any resolution 800 or below (this is with a full field and 4 sounds, cars only in the mirrors) on my PII 300 with Voodoo2. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=